Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib(as)
I have avoided the discussion of “The God” and aspects and working, so we do not get distracted and dwell in the realm( of Evil, Mercy, Love, help, present/absent, why does he not act, or why he/ she is silent, why allow all this, that is going on ) that is out of our domain for this discussion at this point in time.
If there is a need, I(Layman opinion) will say, The one who created me, doesn't owe me anything, beyond guidance. If anything exists it's the lack of follow through or rejection of the guidance. I.e. If the humans allow conditions to develop, and there is oppression. Where is God is not the question. Question, is Humanity has been guided at two levels ( inner and outer), rejection of both is the issue not why God does not take away this evil person that we elected or tolerated until he/she turned on us(we were fine up untill it was happening to others). We human need to do our job, instead of having entitlement mentality, and deflect it to it's your fault God., where are you and why you do not help. We have been helped. Intellect/Guidance( brief understanding, as a layman).
Maybe not the best example but it will suffice, We would not expect the Mars rover to dwell in the realm of our working, instead it should be concerned with its prime directive, and we are to provide it guidance to accomplish its work.
There are may misunderstanding, in definition, version, understanding due to linguistic, terminology(old/new), cultural (East/West) and lack of Conceptual discussion at the basic fundamental level instead of technicalities and mechanic(which is subconsciously embedded in the way we have been groomed in schools and universities).
A charged and contentious environment does not help in getting to any resolution. It's usually tit for tat, and pride get in the way in different threads a that were responding to targeted and side issue out of context.
No one to the best of my knowledge and understanding denies we are limited creations in all aspects. Your creation and Your surrounding creation(s) , are proof of something that can not be denied. So, there is a Cause, the unlimited, infinitely powerful, Unknown/Unseen Source of all this. What you(non Muslims) call that source is not relevant - you can call it a system, I call it God. So, there are no Atheists or Agnostic here.
What an Atheist/ Agnostic may be, saying is that they do not believe in the God of Islam as “presented “or as understood or as described. That is a very different issue. But this issue, gets mixed up with other issues dealing with the mechanics in other threads which are on specific topics.
Getting back to the Topic.
We turn now to Stephen Hawking. He proposes M-theory, a variant of string theory, to explain the origins of the universe. The conclusion of his last book, The Grand Design, states:
Stephen Hawking is a SME ( Subject Matter Expert) in his field of Study. If he gave his scientific theory and left it at that. I would not care nor it should be my concern, as there are many SMEs and have their theories in the Scientific world about may things. His connecting it to and concluding that there is no need for god( his understanding of what god is to him). Is the issue, I am highlighting it not only because of what he said, because he or people like him are followed and the laypeople use these ideas to formulate their ideology. This is something, prevalent, using fiction which they call ‘Science” as a tool to attack Divine Religion.
This is where this talk and connection / implication that this is the god and of you can’t pray to or ask for help form gravity, or physical laws are not empathetic, and are cold and have no concern for the humans ….This connection makes no sense. Comparing apples and oranges and mixing stuff that is confusing. This mentally is delusional and it stems out of misunderstanding of the concepts of pray, or help, mercy, etc..or implications that ignorant people believe in miracles and angels. Or we can’t carbon date the text, or evidence of such and such event.
In short ignorant conclusions by apparently learned people in their field of study Trickle down effect, and the lay Atheists/Agnostics take these talking point and formulate an opinion and argument with it. Objectivity is also an issue, here. Double standards. Scientific theories are not subject to the same rigorous, and shredding mentality.
Its 5000, 2000, 1400 old stuff, we are Technically advanced. We forget that this advancement is in Technology,(only). The basic alphabet in terms of Social behavior, is as old as the cave people.
Moving beyond, Mechanics, working, Techinacilities and this attitude of the best generation to exist, every preceding generation had the same attitude. and we will be looked at and our theories considers as old and outdated by the new generations.
Its a Point is time assessment.
What are the benefits of the revealed information- i.e Revealed to us through our struggle and study through discovery of us and whats around us.?
Do we follow the Laws, derived from this new knowledge? If not what are we rally arguing about. If a person can't even at least in Theory acknowledge the laws of Nature for our(Humanity) Benefit. If you were to do that, you may rethink you position, because you may realize that you have been arguing against something that Natural laws actually prove.
This is what concerns me, at this point. Why can't the objective, learned and "technically" advanced people see that and make this connection?
Technical stuff/mechanic, of Biological change, next stage, or toasters, cars, bridges, space race, new medicine and quest of the common animal are of what consequence except for knocking a book or theory of descent or maybe some new medicine may develop form the finding. If the theory of micro evolution as marketed to support the a particular version of evolution , is inserted here, its argues that we will always be a step behind and they(Virus) will mutate, or accomplishing something making life better and having some toys and pride issues over other nations that we went to pluto..so what ?
How does this help us , solving the social problems of Humanity? (That is what Divine Religion is about).. Is there a comprehensive Social theory under development due to above technical advancements. ?
Is there a comprehensive Social theory out there? (maybe not to the liking of the people due to Nurture, but is there)
To, me it looks like a willful denial of the Nature, a clash of Nature vs Nurture. People are finding any thing to latch on to stay free of any obligation/accountability.
Correct me if I am wrong, I am a layman, average person. I read , what is written by people , i assess and drive at a conclusion. So, I post to be criticized, constructive criticism. So, I can better under and remove misunderstanding(s) to gain better knowledge.
If the father doesn't approve of it, and didn't leave the door open for further contact, then that's it.
They are not being disrespectful. Saying "no" should not forcibly come with an explanation, thus you can't demand it nor force them to listen to you. It is called freedom, and that is more sacred than anything you can tell them.