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Islam: Shia Twelver & Bohra Understanding Of Imams


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#76 Inquisitor

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:16 PM

sorry I didn't got your question.


My question was very simply put brother. I'll rephrase it: How do you know that the Sunnis are wrong in their beliefs?

#77 Mansur

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:56 PM

mansur sounds quite young and seems he has mistaken ithna asharis with wahabis, but any ways one member does not represent whole community, and bohras dont need any introductions, we are most loved and peaceful community in whole ISLAMIC sects.

btw we hold quraan,hadith and dua books in our house, and best thing is they dont contradict with each other like other sects of ISLAM, so we are quite sure and confident about our literature and sources.


I have not taken Ithnas as wahabis. I am just asking them that what is the authenticity of their hadiths. No one has been able to prove it. You are correct in the sence that one member really does not represent the entire community including both of us,right? :)

#78 iqbal_bohra

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:35 AM

Dear all participants,

It is quite interesting reading you all, but sometimes we are getting so harsh on each others, this should not be the way for fair discussion. Bohra being Fatimid have their tradition from their Imam that they lived in coexistence with all other communities and had respect for each other although differing in belief. Even at the time of their golden era of Fatimid caliphate, when they ruled a vast chunk of middle east and north Africa they never forced their faith on others.

One of our Sunni brother was asking for the difference we have and there were discussion on minority majority. Let me share one of my point of view that there is always dictatotorship of powerful prevailed. Abubakar has pressurized Ali to become silent, Maawia has overpowered Hasan and forced him to have treaty, Yezid forced Husain to sacrifice himself, Subsequent imam after Imam Jafer has to live in hiding against powerful Abbasid who were ruling at that time. Hence haque is always in pressure, and only minority remain with them as there were lot of atrocity from powerful rulers and only few who are rigid on Iman had survived with haque. We are in minority because Fatimid imam couldn’t survive after sunny Abbasid came in power there. Salladin destroyed everything . Fatimid remained only through Yemeni Dai and so we remain.

Sunni has not accepted Ali long back as they didn’t believe on words of Muhammad that ‘ Ali is moula of whom ,which I am moula’ and made Abubakar moula , hence ‘walayat’ is missing in Sunny from that time and without walayat muslim is only muslim but he is not mumeen as we, who still have walayat of ahle bayt and their representatives.

Ithna asharies also have walayat of ahle bayt, after imam Jafer they followed a different line but still they had true faith in their imam and ahle bayt but in present situation they are without single representative of Imam which breaks the link between Imam and a simple mumeen, which makes lot of difference in walayat principle.

We should not fight over hadish and their authenticity but get to true principles of Islam and use the information of imam how they lived as example to make us correct. We may correct ourselves as per modern need also but our ethics should remain same. We may not argue over who has written Daim-ul islam or from where it generated but important is what was the logic behind writing daimul islam and why it is to be followed.

Please read this information about Qadi Nauman who has written Daim-ul islam ;
http://www.bohra.net/archive/qadi.html.

His full name is Syedna Al-Qadi An-Nauman Abu Hanifa An-Nauman bin Abi Abdillah Mohammed bin Mansoor bin Hayun At-Tamimi Al-Maghribi. All that is known about his youth is that his father, Abu Abdillah Mohammed, passed away in Rajab-ul-asab 351 h. and Syedna Qadi Nauman himself performed the janaza namaz and buried him in Qairawan.
Many historians write various things. Some say he was Maliki. Some say he was Hanafi, but the truth is that due to the circumstances, he did not openly declare his religion and way of life in the initial stages of his life.
Whenever his revered name is brought upon the tongue, the image of a great being comes to mind, who served four Imams:
  • Maulana Mehdi (A.S.)
  • Maulana Qaim (A.S.)
  • Maulana Mansoor (A.S.)
  • Maulana Moiz (A.S.)
He began his Khidmat of these Imams in 297 h. and continued to do so until he passed away in 363 h. During the long duration of 66 years of his Khidmat, his Khidamaat took on countless aspects. Fighting for the Hidayat of Nufus, withstanding bloodshed to organize majalis and bayanaat, working hard to write his books, his very important business of judgement as Chief Justice, the honor of spending day and night in the company and travels of Imams. The Imams themselves molded his being so that he became such an outstanding personality, that he was a Faqih, orator, eloquent, critic, psychologist, historian, poet, writer, and a turbulent ocean of knowledge and art, all in one.
He has 44 books on Fiqh, history, Vaaz, and religious beliefs and Taweel, most of which are present today in the archives of Dawat. Especially Daim-ul-Islam, which Iran has incorporated into their constitution. It has been translated into many, many languages. In it, one can get a complete picture of the ordinances of Islam. He has explained the importance Islam has given to manners and etiquette along with Ibadat, giving references to Imams.
Imams have relied on Daim-ul-Islam'. In 391, Imam Hakim (A.S.) ordered his Dai Harun bin Mohammed in Yemen in a letter that "your decisions" must be made in light of Daim-ul-Islam'.

Qadi Nauman may be following anything in past but he had all association of Fatimid Imams . Imam were knowing that what is right and what is wrong of islam and Qadi Nauman accepted Imamat of Fatimid imam only due to imam’s wisdom and we all follow Daimul Islam and Iran has made it in their constitution due to the reason that it show us the true principles of Islam and imaan.
Regards,

Iqbal

#79 punjabishia

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:37 PM

Dear all participants,

It is quite interesting reading you all, but sometimes we are getting so harsh on each others, this should not be the way for fair discussion. Bohra being Fatimid have their tradition from their Imam that they lived in coexistence with all other communities and had respect for each other although differing in belief. Even at the time of their golden era of Fatimid caliphate, when they ruled a vast chunk of middle east and north Africa they never forced their faith on others.

One of our Sunni brother was asking for the difference we have and there were discussion on minority majority. Let me share one of my point of view that there is always dictatotorship of powerful prevailed. Abubakar has pressurized Ali to become silent, Maawia has overpowered Hasan and forced him to have treaty, Yezid forced Husain to sacrifice himself, Subsequent imam after Imam Jafer has to live in hiding against powerful Abbasid who were ruling at that time. Hence haque is always in pressure, and only minority remain with them as there were lot of atrocity from powerful rulers and only few who are rigid on Iman had survived with haque. We are in minority because Fatimid imam couldn’t survive after sunny Abbasid came in power there. Salladin destroyed everything . Fatimid remained only through Yemeni Dai and so we remain.

Sunni has not accepted Ali long back as they didn’t believe on words of Muhammad that ‘ Ali is moula of whom ,which I am moula’ and made Abubakar moula , hence ‘walayat’ is missing in Sunny from that time and without walayat muslim is only muslim but he is not mumeen as we, who still have walayat of ahle bayt and their representatives.

Ithna asharies also have walayat of ahle bayt, after imam Jafer they followed a different line but still they had true faith in their imam and ahle bayt but in present situation they are without single representative of Imam which breaks the link between Imam and a simple mumeen, which makes lot of difference in walayat principle.

We should not fight over hadish and their authenticity but get to true principles of Islam and use the information of imam how they lived as example to make us correct. We may correct ourselves as per modern need also but our ethics should remain same. We may not argue over who has written Daim-ul islam or from where it generated but important is what was the logic behind writing daimul islam and why it is to be followed.

Please read this information about Qadi Nauman who has written Daim-ul islam ;
http://www.bohra.net/archive/qadi.html.

His full name is Syedna Al-Qadi An-Nauman Abu Hanifa An-Nauman bin Abi Abdillah Mohammed bin Mansoor bin Hayun At-Tamimi Al-Maghribi. All that is known about his youth is that his father, Abu Abdillah Mohammed, passed away in Rajab-ul-asab 351 h. and Syedna Qadi Nauman himself performed the janaza namaz and buried him in Qairawan.
Many historians write various things. Some say he was Maliki. Some say he was Hanafi, but the truth is that due to the circumstances, he did not openly declare his religion and way of life in the initial stages of his life.
Whenever his revered name is brought upon the tongue, the image of a great being comes to mind, who served four Imams:

  • Maulana Mehdi (A.S.)
  • Maulana Qaim (A.S.)
  • Maulana Mansoor (A.S.)
  • Maulana Moiz (A.S.)
He began his Khidmat of these Imams in 297 h. and continued to do so until he passed away in 363 h. During the long duration of 66 years of his Khidmat, his Khidamaat took on countless aspects. Fighting for the Hidayat of Nufus, withstanding bloodshed to organize majalis and bayanaat, working hard to write his books, his very important business of judgement as Chief Justice, the honor of spending day and night in the company and travels of Imams. The Imams themselves molded his being so that he became such an outstanding personality, that he was a Faqih, orator, eloquent, critic, psychologist, historian, poet, writer, and a turbulent ocean of knowledge and art, all in one.
He has 44 books on Fiqh, history, Vaaz, and religious beliefs and Taweel, most of which are present today in the archives of Dawat. Especially Daim-ul-Islam, which Iran has incorporated into their constitution. It has been translated into many, many languages. In it, one can get a complete picture of the ordinances of Islam. He has explained the importance Islam has given to manners and etiquette along with Ibadat, giving references to Imams.
Imams have relied on Daim-ul-Islam'. In 391, Imam Hakim (A.S.) ordered his Dai Harun bin Mohammed in Yemen in a letter that "your decisions" must be made in light of Daim-ul-Islam'.

Qadi Nauman may be following anything in past but he had all association of Fatimid Imams . Imam were knowing that what is right and what is wrong of islam and Qadi Nauman accepted Imamat of Fatimid imam only due to imam’s wisdom and we all follow Daimul Islam and Iran has made it in their constitution due to the reason that it show us the true principles of Islam and imaan.
Regards,

Iqbal


Finally, something refreshing and scholarly in this section,
after those outbursts and screams of Ruwayd which had
little constructive value.

In addition, I like this scholarly fatimid piece from Iqbal, a Bohra
as compared to the aghakhani khojas who failed to answer
my questions on performance as compared to the Ithnasharis
and the model that Iran has demonstrated till now of a
successful working women, although many professional
iranian women are tricky and rude, ie bait and switch, in
the USA. I have come across a few professionals and then
distanced myself from their services.

Anyway, my Bohra friend, I do not believe in worship
of Qadi Nu'man or his book Daim al-Islam. If you did
not intend us to worship your figure or book, then bring
it out as a pdf in english so we can read it.

I call this kind of activity, of sneak previews by either
"promoting its worship ie shirk" or as "strip tease". Because, in religious
matters, such practices should be abhorred. Always come across as straightforward and honest and show your cards ie primary literature. Footnoted tafsir of such books is also preferred.

Why not bring it here as a pdf link so we can right away download
it and help our NUFUS to become one of the Mo'mineen?

#80 iqbal_bohra

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:39 AM

Finally, something refreshing and scholarly in this section,
after those outbursts and screams of Ruwayd which had
little constructive value.

In addition, I like this scholarly fatimid piece from Iqbal, a Bohra
as compared to the aghakhani khojas who failed to answer
my questions on performance as compared to the Ithnasharis
and the model that Iran has demonstrated till now of a
successful working women, although many professional
iranian women are tricky and rude, ie bait and switch, in
the USA. I have come across a few professionals and then
distanced myself from their services.

Anyway, my Bohra friend, I do not believe in worship
of Qadi Nu'man or his book Daim al-Islam. If you did
not intend us to worship your figure or book, then bring
it out as a pdf in english so we can read it.

I call this kind of activity, of sneak previews by either
"promoting its worship ie shirk" or as "strip tease". Because, in religious
matters, such practices should be abhorred. Always come across as straightforward and honest and show your cards ie primary literature. Footnoted tafsir of such books is also preferred.

Why not bring it here as a pdf link so we can right away download
it and help our NUFUS to become one of the Mo'mineen?


Thanks for your understanding. Sorry, I don't have soft copy link for the book available but I think it has English translation available on net which can be downloaded.

There were discussion on the writer of the book and its origin; hence I have narrated the information. I don't want that someone should worship anything; the book is not for worship but to get lesson how to live Islam and live better as you also desire.

Regards,

Iqbal

#81 jasir

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:49 AM

Where can i find the electronic copy of the Daim al Islam in English?

Edited by jasir, 23 October 2012 - 01:50 AM.


#82 Quranist

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:03 PM

Where can i find the electronic copy of the Daim al Islam in English?


here

http://dawoodi-bohra...hra_literature/

#83 jasir

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 10:32 PM

here

http://dawoodi-bohra...hra_literature/


The version of the Daim available on this site is in Hindi. I have got a copy of the Daim (in English translated by Poonawala) an electronic version would enable much quicker searches and reference checks.
I would even pay for it if it was available as an ebook somewhere.

#84 Fakhruddin

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:17 PM

Assalamwalekum
This is to all my Bohra Brothers.
Going through the post it seems that we have engaged in proving our self and our haque right.
Aliqadr Maula(TUS) has clearly mentioned in this Muharram Waaz, that mumineen should not engage or even go toward those, which may influence our aqida or mohabaat towards our maula.
If you think that by you giving answers other brothers would understand, then Maula would have given that raaz to you first only.
Also in this process many ignorant people are accusing and forgetting their manners in addressing our beliefs, hence we ourself our to blame for it.
I request all mumineen to seriously disengage and retire from this blog.

Abde Syedna

#85 Hussainiyat Zindabad

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

Assalamwalekum
This is to all my Bohra Brothers.
Going through the post it seems that we have engaged in proving our self and our haque right.
Aliqadr Maula(TUS) has clearly mentioned in this Muharram Waaz, that mumineen should not engage or even go toward those, which may influence our aqida or mohabaat towards our maula.
If you think that by you giving answers other brothers would understand, then Maula would have given that raaz to you first only.
Also in this process many ignorant people are accusing and forgetting their manners in addressing our beliefs, hence we ourself our to blame for it.
I request all mumineen to seriously disengage and retire from this blog.

Abde Syedna


Why do you choose to 'disengage' from the blog. The reality is, is that your false, corrupt aqeedah is based on nothing but mere fairy tales. As an ex-bohra, there is no such thing as 'Imam tayyeb' nor is there any reference to him.

The fatimid caliphs whom you consider to be 'Imams' did all sorts of oppression and were certainly not ma'soom.

If the so-called 'fatimid dawat' was true then why are you not inviting the people of the world towards this path? (In ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM)

I ask Allah, the most exalted, to put some sense into the misguided bohra followers who look like peasants, putting their hands before the 'maula' and not even thinking ONCE as to what they are doing.

May Allah sincerely guide you.
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#86 Asghar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:29 PM

The mentality seems similar to Ahmadis but at least they have their books published on the net and their teachings available.

#87 Perfectionist

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:16 PM

I have question - a bohri friend of mine recently got married and was complaining about being forced to pay so much money to his jumaat and the people who run it who demand cash salaams. He has often complained about all the money that his community has to pay for everything even when it comes to the burial of a family member.

This confuses me as (in my opinion) money is the root of evil and the work of shaitaan - so why is there so much focus on money in the bohri religion?

#88 azdarehussain

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:21 AM

Bohras have wrong perception what i believe

A/c to your above post , you wrote that you dont disclose your perception b]c of that killings and all that
its not logical Mr ," TRUTH NEVER DIES "
if your are true believer of God , God will never finish your generations ,
If you are right more will support you , no doubt how much anyone is killing your people , or finishing you generations , still you'll grow more and more rapidly as isna Asheris are growing , because if a person is right no doubt how much Evil people are opposing him , truth makes it way and he will soon be supported by more and more good people :)



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