Jump to content
RayanJ

Ismaili's Don't Believe In Hazrat Ali's Imamat?

Recommended Posts

Not exactly, Ismaili Nizari do believe that Imam Ali was the first Imam, but they do not believe that Imam Hasan was the second Imam. However, Ismaili Bohra believe that Imam Ali was the first Imam and Imam Hasan was the second Imam.

Hope this helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the Ismaili sect generally refer to Ali (as) as the successor of the Prophet. They don't addressed him as the Imam. They don't believe in twelve Imams like we do.

Also, there is another Ismail sect that recognize Imam Ali and Imam Husayn as the first and second Imam. They treat Imam Hassan as the custodian of the Imamah.

This is from the top of my head. I don't have available reference for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ismaili's Don't Believe In Hazrat Ali's Imamat

then how do they call themselves as shias ???

I do think most of the old Ismaili sects did believe that Ali(as) was the successor of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

They don't refer to themselves as Shia. Even Zaydis don't generally refer to themselves as Shias. Ithna Asharis are referred to, by themselves and others, as Shia Ithna Ashari or Shia Imamiah.

Some scholars have used the Shia label for anyone who harbor love towards Ali (as) and the family of the Holy Prophet or think that Ali (as) was the rightful successor to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). That would include a lot of Muslim sects.

Labeling sects is not as straightforward as you think. It's confusing to me.

Edited by Gypsy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think most of the old Ismaili sects did believe that Ali(as) was the successor of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

They don't refer to themselves as Shia. Even Zaydis don't generally refer to themselves as Shias. Ithna Asharis are referred to, by themselves and others, as Shia Ithna Ashari or Shia Imamiah.

Some scholars have used the Shia label for anyone who harbor love towards Ali (as) and the family of the Holy Prophet or think that Ali (as) was the rightful successor to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). That would include a lot of Muslim sects.

Labeling sects is not as straightforward as you think. It's confusing to me.

meet them they will say

YA ALI MADAD

yes there are aga khanis , dawoodi bohras ..........who claim to be shias

but their practises are quite different than the ithna ashari

my question was that when they dont believe in the imammat of imam ali (as) how can they claim to be shias ??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The current Aga Khanis or followers of Aga Khan, if they are even religious, have mostly adopted the Sunni fundamentals. But you can still find some of his followers who still holds Ali (as) in high regards and deemed him as the rightful heir to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). But it is hard to figure out what their religious belief is in the 20th and 21th century because most of them or a very significant number of them are very secular. Even the Aga Khan and his family do not appear to be holding to some of the traditional Islamic values that are heavily emphasized in Islam.

Their practices are quite different, not only from us, the Shia, but also from other Muslims. I remember seeing a cultural video of them performing arts and dances wondering if they have been heavily influenced by the cultural aspect of other religion.

I don't know what you mean by they are claiming themselves as being Shia? We don't really consider anyone other than us as Shia. Unfortunately, we cannot stop people using the label Shia.

Think of this way. The Sunnah wal-Jamaah claim that they are living and following the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) and even refereed to themselves as Sunni. But we know that isn't true.

Edited by Gypsy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes there are aga khanis , dawoodi bohras ..........who claim to be shias

but their practises are quite different than the ithna ashari

my question was that when they dont believe in the imammat of imam ali (as) how can they claim to be shias ??

As macisaac already mentioned, the early Isma'ilis and the current Bohra/Musta'ali Isma'ilis believe that Imam 'Ali (as) held a station higher than that of Imam. They believe(d) him to be the Asas (Foundation) of the current cycle (dawr) of Prophecy which began with Rasool Allah (saws). Their first Imam is Hasan ibn 'Ali (as).

OTH, the Nizari Isma'ilis (aka Agha Khanis today) have actually removed Hasan (as) as an Imam altogether and have forgone the classification of Asas, simply starting the line of Imams with 'Ali (as). They believe Imam Hasan (as) was a mustawda (temporary or trustee) Imam only. After Imam 'Ali (as), they only regard Husayn ibn 'Ali (as) and his descendents as mustaqarr (permanent) Imams.

yes there are aga khanis , dawoodi bohras ..........who claim to be shias

but their practises are quite different than the ithna ashari

Actually, Dawoodi Bohra are, in many way, similar to Ithna 'Ashariyya when it comes to their outward practices. Nizaris are a different matter altogether ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

are u sure they dont beleive on his a.s imamat?

i was refering to the title and posed the question

The current Aga Khanis or followers of Aga Khan, if they are even religious, have mostly adopted the Sunni fundamentals. But you can still find some of his followers who still holds Ali (as) in high regards and deemed him as the rightful heir to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). But it is hard to figure out what their religious belief is in the 20th and 21th century because most of them or a very significant number of them are very secular. Even the Aga Khan and his family do not appear to be holding to some of the traditional Islamic values that are heavily emphasized in Islam.

Their practices are quite different, not only from us, the Shia, but also from other Muslims. I remember seeing a cultural video of them performing arts and dances wondering if they have been heavily influenced by the cultural aspect of other religion.

I don't know what you mean by they are claiming themselves as being Shia? We don't really consider anyone other than us as Shia. Unfortunately, we cannot stop people using the label Shia.

Think of this way. The Sunnah wal-Jamaah claim that they are living and following the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) and even refereed to themselves as Sunni. But we know that isn't true.

zaidis , dawoodi bohra , aga khani , seveners .....all claim to be shias

isnt it

but they deviated at some point in history

The current Aga Khanis or followers of Aga Khan, if they are even religious, have mostly adopted the Sunni fundamentals. But you can still find some of his followers who still holds Ali (as) in high regards and deemed him as the rightful heir to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). But it is hard to figure out what their religious belief is in the 20th and 21th century because most of them or a very significant number of them are very secular. Even the Aga Khan and his family do not appear to be holding to some of the traditional Islamic values that are heavily emphasized in Islam.

Their practices are quite different, not only from us, the Shia, but also from other Muslims. I remember seeing a cultural video of them performing arts and dances wondering if they have been heavily influenced by the cultural aspect of other religion.

I don't know what you mean by they are claiming themselves as being Shia? We don't really consider anyone other than us as Shia. Unfortunately, we cannot stop people using the label Shia.

Think of this way. The Sunnah wal-Jamaah claim that they are living and following the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) and even refereed to themselves as Sunni. But we know that isn't true.

true

As macisaac already mentioned, the early Isma'ilis and the current Bohra/Musta'ali Isma'ilis believe that Imam 'Ali (as) held a station higher than that of Imam. They believe(d) him to be the Asas (Foundation) of the current cycle (dawr) of Prophecy which began with Rasool Allah (saws). Their first Imam is Hasan ibn 'Ali (as).

OTH, the Nizari Isma'ilis (aka Agha Khanis today) have actually removed Hasan (as) as an Imam altogether and have forgone the classification of Asas, simply starting the line of Imams with 'Ali (as). They believe Imam Hasan (as) was a mustawda (temporary or trustee) Imam only. After Imam 'Ali (as), they only regard Husayn ibn 'Ali (as) and his descendents as mustaqarr (permanent) Imams.

Actually, Dawoodi Bohra are, in many way, similar to Ithna 'Ashariyya when it comes to their outward practices. Nizaris are a different matter altogether ...

okay got it

but bohras differ from the 7 th imam right

and they dont do zanjeer matam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but bohras differ from the 7 th imam right

and they dont do zanjeer matam

Not sure what you mean re: Bohras and the 7th imam. As with all Isma'ilis, they believe that Isma'il ibn Ja'far was the imam after as-Sadiq (as) and that his son Muhammad ibn Isma'il was the imam after him. Since Imam 'Ali (as) is the Asas and Imam Hasan (as) is their 1st imam, in their reckoning Imam Ja'far was the 5th imam, Isma'il was the 6th, and Muhammad ibn Isma'il was the 7th imam.

As for matam and zanjeer, many individual Bohras also take part in those Azadari rituals, sometimes alongside Ithna 'Asharis strangely enough, as it's not something that is organised in their masajid and religious centres.

Hope that made some sense ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure what you mean re: Bohras and the 7th imam. As with all Isma'ilis, they believe that Isma'il ibn Ja'far was the imam after as-Sadiq (as) and that his son Muhammad ibn Isma'il was the imam after him. Since Imam 'Ali (as) is the Asas and Imam Hasan (as) is their 1st imam, in their reckoning Imam Ja'far was the 5th imam, Isma'il was the 6th, and Muhammad ibn Isma'il was the 7th imam.

As for matam and zanjeer, many individual Bohras also take part in those Azadari rituals, sometimes alongside Ithna 'Asharis strangely enough, as it's not something that is organised in their masajid and religious centres.

Hope that made some sense ...

yes u r right

i also meant that they dont accept imam musa al khadim (as)

as far as i know they dont do zanjir matam

but beat their chest with hands daily after every prayer

in remembrance of hussain (as)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes u r right

i also meant that they dont accept imam musa al khadim (as)

as far as i know they dont do zanjir matam

but beat their chest with hands daily after every prayer

in remembrance of hussain (as)

Salam Brother,

Yes we Bohras avoid doing Zanjir matam. AQA Ali is the father of all Imams. He is the Vasi of prophet Muhammed. We Bohras are Shias who do matam of Imam Hussain after every prayer with our hands. I am not sure who Imam Musa was but Imam Ismail was the true successor of his father from whom the imamate continued.

Vassalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure who Imam Musa was but Imam Ismail was the true successor of his father from whom the imamate continued.

Salams bro,

What historical evidence do our Bohra Brothers put forward that Ismail was the true successor?

Similarly, how did Imam Musa Ibn Jaffer (as) feel about his brother generating his own following? Surely they mst have discussed this. Did this not cause tension amongst the Holy Imam (as) and Ismael?

It's an interesting issue

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salams bro,

What historical evidence do our Bohra Brothers put forward that Ismail was the true successor?

Similarly, how did Imam Musa Ibn Jaffer (as) feel about his brother generating his own following? Surely they mst have discussed this. Did this not cause tension amongst the Holy Imam (as) and Ismael?

It's an interesting issue

Thanks

Isma`il b. Ja`far (ra) had already died before his father Imam Sadiq (as) passed away, so there wouldn't have been anything for him and his brother Musa (as) to discuss..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Their practices are quite different, not only from us, the Shia, but also from other Muslims. I remember seeing a cultural video of them performing arts and dances wondering if they have been heavily influenced by the cultural aspect of other religion.

You mean this?

Aga Khan can be seen clapping for the dance in front of him, at 5:46.

Edited by thinking100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isma`il b. Ja`far (ra) had already died before his father Imam Sadiq (as) passed away, so there wouldn't have been anything for him and his brother Musa (as) to discuss..

Please read the matter below from a book written by an English author who has done complete research and study on the topic to clarify the subject :

"The great schism of Shi’ism arose on the grounds of succession rather than doctrine: Ismailis believe that the imamate was passed to the de scendants of Jafar al-Sadiq’s son Ismail, while Ithna-Asharis believe it was inherited by the descendants of Ismail’s brother Musa. Doctrinal divergence followed, but initially the split centered on avenue of spiritual authority. Ismail was born circa 100/720, and was about twenty-five years older than Musa. He received nass from his father, and this nass was never clearly revoked. As Daftary notes, “There can be no doubt about the authenticity of this designation, which forms the basis of the claims of the Isma’iliyya.” According to a theologian of the high Fatimid period, Imam Jafar made his nass in public, declaring of Ismail: “He is the Imam after me, and what you learn from him is just the same as if you have learnt it from myself.” The crisis for Shi’a occurred when Ismail, having been declared the next imam by infallible predeceased his father Jafar by about a decade. During Jafar’s lifetime this cast doubt on the imam’s own infallibility, and laid the seeds of a bitter struggle for succession on jafar’s death.’ Three of Jafar’s surviving sons claimed the imamate, but none had clear evidence of nass. Musa emerged as the consensus candidate backed by a majority of the Shi’a notables, but a determined group of partisans championed the cause of Ismail’s son Muhammad: nass was irrevocable (this camp held), and the imam is infallible in his choice of successor. Modern Bohra clerical sources do not dispute Ismail’s premature death, but they contend that this event did not change the legitimacy of succession. This position has been articulated by Musta’li theologians for at least eight centuries (possibly much longer). The third da’i al-mutlaq after the occul tation of the twenty-first imam, Syedna Hatim Shamsuddin (d. 596/1199), wrote that according to prophesies attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib himself, “The eldest of these [ of Imam Jafarl shall die in the lifetime of his father, appointing as his successor the seventh imam.” The early Bohra cleric Hasan ibn Nuh of Broach (d. 939/1533) is even more explicit: “The sixth imam was Mawlana Isma’il b. Jafar, Abu Muhammad, surnamed al-Wafi. He died during the lifetime of his father, but not before the latter had appointed him as his successor. . . [ bequeathed his position to his son. Muhammad b. Isma’il, with the consent of his father, transferring to him the office of the imamate by his father’s, Imam Ja’far’s, order, and in his Another Ismaili view—as articulated in later centuries, at least—was that Ismail had not died before his father, but that his death had been staged as a scheme to protect the true line of imams from Abbasid plots. In the words of the ninth/fifteenth century Mustali da’i al-mutlaq Idris Imad al-Din, “ time came for Isma’il to dissemble death, using this ruse against his enemies who were full of hatred, enmity and the ardent desire to extinguish the Light of God”; the imam permitted Musa’ to be acknowledged only “as a ‘screen’ for the real successor.” Jafar ibn Mansur, writing during the Fatimid ascendency, expresses the same belief: “His body was made to disappear during the lifetime of his father, as a mystery intended to protect him from his enemies and as a test for his followers.” Imam Jafar alSadiq is said to have gone to extraordinary lengths to “prove” Ismail’s death, even parading a procession of witnesses past the open coffin to testify that the body it contained was that of his son. Five years later, Ismail is said to have appeared in Basra— 20 and even to have cured a paralytic. Whether or not the ruse succeeded in fooling the Abbasids, it certainly succeeded in confusing the Shi’a. Some accounts claim that Jafar withdrew his nass from Ismail on discovering that his son was a drunkard, but such speculation appears to be Ithna-Ashari and Sunni polemic rather than history. If nass was revoked during Ismail’s lifetime, a more plausible charge would have been associ ation with heretical ghulats. Lewis and other scholars argue that Ismail was closely linked to Abu al-Khattab, a ghulat who made such extreme claims that ImamJafar was forced to curse him. In addition to raising issues of ba tini ta’wil and numerology that would later find their way into orthodox Ismaili belief, al-Khattab is said to have placed himself outside the bounds of Islamic doctrine by preaching the divinity of the imams. He was even tually crucified by the Abbasids, expressing his loyalty to Jafar and Ismail to the very end. After the death of Jafar al-Sadiq, Muhammad ibn Ismail fled Medina and settled in Kufa. Early Ismaili devotion centered on Imam Muhammad rather than on his father Ismail: to a sect called the Qarmatis, and perhaps to most Ismailis prior to the Fatimid caliphate, he was referred to as a! Mahdi or al-Qaim (The Riser), and expected to return from seclusion to usher in a new cycle of prophesy. While Mahdism is a concept dating back to the first century of Islam, Ismailis have tended to prefer the term a! Qaim. Muhammad ibn Ismail was succeeded (modern Ismaili doctrine holds) by his son Abdullah al-Mastur, the first of the “hidden imams.” Dur ing this dawr al-satr (period of concealment), the imams carried out their spiritual duties while living lives disguised as simple merchants. They traveled from place to place, or tended to business in one site for as long as was safe, communicating with their followers through a secret network of da’is.* Early in the Fatimid caliphate, Imam al-Muizz billah is said to have searched out the remains of all the hidden imams and transported them to Cairo for reburial. Modern scholars have noted that the idea of an imamate passed down in secret from the second/eighth to the fourth/tenth centuries seems to have been first articulated during Fatimid times: if such a doctrine was propagated contemporaneously, the veil of taqiyya prevented it from appearing in the documentary record. During these two embattled centunes, Ismailism was primarily a peasant and Bedouin movement with little urban presence. In such a context, and particularly when laboring under the burden of Sunni oppression, a certain vagueness in doctrinal theory is to be expected. Abbasid vigilance forced the movement deep underground, and according to legend Imam Abdullah alMastur concealed himself so well that for several years he was completely lost to his followers. After an exhaustive search throughout much of the Muslim world, Ismaili loyalists are said to have found the imam at a site named “the monastery of sparrows.” The second hidden imam, Ahmad al-Mastur ibn Abdullah, is said to have authored the Ismaili theological text Rasa’il Ikhwan al-Safa. He was succeeded by Husain al-Mastur ibn Ahmad, during whose tenure missionaries are said to have had great success in the dissemination of the faith. His representatives gained a firm foothold in Yemen, and among the Berbers of the Maghrib his da’i Abu Abdullah al-Shii laid the foundation for what would soon become the Fatimid empire. According to Syedna Idris Imad al-Din, “He organised the propaganda, spread it further afield, broadcast instructions to his 21 followers, making it manifest . . . and dispatched his dais everywhere. He thus made the true religion visible to those who were in search of it.” The policy of satr protected the imamate from external Abbasid threats, but exposed it to threats from within. The next (and last) hidden imam, Husain ibn Ahmad, had to rely on his brother Muhammad Habib to communicate his directives to the community at large. As Husain’s death approached, Muhammad Habib tried to transfer the imamate to his own line by claiming that nass had been conferred on his own son. Soon after, the son died of mysterious causes. The regent claimed nass for his next son, and that candidate also passed away. In all, according to legend, Muhammad Habib anointed ten of his sons, and watched all of them die before he acknowledged Husain’s son Abdullah al-Mahdi as the legitimate imam. It is with Abdullah al-Mahdi (268—322/881—934), the eleventh imam, that the dawr alsatr ends and the Ismaili community reemerges into a period of open, verifiable history. During the terms of the preceding imams, da’i Abu Abdullah al-Shii had succeeded in converting the Berbers of what is now Tunisia to the Ismaili cause. He had already established a rigid theo cratic rule, with strictures including death for the sale or use of alcohol, and invited Abdullah al-Mahdi to rule over the kingdom that had been set up in his name. The imam was publicly proclaimed caliph in 297/910, and with his arrival in the Maghrib the Fatimid period of Ismaili history begins."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes there are aga khanis , dawoodi bohras ..........who claim to be shias

but their practises are quite different than the ithna ashari

my question was that when they dont believe in the imammat of imam ali (as) how can they claim to be shias ??

Brother, who said that Dawoodi Bohra's don't beleive in Ali. We Bohra's are Ali's Shias. We are true lovers of AQA Ali and the Ahlebayt. We beleive Ali is the successor of prophet Muhammed and is above the Imams. The first imam is Imam Hasan.

Does this help?

Salam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the Nizari 100% believe Ali was Imam, YA ALI MADAD is our cry.

meet them they will say

YA ALI MADAD

In fact, younger Nizari Ismailis are being taught that "Ya Ali Madad" ("O Ali, help") is the official greeting method in Ismailism as well as Islam more generally. Their primary school religious curriculum has a whole subject on just using this greeting. So, all Nizari Ismailis use this greeting when meeting with each other and often also when meeting with Shia Muslims.

Nizari Ismailis use this greeting instead of the salaam ​greeting used by the Muslims, despite the fact that the only greeting that Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) and Hazrat Ali (as) and the Imams ever used was the salaam greeting. Also, "Ya Ali Madad" is (at least in my opinion) shirk, as there is no mention of intercession in this statement nor any mention of Allah. I also believe that many of the earlier Shia scholars would definitely think using this phrase of "Ya Ali Madad" to be extremism (ghuluww). There are also at least a few Shia scholars today who regard it as ghuluww as well, I think.

The salaam greeting has a great significance in Islam and it is the greeting that all the Prophets of the past used, and that all Muslims have historically used, may peace be upon them all.

In fact, Jews say "Shalom Aleicum" - which is the Hebrew version of "Salaam Alaikum." They believe this greeting was the one used by Prophet Musa (as).

Let me add that saying "peace be upon you" makes a whole lot more sense when meeting someone than saying something like "O Ali, help." This is common sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In fact, younger Nizari Ismailis are being taught that "Ya Ali Madad" ("O Ali, help") is the official greeting method in Ismailism as well as Islam more generally. Their primary school religious curriculum has a whole subject on just using this greeting. So, all Nizari Ismailis use this greeting when meeting with each other and often also when meeting with Shia Muslims.

Nizari Ismailis use this greeting instead of the salaam ​greeting used by the Muslims, despite the fact that the only greeting that Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) and Hazrat Ali (as) and the Imams ever used was the salaam greeting. Also, "Ya Ali Madad" is (at least in my opinion) shirk, as there is no mention of intercession in this statement nor any mention of Allah. I also believe that many of the earlier Shia scholars would definitely think using this phrase of "Ya Ali Madad" to be extremism (ghuluww). There are also at least a few Shia scholars today who regard it as ghuluww as well, I think.

The salaam greeting has a great significance in Islam and it is the greeting that all the Prophets of the past used, and that all Muslims have historically used, may peace be upon them all.

In fact, Jews say "Shalom Aleicum" - which is the Hebrew version of "Salaam Alaikum." They believe this greeting was the one used by Prophet Musa (as).

Let me add that saying "peace be upon you" makes a whole lot more sense when meeting someone than saying something like "O Ali, help." This is common sense.

Ismailis do use this amongust themselves and other Shias as a greating. I would not consider this shirk. If Rasool-e-Khuda (saw) called for the help of Imam Ali (as) in the battle at the Fort of Khyber, I do not see why it can be Shirk for us to ask for his help. "Ya Ali Bilutfika Adrikani!" "O Ali! Help me with thy kindness!" did the Beloved Prophet (saw) call.

Ya Ali Madad

Khuda Hafiz

As-Salamu Alaykum

Edited by princevisram

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If Rasool-e-Khuda (saw) called for the help of Imam Ali (as) in the battle at the Fort of Khyber, I do not see why it can be Shirk for us to ask for his help. "Ya Ali Bilutfika Adrikani!" "O Ali! Help me with thy kindness!" did the Beloved Prophet (saw) call.

First of all, Nizari Ismailis do not use hadiths. They don't have hadith books and they have no records of what the Prophet (SAWS) said or did, as a result. As one might infer, they have no authentication system for hadiths, also. The knowledge that Nizari Ismailis have when it comes to hadiths and the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS) is, thereby, precisely zero. Thus, Nizari Ismailis have no way of knowing how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted and implemented the Qur'an [i.e. what the Prophet (SAWS) said or did in his lifetime, and especially during Prophethood] - including anything that happened during the Battle of Khaybar (or whether events like Ghadir-e-Khumm even occurred, as a matter of fact). What about orientalist books on the life of the Prophet (SAWS), you ask? Well, the speculations of orientalists with regard to what the Prophet (SAWS) said or did in his lifetime - or even whether he lived at all (which some of them are now in fact questioning) - are just that: speculations. No Muslim worth the dust on the road is that interested in these speculations because they are not valid proof of anything. They are more like possibilities that may or may not have occurred. When it comes to talking about anything involving the Prophet (SAWS) and his life, including how he interpreted and understood the Qur'an, Muslims are interested in authentic hadiths. Do the Nizari Ismailis have any? Nope.

Secondly, please give us the hadith reference for your quote - from either Sunni or Twelver hadith books. Also, demonstrate to us that the hadith you are quoting is in fact authentic and reliable (meets the standards of a sahih or at least a hasan hadith). Most reported hadiths are not authentic (whether in Sunni or Twelver books) [and part of the reason for this is because hadith compilers wanted to keep track of anything reported about the Prophet (SAWS), even if it was false, so at least the fraudulent hadiths could be kept track of].

Thirdly, if this hadith you are quoting is indeed either sahih or hasan, then why do you accept it but reject all of the other sahih and hasan hadiths (be they in Sunni or Twelver hadith books)? For instance, what enables you, as a Nizari Ismaili, to differentiate between two sahih hadiths from either a Sunni or Twelver hadith book - accepting one but rejecting the other? There are many sahih hadiths in both Sunni and Twelver hadith books that would completely destroy the beliefs of Nizari Ismailis. Are you going to only accept the sahih hadiths that don't clearly disagree with the teachings of Nizari Ismailism? That would be irrational and unjustified.

Fourthly, you will need to demonstrate that, in the authentic hadith being referenced by you (if it is indeed considered authentic by Sunnis or Twelvers or both), the Prophet (SAWS) was calling Ali (as) but Ali wouldn't normally have been able to hear what the Prophet was saying. If Ali (as) was with the Prophet (SAWS) when this statement was made, then the context is that of a direct human-to-human discussion, and not what you're suggesting. You see, what you are suggesting is truly extraordinary. You are suggesting that Ali (as) can hear AND respond to a Muslim's summon of "Ya Ali" in the same way that Allah (SWT) can hear AND respond to a Muslim's summon of "Ya Allah." Sounds pretty preposterous right off the bat, and sounds like something that the Prophet (SAWS) was sent to eradicate and not encourage (given that Tawheed and La Ilaha Ilah Lah was what he spent more time preaching than anything else during his Prophethood). What you're talking about is beyond simply intercession, since you neither mention intercession nor Allah when saying "Ya Ali Madad." Let me add that it is not surprising to me that Imam Ali (as) never even so much as uttered a supplication like "Ya Rasulullah" after the Prophet (SAWS) passed away.

P.S. Let's be honest: Nizari Ismailism is a fairy tale with no foundation and no evidence behind it whatsoever. There is more evidence to indicate that Santa Clause is real then that Nizari Ismailism (or the Aga Khan) are true. And, from where do you derive the Prophet's interpretation of the Qur'an - or anything about the Prophet's (SAWS) life - without hadiths and the Sunnah? Go and look at what the Imams (as) said about the importance of the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS), starting with Imam Ali (as). Heck, you don't even need to do that because it's common sense. The whole Deen of Islam (including the concept of Imamat, for those of us who are Twelvers and use Twelver hadith books) stems from the utilization of the Sunnah to interpret the Qur'an - and this is something that both Sunnis and Twelvers (98% of the people on this planet claiming to be Muslim) have always accepted and understood. It is part and parcel of Islam. Without the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS), there is no way to know how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted the Qur'an and implemented the Qur'an, and this is why the Sunnah is so tremendously important for all Muslims. Nizari Ismailis, without the Sunnah, are completely lost in the wilderness - just like the Christians, who have a religion that is based solely on faith (since, not only is the Bible corrupted, but, nobody knows how to interpret it either).

Sunnis have a right to their interpretation of the Qur'an because they have their version of the Sunnah (their own hadith books and their own hadith authentication system). Same goes for Twelvers, because Twelvers have their own version of the Sunnah as well (their own hadith books and their own authentication system). Do Nizari Ismailis have their own version of the Sunnah? Nope! They have no idea how the Prophet (SAWS) interpreted and implemented the Qur'an.

Ya Ali Madad

Khuda Hafiz

As-Salamu Alaykum

Only one of these phrases was used as the greeting of the Prophets and the Imams when dealing with other believers.

The first one represents ghuluww (extremism) - and is not even a greeting, but, rather an invocation that can neither be heard nor responded to without Allah's direct aid. Yet no mention of Allah is made.

The second one is cultural (used in the Indian subcontinent).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • 3.142. Muhammad b. Abdallah b. al-Hasan b. al-Hasan al-Mujtaba al-Nafs al-Zakiyya https://sites.google.com/site/mujamalahadith/vol1/book-of-narrators/muhammad-b-abdallah-b-al-hasan-b-al-hasan-al-mujtaba-al-nafs-al-zakiyya   [-/1] بـصـائـر الـدرجـات: عبدالله بن جعفر ، عن محمد بن عيسى ، عن صفوان ، عن العيص ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: ما من بني ولا وصي ولا ملك إلا في كتاب عندي ، لا والله ما لمحمد بن عبدالله بن الحسن فيه اسم [1/-] Basair al-Darajat: Abdallah b. Ja’far from Muhammad b. Isa from Safwan from al-Iys [b. al-Qasim] from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام who said: there is not a prophet or a successor or a king except that he is found in a book which is with me. No by Allah! the name of Muhammad b. Abdallah b. al-Hasan is not in there. NOTES: This is one of the signs of the Imama of al-Sadiq for he prophesied that the revolt of Muhammad b. Abdallah b. al-Hasan [a descendant of Imam al-Hasan] would end in failure and that this pretender who claimed to be the Mahdi would be put to death by the Abbasid Caliph al-Mansur. The Imam repeated this prediction a number times, many years before the actual occurrence, most prominently at the meeting of the Hashimis at Abwa. This became widely known from him, such that even Sunni authorities like Ibn Khaldun in his Muqadimma makes a mention of it. al-Muhsini: Perhaps what is meant by ‘kings’ are those up to the time of the ‘Aimma. To have the names of all kings from the beginning of creation to the end of the world, over all countries and for all time, would require several volumes, how large would this book be in size? In any case, al-Muhsini does not accept the reliability of this particular narrations because of his doubts about Basair as a source.
    • Bruv. Costs an arm and a leg (means it costs a lot of money)  
    • Salaam Alaykum Inshaallah on your effort. Allah put you on the right path. Be grateful for that. About your question, yes you need to pray and fast for those days, but don't worry. It's not that much hard. For example, I do one day Qadha pray everyday, so after two years and half from now I'll be done with Qadha prays. You can also come up with a program for Qadha fasts as well. Here are two posts for Qadha prays and fasts:   Keep going brother
    • Brother, offer thanks to Allah & instead of inventing questions like these, ask Him to grant you the steadfastness on deen.  Surah Al-Maeda, Verse 54:
      يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللَّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لَائِمٍ ذَٰلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَاءُ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
      (English - Shakir) Surah Muhammad, Verse 25:
      إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَىٰ أَدْبَارِهِم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَى الشَّيْطَانُ سَوَّلَ لَهُمْ وَأَمْلَىٰ لَهُمْ Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.
      (English - Shakir) Try to take benifits from the blessed nights like shab e qadr, shab e bara'at, last friday night & day of Ramadhan. They will makeup your account & removes your burden In-sha Allah. And no, its not too late. A true & sincere repentence is all what one need for his success before death approaches him. Just try to offer obligatory prayers with sunnah & salat al layl regularly from now onwards. And try to use the blessed nights. Dont worry, put your trust on Allah. He is the Most Merciful. Learning is a continuous process which never ends. We even learn something from our own death. You're Alhamdolillah alive, start your journey with prayer "Rabbi zidni ilma". 
    • Great quotation from the FT today.  https://www.ft.com/content/f1d5571c-d119-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc Note how: 1. an undemocratic putsch is now defined as being 'popularly backed' making a weak attempt at legitimising it 2. the previous democratically elected government is now disparaged by simply being labelled Islamist. Black is white and white is black.
×