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Lords Prayer/ Al Fatiha


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#26 Ya Aba 3abdillah

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:22 PM

There is no evidence Jesus ever carried a book


Neither did Mohamed (pbuh) .

#27 Son of Placid

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 08:18 PM

Neither did Mohamed (pbuh) .


So are we talking about metaphoric books now?

#28 Ya Aba 3abdillah

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:59 AM

So are we talking about metaphoric books now?


Not necessarily. The arabic word "Qur'an" literally means "that which is recited". The arabic word "kitaab" means "what is written". It's not necessary that all written text were binded into a book and held by the prophets. Muhammed recited, the words were written. Similar thing happened with Moses and Jesus and David.

#29 Christianlady

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:54 AM

Peace be WIth You

Before This Turns Out Something Very Big,

Let me tell you Ms Christianlady....

Yes Iƒ you think its similar, thats your understanding....But yes its true there are some things which are very forbidden...

The Most important is you saying the Prayer Infront Of an IDOL or IDOLS...

Desist from it...Good For you...So Miss Christain Lady...

Do you Desist from IDOLS from today????


Hello Ateef,

I am curious please. How old are you?

I have never worshipped an idol, by God's grace.

Your rant, by the way, reminds me of what my husband and I read in Daniel yesterday. :) It actually talked about an idol, and how God rescued men who refused to worship the idol. Have you ever read that, in the book of Daniel? I encourage you to read the Holy Scriptures God gave to Moses and the prophets. God is perfectly able to protect the Scriptures, though sadly some people allege they are corrupted. However, God did protect them.

Daniel 3 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"1 King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, sixty cubits high and six cubits wide,[a] and set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon. 2 He then summoned the satraps, prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials to come to the dedication of the image he had set up. 3 So the satraps, prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials assembled for the dedication of the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up, and they stood before it.
4 Then the herald loudly proclaimed, “Nations and peoples of every language, this is what you are commanded to do: 5 As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up. 6 Whoever does not fall down and worship will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace.”
7 Therefore, as soon as they heard the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp and all kinds of music, all the nations and peoples of every language fell down and worshiped the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.
8 At this time some astrologers[b] came forward and denounced the Jews. 9 They said to King Nebuchadnezzar, “May the king live forever! 10 Your Majesty has issued a decree that everyone who hears the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music must fall down and worship the image of gold, 11 and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace. 12 But there are some Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon—Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego—who pay no attention to you, Your Majesty. They neither serve your gods nor worship the image of gold you have set up.”
13 Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king, 14 and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? 15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”
16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”
19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?”
They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.”
25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”
26 Nebuchadnezzar then approached the opening of the blazing furnace and shouted, “Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out! Come here!”
So Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego came out of the fire, 27 and the satraps, prefects, governors and royal advisers crowded around them. They saw that the fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their heads singed; their robes were not scorched, and there was no smell of fire on them.
28 Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God."

Or do you wan me to post some of your own Bible and Torah Scriptures....To prove this....


Please post as many as you would like! May God bless your reading of His Scriptures!!! :) Please remember to pray and ask God for His wisdom while reading them.


Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


Aye, the above is what Jesus said. As you can see, Jesus did not say that the Holy Scriptures were corrupted, but rather that Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets, which are in the Scriptures.

Holy Quran

In the Name Of Allah,The Most Merciful, Most Compassionate

And I (Prophet Esa (Peace be with him) have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurat (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.

51. Truly! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path.


I do not believe that the Quran is true. However, it is good that you post what you believe to be true. That helps me understand what you believe and why.


Do you know which is the BOOK FROM WHICH EVEN THE LEAST STROKE OF PEN NOR EVEN THE SMALLEST LETTER HAS DISAPPEARED ???

1.Enjeel

2.Torah

Or

3.Quran


Let's think about this. When Jesus said that he came to fuilfill the Law and the Prophets, what had already been written? The Torah yes was written, and all of the Tanakh. The gospels had not been written, nor the Quran. So, the answer is 1. - the Torah (and all of the Tanakh) Jesus, by the way, quoted from the Tanakh. He did not say that the Tanakh was corrupted.

If ye search truthful with purity...So shall you find the truth by the Grace of Allah


I have found the Truth by God's grace! His name is Jesus.

John 14 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[Some manuscripts If you really knew me, you would know] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

#30 ateef

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 03:02 PM

I like you.Never Worshiped an Idol.Really Nice.

I like you love Prophet Esa (Peace Be Upon Him) and you have found the truth

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.







When He says these verses...It doesn't me only from him...








The Rest like muslims and jews are going to Hell,or not to the Lord...as Some false people preach.We are Nations,Every nation has its WARNER.





But Yes Do Not Excess Your Love for someone..















Every time Our Lord sends us the warner's to Nation's.

Initially Pagans Thrived In Middle East

Listen The Warner For Jews were Prophet Moses(Peace Be Upon Him).Everything from the Law Was Accomplished.And So the Nation Of Jewish was Formed.
The Scriptures Were with the People.As time Passed by People withered away broke the covenant Of the Lord.Followed Vain desires,Man Made Laws.A Part of Jews Got Corrupted

Then Came Prophet Esa (Peace Be Upon Him) For their Nation with Glad Tidings , To spread the Word of Lord,Everything from the Law Was Accomplished.But the sad truth is the a Part of the Jews Believed him not what he wanted to reform Of Their Belief.He preached the truth.And they Rejected him..And So the Nation Of Christians was Formed who did believe.

Now watch closely what the LORD is doing,He sends Prophet Esa , He is bringing forth the same Law.He is reminding the Jews of Truth But the problem is as the Part of Jews have got corrupted and following Vain Desires, they do not percieve that Prophet Esa Speaks of the same law.As the disease increased in their hearts of ignorance they reject him.

Now....

Time Passed by And Now again among Jews were lost, and their jealousy became wider as Christianity came into being.and they tried to suppress it..but yet it flourished...and time passed by

The Same Thing Happened to Christianity and got corrupted too.

And remained now in the Scene were Pagans , Jews , Christains of the Middle East( * anytime thought why everything happened in the Middle East).

Ok. Now the Pagan's Got their Warner Came Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) For their Nation with Glad Tidings , To spread the Word of Lord,Everything from the Law Was Accomplished.And He was The Last and Seal of Prophets.No Warner After Him.He spoke The Truth.!!! Yet a part of The Pagans Jews and Christians Do not believe.


But the sad truth is the a Part of the pagans Believed him not and followed Paganism , And a Part of Jews Believed him Not what he wanted to reform Of Torah.He preached the truth.And a Part of Christians Believed him Not what he wanted to reform Of Their beliefs..And So the Nation Of ISLAM was Formed..Book Of Qura'n Revealed.And The Law Of the Lord.

Do you sense here

Pagans Do not Accept Prophet Moses- Jews,

Jews not accept Prophet Esa-Christians

Jews,Pagans,Christians Do not Accept Prophet Muhammadh.


THE HOLY QURA'N IS TRUE.ITS Just The Wrappings on your Heart prevent you from Acknowledging and believing it.


Now Your Link


25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.



Listen I have seen you Closing Conversations With Peace With You,And God Bless You.


You heard me say,

I do not give to you as the world gives(With Fingers)

See in the verse says" Did You Heard Me Say", Does he say like the Christians(God Bless You) Or The Muslims(Peace Be WIth You) This gives you the clue to whom is he referring to.Who is the Comforter

prince of this world (Message for All the Nations as its World.Pagans,Christians,Jews)

will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you

(Reminded Everyone,Last Messenger,Last Warner)



Do Not Excess your Love and Shall you flourish.


And Here as a Gift Yet Again I share a Thing for you.Anytime have you noticed.

Everything Happened in The Middle East,

and

The Simplest way to know who is True Messenger is "Every Messenger was a Shephard "

#31 ateef

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 03:31 PM

And Hence you get another Clue to believe in the Qura'n. Every messenger a Shephard

Hope you understand..

Things Happened After Prophet Esa Also..Fake Messengers Came..Who Professed Lies(Example Who started Idol Worship in Christainity , Eating Unlawful Food)


And Also Came the True One.

Just Now you said Jesus Did Not Come to abolish the Law Right.And You Are close to Torah Then Quran right.

Now since Prophet Esa was a Jew..and he had the same law right.

THE JEWS DO NOT EAT FLESH OF SWINE,SO SHOULD YOU..


DO YOU DESIST FROM EATING SWINE AND UNCLEAN MEAT FROM TODAY???


Do it Its Good for You..I hope you have read in your Book.

#32 Son of Placid

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:21 PM

Not necessarily. The arabic word "Qur'an" literally means "that which is recited". The arabic word "kitaab" means "what is written". It's not necessary that all written text were binded into a book and held by the prophets. Muhammed recited, the words were written. Similar thing happened with Moses and Jesus and David.


That would def make more sense.

And Hence you get another Clue to believe in the Qura'n. Every messenger a Shephard Hope you understand.. Things Happened After Prophet Esa Also..Fake Messengers Came..Who Professed Lies(Example Who started Idol Worship in Christainity , Eating Unlawful Food) And Also Came the True One. Just Now you said Jesus Did Not Come to abolish the Law Right.And You Are close to Torah Then Quran right. Now since Prophet Esa was a Jew..and he had the same law right. THE JEWS DO NOT EAT FLESH OF SWINE,SO SHOULD YOU.. DO YOU DESIST FROM EATING SWINE AND UNCLEAN MEAT FROM TODAY??? Do it Its Good for You..I hope you have read in your Book.


Please tell me who started the idol worship in Christianity...

Then tell me, are you insisting Christian Lady become a Jew or a Muslim?

#33 ateef

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 03:46 AM

This is the Misconception...Son Of Placid...

I do Not want her to be a Muslim Or a Jew...

Let her Be a Christian.But know what is the truth.

But Follow the Law...It is the Same Law which prevailed

Brother It is In your Scriptures too not to eat the unclean meat...

Cant you see you have been given Options in this life...

Never did you hear the Parable of The Prophet Esa

Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a dragnet, that was cast into the sea, and gathered some fish of every kind, which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach. They sat down, and gathered the good into containers, but the bad they threw away. So will it be in the end of the world. The angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the righteous, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."


Now In the Parable the Bad ones are Thrown Out...

There is this

1. Unclean meat (Pork)
2. Clean Meat(Beef, Chicken , Other meat)

There are so many options given by the almighty for you to choose and eat from his bounties..

Can u see the Clear Picture...You have Options.So why do ye Deny staying away from it...

This was told to me by a Christian.

You know what The Things Of Satan Always Taste Good...and You cannot resist it....See the World...This is WHy They Like Unclean Meat..Hard Drinks..and Lots....

______________________________________________________

I myself do not know who started the IDOL WORSHIP...But my eyes have seen them worshipping....Idols...Depicting Prophet Esa , Mother Mary and sometimes Saints.

Idol Worship was the base of PAGANS.

Example

Arab Pagans..Who practiced it

The Egyptians...Who practiced it

So I can Guess The Romans Injected It Into The Christianity

Listen Son Of Placid, The Almighty Is All Hearing, All Knowing.

The Almighty does not require anything between Him and You..To answer your prayers..

#34 ateef

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 06:57 AM

I am curious please. How old are you?

I am Old Enough, My Hair Turned White..Old people Seldom Get Respect... :donno: :donno:

#35 ateef

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:47 AM

That would def make more sense.



Please tell me who started the idol worship in Christianity...

Then tell me, are you insisting Christian Lady become a Jew or a Muslim?


Read Above What I posted..Hope I have Made clear to you

#36 placid

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:17 AM

Hi Ruqaya’s Amal,

Quote from Post 1:
Its strikes me they they are quite similar.

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name - In the name of God the most beneficent, the most merciful (adressing God, praising)

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven - praise be to God, lord of the worlds, the most beneficent the most merciful, owner of the day of judgement (Gods dominion over earth and heaven and the end of days and the judgement)

Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our tresspasses (as we forgive those who tresspass against us) - thee alone we worship, thee alone we turn to for help(asking for sustenance/aid)

lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil - show us the straight path, the path that thou has favoured, not the path of those whove earnt that anger and gone astray (asking for help to resist the devil and recognise the good route to Him)

for thine is the kingdon, the power and the glory, forever, amen.

--- This is a very good comparison and a good topic.

It started out well and I would like to add some confirmation to the comparison.

I have a copy of the Pickthall translation of the Quran and he gives an intro to each Surah, so I will record it below:

Quote: Al-Fatihah, “The Opening,” or Fatihatu’l-Kitab, “The Opening of the Scripture, “ or Ummu’l-Quran, “The Essense of the Quran,” as it has been variously named, has been called the Lord’s Prayer of the Muslims. It is an essential part of all Muslim worship, public and private, and no solomn contract or transaction is complete unless it is recited. The date of revelation is uncertain, but the fact that it has always, from the very earliest times, formed a part of Muslim worship, there being no record or remembrance of its introduction, or of public prayer without it, makes it clear that it was revealed before the fourth year of the Prophet’s Mission (the tenth year before the Hijrah): because we know for certain that by that time congregational prayers were offered by the little group of Muslims in Mecca. In that year, as a result of insult and attack by the idolaters, the Prophet arranged for the services, which had till then been held out of doors, to take place in a private house.
The Surah is also often called Saba’an min al-Mathani, “Seven of the Oft-repeated” (verses being understood),
Surah 15:87, words which are taken as referring to this Surah. --- End of quote.

(The verse) Surah 15:87. We have given thee seven of the oft-repeated (verses) and the great Quran.

--- Since reading that in the intro to Surah 1, I have understood that this was a comparable common prayer for Muslims --- as the Lord’s prayer was, and is, a common prayer for Christians.

(I also agree with your comments in Post 5.)


Placid


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#37 Son of Placid

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:16 PM

I am curious please. How old are you?

I am Old Enough, My Hair Turned White..Old people Seldom Get Respect... :donno: :donno:


Us old people have to stick together. Under 70 working days left before retirement.

#38 placid

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:27 PM

Hi Ateef,

Cuote from Post 8:
Nothing was Copied,But yes The Almighty One Lord,Your Lord My Lord, Updated you , To Guide The Whole Mankind , And to free them From Errors.
What do you do in today's technology..
You use Windows 98 (Children Of Israel)
Then Comes Windows Xp (People Of the Book) You update yourself
Then At the End came Windows 7 (Submitters) You should update yourself right...But ALAS some people prefer not to get updated and move on....
Windows 7=Advocate = Counselor = Comforter = Spirit of truth = Holy Spirit

RESPONSE: --- The Bible has not been updated but rather remains intact.
Your analogy may work with technology but the Scriptures remain the same.

We have the Old Testament (Covenant with Abraham and the Children of Israel).
--- And the New Testament (Covenant with God and all people), --- the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ, and the giving of the Holy Spirit, --- [the Advocate, Counselor, Comforter, Spirit of truth, Holy Spirit], which was explained in John 14, 15, and 16, --- and given as promised on the Day of Pentecost, Acts 2.

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad some 600 years later and his Mission was to remove idolatry from Arabia and bring the idolaters back to the worship of One God, --- or they were to leave the country. --- His Mission was accomplished in year 10 of the Hijrah, shortly before his death, when he declared the end of idolatry, and “peace” to the Muslims.
--- However, the peace was short lived.

--- The Quran was not an ‘update,’ --- but it was a ‘confirmation’ of the former Scriptures, Surah 3:3 --- and a teaching in Arabic to bring the people back to faith in God.

We could also clarify that only what is contained in the Quran was revealed by God through the angel Gabriel to Muhammad, --- so anything in a hadith or commentary is the writing of men, and not an ‘update’ of the Quran, as some would suggest.

--- Muhammad said, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”
Therefore, any hadiths that were supposedly from him are not part of what can be called Quran 1, --- the Surahs from 1- 114.

--- Our fruitful discussions have to be based on the OT, the NT, and the Quran.
I do not find any place in the Quran where Gabriel revealed that the former Scriptures were changed, --- the only mention is that the Jews distorted their teaching, --- but that didn’t change any wording in the former Scriptures.

I will comment more later


Placid



#39 Christianlady

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:35 PM

I am curious please. How old are you?


Hello Ateef,

I will introduce myself without giving my name, hmm? :) I am a 34 years old lady, am very happily married to a wonderful Christian man who is also 34 years old. He is fine with me writing on forums, although he has 0% interest in forums. I grew up in a lovely Christian home with my parents and three little sisters. When I was 6 years old, I accepted Jesus as my Savior. However, as a teenager and in my 20's, I wandered away from God but thank God that He has brought me back and by His grace I am growing in my relationship with Him through Jesus!!!



I am Old Enough, My Hair Turned White..Old people Seldom Get Respect... :donno: :donno:


I apologize. I had no idea you were my Dad's or Papaw's (Grandfather) age. I thought you were a teen for some reason, but I mean no disrespect.

Right now I don't have very much time to write, but if God wills, I hope to write and reply to your above posts later.

Peace and God bless you

#40 ateef

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:22 AM

Hello Ateef,

I will introduce myself without giving my name, hmm? :) I am a 34 years old lady, am very happily married to a wonderful Christian man who is also 34 years old. He is fine with me writing on forums, although he has 0% interest in forums. I grew up in a lovely Christian home with my parents and three little sisters. When I was 6 years old, I accepted Jesus as my Savior. However, as a teenager and in my 20's, I wandered away from God but thank God that He has brought me back and by His grace I am growing in my relationship with Him through Jesus!!!


I apologize. I had no idea you were my Dad's or Papaw's (Grandfather) age. I thought you were a teen for some reason, but I mean no disrespect.

Right now I don't have very much time to write, but if God wills, I hope to write and reply to your above posts later.

Peace and God bless you


I know you respect people and not those of arrogant...Thru Prophet Esa(Peace Be upon Him)...Follow him...Surely shall you be guided...

But seek Everything with Truth...and Reason ...

Just a Little more effort ...you see things the more further you go..

As you are referring the Old Testament...and New ...

Its my request to you...To make a Point to Read The Holy Quran...also so that you may seek further..


Peace Be With You and The Blessings Of Allah.

#41 Ruq

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:06 PM

O.o Ok. I was refering to the meaning of course. Although incidentally i do love the English language; it has a richness due to its many influences and i enjoy the syllabic accentuation/stress timing that lends a power and rhythm to English poetry. I also love the diversity of dialect and accent, particularly in the UK. But i also love to hear Arabic, especially Quran recitation, which i am trying to learn, although very much a beginner.

Edited by ~Ruqaya's Amal~, 15 March 2012 - 08:14 PM.

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#42 Son of Placid

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:59 AM

but we don't know the meaning as the english prayer does not make any sense.


You're still kidding, right?

#43 Christianlady

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:56 PM

YOU KNOW WHAT CHRISTIAN LADY

WHEN PROPHET MUSA CAME HE DEFIED THE PAGANS THE EGYPTIANS WHO PRACTICED IDOLATERY AND


Hello Ateef,

God sent Moses, a descendant of Levi, son of Jacob (Israel) son of Isaac son of Abraham to rescue the children of Israel out of slavery in Egypt, to take them to the Promised Land, and to give them specific commands. God did not send Moses to convert Egyptian people, nor take Egyptian people to the Promised land, nor give Egyptian people the commands in the Torah.

Exodus 3 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[Masoretic Text; Samaritan Pentateuch (see Acts 7:32) fathers] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
7 The LORD said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”

WHEN PROPHET ESA CAME HIS CHALLENGE WAS TO DEFY THE PAGANISM AND ADULTERATED RELIGION OF SOME HIGH PROFILE CORRUPTED JEWS. HENCE HIS OWN RECIEVED HIM NOT


Jesus came for many reasons, including the following:

Deuteronomy 18 (NIV) - I boldened all.

"15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.” 17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. "

1 Chronicles 17 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" “‘I declare to you that the LORD will build a house for you: 11 When your days are over and you go to be with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He is the one who will build a house for me, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. 14 I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever.’”
15 Nathan reported to David all the words of this entire revelation."

Psalm 2 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.”

7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession."


Isaiah 9 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this. "

Isaiah 53 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[Or From arrest] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[
Or generation considered / that he was cut off from the land of the living, / that he was punished for the transgression of my people?]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[Hebrew though you make] his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint); Masoretic Text does not have the light of life.] and be satisfied[Or (with Masoretic Text) He will see the fruit of his suffering / and will be satisfied];
by his knowledge[Or by knowledge of him] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,Or many]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[Or numerous]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."


Malachi 3 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty. 2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,"

Matthew 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua, which means the LORD saves.] because he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[Isaiah 7:14] (which means “God with us”)."

Luke 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

Luke 19 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

John 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

John 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.”
44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
46 “Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” Nathanael asked.
“Come and see,” said Philip.
47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
48 “How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”
49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

John 10 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[Or kept safe] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

AND WHEN THE SEAL OF PROPHETS CAME PROPHET MUHAMMADH HIS CHALLENGE WAS TO DELIVER THE LAW TO PAGAN ARABS, CHRISTIANS WHO WERE CORRUPTED BELIEF BY ROMANS...
AND ALSO THE JEWS WHO WERE CORRUPTED...


AND AS YOU CAN SEE THE SENSE IN MY POST..BIRDS OF THE SAME FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER...


Muhammad taught that the Scriptures were corrupted. However, God did not allow His Scriptures to be corrupted. Jesus did not teach that the Scriptures were corrupted, but rather that he (Jesus) fulfills the Law and the Prophets, which are in the Scriptures. Christians believe God is able to protect the Scriptures, and did, no matter what man says.

Matthew 5 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus read the Scriptures and quoted from them.

Luke 4 (NIV) - I boldened all.

"14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[Isaiah 61:1,2 (see Septuagint); Isaiah 58:6]

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

(bismillah)

In The Name of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì , The Most Beneficent



Thank you for replying! :D


Hello Khadim uz Zahra,

I am sorry; it has been a busy week! If God wills, I hope to reply to you later. :)

Peace and God bless you

#44 Ruq

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:35 PM

...the meaning as the english prayer does not make any sense , if it was in original aramaic than it will mean something ,
yes english language is very captivating from a dark side...the fiction english used in the prayer is for the fiction world of persons, corporations and the living dead.
(You cannot be a Verb)
:Quranic-Arabic. is for the living man or woman , of soul, consciousness and faith.
Get to know your english language , it's a very clever deception that this world has been thrown into , including all religions, business , law,and society that depends on this language, and most do.
peace .




..ahuh...ahuh

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#45 :Sami

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:55 PM

"ignorance is bliss..."




#46 :Sami

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:29 PM

Here's the corrected version of the prayer , in proper syntax , quantum english , with nouns (facts ).


FOR THE FATHER OF THE PEOPLE IS WITH THE CREATION BY THE FATHER.
WITH THE KNOWLEDGE IN THE HEAVEN IS WITH THE HOLY-NAME OF THE FATHER.
FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH IS FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE FATHER.
FOR THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER IS IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SPIRIT IS FOR THE UNITY WITH THE FATHER.
FOR THE FREEDOM OF THE ACTIONS IS WITH THE KNOWLEDGE BY THE TRUTH.
FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE EARTH IS FOR THE LIFE OF THE PEOPLE.
FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FATHER IS WITH THE PROTECTION FOR THE PEOPLE.
FOR THE TRUTH OF THE PEOPLE IS WITH THE PATH INTO THE HEAVEN.
FOR THE TEACHING OF THE PEOPLE IS WITH THE TRUTH OF THE PEOPLE.
FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE DAY IS FOR THE PRODUCTION(WORKING) AND LEARNING-SKILLS OF THE PEOPLE.
FOR THE WRONGS (SINS) AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE IS WITH THE ACTIONS OF THE PEOPLE.
FOR THE SINS (TEMPTATIONS OF THE FLESH) OF THE PEOPLE IS FOR THE WRONGS AGAINST OUR NEIGHBOR, FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE PEOPLE IN THE FORGIVENESS OF THOSE WRONG-DECISIONS.
FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE DEBTS ARE OF THE RESPONSIBLITY IN THE TRUTH.
FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE AWARENESS ARE FOR THE FORGIVING WITH THE TRUTH FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE PEOPLE-LEADER IS WITH THE TEACHING WITH THE TRUTH.
FOR THE EVIL OF THE PEOPLE IS FOR THE LACK OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
FOR THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH IS FOR THE FREEDOM OF THE PEOPLE AGAINST THE EVIL OF THE DARKNESS. (-LACK OF THE KNOWLEDGE)
FOR THE PEOPLE ARE WITH THIS AGREEMENT.


I am working on the correct english translation in quantum, of :Sura-Al-Fatiha., stayed tuned ,probably be the first time in history you will witness the correct quantum english translation of the glorious :Quran.

#47 Son of Placid

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:50 AM

Try this

No idea where your quantum english comes from. Maybe it's the math that messes everything up.

#48 placid

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:23 AM

Quote from Post 4:
La’nat said: --- it's a shame there are those who are so deluded to believe Prophet Muhammad heard this prayer when there was no Arabic translation of the gospels during his ministry;

Quote from Post 10:
ChristianLady asked: --- Do you think that the Christians in Arabia during the time when Muhammad was alive did not know the Lord's prayer and thus did not tell anyone about what Jesus taught? (It doesn't matter what language... the meaning is the same, so if one understands by God's grace the meaning and can say and/or write it in one's own language, that is what is important.)

Quote from Post 11:
Khadim said: --- Firstly, there were not much Christians in the city the Prophet of Allah had lived most of his life in - Mecca - so he would not have had much exposure to Christianity in Arabic, or Arabia. Therefore, LMM's point also stands as valid.


*** I want to respond to these three posts by saying that Muhammad’s wife Khadijah, was a Christian, so she would be very familiar with the Lord’s Prayer.

--- (That she was a Christian was written recently in one of the topics here, which verifies what I have stated before.)
Further evidence is that on their return to Mecca from their month’s retreat, where Muhammad had the vision and received the call to be God’s messenger, this is recorded in Mr Pickthall’s intro:

Quote: On their return to Mecca she (Khadijah) took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, a very old man “who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians,” who declared his belief that the heavenly messenger that came to Moses of old had come to Muhammad, and that he was chosen as the Prophet of his people. --- End of quote.

Also, quote: The early biographers tell how his wife Khadijah “tried the Spirit which came to him and proved it to be good.” --- End of quote.

--- (Christians are instructed ‘to try, or test, the spirits to see if they are of God,’ and this is the kind of test she no doubt used, --- which we use often.)
1 John 4:1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
--- (False prophets are those who speak by a spirit other than the Spirit of God.)

By 600 the NT had been translated into many languages so they would have it in Arabic as well, --- as is recorded in the
Zondervan Bible Dictionary.

Quote: The Old and New Testaments appeared very early in translations. The OT was translated into Greek (the LXX) between 250 and 150 BC, and other translations in Greek appeared soon after the beginning of the Christian era. Parts, at least, of the OT were rendered into Syriac as early as the first century, and a Coptic translation appeared probably in the third century.
(The Latin Vulgate was translated by the scholar Jerome by 400, which is also the dating of the Codex Siniaticus and the Codex Vaticanus.)

The NT was translated into Latin and Syriac by 150, and into Coptic by 200. In subsequent centuries versions appeared in the Armenian, Gothic, Ethiopic, Ethiopic, Georgian, Arabic, Persian and Slavonic languages. --- End of Quote.

Consider this, --- that Muhammad travelled as a businessman and trader for Khadijah and her husband before the husband died, and Muhammad had gained the reputation of “the trustworthy.”

--- Muhammad was not an idolater and he was longing for the religion of Abraham and tried to find out what had been its teaching.
There were others as well who were upright and believed that ‘the way of truth to be right conduct.’
Mr Pickthall’s intro says:

Quote: These Hunafa (as they were called) did not form a community. They were the agnostics of their day, each seeking truth by the light of his own inner consciousness. --- It was Muhammad’s practice to retire with his family for a month of every year to a cave in the desert for meditation. His place of retreat was Hira, a desert hill not far from Mecca, and his chosen month was Ramadan, the month of heat. It was there one night toward the end of his quiet month that the first revelation came to him when he was forty years old. --- End of quote.

As I quoted before, on their return to Mecca, they went to Khadijah’s cousin who was a Christian, so Muhammad would have easy access to the Scriptures through his wife and cousin. --- As a business man who travelled, he may have known other language, but not been fluent enough to read and write them.

So, you see, to suggest that Muhammad was somewhat illiterate is wrong as he had a whole business career before God called him to be His Prophet and messenger.

However, Muhammad would not have had Spiritual knowledge before God ‘inspired’ him with His Holy Spirit, --- Surah 42:
52. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

--- So God gave Muhammad the knowledge of the Scriptures and Faith to believe God and be obedient to His leading.


Placid



#49 Christianlady

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:54 AM

(bismillah)

In The Name of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì , The Most Beneficent



Thank you for replying! :D


Hello Khadim uz Zahra,

Thanks for your patience. :)

Let's go along your line of thought. Even if we say that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) did interact with the Christians and, therefore, was a false Prophet,


Most Christians do not believe that Muhammad is a false prophet because he interacted with Christians, but rather Christians believe Muhammad is a false prophet because he contradicted the Tanakh (the Scripture God gave to the Israelites) and the New Testament, which shows how Jesus fulfills and will fulfill the Scripture. Christians believe the New Testament is Scripture as well, and that God did not allow Scripture (either the Tanakh - Old Testament- or the New Testament) to be corrupted, so Muhammad's claims of it being corrupted and denying that Jesus did indeed die and that God rose him fro the dead, shows that he is a false prophet.

I still don't understand why he would decide to preach the Jueo-Christian teachings.


Some Christian scholars who have studied Muhammad's life and teachings speculate that Muhammad heard the gospel (the good news of Jesus rescuing people from their sins by dying on the cross and God raising him from the dead) and yet rejected this. Jewish Orthodox people, for example, believe that the Tanakh is true and has not been corrupted, and yet they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus being the Messiah however is the foundation of Christian beliefs... Judeo-Christian go together because Jesus, a Jewish man, a descendant of King David, is believed to be the Messiah by many people, both Jews and Gentiles. It is possible that Muhammad liked much of what he heard from the Jewish people and Christians, instead of what the religion of his tribe taught. However, just like many Jewish people do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, so Muhammad did not accept what Jesus did once for all for people, even though he did accept that Jesus would come back again.

After all, Christians and Jews would have constituted of a very small - and insignificant - minority on the Arabian peninsula; ergo, it would not make sense for him to take their teachings, especially if we consider how many hardships (like for example, an economic boycott for three years which crippled his tribe and the constant persecution of himself, his family and followers) he had to go through.


There are people who endure persecution if they believe strongly what they believe. Here in the USA, the Mormons, a group of people who adhere to some Judeo-Christian teachings, and follow Joseph Smith's teachings, who claimed an angel came and gave him the Book of Mormon, suffered persecution a long time ago. It is very interesting the similarities between Mormonism and Islam, though Islam predates Mormonism.

Why would a false Prophet ever propagate these teachings when there was nothing in it for him? Why go through so much trouble when he could have just become one of the priests of the temple or, as the pagans had once offered, why did he not become their ruler, get wealth or women from them? Why would a false Prophet reject all these and teach that which did not benefit him?


Before Muhammad died, did he not conquer and rule many cities in Arabia, including Medina and Mecca? How many wives did he have? How many captives did he have? Was he always poor? Do you think he did not get wealth or women from other people?

Coming to the question of the Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) 's alleged illiteracy, I think you need to consider the fact that there are two fundamental divisions in Islam: Shias and Sunnis. What you are stating is the Sunni belief and Shias, for the most part, believe he was able to write but this was not due to learning from someone - he was unschooled, not unlettered! We believe that, yes, he could read and write but this was taught to him by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì but he never used these abilities because, like many today do, people would doubt his message and claim that they are not his teachings but that he copied them! This is why he never read or wrote.


Do you think Muhammad ever read the Tanakh and the New Testament for himself, praying and asking God for wisdom through His Holy Spirit? I personally do not think he did, though I do think he heard stories from the Jewish and Christian people that he came into contact with... as a merchant, he more than likely did business with many Jewish and Christian people, and he knew to send his followers to the Christian king of Abyssinia, because he knew that the Christian king would not mistreat them. Sadly, there are many Christians in that time and today who are Christian in name/tradition, though they do not know the Bible very well. I am very glad that the Christian king of Abyssinia did not mistreat the Muslims, which is actually in the spirit of Jesus' teachings, because Jesus did not teach persecuting people. However, from this king's later response to Muhammad's "invitation" to accept Islam, it seems this king did not understand the Bible very well.




Let me ask a simple question: before Moses (as) did the Children of Israel not follow different rules? In fact, don't Christians today differ in their rulings from the Jews?


Jesus obeyed the rules that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. Both Moses and Jesus are Israelites... brothers. The Children of Israel are the descendants of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) Moses is of the tribe of Levi, one of the sons of Jacob. Jesus is of the tribe of Judah, another of the sons of Jacob. Jesus did not abrogate the laws that God gave to the children of Israel. Rather, he fulfills them, including the laws concerning animal sacrifice.

Now, the area where I think many people get confused is concerning the differences between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. Peter, the leader of the 12 apostles who Jesus chose, who walked and talked with Jesus, made it a point to obey the law God gave to his people through Moses. That's why he was so surprised by a vision he had and a message he received from God's Holy Spirit (who Jesus had promsied to his apostles.)

Acts 10 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three[a] men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”
21 Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”
22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.
Peter at Cornelius’s House

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”
30 Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[or other languages] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days."

Now, later there was a rift because many circumcised believers (Jews) were preaching that Gentiles needed to be circumcised and essentially become Jewish, observing all the laws God gave to the children of Israel through Moses. However, God gave the 12 apostles Jesus chose wisdom through His Spirit, that the Gentiles did not need to become Jewish and observe the specific commands God gave to the children of Israel, in order to be saved. Please see Acts 15.

So in order to simply answer your following questions:

Let me ask a simple question: before Moses (as) did the Children of Israel not follow different rules?


The Children of Israel before Moses did not have specific rules... they were merely the ancestors of Jacob who moved to Egypt during a time of famine, where their brother Joseph had been cruelly sold into slavery by other sons of Jacob out of jealousy but who God had raised up to the 2nd in authority position after the Pharoah. Directly before and during Moses' time, the Children of Israel were slaves, vulnerable to the injustices of their Egyptian masters. However, God heard their cries and sent Moses to rescue them from slavery, to lead them to the "Promised Land" where Isreal is a nation once again now, and to give them specific laws to follow.

In fact, don't Christians today differ in their rulings from the Jews?


The vast majority of Christians today are Gentiles, not Jews. As is explained above in Acts, there is a reason why Gentiles do not become Jews in order to follow Jesus. Now, there are Jewish Christians, often called Messianic Jews, as well as exGentiles who desire to be Jewish. who do observe as much as possible (with the exception of the animal sacrifices) to follow the Law God gave to the Children of Israel through Moses. However, for a long time, the church leaders have been mostly Gentile, because the apostles who Jesus chose were mostly killed (though a few, particularly John in particular died) and most Jewish Christians were heavily persecuted. Some more than likely joined in the rebellion against Roman oppression, which led to Rome completely destroying Jerusalem. Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed. So the vast majority of Christians for awhile were mainly Gentiles. However, there are more and more Jewish people who God is showing that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. Christians believe that in the end times, more and more Jewish people will become Christian because God will open their eyes to Jesus being the Messiah, which for so long, many Jewish people have rejected. By the way, Christians killing and persecuting Jewish people for not accepting Jesus is against Jesus' teachings, because Jesus did not say to kill those who reject him, but to love.

Before Abraham (as) there were no Jews or Children of Israel to talk of so did those people - and the Prophets (peace be upon them all) assigned to them, such as Prophet Noah (as) - not have any laws? Did they not have any instructions from God?


Many Jewish Orthodox people believe that God gave what is now called the "Seven Laws of Noah" or "Noachide laws" to all people, beginning from Adam and Eve. Have you ever wondered why Jewish Orthodox people do not strive to convert people to Judaism? One of the reasons, one of my darling Jewish Orthodox friend tells me, is because Jewish Orthodox people do not believe that those who are not of the Judaism believe go to hell, but rather believe they go to Heaven if they follow (even if they don't personally know them) the 7 Laws of Noah. Isn't that interesting?

Obviously, they did but these were not the same as the laws of Moses (as) .


Have you ever read the 7 laws of Noah? This link is an interesting commentary about them: http://www.simpletor...n-laws-of-noah/

Below are the 7 laws of Noah:

1. Not to deny God.
2. Not to blaspheme God.
3. Not to murder.
4. Not to engage in incestuous, adulterous, bestial or homosexual relationships.
5. Not to steal.
6. Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal.
7. To set up courts to ensure obedience to the other six laws.
http://www.jewishvir...ahide_Laws.html

When Moses (as) came, the old laws were abrogated and, instead, the news laws he had brought took their place.


Actually, Moses did not abrogate these old laws, but rather God gave him specified commandments for the children of Israel. Please note how the ten commandments are extremely similar to the 7 laws of Noah. The many other commandments/rules are specifications for the children of Israel in obeying the 10 commandments.

Deuteronomy 5 (NIV) - I boldened some.

1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
6 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
7 “You shall have no other gods before[b] me.
8 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
11 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
16 “Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
17 “You shall not murder.
18 “You shall not commit adultery.
19 “You shall not steal.
20 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
21 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
23 When you heard the voice out of the darkness, while the mountain was ablaze with fire, all the leaders of your tribes and your elders came to me. 24 And you said, “The LORD our God has shown us his glory and his majesty, and we have heard his voice from the fire. Today we have seen that a person can live even if God speaks with them. 25 But now, why should we die? This great fire will consume us, and we will die if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any longer. 26 For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? 27 Go near and listen to all that the LORD our God says. Then tell us whatever the LORD our God tells you. We will listen and obey.”
28 The LORD heard you when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me, “I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good. 29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!
30 “Go, tell them to return to their tents. 31 But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess.”
32 So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. 33 Walk in obedience to all that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess."

So, it is crucial to understand that Moses did not abrogate old commandments, but rather God gave him specific commandments for the children of Israel.


Similarly, when Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him and his progeny) came, the laws he brought were now the "current edition" to be followed and the older laws had become obsolete.


The above is not Scriptural. As Jesus very clearly said, he did not come to abrogate, but to fulfill. Muhammad's claims are then not Scriptural.

Matthew 5 (NIV) - I boldened some of the words of Jesus.

" 17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


Perhaps, a simple answer as to why Jesus (as) did not condemn the Scriptures of the Jews was because, at that time, they had not been corrupted.


Of course they had not been corrupted. Christians very firmly believe that God did not allow the Scripture to be corrupted, neither before Jesus' time, nor during Jesus' time, nor during the time of Jesus' apostles who Jesus chose, who walked and talked with Jesus and taught the people about Jesus, till nowadays, till when Jesus comes back.

After all, Jews did not believe in a concept of Trinity as Christians do.


The New Testament does not specifically teach the concept of Trinity. if you read Acts, you will see that the apostles of Jesus, who are Jewish, do not say that the people need to believe that God is Triune. Paul, also Jewish, does not say that people need to believe that God is Triune.

The Trinity doctrine is just a way people have of understanding how God relates to mankind.

Moreover, he also did condemn the Jews for the wrong they were doing.


Aye, but Jesus did not say that the Scriptures were corrupt. Rather, he showed that he is the fulfillment of the Scriptures. Also, please remember that Jesus was not an Arab or English or Irish or of any other ethnicity, but rather is Jewish, a descendant of King David, of the tribe of Judah, son of Jacob (Israel) son of Isaac son of Abraham. He was one of them, a Jewish person.


Similarly, Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him and his progeny) condemned those beliefs and practices of the Jews and Christians where they had deviated.


1. Muhammad was not a descendant of Israel (Jacob.)
2. Muhammad did not follow the Law that God gave to the children of Israel, like Jesus did.
3. Muhammad claimed that the Scripture God gave to the Israelites was corrupt and that his version of stories was correct.
4. Jesus did not kill anyone, nor did he order his followers to kill anyone, nor did he desire any person to be evicted from the land of Israel, nor did he enslave anyone, whereas Muhammad did order the deaths of people who did not accept him, did desire for Jewish people and Christians to be evicted from Arabia, and did enslave people.

There are huge differences between Muhammad and Jesus!!!

No, you did not hurt or offend me and if I have offended you the slightest bit, then I am extremely sorry. :)


You have not offended me at all, and again, I hope you understand that the differences between Christian beliefs and Islamic beliefs are not insults, but rather are differences. I hope I have not offended you and if I did, I am sorry, as it is not my intention. Rather, my intention is to explain what I and many people believe.

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady, 17 March 2012 - 11:10 AM.


#50 placid

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:29 PM

Hi Christianlady,

I appreciate all of the Scripture you enter to clarify the subject, and hopefully it will be read.

If you notice in Post 52 above, I had written about Muhammad's access to the Scriptures and, no doubt, the Lord's prayer because his wife Khadijah was a Christian as was her cousin.

I don't find any place in the Quran where Muhammad said the former Scriptures were corrupt, --- but rather approved of them.

--- Where do you find this in the Quran? --- Can you give the verses?
Quote: Muhammad claimed that the Scripture God gave to the Israelites was corrupt and that his version of stories was correct.

I hope you will read Post 52 above for the sake of what history records about the intelligence of Muhammad and the availability of the Scriptures during his time.






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