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Is Imam Ali Infallible? Evidence From The Quran

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Åä ÇáÍãÏ ááå äÍãÏå æäÓÊÚíäå æäÓÊÛÝÑå¡ æäÚæÐ ÈÇááå ãä ÔÑæÑ ÃäÝÓäÇ æãä ÓíÆÇÊ ÃÚãÇáäÇ¡ ãä íåÏå Çááå ÝáÇ ãÖá áå æãä íÖáá ÝáÇ åÇÏí áå æÃÔåÏ Ãä áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå æÍÏå áÇ ÔÑíß áå æÃÔåÏ Ãä ãÍãÏ ÚÈÏå æÑÓæáå¡ Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÚáì Âáå æÕÍÈå ÃÌãÚíä¡ æÓáã ÊÓáíãÇ ßËíÑÇð

I would like to start by saying that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are NOT 100% authentic. This is a dangerous claim made by some ignorant Sunnis.

According to Sunnis, the Shia hadith literature is filled with fabricated hadiths and this is the reason why they are not used in intellectual debates. Unlike the Sunni literature, which is considered a vast branch of Islamic sciences. The Sunni hadith science is always backed by `Ilm ar-rijal (Science of Narrators) in which the hadith narrators are personally studied and scholars can reach a decsion to claim that a Hadith is Sahih or not, according to the credibility of the narrators. As well as Shia use continuously Sunni hadiths to try back their case, such as the Ghadeer Hadith and others. Unfortunately the hadiths are misinterpreted and sometimes cut in half.

So now, I will show you the refutation to the claim that Imam Ali and other Ahlulbayt members were infallible from the Holy Quran, and by using a verse Shia use commonly to defend their case.

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result." 4:59

Sheikh Adnan Ibrahim will explain it to you in just 2 minutes. Please watch. There is English subtitles.

How do you answer back to this point ??

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O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

This is a quite clear verse, and I do not follow his logic at all. What is he trying to say? If we quarrel about anything it means that Imam Ali (as) is fallible? What a nonsensical idea!

Had Imam Ali (as) been fallible, then his enemies would be bringing in examples of his behaviour where he sinned, rather than trying mental gymnastics with Quran verses. But since they cannot point to any incident in his life which would negate his infallibility, they're fishing in muddy waters and trying to play with the low IQ of the Sunni masses.

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This is a quite clear verse, and I do not follow his logic at all. What is he trying to say? If we quarrel about anything it means that Imam Ali (as) is fallible? What a nonsensical idea!

Had Imam Ali (as) been fallible, then his enemies would be bringing in examples of his behaviour where he sinned, rather than trying mental gymnastics with Quran verses. But since they cannot point to any incident in his life which would negate his infallibility, they're fishing in muddy waters and trying to play with the low IQ of the Sunni masses.

It seems that you did not understand what the Sheikh was trying to say.

If you look at the verse like this:

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you..."

It clearly says that we should obey the above (highlighted in red above).

Then:

"... if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, ..."

We can understand that if we disagree, differ, conflict, argue, quarrel... ÊäÇÒÚÊã

However, IF we disagree, differ, conflict, argue, quarrel with those in authority among us

We should refer it to Allah and the Messenger

My point is:

IF Imam Ali was infallible and this verse is meant to address him and the rest of the Imams.

Why did not it say refer it to Allah and the Messenger and those in authority among us ???? To acknowledge that we should always get back to the Imams for accurate and divine information.

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^

Yeh nice try.

"If you quarrel about anything" is being addressed to "O you who believe" who are mean't to obey "Allah, the Messenger and those in authority amongst you". As for the part, "refer it to Allah and Messenger", that's because the religion and shariyat is that of the Messenger. Our Imams, though Infallible, followed it as well and always guided people to the religion/shariyat of the Messenger P.b.u.H.

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"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end."

The scholar in the video is interpreting the "you" in the italicized portion of the verse as referring to those in authority. If those in authority quarrel about anything among themselves, then we have a problem. You're first going to have prove that his interpretation of the latter part of the aya is correct, via Arabic grammar and most importantly, ahaadeeth. And THEN you are going to have to prove that those vested with authority ever quarreled about anything among themselves. Then that individual's argument can be brought forth. Other than that, he really is grasping at straws to even make this claim.

However, should the "you" in the aya be referring to the 'Umma quarreling with those vested with authority, how does that POSSIBLY lay a blame on the authority's infallibility? I hope this wasn't your argument.

My point is:

IF Imam Ali was infallible and this verse is meant to address him and the rest of the Imams.

Why did not it say refer it to Allah and the Messenger and those in authority among us ???? To acknowledge that we should always get back to the Imams for accurate and divine information.

Historical fact between Shi'a and Sunni universally agree the disputes, and more importantly, wars occurred over the decision of who should be the authority among us. There was clearly, no absolute consensus; in this respect, if a person who did not give bay'a to and/or did not believe in the assigned 'Imaam by Allaah (swt) he/she would have to refer to the other authorities which put the former in their place, i.e., Allaah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh). Essentially this is defending the A'imma (as) from the accusations placed by the bigots.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

One ayah that comes to mind to prove the wilayat of Ali ibn Abi Talib [as] is Surah 5 Verse 55

Sorry just wanted to add some Sahih Sunni Hadith that confirm this is about Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) :

  1. Tafsir Al Kabir, by Ahmed Ibn Mohammad Al Tha'labi, under 5:55
  2. Tafsir Al Kabir, by Ibn Jarir Al Tabari, Volume 6 page 186, 288-289
  3. Tafsir Jami'i Al Qur'an Al Hukam, by Mohammad Ibn Ahmed Qurtubi, Volume 6 page 219
  4. Tafsir Al Khazin, Volume 2 page 68
  5. Tafsir Al Durr Al Manthur, by Al Suyuti, Volume 2 page 293-294
  6. Tafsir Al Khashaf, by Al Zamakhshari, Voume 1 page 505, 649, Egyptian edition 1373
  7. Asbab Al Nazool, by Jalal Ad Deen Al Suyuti, Volume 1 page 73, Egyptian edition 1382 (Narrated on authority of Ibn Abbas)
  8. Asbab Al Nazool, by Al Wahidi
  9. Shahr Al Tijrid, by Allamah Qushji
  10. Ahkam Al Qur'an, by Al Jassas, Volume 2 page 542-543
  11. Musnad Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, Volume 5 page 38
  12. Kanz Al Ummal, by Al Muttaqi Al Hindi, Volume 6 page 391
  13. Al Awsat, by Al Tabarani (Narrated on authority of Ammar Ibn Yassir
  14. Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Volume 2 page 113-114, Beirut edition 1986
  15. Al Riyad Al Nadira, Volume 2 page 302
  16. Tafsir Al Manar, Volume 6 page 366
  17. Ibn Mardawayh (On narration of Ibn Abbas)
  18. Majma Al Zawa'id, Volume 7 page 17

All those are Sunni authentic sources too :)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Åä ÇáÍãÏ ááå äÍãÏå æäÓÊÚíäå æäÓÊÛÝÑå¡ æäÚæÐ ÈÇááå ãä ÔÑæÑ ÃäÝÓäÇ æãä ÓíÆÇÊ ÃÚãÇáäÇ¡ ãä íåÏå Çááå ÝáÇ ãÖá áå æãä íÖáá ÝáÇ åÇÏí áå æÃÔåÏ Ãä áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå æÍÏå áÇ ÔÑíß áå æÃÔåÏ Ãä ãÍãÏ ÚÈÏå æÑÓæáå¡ Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÚáì Âáå æÕÍÈå ÃÌãÚíä¡ æÓáã ÊÓáíãÇ ßËíÑÇð

I would like to start by saying that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are NOT 100% authentic. This is a dangerous claim made by some ignorant Sunnis.

According to Sunnis, the Shia hadith literature is filled with fabricated hadiths and this is the reason why they are not used in intellectual debates. Unlike the Sunni literature, which is considered a vast branch of Islamic sciences. The Sunni hadith science is always backed by `Ilm ar-rijal (Science of Narrators) in which the hadith narrators are personally studied and scholars can reach a decsion to claim that a Hadith is Sahih or not, according to the credibility of the narrators. As well as Shia use continuously Sunni hadiths to try back their case, such as the Ghadeer Hadith and others. Unfortunately the hadiths are misinterpreted and sometimes cut in half.

So now, I will show you the refutation to the claim that Imam Ali and other Ahlulbayt members were infallible from the Holy Quran, and by using a verse Shia use commonly to defend their case.

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result." 4:59

Sheikh Adnan Ibrahim will explain it to you in just 2 minutes. Please watch. There is English subtitles.

How do you answer back to this point ??

Assalaamo-Alaikum dear brother.

A very interesting question or challenge should I say. With all due respect towards the Sheikh, if he had seriously studied the Ayath and what’s relevant to it, then he wouldn’t have issued a challenge in the first place. It’s simple and straight forward, so lets get on with it.

Lets examine the Ayath bit by bit, “ Obey Allah “ Ok! What next??? “ And obey the Messenger “ Ok! Is that it??? NO! It goes on, “ Also those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you”. This is the actual translation and meaning of [Wa-Ulul-Amre-Minkum].

Firstly what you have mentioned is “ Those who are in authority amongst you “. This is not the right translation and meaning because people are different and they can come into authority through various means, with all kinds of intentions and thoughts.

Secondly once you are in power and hold authority things can change, by one going back on what they have said and promised, by not fulfilling their commitments and responsibilities. Power and authority can really bring about a negative change in one.

Thirdly why would Allah want us to obey, alongside him and his Messenger, someone who is a subject to [Rijs]??? Someone who is a subject to right as well as wrong, good as well as bad, true as well as false, a subject to sin etc.

Fourthly we have a sequence here that obey Allah who is infallible, then obey his Messenger who also is infallible, then obey those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you, who also should be infallible to complete the sequence.

Fifth the first two parties, Allah and his Messenger, are infallible then the third party not being infallible doesn’t make any sense. Why would Allah what us to obey a party, which isn’t infallible, alongside him and his Messenger who are infallible???

Sixth the next bit, “ And if you differ on anything “ Differ on anything regarding what??? This Ayath is connected to the previous one, that if you differ on anything, regarding those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you.

If you differ on anything regarding this [The Ulul Amre ], who are they??? If you have suspicion or are in doubt over anything regarding the Ulul Amre, then what??? Now comes the next bit “, Then refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger “.

They are who can erase your suspicion and get rid of your doubt, regarding who the Ulul Amre are. Who really are the ones who are worthy of being in authority amongst us. Amre means authority and Ulul means worthy.

If Allah had said “ Wa-Amre-Minkum “, then this would mean “ and those who are in authority amongst you “, but Allah has said “ Wa-Ulul-Amre-Minkim “, meaning “ And those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you “.

Wassalaam.

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It seems that you did not understand what the Sheikh was trying to say.

If you look at the verse like this:

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you..."

It clearly says that we should obey the above (highlighted in red above).

Then:

"... if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, ..."

We can understand that if we disagree, differ, conflict, argue, quarrel... ÊäÇÒÚÊã

However, IF we disagree, differ, conflict, argue, quarrel with those in authority among us

We should refer it to Allah and the Messenger

My point is:

IF Imam Ali was infallible and this verse is meant to address him and the rest of the Imams.

Why did not it say refer it to Allah and the Messenger and those in authority among us ???? To acknowledge that we should always get back to the Imams for accurate and divine information.

Let me just quote what you have said " How ever if we disagree, differ, conflict, argue, quarrel with those in authority among us ", why would you do this when Allah has clearly said " OBEY those who are in authority amongst you "??? Obey them just as you obey Allah and his Messenger. If you disagree, differ, conflict, argue and quarel with those who are in authority amongst you, then you have disobeyed Allah and his Messenger, because Allah is asking you to obey them just as you obey him and his Messenger. You have gone completely off track and entirely into a different direction, regarding this Ayath and what is relevant to it. This is exactly what happens when you misunderstand something.

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Assalaamo-Alaikum dear brother.

A very interesting question or challenge should I say. With all due respect towards the Sheikh, if he had seriously studied the Ayath and what’s relevant to it, then he wouldn’t have issued a challenge in the first place. It’s simple and straight forward, so lets get on with it.

Lets examine the Ayath bit by bit, “ Obey Allah “ Ok! What next??? “ And obey the Messenger “ Ok! Is that it??? NO! It goes on, “ Also those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you”. This is the actual translation and meaning of [Wa-Ulul-Amre-Minkum].

Firstly what you have mentioned is “ Those who are in authority amongst you “. This is not the right translation and meaning because people are different and they can come into authority through various means, with all kinds of intentions and thoughts.

Secondly once you are in power and hold authority things can change, by one going back on what they have said and promised, by not fulfilling their commitments and responsibilities. Power and authority can really bring about a negative change in one.

Thirdly why would Allah want us to obey, alongside him and his Messenger, someone who is a subject to [Rijs]??? Someone who is a subject to right as well as wrong, good as well as bad, true as well as false, a subject to sin etc.

Fourthly we have a sequence here that obey Allah who is infallible, then obey his Messenger who also is infallible, then obey those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you, who also should be infallible to complete the sequence.

Fifth the first two parties, Allah and his Messenger, are infallible then the third party not being infallible doesn’t make any sense. Why would Allah what us to obey a party, which isn’t infallible, alongside him and his Messenger who are infallible???

Sixth the next bit, “ And if you differ on anything “ Differ on anything regarding what??? This Ayath is connected to the previous one, that if you differ on anything, regarding those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you.

If you differ on anything regarding this [The Ulul Amre ], who are they??? If you have suspicion or are in doubt over anything regarding the Ulul Amre, then what??? Now comes the next bit “, Then refer the matter to Allah and his Messenger “.

They are who can erase your suspicion and get rid of your doubt, regarding who the Ulul Amre are. Who really are the ones who are worthy of being in authority amongst us. Amre means authority and Ulul means worthy.

If Allah had said “ Wa-Amre-Minkum “, then this would mean “ and those who are in authority amongst you “, but Allah has said “ Wa-Ulul-Amre-Minkim “, meaning “ And those who are worthy of being in authority amongst you “.

Wassalaam.

(salam)

Dear Brother, your reply is by far the best as you seem to understand what I have said. I will reply your proposed points.

1) The right translation for Oly Alamr is 'those who have power invested in them'. Meaning those who have received the legitimacy. And at the beginning of the verse, the speech is directed towards the Believers [O you who have believed...].

2) I agree that the way to reach power is important [And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.] 42:38. As for what happened in Saqifah, the Muhajeroon were overtaken by surprise to know that the Ansar were meeting to choose a Khalipha, and they rushed to the Saqifah, it was not a conspiracy to steal the position. I know Imam Ali (as) was not there, I think it was a strategic mistake of the Sahaba, but as I said before, they were taken by surprise and they agreed to give bayat to Abu Bakr (ra).

3) We believe that people are infallible, including Imams. And we are supposed to obey the leaders as long as they follow the Quran and Sunnah. That is why Allah (SWT) said: [... And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, ...] 4:59 . The speech is directed to [you]? As I said before, it is towards the believers. And Allah (SWT) assumed that a disagreement will occur, and still said to refer to Allah (SWT) and the Prophet (SAAAS) only, because if 'those who have power invested in them' are infallible, we should then refer to them directly. However it is not mentioned in the verse.

4) Also, you have said that why Allah (SWT) would want us to follow someone who is subject to Rijs. I reply here that Shia's assumed the infallibility just by the Purification verse 33:33, however this verse is subjected towards Ahl Al Kisa only (The Prophet (SAAAS), Imam Ali (as), Fatema (as), and Hasan (as) and Hussien (as)).

Assume that I accept the infallibility of those, how do you expect me to assume that 9 other Imams are also purified in the same way, and knowing that they are from Hussien's (as) lineage?

At this point, there is verse nor no Sahih Hadith that justifes the infallibility of 9 other Imams.

5) Because we are only supposed to follow the leaders and obey them when they are following the Holy Quran and the Sunnah. Other than that, we should not.

6) And if we differ on anything, it is very clear that is it an unlimited statement, not just the Oly Alamr. And assuming we differ on them, we should follow the Quran in [... and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves...] 42:38

7+8+9) I think your translation of Oly is wrong. I have checked it in an Arabic Dictionary (ãÚÌã) and it is rougly translated to THOSE, and I can give an example of Oly from the Quran, and check how the word is translated. It is mentioned several times.

[so when the [time of] promise came for the first of them, We sent against you servants of Ours - those of great military might, and they probed [even] into the homes, and it was a promise fulfilled.] 17:5

And Allah (SWT) knows best.

(wasalam)

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(salam)

Dear Brother, your reply is by far the best as you seem to understand what I have said. I will reply your proposed points.

1) The right translation for Oly Alamr is 'those who have power invested in them'. Meaning those who have received the legitimacy. And at the beginning of the verse, the speech is directed towards the Believers [O you who have believed...].

2) I agree that the way to reach power is important [And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.] 42:38. As for what happened in Saqifah, the Muhajeroon were overtaken by surprise to know that the Ansar were meeting to choose a Khalipha, and they rushed to the Saqifah, it was not a conspiracy to steal the position. I know Imam Ali (as) was not there, I think it was a strategic mistake of the Sahaba, but as I said before, they were taken by surprise and they agreed to give bayat to Abu Bakr (ra).

3) We believe that people are infallible, including Imams. And we are supposed to obey the leaders as long as they follow the Quran and Sunnah. That is why Allah (SWT) said: [... And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, ...] 4:59 . The speech is directed to [you]? As I said before, it is towards the believers. And Allah (SWT) assumed that a disagreement will occur, and still said to refer to Allah (SWT) and the Prophet (SAAAS) only, because if 'those who have power invested in them' are infallible, we should then refer to them directly. However it is not mentioned in the verse.

4) Also, you have said that why Allah (SWT) would want us to follow someone who is subject to Rijs. I reply here that Shia's assumed the infallibility just by the Purification verse 33:33, however this verse is subjected towards Ahl Al Kisa only (The Prophet (SAAAS), Imam Ali (as), Fatema (as), and Hasan (as) and Hussien (as)).

Assume that I accept the infallibility of those, how do you expect me to assume that 9 other Imams are also purified in the same way, and knowing that they are from Hussien's (as) lineage?

At this point, there is verse nor no Sahih Hadith that justifes the infallibility of 9 other Imams.

5) Because we are only supposed to follow the leaders and obey them when they are following the Holy Quran and the Sunnah. Other than that, we should not.

6) And if we differ on anything, it is very clear that is it an unlimited statement, not just the Oly Alamr. And assuming we differ on them, we should follow the Quran in [... and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves...] 42:38

7+8+9) I think your translation of Oly is wrong. I have checked it in an Arabic Dictionary (ãÚÌã) and it is rougly translated to THOSE, and I can give an example of Oly from the Quran, and check how the word is translated. It is mentioned several times.

[so when the [time of] promise came for the first of them, We sent against you servants of Ours - those of great military might, and they probed [even] into the homes, and it was a promise fulfilled.] 17:5

And Allah (SWT) knows best.

(wasalam)

Assalaamo-Alaikum dear brother. Thank you for your response. Lets stick with your version for a minute. " Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, also those who are in authority amongst you ". Why didn't Allah say directly that " Obey those who are in authority amongst you " ??? Why did Allah start off from himself and then mentioned his Messenger, when the obedience towards these two is already proven and is a must in Islam???

Because Allah wanted to put the seriousness and importance in his message, which is " Obey those who are in authority amongst you ". This is why Allah started off from himself, then went on to his Messenger and then mentioned his message of what he wants and expects from us and that is to " Obey those who are in authority amongst us ".

It is crystal clear by what Allah has said and the way he chose to say it and the sequence he has put forward that to " Obey those who are in authority amongst us " is just as valuable and important as to " Obey Allah and his Messenger ". Otherwise Allah could have chosen to say it straight forward that " Obey those who are in authority amongst you " but the method and sequence he used to say tells us a different thing, that this obedience is just as valuable and imortant as the other two.

Now if Allah has said " Obey those who are in authority amongst you ", then it would be absolutely ridiculous to differ, with those who are in authority amongst us, at all levels since this would come into disobedience and a direct violation of Allah's command.

To be continued!

Wassalaam!

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ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æ ÑÍãÉ Çááå æ ÈÑßÇÊå - Peace be upon you as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...

æ áÕáÇÉ æ ÇáÓáÇã Úáì ÎíÑ ÎáÞ Çááå æ ÍÈíÈ ÞáæÈäÇ¡ ÇáÑÓæá ãÍãÏ¡ æ Âáå ÇáØíÈíä ÇáØÇåÑíä - And may the Prayers and Peace be upon the Best of Allah's Creations, the beloved of our hearts, the Messenger Muhammad as well as his Generous and Pure Family...

æ áÚäÉ Çááå ÇáÏÇÆãÉ Úáì ÃÚÏÇÁåã æ ÙÇáãíåã æ ÇáÊÇÈÚíä Úáì Ðáß ãä ÇáÃæáíä Åáì ÇáÂÎÑíä - And may the permanent curse of Allah be upon their enemies and their oppressors and those who follow the trend from the first ones to the last ones...

ÚÙã Çááå ÃÌÑäÇ æ ÃÌÑßã ÈãÕÇÈäÇ ÈÐßÑÉ ÔåÇÏÉ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä æ ÓíÏ ÇáæÕííä ÇáÅãÇã Úáí ÅÈä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã - May Allah increase our good deeds and yours by our loss for the remembrance of the martyrdom of Prince of the Believers, the Master of the Successors, Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib peace be upon him...

Is it me that only think that Adnan Ibrahim thought that the Shia believe the Imams get revelations?

The only person who set up the islamic legislation is the Messenger Muhammad -pbuh&hf-... And the Infallible Imams -pbut- are just infallible in applying the same legislation, aka the legislation of their master, the Messenger -saaws-...

Yes the Imams are Infallible by following the word of Allah almighty, and the Sunnah of the Messenger -pbuh&hf-, so the Imams -pbut- are repeating the same words of the Messenger -saaws- if you prefer so regarding whatever subject it is... So whatever disaggreement that is put forward is to be refered to Allah almighty and his Messenger -pbuh&hf-...

Þæá æ ÝÚá ÇáÅãÇã ÇáãÚÕæã (Ú) åæ äÝÓ Þæá æ ÝÚá ÑÓæá Çááå (Õ) ãËá ÓäÏ ÕÍíÍ ÅÐÇ ÊÝÖá

The words and actions of the Infallible Imam -pbuh- is the same words and actions of the Messenger -pbuh&hf-, or like having an authentic chain of hadith if you prefer

Is it me or was it so easy to be answered?

I've got other observations to the Opening Poster... If you apply this verse to Umar, would you think he would refer to Allah almighty and his Messenger -pbuh&hf-?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPbBDBpUcX8

I guess Umar was doing his best to spread the hadiths and the sunnah of the Messenger -pbuh&hf-... Errr... let me get that phrase right...

æ Úáíßã ÇáÓáÇã æ ÑÍãÉ Çááå æ ÈÑßÇÊå - And upon you be Peace as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...

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Asalaam alaikum.

Infallibility of the Prophets is verified according to the Holy Quran since they were meant to be the guides for the people, if the Imams of the Shia were meant to be the guides like the Prophets as they (shia) claim, then don't you think the infallibility of the Imams would have been clearly laid down?

Well If the Imamat is not clear but rather vague then I guess the results would be same for the issue of infallibility.

Has one one got clear evidences from the Quran or Hadeeths about the issue of infallibility of the Shia Imams?

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Asalaam alaikum.

Infallibility of the Prophets is verified according to the Holy Quran since they were meant to be the guides for the people, if the Imams of the Shia were meant to be the guides like the Prophets as they (shia) claim, then don't you think the infallibility of the Imams would have been clearly laid down?

Well If the Imamat is not clear but rather vague then I guess the results would be same for the issue of infallibility.

Has one one got clear evidences from the Quran or Hadeeths about the issue of infallibility of the Shia Imams?

Assalaamo-Alaikum. The points you have raised have been put forward and discussed in great detail many times over. There are many threads on this site, which you can check out, that give a clear explanation about your points. Point 1, The infallibility of the Imaams has been clearly laid down, but if some people find it difficult to understand and hard to digest, then that is a different matter. Point 2, Imaamath is absolutely crystal clear and has got nothing to do with being rather vague. Point 3, There is absolutely and definately crystal clear evidence from Quran and Hadiths, regarding Imaamath and infallibility. Check out the threads!

Wassalaam!

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^

Yeh nice try.

"If you quarrel about anything" is being addressed to "O you who believe" who are mean't to obey "Allah, the Messenger and those in authority amongst you". As for the part, "refer it to Allah and Messenger", that's because the religion and shariyat is that of the Messenger. Our Imams, though Infallible, followed it as well and always guided people to the religion/shariyat of the Messenger P.b.u.H.

Not a nice try.

After the Messenger of Allah, deen was changed by evil companions, you forgot that?

Hadiths were fabricated by Omaiyads, remember?

Now Sunnah is not in its 'real form', so you have to look at Imam Ali and the rest for guidance?? Right?

But here's a contradiction, as usual!!

Quran says if you disagree on something, don't go to Imam Ali (Ulil Amr??) instead refer to Allah and His Messenger.

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Not a nice try.

After the Messenger of Allah, deen was changed by evil companions, you forgot that?

Hadiths were fabricated by Omaiyads, remember?

Now Sunnah is not in its 'real form', so you have to look at Imam Ali and the rest for guidance?? Right?

But here's a contradiction, as usual!!

Quran says if you disagree on something, don't go to Imam Ali (Ulil Amr??) instead refer to Allah and His Messenger.

lol brother, firstly don't bother calling the Umayyads companions, they weren't. And we have the skills, and the system, and the science to see which types of Hadith are Sahih and which are Dha'eef. And what's the point of going to the Ulil Amr Minkum, if the Sunnis don't accept him, we can only refer to Allah (Or his Kitab, the Qur'an), or the Prophet (And his Sunnah and life) to answer the disagreements between us..

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lol brother, firstly don't bother calling the Umayyads companions, they weren't. And we have the skills, and the system, and the science to see which types of Hadith are Sahih and which are Dha'eef. And what's the point of going to the Ulil Amr Minkum, if the Sunnis don't accept him, we can only refer to Allah (Or his Kitab, the Qur'an), or the Prophet (And his Sunnah and life) to answer the disagreements between us..

But your man-made system to check which hadiths are sahih and which are daeef is not an infallible system. Why don't you ask your infallible imams to tell what is sahih and what is not? Why rely on fallible scholars?

Bro, actually the verse above says when you differ then consult Quran and the Messenger. It doesn't ask to refer to the Ulil Amr (Imam or whatever). So the shia imams according to this verse are not infallible. If they were infallible, Quran would include them to the list of those to be referred in case of disagreement.

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But your man-made system to check which hadiths are sahih and which are daeef is not an infallible system. Why don't you ask your infallible imams to tell what is sahih and what is not? Why rely on fallible scholars?

Bro, actually the verse above says when you differ then consult Quran and the Messenger. It doesn't ask to refer to the Ulil Amr (Imam or whatever). So the shia imams according to this verse are not infallible. If they were infallible, Quran would include them to the list of those to be referred in case of disagreement.

When you differ??? Differ in what and differ with who??? Care to elaborate??? For argumental reasons lets stick with your version, that Shia Imaams are not infallible for the reason you have given, then what about " Obey those who are in authority amongst you "??? Those people who did not obey the ones who were in authority, what is your opinion and verdict on them, disregarding Allah's command???? Since you keep yapping on about just one thing, how about moving on to the next??? Care to elaborate??? Or are we too afraid of getting into an open discussion????

Edited by Ameen

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ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æ ÑÍãÉ Çááå æ ÈÑßÇÊå - Peace be upon you as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...

æ áÕáÇÉ æ ÇáÓáÇã Úáì ÎíÑ ÎáÞ Çááå æ ÍÈíÈ ÞáæÈäÇ¡ ÇáÑÓæá ãÍãÏ¡ æ Âáå ÇáØíÈíä ÇáØÇåÑíä - And may the Prayers and Peace be upon the Best of Allah's Creations, the beloved of our hearts, the Messenger Muhammad as well as his Generous and Pure Family...

æ áÚäÉ Çááå ÇáÏÇÆãÉ Úáì ÃÚÏÇÁåã æ ÙÇáãíåã æ ÇáÊÇÈÚíä Úáì Ðáß ãä ÇáÃæáíä Åáì ÇáÂÎÑíä - And may the permanent curse of Allah be upon their enemies and their oppressors and those who follow the trend from the first ones to the last ones...

ÚÙã Çááå ÃÌÑäÇ æ ÃÌÑßã ÈãÕÇÈäÇ ÈÐßÑÉ ÔåÇÏÉ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä æ ÓíÏ ÇáæÕííä ÇáÅãÇã Úáí ÅÈä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã - May Allah increase our good deeds and yours by our loss for the remembrance of the martyrdom of Prince of the Believers, the Master of the Successors, Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib peace be upon him...

Not a nice try.

After the Messenger of Allah, deen was changed by evil companions, you forgot that?

Yeah, Umar changed the sunnah of the Messenger -pbuh&hf- be introducing bidaas... Even your beloved Nasireddine al-Albani (died 1420 AH) says so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgt-SQxLfM4

Was Umar giving his best about transmitting and taking care and applying the Sunnah of our Messenger -pbuh&hf- or was he saying "stick to the quran only"? The answer below according to sunni scholars: al-Bukhari (died 256 AH), Ibn Abdil-Barr (died 463 AH) and Ibn Kathir (died 774 AH)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPbBDBpUcX8

Does an innovator such as him deserve to be called Farooq? By Allah he does not... Another adjective of Imam Ali -puh- that was deviated by Banu Umayya to suit Umar i guess...

Now Sunnah is not in its 'real form', so you have to look at Imam Ali and the rest for guidance?? Right?

But here's a contradiction, as usual!!

Quran says if you disagree on something, don't go to Imam Ali (Ulil Amr??) instead refer to Allah and His Messenger.

Erm because if you want to refer to Allah almighty, and his Messenger -pbuh&hf-, you refer to Imam Ali -puh- because Imam Ali -puh- will judge according to Allah almighty and his Messenger -pbuh&hf- as Imam Ali -puh- is the best Quranic and Tradition Reference after the Messenger...

So unless you deliberately ignoring my posts (2nd time i write that down) there is no contradiction: Imam Ali -puh- represents Allah almighty (quran) and his Messenger -pbuh&hf- (sunnah) in it's best form after the Messenger -pbuh&hf- himself...

æ Úáíßã ÇáÓáÇã æ ÑÍãÉ Çááå æ ÈÑßÇÊå - And upon you be Peace as well as Allah's Mercy and Blessings...

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When you differ??? Differ in what and differ with who??? Care to elaborate??? For argumental reasons lets stick with your version, that Shia Imaams are not infallible for the reason you have given, then what about " Obey those who are in authority amongst you "??? Those people who did not obey the ones who were in authority, what is your opinion and verdict on them, disregarding Allah's command???? Since you keep yapping on about just one thing, how about moving on to the next??? Care to elaborate??? Or are we too afraid of getting into an open discussion????

If you want my opinion then I do not at all believe that Shia imams ever have had any authority over people, except Saiyidina Ali radiyallahu anhu when he was the fourth khalifah, but unfortunately his authority couldn't be established fully because of the turmoil and civil war.

But since shias use this verse a lot to 'prove' their 12 imams have authority over Muslims; the scholar in this video (Shaykh Adnan I think) has used his argument really beautifull to refute any such ideas. And I agree with him by 100% on it. Because according to the verse if people differ on anything. For example Mutah is halal or not, for example there are any infallible imams or not, you must refer to Quran and the Messenger of Allah. Only (1) Allah and (2) the Messenger of Allah have the solution to the problems of humanity. No imams or ulil amr can guide people in case of disagreement. And since Allah doesn't consider ulil amr (or the supposed shia imams) to be referred to in case of disagreement of people, the ulil amr (imams) of shias are not infallible.

And lastly and very importantly, if for a second I say the shia imams are the ulil amr as pointed out in this verse, then people are already differing from each other; shias, sunnis, and loads of other sects, all of which call themselves Muslims..and if we want to settle our disputes and decide the differences, we can't find the so called Imam Mahdi, the Ulil Amr. All we see are marjas and ayatullas wearing big turbans and claiming to be communicating with the Imam Mahdi..

because if you want to refer to Allah almighty, and his Messenger -pbuh&hf-, you refer to Imam Ali -puh- because Imam Ali -puh- will judge according to Allah almighty and his Messenger -pbuh&hf- as Imam Ali -puh- is the best Quranic and Tradition Reference after the Messenger...

Where is Imam Ali? If I go to see him, all I find a multitude of people in Najaf where he's resting in his shrine. Though many people say they are not sure if it's really Imam Ali's shrine. They say Imam Ali's body disappeared after his death and no one knows where it is.

And I'm not going to trust a Persian wearing a high turban and claiming to be a marja or wilayat al faqih, because he's not infallible, and he's not trustworthy at all.

Edited by Sonador

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"'obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you]' 4:59

Firstly.. Is Ali God?

Secondly.. Is Ali the prophet?

Then in which category does Ali fall in?

They agree and say he is Khalifa and the Imam

Beautiful

Allah said: "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger"

....

Where does the disagreement occur?? With the Prophet??"

The Prophet (pbuh) said that Ali (as) will be his successor and the Sunnis disagreed with him when they said Abu Bakr is the successor. The very notion that Abu Bakr was the Calipha was the disagreement. Is this guy dense?

The Most Noble Messenger (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) appointed 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) to guard the city on his behalf, and he ordered that he should remain in Madinah until he returned, administering the affairs of the Muslims. When the Hypocrites realized that their treacherous plans had been divulged, they began spreading idle rumors in the hope of weakening 'Ali's position. They hinted that the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) was angry with 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) and that it was for this reason that he had not been permitted to accompany him on a major military expedition.

'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) was greatly troubled and saddened by the circulation of these rumors, and he hastened to the presence of the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) who had already left Madinah. He told him what had happened, and with a single historic sentence he clarified the special position of 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) once and for all:

"Are you not content that your relation to me shall be like the relation of Harun to Musa, excepting only that there shall be no prophet after me?"

At the end of this hadith there is a sentence that many Sunni scholars have recorded in their books:

"It is not fitting that I should depart without your being my deputy and successor."

al-Hakim, al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 63

al-Nasa'i, al-Khasa'is, p. 63

al-Hamawini, Fara'id al-simtayn, Vol. I, p. 328

al-Dhahabi, Talkhis al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 132

Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, Vol. I, p. 331

al-Khwarazmi, al-Manaqib, p. 72

al-Ganji, Kifayat al-Talib, p. 116

Ibn Asakir, al-Tarikh al-Kabir, Vol. I, p. 203

al-Biladhuri, Ansab al-Ashraf, Vol. II, p. 106

Ibn Kathir, al-Bidayah, Vol. VII, p. 338

al-'Asqalani, al-Isabah, Vol. II, p.509.

For those of who who are unaware, the Prophet Harun (as) was the brother and successor of the Prophet Musa (as). Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) in successorship had every right over the Ummah the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had except prophethood (i.e. to communicate the direct words of Allah in first-person).

It has been 100% authenticated in the Sunnah that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that he will leave the world with the Quran and Ahlul Bayt, and that the 'Quran and Sunnah' narration has been proven to be unauthentic.

SAHIH MUSLIM

Book 031, Number 5920:

...O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household.

http://www.cmje.org/...lim/031-smt.php

NOTE:

"my sunna" hadith IS NOT WEAK. For it to be WEAK (dhaeef) it needs to have people in the chain of narration who 'forget easily' or 'have a bad memory.' A weak hadith - there is still chance that it is true. But the "my sunna" hadith has FABRICATORS in the chain! People who would openly make lies about the Sahaba and the ProphetÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå. So it is not only WEAK, but its is WORSE ---> FABRICATED (mawdhoo').

Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Book 89:329

Sahih Muslim is the second most authentic collection of hadiths in the Sunnah

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Book 20:4477-4483

And there are more than 20 similar narrations

Sunan al-Tirmidhi:

The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve rulers, all of them from Quraysh."

Hadith 2149 (numbering of al-Alamiyyah)

Sunan Abu Dawood:

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

Book 36:4266

A Jewish man named Na'thal, went to the Prophet and among the questions he asked who would succeed him. The Prophet said, specifying them, "After me, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib and then my two sons, Hasan and Husayn and after Husayn, nine Imams will follow from his children." "The Jewish man said, 'Name them.' "The Prophet said, "When Husayn leaves this world, his son, 'Ali, and after him, his child Muhammad and after Muhammad, his son Ja'far and after Ja'far, his son Musa and after Musa, his son 'Ali and after 'Ali, Muhammad. After Muhammad, his child, 'Ali and after 'Ali, Hasan and after Hasan, his child Muhammad al-Mahdi. These are the twelve Imams."

Yanabi' al-Muwadat, p. 431

"This religion shall always be upright till there are twelve from Quraish. When they are no more, the earth will be destroyed (swallowed) with all its inhabitants"

Kanz al-Ummaal, vol 12, pg 34, Tr. No. 3386

- Kash al-Astaar, part 1, pg 99 narrating from al-Ebaanah

- E'laam al-Waraa pg 384

- Muqtazab al-Asar, pg 3-4

- Manaaqeb of ibn Shar Aashob, vol 1, pg 290

- Behaar al-Anwaar vol 36, pg 267, Chap 41, Tr. No. 87

- Al-Insaaf, pg 361

"Surely this religion will always overcome its opponents and no enemy or deserter can ever harm it till there are twelve caliphs from my nation in it. All of them will be from Quraish"

Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 5, pg 87

Nowehere in Sunnism are there 12 Muslim rulers, all of them from Quraysh.

The 'Four Rightly Guided' Rashidun Caliphs were four, there were more than 30 Ummayad Caliphs, Nearly 40 Abbasid Caliphs, and many Sunni Caliphs are not even from Quraysh!

The only 12 Muslim rulers, all from Quraysh, are the 12 Shia Imams.

Edited by AliHussainFaraji

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Ali Hussain Faraji, you have no idea what this thread is about.

Can you read? The entire basis of the video makes absolutely no sense. The disagreement he said never happened was about who the Khalifa was, and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) cleary says it was Ali (as) followed by the 11 Imams. Get it? That's why I posted all that evidence clearly stating the Khalifa was Ali ibn Abi Talib (as).

Surah Al-Ahzaab cleary states the Ahlul Bayt were perfected, which he agrees with, so this guy is speaking gibberish for two minutes making no actual point and then blurting out 'See! I proved he's not infallible' when he didn't actually do anything and is contradicted by the Quran and Sunnah.

  • Hussain Ibn Sabrah asked Zaid Ibn Arqam, "Who are the members of His household? Aren't His wives part of the members of his family?" Thereupon Zaid said, "His wives are members of his family [in a general sense], but (Islamically), the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of zakat is forbidden." Hussain asked, "Who are they?". Upon which Zaid said, "Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil, the offspring of Jaffer, and the offspring of Abbas." Hussain said "These are those for whom the acceptance of zakat is forbidden?" Zaid replied, "Yes."

Sahih Muslim #31.5920-2.

According to Sahih Muslim, Zaid then expanded on this hadith and stated this:

  • Hussain Then asked: "Aren't the wives (Of the Prophet) included amongst the members of the household?" He said, "No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man [as his wife] for a certain period; he then divorces her, and she goes back to her parents and her people. The members of his household include his own self, and his kith, and kin, for whom the acceptance of zakat is prohibited."

Sahih Muslim #31.5923

Now to get the exact hadith on who is being referred to in this verse of the Qur'an, again we look at the hadith which are both deemed Sahih by Sunnis and Shiites, and are accepted. To this let me give you the sources of the Hadith (As recorded in the Sunni books, not the Shiite sources), because I don't want write them all out.

  • Sahih Muslim #31.5955
  • Sunan Tirmidhi #3787, #3205
  • Tafsir Al Durr Al Manthoor, under 33:33
  • Tafsir Tabari again under 33:33
  • Tafsir Ibn Katheer, Another reference by Al Durr Al Manthur under said verse, Tafsir Ibn Atiyyah, Tafsir Thalabi, all under 33:33

Bottom line: Ali (as) was, in fact, infallible and the rightful successor of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

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