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Are You A Feminist?


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#76 Çåá ÇáÈíÊ

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:13 PM

I define a muslim woman as very sexualised.


That's interesting. So you're saying that, in a way, the headscarf acts as a reminder that the hair is something sexual, which is the reason they're very sexualized? Whereas, on the contrary, a woman who dresses decently but doesn't cover her hair isn't sexualized because she doesn't emphasize on the fact that her hair has anything to do with anything sexual or erotic, am I right?

Yep, that was a great post! Hijab is subjective. The concept behind hijab ie modesty, is applicable to all times and cultures - but hijab is only one form of preserving one's modesty and is only applicable in past societies in Eastern parts of the world.


Thank you.

Today, I listened to a new lecture by Sayed Ammar Nakshwani on the Hijab. He pointed out that those who say that it is only applicable to the former Arabian society and culture, should look at the daughter of Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, Sayeda Zainab Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã who wore the veil but didn't conform to Arabian culture because she is the walking Quran. I thought it was an interesting point to consider, but then again, she also wore the face veil and this has no basis in the Quran or Narratives, so why did she wear it? Either it was culture or this was just extra modesty. What do you think?

Really I think muslim men go on about hijab so much because they have difficulties in controlling their sexual desires...which is their own parents fault for bringing them up without interaction with the opposite sex.


lol this is actually very true. Muslim guys are brought up without interacting with opposite gender, but this automatically instils a preconception in their minds that women are a sexual object. It just does the opposite.

This is where I have a problem with shia islam. which allows and sometimes encourages mutah and polygamy. Other faiths such as Christianity hold the value that sex outside marriage is wrong because it devalues marriage and breaks down family and society. From my own experience in growing up in the West, I too hold this value. Its not to do with the physical aspect of hymen, rather its the concept of saving yourself til marriage, because marriage is sacred, its not a joke and its not done for the sake of it.


Who said Mut'ah is a joke? Who said it's not sacred. Its a marriage contract, but you just fixate a time. It's very practical to use, considering the fact that you can then decide whether you want to move on to the next level with your temporary partner, onto permanent marriage.

Also, there's no divorce in mut'ah.



#77 Mehvish

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:44 PM

Ok - no offence intended - I would define a muslim woman as a sexual object. And that she enjoys it and does not see this as a problem. The fact that she enjoys it as much as a man, means that I also define a Muslim woman as equal to a man.


This isn't offensive at all. I agree with you to a large extent. I think Muslims, but also other cultures, have done a lot to sexualize every part of the female body.
The whole concept of hijab sexualizes the hair doesn't it? I mean, without this concept of covering our hair, would Muslims really believe that hair is erotic? or sexy? Other cultures certainly don't.
In Africa, for example, female breasts were never considered erotic until European colonists required women to start covering them.

So I agree that Muslim women have been highly sexualized, and this, to a large extent, reduces equality. But this does not fall into the fact that a woman who enjoys sex is necessarily equal to men. Because men aren't sexualized in the same way women are in public life (outside the bedroom).

I also disagree with you because I think its problematic when women conform to the sexualized roles that have been defined by culture, because this only perpetuates the problem don't you think?

Modesty is in manner. In the past it would have been in dress, however now, hijab is a kind of fashion. No I didn't feel liberated, I actually felt as though my freedom got taken away from me. For eg, i suddenly felt like I couldnt hang out with the hijabi friends i had or socialise with the opposite sex because I was not as accepted (by muslims). I dont think removing my hijab has changed me as a person; but it has probably led me to befriend people who I wouldnt have otherwise and therefore I have become a bit more Western (and subsequently anti-western).


This is actually very interesting. Thanks for sharing. I've actually always wondered what it would be like to take it off. It would be cool to start a thread and compare experiences, but from what I've observed there are not many the same boat as you on this board.


Sometimes I think its best if men also deal with womens issues because women are too involved. For example, a man would constitute sexual assault to be only extreme incidents. This is a good thing because otherwise, according to the female definition of assault, most women would be victims and therefore more women would suffer as victims. Also, consdiering women are naturally more emotional, maternal and caring, if women were to decide the laws regarding birth control, abortion etc, contraception would be abused. Sometimes hard firm laws are required for the betterment of the majority of society as a whole, even if this means a minority of women will suffer as a consequence; and I believe men are best suited in doing this.


But you don't think that men abuse their own privileges? I really disagree with you here. Male politicians play with women's issues all the time to gain popularity. In the US, for example, Obama recently signed a bill to reduce access to Plan B, which is a contraceptive pill also known as the "morning after" pill. It prevents women from getting pregnant should they have been raped, or if their condom broke, etc (but its not an abortion pill - it simply makes it impossible for a baby to be conceived). It was a clear publicity stunt from the perspective of American politics, because it was a move that neutralized the Republicans who weren't cooperating with him. But from a woman's perspective this is horrible; there are so many women who get raped everyday and rely on the pill to make sure they aren't impregnated.

In other respects too we see women's rights being abused: pornography laws, sex abuse cases (both in the West and in Muslim countries), inheritance rights (especially in the subcontinent).

I don't think men have done a great job at handling women's issues at all. Nothing can change, in my opinion, unless women actually get involved in the field.
No one is objective - and its not like men would never implicitly be involved in the law making process even if more women were involved in politics.

- No, I do not consider myself a feminist. I define feminism as women attempting to take male roles...

- I dislike the idea of the term “Muslim Womanism”. I believe that role confusion a significant cause of the decay in western society.



Why would you say that? This is a highly misinformed definition. All feminists simply demand some form of gender equity. Not all feminists are the same, and it would be wrong to categorize feminism under one general idea.
In your opinion, are women's rights in the Muslim world "perfect"? Do you think they are, generally, treated as they should be?


- I feel that behaviour has an impact on how females are treated by males.. ie, dress, places frequented and friends a woman spends time with. No, I have not always been treated fairly or respectfully by men. I do not feel inferior to men, but I have felt intimidated.



So you blame women's behavior for men not being able to behave themselves? What do you think women should do to change themselves?
If you are talking about modesty - even women who wear hijab and dress Islamically appropriate are still subject to all the problems "western" women are.


I don't consider my myself a feminist, because (as someone pointed out), feminism is not a word to describe real women's rights. It is a word used to describe women's cries to assume male roles. Why don't we see men protesting to be recognized as cooks, bringing up children, sewing, etc and calling it masculinism? its quite ridiculous. Women who are feminist in that sense of the word need to be more graceful: what we have is something to be proud of. Women make or break a community; decent, chaste, pious, loving, caring, patient women will bring up the best children, support and influence the best of husbands - and usually won't even ask for anything in return. This is the power of a pious woman. The opposite - a impious, unchaste woman is very much like what Imam Ali (a.s) mentions in his sermon ... like a scorpian.


Again, feminists generally are not fighting for men's roles. They generally, fight to varying degrees, for equality and to be treated fairly in areas of law, political society and the media. Most feminists say things that are quite in line with Islam's views on women. There are some feminists like Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin who have actually tried to outlaw different kinds of pornography. Doesn't that sound like something you would agree with?


Women should DEFINITELY be more involved in islamic knowledge, we need more female scholars as a matter of urgency, particularly in the western countries - more 'western' speakers who have really studied the traditional way. As for interpreting fiqh rules, it takes many many years of study to reach ijtihad level, and even then, according to our scholars women cannot be followed in matters of fiqh. I don't understand why, perhaps its because women have so many other responsibilities that this one is best left to men - who knows. Nevertheless, I don't think fiqh rulings are 'unfair' - anyway, they aren't designed or taken out from 'male scholars' - these scholars just interpret what Allh wants from us according to the Imam's and the H.Prophet. The rules of menstruation are generally very much misunderstood anyway...

To emphasise: male shcolars DONT take out rules from their pockets. They research ahadith and quranic ayahs, and make rules according to these, so its not their 'opinion' rather its their 'interpretation'

personally I would be very cautious in claiming there is a bias present.


There is always a bias present in the interpretation of anything. How do you know men who interpret the laws aren't like the men here on shiachat who have been clearly brainwashed by precepts of their own cultures?



West , west ,west ,west and some more west

Why dont we learn something from the west? Fighting for humanity and justice for all? The west that you cant stand opened the doors for you when your own countries kicked you out, they teached and gave you rights to . Islam was the 1st relgion to give woman rights and the west have taken that idea from us.

Why do we just look at the negatives , why not adopted the postives?

When you start studying islam thats when you question, you dont just study you need to understand why that concpte is like that and you have to put it to practices. The problem isint the islamic law within it self but with the way muslims addresses certain conceptes. Yes the way a person teachs ir speaks about an issue determines whether a person will accepte or reject the concpte.

Socity is dominated by men. Imam Ali(As) said " One who comes into power often oppresses", very true in alot of causes.
Lets have look at how sone men use relgion and power. Woman get raped and some muslim make them look like crimanilies . The woman gets raped and imprisend under the act of "zina" and adultery, the woman gets the punishment and the men walks out like his the victim under islamic law apperently.

Why dont they take the womans word? Why does she need four witness, why do they look at her like shes the one breaking the laws. Why do they use islam to justife unjusticiful acts? If woman are seen equal in gods eyes then why cant socity take them seriosly to , why do they try to mock them?

Why do some men take the premission and other rights to literal and attempte to control and make it seem like woman have no say and try to keep them in drakness?

Check out the talbins using islam to hold woman back from studying and burning their face if they go to schools. Why do some muslim hate it when woman speak? Scared?


Some woman get treated like drity because of muslims that claim to be relgious.
Why do some relgious people opress people under the shirah law? Why do they just insult people that airnt on their level, why do they force people to do or wear something they dont want? Well the west arint the ones that make up oppresstion all the time , its the muslims themself . Open the tv ah look woman dont get to choose to wear hijab in iran. The talbins will kill you if you drop and show your skin accdintly. Yeh they have their own rules but they still use islam to justife what they did. Can we blame them for thinking where oppressed , no you cant because womans rights are overshadowed by certain men. Islam is not the oppresser but its muslims that give this image. Can you blame them for rejecting islam when they come to the west? Your meant to teach not just throu hadiths and force them and if they disagree with a powerful person they get death threats. Some Relgious figures try to cover certain rights.

We blame the west and culture for the problems we have but dont realise that we are the problem. We give them the oppertunity to speak. Their laughing at us because we condrated ourselfs. Islam comes in peace , some muslims come with aka 47.

Islam doesnt leave people that are being tutored but some muslims do.

Yes I am sympathtic with woman that take off their hijab because some have been forced by their parents and get beats , I have seen this happen to alot to pakistains, and I have seen the bruses with my own eyes. Nothing should be forced in the name of islam, it should be a free choose, but the ones that take it off and on for no reason what so ever then just dont wear it because some of us wear it out of free will and then we have to sit and explain to people that where not all oppressed and woman do have rights in islam. But some muslim men try to make it seem like we dont using all sorts of hadiths.

Woman can be in any field they wish, they have proven themselfs and can do anything. You name it, they have done it. Even men can do what woman can do lol were equal. They can be ayatollallahs but not sure if they be alive by the time they get to that level. theirs this saudi lady cant remmber her name but she always comes on arabic channles and you should see how the shiks talk to her and looked at her, like shes talking alot of bs when infact she has good points , when I remmber her name I post it.


This was such a great post. You hit the nail on most of the points I've been trying to make. If there was a woman's movement that set out to fix these problems - wouldn't that be a form of feminism? It could be under a different name; I've got a pretty dull imagination, so I came up with the word "Muslim womanism". You've clearly identified things that need to be fixed, and these things can't be fixed overnight, and certainly not until there are some hardcore institutional changes in Muslim countries. What I think we need is a discourse that expands on the things you've highlighted above. Women deserve equality, and I don't think any of the posts here disagree with me on that. We just don't want equality as it has been defined in the west, which is fine - but its still "feminist" no matter how "western" that word is associated with.
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#78 Çåá ÇáÈíÊ

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:40 PM

West , west ,west ,west and some more west

Why dont we learn something from the west? Fighting for humanity and justice for all? The west that you cant stand opened the doors for you when your own countries kicked you out, they teached and gave you rights to . Islam was the 1st relgion to give woman rights and the west have taken that idea from us.

Why do we just look at the negatives , why not adopted the postives?

When you start studying islam thats when you question, you dont just study you need to understand why that concpte is like that and you have to put it to practices. The problem isint the islamic law within it self but with the way muslims addresses certain conceptes. Yes the way a person teachs ir speaks about an issue determines whether a person will accepte or reject the concpte.

Socity is dominated by men. Imam Ali(As) said " One who comes into power often oppresses", very true in alot of causes.
Lets have look at how sone men use relgion and power. Woman get raped and some muslim make them look like crimanilies . The woman gets raped and imprisend under the act of "zina" and adultery, the woman gets the punishment and the men walks out like his the victim under islamic law apperently.

Why dont they take the womans word? Why does she need four witness, why do they look at her like shes the one breaking the laws. Why do they use islam to justife unjusticiful acts? If woman are seen equal in gods eyes then why cant socity take them seriosly to , why do they try to mock them?

Why do some men take the premission and other rights to literal and attempte to control and make it seem like woman have no say and try to keep them in drakness?

Check out the talbins using islam to hold woman back from studying and burning their face if they go to schools. Why do some muslim hate it when woman speak? Scared?


Some woman get treated like drity because of muslims that claim to be relgious.
Why do some relgious people opress people under the shirah law? Why do they just insult people that airnt on their level, why do they force people to do or wear something they dont want? Well the west arint the ones that make up oppresstion all the time , its the muslims themself . Open the tv ah look woman dont get to choose to wear hijab in iran. The talbins will kill you if you drop and show your skin accdintly. Yeh they have their own rules but they still use islam to justife what they did. Can we blame them for thinking where oppressed , no you cant because womans rights are overshadowed by certain men. Islam is not the oppresser but its muslims that give this image. Can you blame them for rejecting islam when they come to the west? Your meant to teach not just throu hadiths and force them and if they disagree with a powerful person they get death threats. Some Relgious figures try to cover certain rights.

We blame the west and culture for the problems we have but dont realise that we are the problem. We give them the oppertunity to speak. Their laughing at us because we condrated ourselfs. Islam comes in peace , some muslims come with aka 47.

Islam doesnt leave people that are being tutored but some muslims do.

Yes I am sympathtic with woman that take off their hijab because some have been forced by their parents and get beats , I have seen this happen to alot to pakistains, and I have seen the bruses with my own eyes. Nothing should be forced in the name of islam, it should be a free choose, but the ones that take it off and on for no reason what so ever then just dont wear it because some of us wear it out of free will and then we have to sit and explain to people that where not all oppressed and woman do have rights in islam. But some muslim men try to make it seem like we dont using all sorts of hadiths.

Woman can be in any field they wish, they have proven themselfs and can do anything. You name it, they have done it. Even men can do what woman can do lol were equal. They can be ayatollallahs but not sure if they be alive by the time they get to that level. theirs this saudi lady cant remmber her name but she always comes on arabic channles and you should see how the shiks talk to her and looked at her, like shes talking alot of bs when infact she has good points , when I remmber her name I post it.


For the first time you wrote something decent that actually makes sense. There is hope.

#79 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:49 PM

For the first time you wrote something decent that actually makes sense. There is hope.

So when can we expect you to start making sense?
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#80 Mehvish

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:48 AM

I have a few points to make, so that sisters (and brothers, for that matter) don't get confused by the word feminism; and unknowingly accept it, along with the package that comes with it.

We cannot reduce "feminism" to simply a call for increased rights for women. That would be akin to reducing Marxism to "social justice," or capitalism to "free markets," or fascism to "authoritarian government" (which so many people time and time again, make this mistake).

The whole point of ideology, is that you have an all-encompassing program, not just a two-word slogan.

So feminism is not simply, women's rights, but rather it has an all-encompassing program, with specific dictates on specific issues.


In your attempt to clarify 'for the sisters' what feminism is, you've defined it based on your stereotypes and hence, completely inaccurately.
It isn't an ideology at all, or at least in the same way Marxism or Liberalism are. By definition its a collection of movements which seek to establish gender equity. But what is gender equity? It can be defined and understood in so many different ways. Its wrong to completely homogenize feminist discourse. African American feminists have completely different concerns than white feminists in America. Same with Latin American feminists, African feminists, etc. Its not an all-encompassing program .
Women have completely different concerns everywhere. I don't agree with many North American feminists at all.

Now if you ask me the "nitty gritty" of feminist ideology, I won't have an answer for you. I have not read their literature, to be honest with you.


And there lies the core of your problem. You have no clue what feminism actually is, or who feminists are. If this arguement was about Ayatollah Khomeini and Wilayatul Faqih, and I simply said "I've no clue what Ayatullah Khomeini actually said, ive never read his literature, but I hate WF and Iran looks like a terrible place based on what I've observed on TV - what would you say? You're being quite the hypocrite in this respect.

But from observations and reflections on Western society and the position of women in Western society, a reasonable conclusion about the feminist program, can be reached. When I say Western society, I do not mean the Western society as propagated by the highly sexualized cultural apparatus, which reduces woman to a piece of meat. I mean the more sophisticated side of Western society: the educational appratus, the labor system, etc.


Feminism is not synonymous with being "western" and western society is not driven by feminists, it is in fact the complete opposite. I don't think there are any feminist writers, or at least any that I have personally come across that have actually said they agree with the status quo in the west. It is not that they are necessarily fighting to be able to do more things men do, or "take away their roles" as someone else, but to make public life more equal. Even first-world feminists have a lot of problems with what you consider "western" society. As I have mentioned in another post - there are even feminists who are looking to make tighter pornography laws, and some feminists who want pornography to be illegal all together!


I'm wondering if there is even any point in responding in any detail to some of the stuff on this thread. It really becomes clear after you have read enough of these posts and articles that people with a certain type of ideology have chosen a specific line of attack against Islamic laws, and they maintain that line of attack with complete disregard for what the sources actually say. Maybe the only person on here who has secularist tendencies, while also maintaining some kind of respect for the sources, is kadhim, and it's no surprise that he is the most conservative of the bunch. In fact, it's not even that clear to me if he can still be said to be part of that group.



I used to have sympathy for their cause.....then I came on shiachat - and that was the end of that

I am a Proud Shi'a Muslimah who tries her best to obey Allah and His Prophet! Feminist? No!



Nothing here is "against" Islam. And you don't have to be secular to be a feminist. Everyone who answered these questions have pointed out some social problems they have observed whether they are "conservative" or "liberal".
The point of this thread was to see if we could define a Muslim version of feminism that is simultaneously critical of first-world feminism and of the culture of the Muslim world. I've much more to say on this note, but I think i've made these points clear in my previous posts.
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#81 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:58 AM

Nothing here is "against" Islam. And you don't have to be secular to be a feminist. Everyone who answered these questions have pointed out some social problems they have observed whether they are "conservative" or "liberal".
The point of this thread was to see if we could define a Muslim version of feminism that is simultaneously critical of first-world feminism and of the culture of the Muslim world. I've much more to say on this note, but I think i've made these points clear in my previous posts.


I don't see how any other type of 'feminism' could be acceptable to a believing Muslim than simply one that tries to make an honest and unbiased attempt to understand what rights and responsibilites Islam gives women, and then to focus on getting those implemented in society. That is something I would completely support, since I don't believe women are always given those rights, by and large.

What I completely reject is this attempt to see how much of the Western rights given to women can be justified though a selective reading of Islamic source texts. That is completely the wrong way to go about things in my opinion, and is a completely illogical approach for a Muslim to take.

#82 Khadim uz Zahra

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 08:27 AM

Waalykumsalam wa RAHMTULLAHI WA BARAKATOH sister Naimah! :D

In The Name of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, The Most Beneficent, The Most Merciful.

The original feminists were the in the late 19th and early 20th century in America and Europe. They gained prominence because their message resonated in the society. In those days, women were considered the 'property' of their husbands, there was a debate as to whether women had souls or were just animals, they couldn't inherit, own property, hold most jobs, vote, etc. A man could beat his wife to death and the police would basically ignore it.

So they were addressing the injustices of the time and were a reaction to injustices in Western society. So, Islamically, they were correct in doing what they were doing and they succeeded in getting their rights. There is maybe one outstanding issue which is the descrepency in pay between women and men who do the same job but even that is disappearing. So now we have a situation where women in the West have gotten all those rights. In Islam, they already had those rights from the beginning so to say someone is a muslim 'feminist' kind of doesn't make any sense to me. Anyway, so what is modern feminism about ? I'm not quite sure ? It seems to me that it is a cover for some groups in society who want to confuse gender roles and make women the same as men. Men and women are equal in the eyes of Islam but not the same. There is a difference. They are equal in the value of their creation before Allah(s.w.a) but they have different roles to play in society. Both those roles are essential and without either one of them the society would fall apart. IMO, those women who say 'I think it's not fair because there is less women in leadership positions' means that they worship power and do not have a clear understanding of what leadership in Islam is. Imam Ali(a.s) said ' If it were not for the fact that I have an obligation to enjoin good and forbid evil and establish justice this Caliphate is worth less to me than a pair of old shoes'. So he wasn't seeking power in order to get power, he was given a duty by Allah(s.w.a) to establish justice and so he wanted to carry out that duty. Anyone who seeks power for the sake of seeking power is far astray from the authentic teaching of Our Prophet(p.b.u.h) and Ahl Al Bayt(a.s).


Firstly, I hope sister Mehvish will forgive me for again intruding. For the most part, I would agree to what you said - most of it was just a historic analysis of feminism as a movement and not any opinions so no question about agreeing or disagreeing - but as for the comment you made about those women who try to say that women should have more of a role in leadership positions, if we talk about those who are arguing for that on this forum, I don't think it applies to them.

You can see my previous posts on this post to see that I don't support women being followed as Marjas so I am not saying this to protect my own views because the group I am defending has, to a lesser or greater extent, views contrary to my own. I don't think the comment you made about them arguing in favour of this being due to their own love for power is correct - not for the ones on the forum anyway. This is because the reasons they are giving for women having more leadership positions is simply that men can't make decisions about women about certain issues because they don't experience the issues themselves (whether I agree with this arguement, in regards to Islamic laws, is a different matter altogether) which is not, really, related to personal power. In fact, the reasoning is quite similar to the one you quoted Imam Ali (as) giving: there is an injustice being done or the society is not functioning properly and, therefore, I will assume power so that I can correct this. This is exactly what these people are trying to say i.e. the issues of women are not being dealt with properly and, therefore, women need to step up and take power to correct this as they can deal with women's issues much better due to personal experience.

Let me say this again: I do not agree that their arguements are sound on this matter, atleast when it comes to Islamic Laws, and am not trying to defend their arguements but, rather, their intentions.

INSHALLAH, I have been helpful, clear and objective and have not hurt anyone and, once again, hope to be forgiven by Sister Mehvish for the intrusion.

May Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì bless us all, our families and loved ones, guide us all to The Straight Path with His Perfect Guidance and may He, The Forgiver of Sins and The Oft-Forgiving, forgive all our sins for, indeed, there is neither any refuge nor any respite for the sinners except in Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

#83 _jen_

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:45 PM

That's interesting. So you're saying that, in a way, the headscarf acts as a reminder that the hair is something sexual, which is the reason they're very sexualized? Whereas, on the contrary, a woman who dresses decently but doesn't cover her hair isn't sexualized because she doesn't emphasize on the fact that her hair has anything to do with anything sexual or erotic, am I right?


Exactly. Muslims seem to sexualise everything, and by doing so make muslim women some sort of sex toy. Not just with hijab, but with everything. For example, muslim women in the west who refuse to handshake with men - they are straight away defining themself as a sex object by doing this. Also, they way women pray behind men, the reasoning behind this again sexualises women. Its almost as though the muslim lifestyle revolves around sex. Muslim women seem to enjoy being this sex object though - they like to wear hijab and like to pray behind men - it seems as though they are satisfied with men thinking they are only good for sex.



Today, I listened to a new lecture by Sayed Ammar Nakshwani on the Hijab. He pointed out that those who say that it is only applicable to the former Arabian society and culture, should look at the daughter of Imam Ali عليه السلام, Sayeda Zainab Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã who wore the veil but didn't conform to Arabian culture because she is the walking Quran. I thought it was an interesting point to consider, but then again, she also wore the face veil and this has no basis in the Quran or Narratives, so why did she wear it? Either it was culture or this was just extra modesty. What do you think?


Im not sure what syed Ammar is saying here. Sayeda Zainab (as) dressed in a way which would mean men would not look at her indecently back then, in her society, in her culture. In her society this was by the veil. So she was conforming to her cultural standards of modesty.

lol this is actually very true. Muslim guys are brought up without interacting with opposite gender, but this automatically instils a preconception in their minds that women are a sexual object. It just does the opposite.


I dont know how the muslim community can progress with these continuing backwards ideas!

Who said Mut'ah is a joke? Who said it's not sacred. Its a marriage contract, but you just fixate a time. It's very practical to use, considering the fact that you can then decide whether you want to move on to the next level with your temporary partner, onto permanent marriage.

Also, there's no divorce in mut'ah.


Yes mutah does involve a contract and involves Allah. But lets be honest here - the reasons for why gf/bf relationships are bad for society are also applicable to mutah. ie. it devalues permanent marriage, chastity, and sex. I believe mutah should only be used nowadays when getting to know someone for marriage but then I still find the sex before the permanent marriage a problem.

Edited by _jen_, 14 January 2012 - 02:46 PM.


#84 _jen_

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:00 PM

But you don't think that men abuse their own privileges? I really disagree with you here. Male politicians play with women's issues all the time to gain popularity. In the US, for example, Obama recently signed a bill to reduce access to Plan B, which is a contraceptive pill also known as the "morning after" pill. It prevents women from getting pregnant should they have been raped, or if their condom broke, etc (but its not an abortion pill - it simply makes it impossible for a baby to be conceived). It was a clear publicity stunt from the perspective of American politics, because it was a move that neutralized the Republicans who weren't cooperating with him. But from a woman's perspective this is horrible; there are so many women who get raped everyday and rely on the pill to make sure they aren't impregnated.

In other respects too we see women's rights being abused: pornography laws, sex abuse cases (both in the West and in Muslim countries), inheritance rights (especially in the subcontinent).

I don't think men have done a great job at handling women's issues at all. Nothing can change, in my opinion, unless women actually get involved in the field.
No one is objective - and its not like men would never implicitly be involved in the law making process even if more women were involved in politics.


If men handled the laws affecting women from Day 1 until now - rape, abuse, abortion etc would not be such a wide spread issue. The only reason these things affect so many women now is due to women recently being involved in law, so we are more aware of these issues, and men are aware of them and therefore get ideas, and subsequently act on them. I really believe awareness on sensitive female issues only spreads whatever the problem may be, further. I disagree with you that no-one is objective, i think men are the most objective people we are going to get when it comes to womens issues. However, I do undertand what your saying, I used to be of the same opinion.

#85 Naimah*

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 04:33 PM

"Why would you say that? This is a highly misinformed definition. All feminists simply demand some form of gender equity. Not all feminists are the same, and it would be wrong to categorize feminism under one general idea.
In your opinion, are women's rights in the Muslim world "perfect"? Do you think they are, generally, treated as they should be?"

"So you blame women's behavior for men not being able to behave themselves? What do you think women should do to change themselves?
If you are talking about modesty - even women who wear hijab and dress Islamically appropriate are still subject to all the problems "western" women are."

Salam
I'm sorry, I will not argue my perspective especially knowing our views will not be modified by this effort. I was mistakenly under the impression you wanted opinions and this was not a debate.
I sincerely hope you are able to find the answers to what you are looking for. :)

#86 Inception

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:38 PM

I would appreciate your answers to the following questions. You do not have to answer all of the questions if you do not want to or do not feel comfortable doing so. I also apologize in advance if my biases bleed into my questions. My intention is not to impose myself or sound ignorant. There are certain values I believe in very strongly, and its pretty hard to hide my biases.


Salaam aleykom

to be honest, I was a hard core feminist, now when I asked and read and learned, I have no problem with islam itself, because I found out that alot of injustise come come from culture not islam itself..you don't realise what a relief that is to me..now I'm so convinced about every singe rule in islam, doesnt mean Im super muslim but I dont argue like before, and dont get easily nervous about these things anymore alhamdulillah

so your questions..
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#87 Inception

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 12:27 AM

1. No, I see now the burden men have, and understand that women wouldn't handle all burden/responsiblities in the same way..

2. already answered that, define it as striving to have equal statues between gender with women in a "weaker" position to start with..

3. Not sure I understand the question?? that muslim womanism would mean that we are striving to have better conditions for a muslim woman??


4. yes, me and my sis wore hijab because we wanted to alhamdulillah, the men in our family were pushing, but we did it at the time we were ready for it, and we were not afraid of them..they are not forcing us in that meaning..alhamdulillah..

5. I thaught women were already involved in politics?? why would you say that? is it a specific country you are thinking about? the males would NOT fight for our rights as females would do, so no, I wouldn't like to just chill when men are deciding things for us as a group...so the woman is a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, a taxi driver, university professor...but dumb when it comes to politics??? (that awakened my feminism heheh)

6. I never understood the rules of menstruation, so I just kept doing what I learned from mom, so yes that would make a huge difference..I don't think translating Quran should be gender biased, it sounds like most if not all translators will change the meaning of ayah because he didn't like giving woman thier rights or something??? I don't our olama'a (the greatest ones like Sistani :) ) have this mentality, I think it's more the local scholars that twist things according to thier local culture and society...I have faith in the brightest names we have.. alhamdulillah..

7. in my family, I wasn't treated unfairly in a direct way, culture is there in the family..soooo...ok, yes, I think we can call it unfair afterall..about men in the community, we have faced alot of them..about a scholar lecturing women for anything...the scholar's job is to lecture all of us, not only women..about everything..women holding lectures and so should definitely be engaged, I mean women around here are engaged alhamdulillah..but the scholar/lecturer should point out all flaws/mistakes/disrespect we do in our lives..

8. that doesnt happen in all muslim cultures, so its a weird question for me, has to do more with culture not islam..but definitely the most idiotic thing human can do..I mean we prove over and over again that we are just a punch of opressors and abusers waiting for our chance to break Geneiss records in inhumanity..

9. It's a solution for many problems, if there is no problem, why you go for it??? you have no reason for it, there is no war and alot of widoes in your society, you are not travelling far way from your wife, u have a good wife and children...so why?? becuase you desire some variation in your life??? so, can your wife desire variation in her life too?? she is a human being, the science has claimed...my feminism again

10. I thought mutah is not about virginity to start with?? well, if you are a virgin, then you have to ask permission from your father, then it will feel like a regular marraige..if not virgin, then you have your reasons to do it..
if its about the man..so if he did marry mutah for good reasons (by the way, he doesnt need to tell you) I dont mind, but if he does it to have many "halal" girl friends, then no...this is a part of jihad, and if u can not do jihad in this thing you will not do jihad in other contexts..so it depends, otherwise, mutah, in its real meaning where both males and females are taking into consideration, yes no problem at all..but then comes the culture hehehe, and in culture, girls dont do mutah..so if we want to blame for unfair rules, its the culture, not islam..

11. It depends, there are career oriented girls like me, and there are family oriented girls..so for me, it was natural to pursue my degree first, then I didnt feel the rush to marry soon after graduation...honestly, now I'm paniking, Im 31..so its time, honestly, I shouldn't have waited so long, but first I was drifted away with my career and then elhamdulillah alhamdulillah, I helped my family alot the past years, so sometimes I feel it was a blessing that I wasn't married in those difficult times, because I wouldn't be able to help them as much as I did (or handle the situation in a good way myself)..but ofcaurse sometimes or alot of times I wish I was married earlier, but not so much earlier..
But only Allah knows what is best, so I try not to set a limit for marriage age or so..
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#88 AlphaMale_ASAD

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 12:04 PM

Feminism is stupid. Dum, illogical, sexist, backwards, against natural human mating, stupid stupid stupid. Name one Islamic figure who felt a need for all this? All of them loved Islam. Loved there veil. And don't anyone say there wasn't a veil before nabi Muhammad saws kus Thats a lie. I've seen christian and Jewish women with a veil on. No hair showing. So this has been ordained since the beginning. Feminism is anti Islam. The women in Islam didn't fight in the name of feminism and they fought In the name of Allah swt for Islam. If the BEST WOMEN EVER CREATED felt it was equality. Then any other say would mean u know better than them. Modesty is only hijab. Which includes head covering, loose clothing, covered up from wrist to ankles. This is modesty, forget other things around you, forget society YOU DO IT BECAUSE Allah COMMANDED YOU. if you feel that men or whatever impact ur decision to wear hijab or not then you just gave men power over ur decisions to get to heaven. Feminism is anti woman. Don't be a feminist. Be a Muslim woman.

#89 kim.tinkerbell

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:03 PM

" Feminism is anti woman."

"A wise man first thinks and then speak and a FOOL speaks first and then thinks." imam ali (as)

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#90 Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:38 PM

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Why are feminists so... unfeminine looking?

#91 Inception

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:58 PM

Feminism is stupid. Dum, illogical, sexist, backwards, against natural human mating, stupid stupid stupid. Name one Islamic figure who felt a need for all this? All of them loved Islam. Loved there veil. And don't anyone say there wasn't a veil before nabi Muhammad saws kus Thats a lie. I've seen christian and Jewish women with a veil on. No hair showing. So this has been ordained since the beginning. Feminism is anti Islam. The women in Islam didn't fight in the name of feminism and they fought In the name of Allah swt for Islam. If the BEST WOMEN EVER CREATED felt it was equality. Then any other say would mean u know better than them. Modesty is only hijab. Which includes head covering, loose clothing, covered up from wrist to ankles. This is modesty, forget other things around you, forget society YOU DO IT BECAUSE Allah COMMANDED YOU. if you feel that men or whatever impact ur decision to wear hijab or not then you just gave men power over ur decisions to get to heaven. Feminism is anti woman. Don't be a feminist. Be a Muslim woman.


Salaam aleykom

yes, true brother..I agree with most of what you said...the problem with most of arab men (and I talk about arabs because this is my experience, I dont dare to talk about others)..most arab men, as soon as you start talking about womens' rights, they start accusing you to be feminist.

honestly, I still don't know the correct and exact definition of feminism..but why get upset that I'm trying to talk about serious problems?? why don't you like my ideas about more freedom for women, which is actually what Allah granted us and islam is teaching us??

and I'm talking about my own experience and also my few friends that I trust they fight for womens' islamic rights..they are still called femeisnt, or accused to be taking thier ideas and believes from the west???

freedom and equal respect shouldn't be a "western" right..it's for all of us..but, really, specially the GUYS, they don't know what we go through and how we feel, and they "haven't" initiated solutions for our problems and want us to stay quite!!!

I mean it's beautiful to hear what our prophet and imams (as) said..
it's beautiful to hear olama' and shiekhs in majalis and islamic lectures talk about the issue..
but we are still not practising it..and its everyone's duty not only this person or that

Alahmdlillah, its started to change, and people are more aware islamically
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#92 786khayr

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:06 PM

Salaam sis... too many questions.. but just wanted to give u my view..alahmdolillah have the lived in the East and the West... God has given me the awareness of understanding both cultures and then have a basic understanding of Islam.. alhamdolillah... as far as culture goes, no matter what the culture is women are viewed and treated unfairly culture wise may it be eastern or western...

we should understand what islam did for women.. during the time when girls were shunned buried alive, viewed as sex slaves, IslAm gave women their rights (equal oppurtunity to study, have the right on their wealth etc)...Islam is a divine and great religion, Islam tells womEn to do Hijab... and yes alhamdolillah I do hijab.. I at no stage feel oppressed but protected, I alhamdolillah work full time with hijab..

In Islam men and have equality they have different obligations, because naturally God has created both beings physically emotionally different.. there is no point in forcing women into men's obligations or men's roles.. if we have not been created to carry them out... "why be a thing your not"

the thing that gets me angry is when lack of education comes in and illterate people start saying Islam promotes oppression on women...that is when their personal motives and culture comes in...God is extremely just and anything that goes against God's Justice is not part of Islam.. we are very very lucky to be followers of this great religion, which saved women's rights when they were literally being buried in the sands of Arabia.. Allah thank You for being so Merciful to womankind... ALLAHUAKBAR!
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