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Imam Ali As Burned People Who Said He Was A God?

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Salam Aleikum dear brothers and sisters.

I have heard that Imam Ali as burned some people, because they said he was a god. But isn't it haram to burn?

Al-qummi has a hadith about it. About Ibn Saba who get burned. But I heard it was weak.

Then what about the sunni sources? Why are they weak. Or is it true? Or what? I''m confused :P

Because sunni often uses this argument, to show that Imam Ali as is not infallible...

WS :-)

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I have heard that he used to kill people who called him God, couldn't he have just told them that they were wrong and asked them to get out?

come to think of it, what is the law for idol worshippers/ kafirs? is it wajib to kill them?

i like to think that he killed them because they had realized the ultimate truth and so they had no purpose left in this world.

please kill me maula! :cry:

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(bismillah)

(salam)

A good read:

Question:

There is a story that says that Imam Ali (a.s) put two men on fire because they said he was God. Is this true?

Answer:

The story of the burning of some criminals by Imam Ali (a.s.) is one of the Sunni fabrications against Imam Ali (a.s.). It is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari. Also Ibn Abil-Hadid (another Sunni historian) has mentioned the story. In our jurisprudence there is no punishment that involves the live burning of a criminal. This is rather a Jewish punishment as mentioned in the Old Testament, thus, narrations that relate it to Imam Ali (a.s.) are Israelites and fabricated.

Answered by: Sheikh Mansour Leghaei

Follow-up Question:

How can we know that the following ahadith are fabricated? I have a discussion with a Sunni. And we both want to “find the truth”. How can I know for sure, that this hadith is ridiculous. And how can I convince, that this hadith is a hadith we should not trust in? By the way, do you know books about this?

- Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 260

Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn ‘Abbas, who said, “Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’ ”

- Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 84 :: Hadith 57

Narrated ‘Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’” [07/22/2012 11:56:35 È.Ù] adraa.diya.ayoub

Answer:

Think about this: Ibn Abbas was a young boy at the time of the Prophet (P) (he was only 13 yrs old when the holy Prophet died), yet he remembers the Hadith of the Prophet, but Imam Ali who has been with the Prophet from his childhood and about whom the Prophet said: I am the city of knoweldge and Ali is its gate”, doesn’t know what the Prophet has said about punishing with fire?! Bukhari is well known for his animosity with Imam Ali and his children. Also, Ikrima; the narrator of the story, was one of the leaders of Khawarej who waged the battle of Nahrawan against Imam Ali (a.s). He has fabricated many ahadith and related them to Ibn Abbas.

Answered by: Sheikh Mansour Leghaei

Source

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Here is a SaHeeH hadeeth taken from Rijaal Al-Kashee, about the infamous `Abd Allaah bin Saba’.

ÍÏËäí ãÍãÏ Èä Þæáæíå¡ ÞÇá ÍÏËäí ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå¡ ÞÇá ÍÏËäÇ íÚÞæÈ Èä íÒíÏ æ ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ¡ Úä åÔÇã Èä ÓÇáã¡ ÞÇá : ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) íÞæá æ åæ íÍÏË ÃÕÍÇÈå ÈÍÏíË ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÓÈÅ æ ãÇ ÇÏÚì ãä ÇáÑÈæÈíÉ Ýí ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ¡ ÝÞÇá Åäå áãÇ ÇÏÚì Ðáß Ýíå ÇÓÊÊÇÈå ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÝÃÈì Ãä íÊæÈ ÝÃÍÑÞå ÈÇáäÇÑ.

From Hishaam bin Saalim said: I heard from Abaa `Abd Allaah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) and he said: “And he narrated from his companions the narration of `Abd Allaah bin Sabaa’ and he called (to people) the lordship/divinity of Ameer Al-Mumineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã). So he (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said: That Ameer Al-Mu’mineen ordered him to repent, but he refused. Then Ali let him burn in fire."

Source:

1. Al-Kashee, Rijaal Al-Kashee, pg. 107, hadeeth # 171

Úóáöíõø Èúäõ ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó Úóäú ÃóÈöíåö Úóäö ÇÈúäö ÃóÈöí ÚõãóíúÑò Úóäú åöÔóÇãö Èúäö ÓóÇáöãò Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÚóÈúÏö Çááóøåö Ú ÞóÇáó ÃóÊóì Þóæúãñ ÃóãöíÑó ÇáúãõÄúãöäöíäó Ú ÝóÞóÇáõæÇ ÇáÓóøáóÇãõ Úóáóíúßó íóÇ ÑóÈóøäóÇ ÝóÇÓúÊóÊóÇÈóåõãú Ýóáóãú íóÊõæÈõæÇ ÝóÍóÝóÑó áóåõãú ÍóÝöíÑóÉð æó ÃóæúÞóÏó ÝöíåóÇ äóÇÑÇð æó ÍóÝóÑó ÍóÝöíÑóÉð ÃõÎúÑóì Åöáóì ÌóÇäöÈöåóÇ æó ÃóÝúÖóì ãóÇ ÈóíúäóåõãóÇ ÝóáóãóøÇ áóãú íóÊõæÈõæÇ ÃóáúÞóÇåõãú Ýöí ÇáúÍóÝöíÑóÉö æó ÃóæúÞóÏó Ýöí ÇáúÍóÝöíÑóÉö ÇáúÃõÎúÑóì [äóÇÑÇð] ÍóÊóøì ãóÇÊõæÇ

A group came to Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), and they said: “Assalaamu `Alayka (Peace be upon you),O our Lord (rabbanaa)!So he asked for their repentance, but they did not repent.So he dug a ditch for them and lit a fire in it and dug a ditch to its other side and conveyed between them. So when they did not repent he threw them in the ditch and lit in the other ditch until they died.

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 258-259, hadeeth # 18

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 401

http://www.revivinga...e-in-islam.html

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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Ali_Hussain: As a lover of Ali (as) i am assuming you will look into this matter a little more with your scholarly approach and then post your findings on this thread?

Do we have a hadith that says you are not allowed to burn someone? Because if we do, then fine, you have a point, if not, why reject this just because in the context of sunni narrations it makes him (a) look bad.

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the hadeeth quoted doesn't make sense as they were calling him "our lord" which does not equate to Allah ( lord of the worlds)

i am curious if he had asked them to repent for calling him such or did he ask them to repent for their sins?

its not clear in the hadith

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Salam Aleikum dear brothers and sisters.

I have heard that Imam Ali as burned some people, because they said he was a god. But isn't it haram to burn?

Al-qummi has a hadith about it. About Ibn Saba who get burned. But I heard it was weak.

Then what about the sunni sources? Why are they weak. Or is it true? Or what? I''m confused :P

Because sunni often uses this argument, to show that Imam Ali as is not infallible...

WS :-)

Asalamalaykum my dear brother

Imam Ali (as) did undoubtly punish people with fire (clearly shown through narrations above). And it is haraam to punish someone with fire! Sounds weird huh? Well let's examine this!

Only Allah has the right to punish by fire greater sins chapter 53:

 Keeping Turbah with the corpse

 There was an adulteress who used to destroy her illegitimate issues by putting them in the oven for fear of her family members. Except for her mother no one knew of her misdeeds. When she died and people tried to bury her, the earth did not accept her and threw her out. When they tried to bury her at another place the same thing happened. The problem was presented to Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) and he asked her mother which sin she had committed. When the mother confessed, Imam (a.s.) said that earth would never accept her because she used to punish Allah’s creatures with the punishment that only Allah has the right to punish (That is, burning alive). Then Imam (a.s.) told them to place a little turbah in her grave. This was done and then the earth did not convulse when she was buried in it.

However in the same token Allah regulates the affairs:

 Say: Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth? Or Who controls the hearing and the sight? And Who brings forth the living from the dead, and brings forth the dead from the living? And Who regulates the affairs? Then they will say: Allah. Say then: Will you not then guard (against evil)? Qur’an 10:31

He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count. Qur’an 32:5

Yet we have an Ayah which states:

[shakir 79:5] Then THOSE who REGULATE the affair. (some interpret this as angels and others say its the imams (as) but thats reguardless because there is others besides Allah (swt) regulating the affairs)

When we ponder over this we can clearly see that Allah (swt) regulates the affairs through others but it is ultimately Allah (swt) doing it, likewise Allah (swt) punished people with fire through Imam Ali (as).

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Salamalaikum,

Imam ali a.s can punish the way he likes even if it is fire because he is the distributor of fire and heaven and that he is wali of Allah azwj and the act of wali is the act of Allah azwj.

Shame on them who believed him to be lord yet disobeyed him when he ordered to repent.

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Imam ali a.s can punish the way he likes even if it is fire because he is the distributor of fire and heaven

Sounds like a demigod?! That's so wrong.......

Even the Prophet(s) was not allowed to do whatever he liked. Whatever he did (in relation to the religion) was according to God's order. Burning someone alive is a very grave sin and so I believe that he never did it.

Exactly, well said.

Burning is a form of torture and we all know a true muslim isn't allowed to do so.

So yea, it gotta be fake

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Even the Prophet(s) was not allowed to do whatever he liked. Whatever he did (in relation to the religion) was according to God's order. Burning someone alive is a very grave sin and so I believe that he never did it.

This is extremely cruel and savage. I just hope the story is not true.

I agree. I think it's a fabrication by the haters of Ahlul bayt, and that is the evidence I'm searching for. Because all the hadiths about this incident are weak

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Assalamalaykum.

Whether the burning alive is a legitamate Islamic punishment by the Imam appointed by Allah (SWT) for those that claim that a human is the Creator of the Universe, i do not know. Imam Ali (as) was the most just after Rasulullah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå. According to Ahlesunna the caliphs used to seek rulings from Imam Ali (as) because of his justice, even though he opposed them in what they were doing.

If that is your definition of torture then obviously there will be torture in hell. Imam Ali (as) is the appointed successor of the final Messenger (SAWA) and the best of creation. Below is some hadith from authentic sunni sources, and beliefs that Imam Ali (as) had special knowledge of Islamic rulings from the Prophet (SAWA) and that according to Ahlesunna, the Prophet (SAWA) tortured people. We as Muslims have to safeguard the dignity of the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, but it becomes difficult to do that when so called 'Sahih' hadiths show him in the light the non-Muslim enemies of Islam want to see him in. That is why we have to disassociate with these compilations and unbrand the sahih.

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:

Narrated Abu Qilaba:

Anas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle ."

Sahih Muslim

Book 009, Number 3601:

Ibrahim al-Taimi reported on the authority of his father: 'Ali b. Abu Talib (Allah be pleased with him) addressed us and said: He who thinks that we (the members of the Prophet's family) read anything else besides the Book of Allah and this Sahifa (and he said that Sahifa was tied to the scabbard of the sword) tells a lie. (This Sahifa) contains (problems) pertaining to the ages of the camels and (the recompense) of the injuries, and it also records the words of the Prophet (may peace be upon him): Medina is a sacred territory from 'Ayr to Thaur (it is most probably Uhud). He who innovates (an act or practice) or gives protection to an innovator, there is a curse of Allah and that of His angels and that of the whole humanity upon him. Allah will not accdpt from him (as a recompense) any obligatory act or supererogatory act, and the responsibility of the Muslims is a joint responsibility; even the lowest in rank can undertake the responsibility (on behalf of others), and he who claims anyone else as his father besides his own father or makes one his ally other than the one (who freed him), there is a curse of Allah. that of His angels and that of the wholemankind upon him. Allah will not accept the obligatory act of the supererogatery act (as a recompense) from him.

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On Friday, September 14, 2012 at 4:14 PM, siraatoaliyinhaqqun said:

Salamalaikum,

Imam ali a.s can punish the way he likes even if it is fire because he is the distributor of fire and heaven and that he is wali of Allah azwj and the act of wali is the act of Allah azwj.

Shame on them who believed him to be lord yet disobeyed him when he ordered to repent.

So if I understand well only infaillibles could put to death people with fire ?

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If Ali had burnt ibn Saba then he must have also burnt his alleged disciples    yet we see ibn saba alleged disciples widely respected at that time and most even in later sunni sources ...

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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On 16/05/2017 at 7:13 PM, Panzerwaffe said:

If Ali had burnt ibn Saba then he must have also burnt his alleged disciples    yet we see ibn saba alleged disciples widely respected at that time and most even in later sunni sources ...

So you don't believe in this story? 

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