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Explaining The Bible, By A Christian Lady

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Hello,

If God wills, I would like to address points from the "Errors in the Bible" thread little by little, if I may.

The Earth is a flat disk in shape, like a dinner plate, and rests upon mountain pillars.

First, it is important to note that the Bible is not a science textbook. The Bible is a group of manuscripts that span the centuries that contain the commands God gave to the Israelites through the prophet Moses. Before anything was written, the history of the past was memorized and accounted verbally, passed on from generation to generation since the time of Adam. The Jewish people, ancestors of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel), made it a point to keep the historic accounts in tact. Moses, the man God chose to lead the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, out of Egypt, wrote down the accounts, and after him, Joshua, his successor, wrote down what happened. So, it is important to note that the Bible is not a scientific textbook, but rather accounts written by people who were not scientists, but were followers of the One and Only God.

Secondly, it is important to note that authors of the Bible used different linguistic forms to express the grandeur of God and the amazing work of His Creation. Figurative language is a way to express but is not to be taken literally

“It is [God] who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in.” — Isa. 40:22

Isaiah 40:22 is a wonderful example of the beauty of figurative language. Here, Isaiah, a prophet God sent to the Israelites, is using figurative language, Although the earth is indeed circular in shape, God is not sitting above the earth and made curtains out of the heavens and spread them like a tent. However, this figurative language shows that God is the Judge over the earth, as well as the Creator of the Heavens and the earth. In the similies, people are not grasshoppers, but we are like grasshoppers when compared to the majesty and greatness of our Creator. So, we see in Isaiah and in many passages of the Bible, figurative language. Again, figurative language is not to be taken literally, but does express the truth of the greatness and grandeur of our Creator!

“God has [created the Earth as] a circle on the face of the [chaos] waters [between the Earth and outer space], at the boundary between light and darkness.” — Job 26:10

The Creation is an awesome and amazing event that Job and his friends, who lived a long time ago, talked about in terms they could understand. Needless to say, Job and his friends did not talk English. Also, as far as we know, they were not scientists. However, they were people who knew God existed and talked about Him, and Job was a man who was considered blameless before God.

“I [Lady Wisdom] was brought forth when [God] had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. When [God] established the heavens, I was there, when [God] drew a circle on the face of the deep.” — Prov. 8:26-27

Here, the figurative language form of personification is used. This is another beautiful example of figurative language, which is an artistic and intelligent form of linguistic expression.

“The devil took [Jesus] to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor” [Matthew 4:8]. (Even from the top of Mt. Everest, it is impossible to see the “kingdom” of Greenland, to cite just one example.)

Both angels and demons/the devil/satan are not humans. They are not mere mortals that are limited and restricted like humans are. Although humans don't know all the capabilities angels and demons have, it is obvious through Scripture that they can do things people can't, like fly, and in this case, satan (the devil) can show Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. Nowadays, people can do things through technology that long time ago were impossible, like flying in a plane, talking on a cell, interacting on the internet, watching tv, and so on. Although I doubt angels and demons use technology, I do think they can naturally do things (like fly or appear suddenly) that people can't do.

“God shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble.” — Job 9:6

“The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astounded at [God's] rebuke.” — Job 26:11

“When the earth totters, with all its inhabitants, it is I [God] who keep its pillars steady.” — Psalm 75:3

The above verses are also beautiful examples of figurate language, which is a form of expression that both people of that time and people of today, use.

The sun revolves around the flat Earth.

Again, the Bible is not a science textbook. Also, the account below is a unique event that is a miracle, that God did for the people of Israel!

“On the day when YHWH gave the Amorites over to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to YHWH; and he [unspecified whether Joshua or God] said in the sight of Israel, ‘Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.’ And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in midheaven, and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.” — Joshua 10:12-13

It is awesome to read in context! I hope anyone quoting from the Bible, whether to accuse it or to study it, reads the whole context to see what happened. Here, God helps the Israelites by making a miracle take place. Again, it is important to understand that the people were not scientists. They were people who believed in God and who accounted what happened according to their language, their culture, and their artistic forms of expression, giving glory to God, who does awesome and amazing things!!!

Peace and God bless you

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Hi CL. Can you explain John when he says In the beginning was the word, the word was with god and the word was god.

First define what is this word John talks about. Is it god's word? or all of OT god's words?? If this is about god's word, when is the earliest OT god started talking in Bible??

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Hi CL.

Hello Ibrahim Rasheed,

Can you explain John when he says In the beginning was the word, the word was with god and the word was god.

First define what is this word John talks about. Is it god's word? or all of OT god's words?? If this is about god's word, when is the earliest OT god started talking in Bible??

When God created life on earth, He used words to do so. The term "Word of God" basically means what God says, and can be a general term for all that God says (which includes but is not limited to all God says accounted in the OT) or can be words that God spoke for a particular event. In the instance of John, the Word of God in the beginning is God's Word while creating life on earth.

Genesis 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse[a] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made[b] the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven.[c] And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,[d] and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,[f] and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

20And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds[g] fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” 21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.

24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26Then God said, “Let us make man[Or fashioned; also verse 16] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27 So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.

28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."

During the Creation is the first time God is accounted in the Bible, both in the Tanakh and in the Christian Bible. This is located in Genesis 1.

Peace and God bless you

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Hello Ibrahim Rasheed,

When God created life on earth, He used words to do so. The term "Word of God" basically means what God says, and can be a general term for all that God says (which includes but is not limited to all God says accounted in the OT) or can be words that God spoke for a particular event. In the instance of John, the Word of God in the beginning is God's Word while creating life on earth.

Genesis 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse[a] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made[b] the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven.[c] And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,[d] and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,[f] and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

20And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds[g] fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” 21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.

24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26Then God said, “Let us make man[Or fashioned; also verse 16] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27 So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.

28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."

During the Creation is the first time God is accounted in the Bible, both in the Tanakh and in the Christian Bible. This is located in Genesis 1.

Peace and God bless you

HI. CL. Thanks for the quotes from Genesis. Genesis differentiated what it's god created with hands and words. Some, OT god created using his hands, Others, he created by his commands / words / according to Christians by NT. jesus.

Please note. John's formula Word or all words of God = his Jesus, means that NT. Jesus will not be in circulation in any form or matter unless it (word) came into being. (The beginning of where OT god started talking).

John says In the beginning was word. And John claims in NT that it was this word/jesus that made up the creation. On the contrary Genesis states otherwise. Let us see what the two beginnings looks when compared.

YOUR QUOTE: Genesis 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. UNQUOTE.

We see even in your highlighted verses. you could only high light from Verse 3 on wards. NOT BEFORE. But do you see that before OT god started any sort of (talking/expression/word/ word=jesus), the OT god already made Heavens and Earth. We also see that Spirit of God was hovering over the face of waters but NO NT. JESUS OR ANY WORD OF GOD USED UP TO THIS POINT OF CREATION.

Let's see what OT says who created Heavens and earth. NT. Jesus or OT. God. Making John's claim of jesus making up all creation with reasoning out that word of god =NT. jesus so anything god made by talking = NT.jesus doing the job. ISAIAH SAYS NO.

Isaiah 48:13

"Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heaven:

(HERE IS WHEN OT. GOD SPOKE) when I call unto them, they stand up together."

We see that both in Genesis 1: 1&2 and Isaiah 48:13, God of OT never spoke a word and used OT god's hands to make the Heavens and Earth. Only when OT God needed some lights he started with your boldened verse 3 of Genesis 1. (Started talking or using NT. Jesus).

By that time we have the following already created by OT god and reconfirmed by Isaiah that OT god used his hands NOT WORDS to create. 1. Heavens, 2. Earth, 3. Water. 4. (though not created) Spirit of God was there hovering over waters that had already been created.

Tell me how in any sense or under any doctrine, even if you apply the formula that all words of god =NT. jesus so NT. jesus created the heavens and earth and all things there in.

Shall we look at John's claim?

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

(According to Genesis which you posted, only Holy Spirit was there with god and ofcourse the heavens and earth THERE WAS NO WORD OF GOD BEFORE HEAVENS AND EARTH WERE CREATED).

3 All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1

John claims that in the beginning it was the word. But genesis says NO. We see Holy Spirit and Heavens and Earth in the beginning. Both Genesis and John are talking about the same creation though in different words.

For argument sake we can say OK let John be. But how can John claim the entire creation for NT. Jesus and claim NT. Jesus created everything??3 All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.?????

CL TELL ME HOW TRUE IS THIS STATEMENT FROM JOHN. In verse 2 John made this Word a He and in verse 14, John applied flesh on the word to make the word his NT. jesus. So clearly John was talking about his Jesus or word of god making up all the creation.

Point here is who created Heavens, Earth, Water. Did OT god talk (like John says) to create this or he created by using his hands like Isaiah says??

Edited by Ibrahim Rasheed

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if you look at Isaiah 48: verses 2-3 not only does God say "went forth out of my mouth" but also calls the God of Isreal The "LORD of hosts". In verse 13 Isaiah says hands. I believe that the authors of the OT used terms that were more understandable to the people of the times. Not every time that "God" is mentioned is it actually God Almighty. If you go to a site like Biblegateway and search "the Word" you will find it often in the OT and more involved than written or verbal words could ever be.

Many verses OT and NT seem to draw attention to the Word as the first creation, and/or the means of creation. I won't pretend to understand it all as my study is still ongoing but at no time do I see the NT Jesus ever being God, The Word was not God, Jesus only lived a few short years but was indwelled by the Word. That is the only way to explain some of the strange things Jesus was able to say.

This is not to say there is more than one God either. One God rules from Heaven, His creations do the work, mortals called them all gods not knowing. Translators, (from a language without punctuation), did their best and may have missed but the truth is still there. In the same sense a corrupted NT would have Jesus saying he was God.

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if you look at Isaiah 48: verses 2-3 not only does God say "went forth out of my mouth" but also calls the God of Isreal The "LORD of hosts". In verse 13 Isaiah says hands. I believe that the authors of the OT used terms that were more understandable to the people of the times. Not every time that "God" is mentioned is it actually God Almighty. If you go to a site like Biblegateway and search "the Word" you will find it often in the OT and more involved than written or verbal words could ever be.

Many verses OT and NT seem to draw attention to the Word as the first creation, and/or the means of creation. I won't pretend to understand it all as my study is still ongoing but at no time do I see the NT Jesus ever being God, The Word was not God, Jesus only lived a few short years but was indwelled by the Word. That is the only way to explain some of the strange things Jesus was able to say.

This is not to say there is more than one God either. One God rules from Heaven, His creations do the work, mortals called them all gods not knowing. Translators, (from a language without punctuation), did their best and may have missed but the truth is still there. In the same sense a corrupted NT would have Jesus saying he was God.

Isaiah 48:2-3

English Standard Version (ESV)

2 For they call themselves after the holy city,

and stay themselves on the God of Israel;

the LORD of hosts is his name.

3 “The former things I declared of old;

they went out from my mouth, and I announced them;

then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.

I suppose you know what we are talking about. It is John's declaration that NT. Jesus made all creation. His logic was that NT. Jesus is every single word of God and this so called word = NT. Jesus was god.

Having said that, I asked the Christians, when did God of OT started talking. Without talking no word so unless a word comes out of god's mouth there is no NT. jesus. John says his declared gospel word was the beginning. OT cries out NO. Genesis 1: 1-2 says, "In the beginning god created heavens and earth. The holy spirit was hovering over waters. So we know the following facts:

1. Earth was created by god without talking.

2. Heavens were created without talking.

3. Water was created without talking.

4. The only "creature" or entity was holy spirit and god both at.

The above was reconfirmed by OT Isaiah claiming his God used hands to make 1,2,3 mentioned above.

Now we have to see when OT god started talking to put NT. jesus into circulation.

Genesis 3 confirms without doubt when OT god started talking. Let us have a look.

Genesis 3 states God said, "let there be light" and so it went and OT god could not stop talking. This is where NT. jesus could have taken over in any form or sense.

Isaiah 48:13

"Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heaven:

(HERE IS WHEN OT. GOD SPOKE) when I call unto them, they stand up together."

To hold OT god's created heavens and earth, OT god called or commanded them to stand together. So it is after OT god created that he commanded or talked or jesussed.

One sad fact is that this holy spirit did not had any glory that could light the darkness so OT god had to order some lights which he assigned to make day and night for this planet earth. OT god even called this Day. Unfortunately, OT god postponed creating the sun to give light to make day for Planet earth. These are written facts.

Also we see that it was on Verse 3 of Genesis that OT god started talking or jesussing. There is no way with any sort of interpretation or logic, the NT. John can deprive OT god of the creation rights of Heavens, earth and water. Yet, shamelessly John did correct?? And that is what Christians have been preaching in the Bible. The Word was god and this word became flesh and dwelled on this earth. The fully god and fully man called NT. jesus.

CL declares that NT. jesus is the word of God or god's spokesman and it was this NT. jesus that made up the entire creation. I asked her that if OT god does not talk, how can there be his word. No talk no word.

Facts from Bible is that NT. jesus was born of holy spirit who had earlier "overshadowed" NT. mary to conceive the baby NT. jesus. According to Bible, god's words were not enough to make or conceive NT. jesus in NT. mary. We know holy spirit fathered NT. jesus by "overshadowing". Probably that is how spiritual beings have that thing with human women to conceive human and divine babies. (I hope you understand how illogical and absurd it sounds). Unfortunately that is exactly what Bible declares.

**Please note that what Muslim believe is totally different from what bible declare. For Bible, NT. jesus is every word god spoke. For Muslims, Jesus Christ (pbuh) was the miracle of a command of Allah SWT.

THIS IS NOT THE SAME THING.

If this word is a separate entity like the water hovering holy spirit, then that too will be mentioned in OT as you and I know that Genesis being the 1st OT God's breathed words or according to John, jesuses, NO SUCH THING IS MENTIONED BEFORE CREATOIN OF EARTH, HEAVENS AND WATER IN OT.

The holy spirit would have been hyper active in that person and the person who wrote could not have made one single mistake. You and I know that all Christian writings were put on paper by holy spirit ON TOP OF THAT GOD ALWAYS BREATH ON THAT.

In the gospel of John, the holy spirit who was in John knew what this holy spirit made John write. Same way the holy spirit who was in the guy who wrote genesis knew what he wrote. After everything was written, the NT god always breathed on the writings for the Church's benefit making sure that there is no mistake.

Such being the case, how can any lie or contradiction be there when the god we are talking here is the Master miracle maker.

The only possible or logical explanation is that John tried to put a fast one on every one and the church wrote tons of doctrines to cover the fact. Unfortunately they could not. Neither could they deprive OT god of his creation and steals it for John's NT. jesus. We cannot claim these bible claims are corrupted. If so the holy spirit in them were corrupted too to make them write such nonsense.

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I know there are differences between Muslim and Christian beliefs. I can't "tell" you what happened, I can only give you my version as I see it.

My interest is in bringing the scriptures together, not in separating them so I might not be supporting your cause.

How could it be in John's best interest to start a gospel with an out n out lie? John above all believed that Jesus had more going on than any other man. He knew Jesus had knowledge beyond His time.

Actually very few believe John himself wrote the Gospel of John as it's been traced back to 85 - 90 AD. That would make John 100+ yrs old.

In my studies I don't believe that "The Spirit of the Lord" was the Holy Spirit if that means anything.

The Gospel of John certainly was focussed on Jesus but still hasn't convinced me that Jesus was in fact God. There certainly are tons of doctrines.

I guess if you really want to get down to it, God is without beginning so therefore the phrase "in the beginning" is in itself rhetorical, so at which time during the "beginning" did each author write about?

Going back to Gen 1:1, we can't really say God created without talking because we don't really know. Did God spend a kizbillion + years just thinking to himself before He came up with the idea of creation? I know, it's a ludicris thought yet that's what "not talking" implies. If we could peg "the beginning" back to an exact moment then we could say how far off each author was in their writings, but we really can't. What we can see in the "beginning" is the beginning of ourselves.

The first mention of God saying anything was "Let there be light" This was before the creation of the sun. Jesus said a few times He was the light of the world. Light on earth was the beginning of life. This is probably the begining John was referring to rather than the original creation.

I'm not well versed in the Quran either but I seem to remember God talked to the elements. God said Come together, make an earth, like it or not. The elements replied we will obey. That would have been before light, God talked and so did the elements. That doesn't really help anyones argument at this point does it.

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I know there are differences between Muslim and Christian beliefs. I can't "tell" you what happened, I can only give you my version as I see it.

My interest is in bringing the scriptures together, not in separating them so I might not be supporting your cause.

How could it be in John's best interest to start a gospel with an out n out lie? John above all believed that Jesus had more going on than any other man. He knew Jesus had knowledge beyond His time.

Actually very few believe John himself wrote the Gospel of John as it's been traced back to 85 - 90 AD. That would make John 100+ yrs old.

In my studies I don't believe that "The Spirit of the Lord" was the Holy Spirit if that means anything.

The Gospel of John certainly was focussed on Jesus but still hasn't convinced me that Jesus was in fact God. There certainly are tons of doctrines.

I guess if you really want to get down to it, God is without beginning so therefore the phrase "in the beginning" is in itself rhetorical, so at which time during the "beginning" did each author write about?

Going back to Gen 1:1, we can't really say God created without talking because we don't really know. Did God spend a kizbillion + years just thinking to himself before He came up with the idea of creation? I know, it's a ludicris thought yet that's what "not talking" implies. If we could peg "the beginning" back to an exact moment then we could say how far off each author was in their writings, but we really can't. What we can see in the "beginning" is the beginning of ourselves.

The first mention of God saying anything was "Let there be light" This was before the creation of the sun. Jesus said a few times He was the light of the world. Light on earth was the beginning of life. This is probably the begining John was referring to rather than the original creation.

I'm not well versed in the Quran either but I seem to remember God talked to the elements. God said Come together, make an earth, like it or not. The elements replied we will obey. That would have been before light, God talked and so did the elements. That doesn't really help anyones argument at this point does it.

Thanks for the explanation. Yes it does not help the argument where God has to talk to have one single word out of his mouth. If he does without talking, then there is no word = jesus to even relate such a ridiculous idea that a physical human being can be the word of god. Without this word of god the OT god become dumb.

Though we do not know where or when the beginning was, we know what god started talking. It is clearly mentioned in the scripture.

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. (CAN ANYONE SEE IT SAY GOD SAID THIS OR THAT HERE? IT IS A 100% NO.)

MY ARGUMENT WAS CAN ANYONE SEE IT SAY GOD SAID ??? OR TALKED?? HOW CAN OT GOD CREATE HEAVENS AND EARTH USING HIS WORD=JESUS WHEN HE CLEARLY DECLARE HE USED HIS ARMS??? OT Isaiah is a Liar when Isaiah reconfirms Genesis 1: 1-2 saying . Isa 48:13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens...??? IN CASE NT. JOHN WAS RIGHT.

OT GOD IN THE BIBLE STARTED TALKING WHEN HE WANTED TO DECORATE THE EARTH AND HEAVENS WITH WHAT EVER NECESSITIES LIKE WHAT IS MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY IN THOSE VERSES

THESE ARE WHAT HE (OT GOD) CREATED BY TALKING OR USING WORD.

GE 1:3 And God said, Let there be light

GE 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament

GE 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together…

GE 1:12 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass

GE 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament…

GE 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature

GE 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature

GE 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image…

BY THIS TIME, SADLY FOR NT. JESUS, AND CHRISTIANITY IT WAS BEYOND HIM/THEM, UNDER ANY RATIONAL THINKING, TO FORFEIT THE CREATION OF EARTH AND HEAVENS FROM OT GOD AS OT GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS, EARTH AND WATER BY KEEPING HIS MOUTH SHUT.

IN GENESIS Verse 3 god wanted to make day and night without the Sun and he talked and made a light to give day and night to this planet earth. OT god also confirmed that this light he created makes the Day and Night = Day as we term for a full rotation of earth. This itself is a fallacy and folk tale in the Bible. Reason is that OT God never withdrew this light in anywhere in the scripture and made 4th day sun later to govern this light. Yet we do not see two lights making up the day on this planet earth. OT clearly claims that this first light makes day and night for the earth and not the sun. NT. Believers associates this physical light that makes day and night = Day for this earth to NT. jesus and say jesus is the light. The Aramaic sentence was used in a metaphorical sense yet shamelessly Christians refer to this genesis light as jesus. Thought this light was created by OT god talking, it can only be one thing. If word = NT. jesus then NT. jesus made up this light but he himself is not the light that makes day and night for this earth. All this shows the fictitious character who declared himself god and removed OT god from Heavenly throne in the Blasphemous writings of NT gospels.

In case of John and his writings, it does not make any difference whether who wrote it as long as Christians market it under John's name. We are talking about written John's gospel which today's Christians say it is god's word and John wrote it. So let us play along with the lie (according to you as John would have died by the time this was written or he would have been 100 plus years) and concentrate on gospel of John. The masterpiece of Christian god NT. Jesus which this NT. Jesus made the supposed John write those things. I wonder where the holy spirit was at that time. Normally it is this holy spirit that overshadow man to make him spew out the NT scriptures.

Edited by Ibrahim Rasheed

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How did God create the heavens and the earth?

We don't know, He never talked about it.

Does that mean God's first words were "Let there be light"?

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I understand you are saying the first light didn't exist because the Bible doesn't mention when it went away, or because we don't have two suns?

You will have to direct me to the blasphemy you are talking about. As I mentioned, I have read the NT many times and still don't see anything NT Jesus = God.

NT Jesus was born of Mary, lived, died. Before the emaculate conception Jesus did not exist. The Word did. The OT mentions The Word often but not Jesus.

I'm not a trinitarian so it's hard to convince me Jesus = God in any way.

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How did God create the heavens and the earth?

We don't know, He never talked about it.

Does that mean God's first words were "Let there be light"?

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I understand you are saying the first light didn't exist because the Bible doesn't mention when it went away, or because we don't have two suns?

You will have to direct me to the blasphemy you are talking about. As I mentioned, I have read the NT many times and still don't see anything NT Jesus = God.

NT Jesus was born of Mary, lived, died. Before the emaculate conception Jesus did not exist. The Word did. The OT mentions The Word often but not Jesus.

I'm not a trinitarian so it's hard to convince me Jesus = God in any way.

Thanks Son of Placid.

So discussing with you, I assume that we both agree to the following.

1. NT. Jesus is not god.

2. The Word mentioned in John 1 is not NT. jesus but god's word.??

Starting from here, you say

NT Jesus was born of Mary, lived, died. Before the immaculate conception Jesus did not exist. The Word did. The OT mentions The Word often but not Jesus.

You say the following regarding the creation: "How did God create the heavens and the earth?

We don't know, He never talked about it."

Bible is very specific on what god said and did. YOU ARE WRONG WHEN YOU SAY BIBLE IS NOT SPECIFIC ABOUT WHEN GOD TALKED OR NOT. As such, bible made the following distinction when genesis was written.

Genesis 1: 1&2 god did not talk when he created Heavens and earth and Isaiah in Isaiah 48:13 Confirms OT god's claim that he did not talk by declaring:-

"Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heaven: when I call unto them, they stand up together."

Son of Placid. How much clearer can the genesis and Isaiah be to answer your question and confirm that OT god did not talk but used his hands. Isaiah even mentioned that god's "right hand" spanned the heavens. This was preached 2500 years ago for people to understand how god created.

Don't you think it is ironic that this is mentioned in such a way that no one can later of steal the CREATION show from OT god???

*****What relationship is there between a god's words and NT. jesus?? Let us explore.*******

John declare that it was this word, a separate being like the holy spirit which was with god which got formed into a bag of bones, flesh and skin called NT. jesus that came to earth fully god and fully human.

Can you show me from Bible where the god's command or word itself was sufficient to create NT. jesus in NT. Mary's womb. Let us say in your own terms and definition " the immaculate conception"????

ON the contrary the bible states:-

Matthew 1:18

English Standard Version (ESV)

The Birth of Jesus Christ

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ[a] took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed[b] to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

SHALL WE FIND OUT HOW MARY GOT THIS CHILD FROM HOLY SPIRIT??

19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. 20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,

and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

POINTS CONFIRMED BY MATTHEW.

1. Joseph found out Mary was pregnant and considered divorce.

2. Joseph saw a dream where an Angel told him that the child was fathered (in human terms and expression) by Holy Spirit.

3. The child will be a boy and Joseph must call him jesus.

4. The child will save his people from sin. (a very good news)

5. Matthew who wrote this put his own input by stating this happened to fulfill prophecy... Immanuel.

** We have to note that none of the message from god was enough to conceive Mary. The Holy Spirit who was hovering over the waters at the time of Genesis 1: 1&2 has to come down and do his part by overshadowing Mary to conceive the child NT. Jesus. Please note that overshadowing is a physical act. It is not a word from anyone's mouth. God or whatever.

IN THE BIBLE, *except Adam and Jesus we know all other humans have a human father and a mother.

In case of Adam, no father no mother.

In case of NT. Jesus, we have a human mother and spiritual father who is the Holy Spirit who was hovering over waters in Genesis 1 1&2. at the time when OT God created Heavens, earth and water.

As such, though John declare that word got fleshed and turned into his jesus, there was no word of god in the bible in the conception stage of nt. jesus.

It was physical act/s carried out by an entity called Holy Spirit which was hovering over waters at the time of creation, that came, overshadowed (the word that define how spiritual beings impregnates human woman) and fathered this child of gospels.

Having said the above, we know that bible was very clear as to when it's god started talking and when it's god used other means to do thing.

YOUR COMMENT.

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I understand you are saying the first light didn't exist because the Bible doesn't mention when it went away, or because we don't have two suns?

MY REPLY.

No you got it wrong. God made the first light to make day and night = day for this earth up to today. It is not the sun's job to create day. It was this first light's job to make day and night = day. Note that OT god even gave the names to be called, morning, evening, night = Day. So it is very specific that humanity does not deviate. The first light is the light that shines during day until 4th day of earth when sun was created to govern. Now where is the first light. Even without the sun, we must see the light that makes day. It was not withdrawn anywhere in the bible. So how do you rationalize that. We know from proven science that it was the sun's light, not any other light that makes day and night for this earth (of course with a little help from earth itself with the rotation).

Points to note here is that in that darkness before god stared to talk and order a light, we know Holy Spirit was hovering over the water and god was making out the creation. This holy sprit's glory does not emanates any light and it is confirmed in bible. As such, the usage of glory as a light as and when used in scriptures does not mean physical light but enlightment and knowledge and the usage is metaphorical not literal. Yet we find this pure concept abused so heavily by the Christians all over their scripture to prove NT. jesus was god. I understand you do not believe NT. jesus is god.

YOUR COMMENT:

You will have to direct me to the blasphemy you are talking about. As I mentioned, I have read the NT many times and still don't see anything NT Jesus = God.

MY REPLY.

Let us make a separate thread to discuss the Blasphemic writings in the Gospels. Currently we focus on seeing whether the Word as mentioned in John existed before creation in OT and whether this Word got fleshed and boned to become John's NT. jesus.

Edited by Ibrahim Rasheed

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Your explanation relies on The Spirit of the Lord being the Holy Spirit. From my studies I'm not so sure they are one in the same.

A very good point Son of Placid. If they are not the same, then even the father of NT. jesus was not there in the beginning, let alone the so called Word=NT. jesus. Yet, my answer is not based on these two spirits being the same. No.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ[a] took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed[b] to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

What I know for sure is that NT. jesus father is Holy Spirit. So this Holy Spirit is not God's Spirit or Spirit of god that hovered over the waters at creation. Actually my answer nor my topic is about Holy Spirit now the Spirit of God but Word that was supposed to be there at the beginning and the same word who was supposed to have created everything.

We know that there wasn't any sort of word, irrespective god's or anyother's at Genesis 1: 1 & 2 which we know god created using his hands. How can a non-existent word create before him? Earth, Heavens and Water including the Spirit of God was created by God himself. NT. Jesus came into existence when god started talking. Not before.

Regarding conception of nt. jesus, was it word of god that conceived him or holy spirit doing his overshadowing NT. Mary that got her pregnant?

Edited by Ibrahim Rasheed

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A very good point Son of Placid. If they are not the same, then even the father of NT. jesus was not there in the beginning, let alone the so called Word=NT. jesus. Yet, my answer is not based on these two spirits being the same. No.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ[a] took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed[b] to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

What I know for sure is that NT. jesus father is Holy Spirit. So this Holy Spirit is not God's Spirit or Spirit of god that hovered over the waters at creation. Actually my answer nor my topic is about Holy Spirit now the Spirit of God but Word that was supposed to be there at the beginning and the same word who was supposed to have created everything.

We know that there wasn't any sort of word, irrespective god's or anyother's at Genesis 1: 1 & 2 which we know god created using his hands. How can a non-existent word create before him? Earth, Heavens and Water including the Spirit of God was created by God himself. NT. Jesus came into existence when god started talking. Not before.

Regarding conception of nt. jesus, was it word of god that conceived him or holy spirit doing his overshadowing NT. Mary that got her pregnant?

Sorry for the delayed response. Real life keeps getting in the way.

Good question. Looking at it from a human perspective doesn't allow for all possible answers tho.

I believe there isn't enough evidence in any direction to come up with a "theory" we can both agree upon. Bear in mind, I'm not your average Christian so of course I'm not going to have the "mainstream" answer. I have no solid evidence when The Word came about. I don't really know what "beginning" "John" was talking about. There were 7 days of Creation; I don't believe God needed a rest. Either that means the earth needed a rest, or the creator did. God simply said "Be" and His orders were obeyed by His servants large and small, as in the Quran where God spoke to the elements and they answered. Is this the same "beginning" or another part of the same beginning? We can’t establish a date and time for the beginning, it may have spanned a million years.

Consider Jesus in the Quran. Played a ball of clay into a bird, gave life to it, and it flew away. If that’s not an indication the inside Jesus was the recipe for life from clay. Last used for making Adam?

Adding the Quran to the Bible instead of Quran against the bible hints another story. Is there a reason this event was recorded in the Quran and not in the NT?

I’m thinking, as predicted, that knowledge will only come together in the last days. Getting the religions together to admit they each have a piece, but nobody has it all is going to take till the last days.

I doubt I answered your questions.

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Sorry for the delayed response. Real life keeps getting in the way.

Good question. Looking at it from a human perspective doesn't allow for all possible answers tho.

I believe there isn't enough evidence in any direction to come up with a "theory" we can both agree upon. Bear in mind, I'm not your average Christian so of course I'm not going to have the "mainstream" answer. I have no solid evidence when The Word came about. I don't really know what "beginning" "John" was talking about. There were 7 days of Creation; I don't believe God needed a rest. Either that means the earth needed a rest, or the creator did. God simply said "Be" and His orders were obeyed by His servants large and small, as in the Quran where God spoke to the elements and they answered. Is this the same "beginning" or another part of the same beginning? We can’t establish a date and time for the beginning, it may have spanned a million years.

Consider Jesus in the Quran. Played a ball of clay into a bird, gave life to it, and it flew away. If that’s not an indication the inside Jesus was the recipe for life from clay. Last used for making Adam?

Adding the Quran to the Bible instead of Quran against the bible hints another story. Is there a reason this event was recorded in the Quran and not in the NT?

I’m thinking, as predicted, that knowledge will only come together in the last days. Getting the religions together to admit they each have a piece, but nobody has it all is going to take till the last days.

I doubt I answered your questions.

John and the beginning

John.1

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made..

The above is crystal clear as to what beginning John was declaring. Vs. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.. This means before anything created this NT. Jesus in the form of word was operational and in existence. That is the reason I asked when God started talking. Was anything created before god started talking.

John got caught with the lie when he declared his dreamed revelation. John 1. Vs3. Genesis 1 : 1 & 2 proves John out did his imagination.

Miracles.

I do not refute miracles neither I talk about it here. As such, the discussion is about whether NT. Jesus was word of god or not and did NT. Jesus created everything. Answer is NO. NT. Jesus did not create Heavens, earth and water.

Edited by Ibrahim Rasheed

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Consider Jesus in the Quran. Played a ball of clay into a bird, gave life to it, and it flew away. If that’s not an indication the inside Jesus was the recipe for life from clay. Last used for making Adam?

Adding the Quran to the Bible instead of Quran against the bible hints another story. Is there a reason this event was recorded in the Quran and not in the NT?

I’m thinking, as predicted, that knowledge will only come together in the last days. Getting the religions together to admit they each have a piece, but nobody has it all is going to take till the last days.

I doubt I answered your questions.

Of God's Miracles Adam AS and Hawwa AS (EVE), was way ahead (in terms of " miraculousness") than Jesus Christ (pbuh). We will talk about that later when we can define whether there is any Proof in the Bible except the dreamed up revelation from John or Paul (both say they wrote the dreams they had), THAT THE NT. Jesus is any sort of Word of god.

For a person to be word of god or all the words of god (spokesman for god) one has to exist beside god to be such. All Christians agree that NT. jesus is the spoken word of god. So god has to speak for a word to flow out of his mouth. No talk no NT. Jesus.

Christians try to argue and say none knows what beginning John talks here. It is totally wrong.:-

1. John claims his dreamed NT. Jesus was there at the beginning before creation. It was his dreamed NT. Jesus that created everything that was created or made.

John talks of before and after creation. Answer and proof that Heavens, earth and water was not created by any word of god is given in Post 14. John and the beginning.

2. Being such a tall claim by a supposed John who may even not be the John (apostle) it is highly risky to base one's faith on other people's dreams when one really talks about the last days and about heaven and hell.

Facts here are that John's gospel is not actually written by John though it is named after him. I suppose I do not have to clarify which John we are talking here.

Coming to the dream of John that got written on paper and made up the Christian belief as to what a god is, IS totally flawed even in the basics. The basics should agree with OT and NT.

When John claims it is word of god that created everything, then word of god must created everything in OT and NT. OT should not say God's hands made the heavens earth. Imagine god's right hand spreading the heavens, god's hands laid the foundation of earth?? This was not a metaphorical statement in Genesis.

With this type of clear writings in Genesis as to what god did and said, one should even question his own mentality if the same person is to believe on a dream written down on paper by an anonymous author, a dream, which was later labeled as John's when the Church made up the Bible.

THIS AMOUNTS TO THE SAYINGS "CLUTCHING STRAWS....."

Coming to the scripture...............

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. (CAN ANYONE SEE IT SAY GOD SAID THIS OR THAT HERE? IT IS A 100% NO.)

MY ARGUMENT WAS CAN ANYONE SEE IT SAY GOD SAID ??? OR TALKED??

HOW CAN OT GOD CREATE HEAVENS AND EARTH USING HIS WORD=JESUS WHEN HE CLEARLY DECLARE HE USED HIS ARMS???

IS OT Isaiah is a Liar???? when Isaiah reconfirms Genesis 1: 1-2 saying . Isa 48:13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens...??? IN CASE NT. JOHN WAS RIGHT. AND how can John claim his dreamed NT. Jesus created the creation???????????

As human beings, we have God's given gift of an exceptional mind. Intelligence that surpass every other animal that lives beside us here. I advise everyone to use it before this same human meets his Creator. Stop belittling God the Creator, Almighty. Stop abusing this merciful god's powers by misleading humanity from Him (God Almighty) by marketing someone else's dream as word of god, the same dream that has so much flaws related to God Almighty, The Creator.

Before one dies, one should start the simple practice of eliminating misconceptions and irrationalities from his belief related to his Creator, The God Almighty. That is the least one can do before he stand at the Supreme Court of Judgment where the Just Judge is God Almighty himself.

Edited by Ibrahim Rasheed

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The first strange thing about this debate is there was no such thing as a OT Jesus so no reason to call him NT Jesus.

You will have to show me where it says John and Paul dreamed all this stuff up.

All this about God's mouth, hands, arms. Was it metaphorical or literal? God has hands?

The Quran says God spoke to the "elements" and they answered. Do "elements" have mouths, hands, arms?

Just because it does not say God talked is inconclusive unless you can explain how God created with his hands.

The dream of John is the book of revelations, not the gospel. This may be some of the confusion here.

How do you know "Gods hands" is not metaphorical?

"The Church" made up the Bible???

Insisting that God did not talk at all in the beginning is 100% assumption.

Marketing someone elses dream? What dream?

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

"Word" replaces the Greek "logos ". It is a very technical term, and does not correspond to normal speech or language. In the Septuagint, one can find reference to it in Psalm 33:6.

By understanding its usage, a lot of the questions posed by Ibrahim become no longer valid.

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil

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If you do a search on "The word" in the OT you will come up with a tremendous amount of references. It takes some time but you will notice that often the word simply means word, but other times there are actions, or directives from the Word that is obviously more than a written book, tablet, parchment, etc.

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

Just to add, although I'm not a Christian (though I love Christ), Christ is said to be on the right hand side of the Father, and so, in Isaiah, God's right hand and arm could be referring to him, whereas in the Psalms, God creates the heavens through the word, which could also be referring to Christ, since he is called the Word of God.

By the above, I am just pointing out that, even if we accept that it is a contradiction to say God created the heavens by His hands and by His word - though surely both are metaphoric - yet, as far as Christology goes, there is room to interpret it in a way to reconcile the two different terms, since they are not really different, for they refer to the same thing, the person of Christ.

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Just to add, although I'm not a Christian (though I love Christ), Christ is said to be on the right hand side of the Father, and so, in Isaiah, God's right hand and arm could be referring to him, whereas in the Psalms, God creates the heavens through the word, which could also be referring to Christ, since he is called the Word of God.

By the above, I am just pointing out that, even if we accept that it is a contradiction to say God created the heavens by His hands and by His word - though surely both are metaphoric - yet, as far as Christology goes, there is room to interpret it in a way to reconcile the two different terms, since they are not really different, for they refer to the same thing, the person of Christ.

(wasalam)

Salaam Alaikum Guys. Insha Allah Will reply shortly. Little bit busy.

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The first strange thing about this debate is there was no such thing as a OT Jesus so no reason to call him NT Jesus.

Unfortunately though there is not an OT jesus, there is a NT. Jesus. This Jesus of NT is not the same Jesus Christ (pbuh) of Qura'an nor the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

As OT does not portray god becoming a son to pee, eat and drink on this earth, neither making a human pregnant like this Holy Spirit the father of NT jesus did. Most of the Christians declare that NT. Jesus is god himself who masqueraded as a man on this earth.

You will have to show me where it says John and Paul dreamed all this stuff up.

.

Except a few pages that can be counted to about 23 as to NT. Jesus, the balance of the bible is made up of writings from authors who wrote about NT. Jesus long after he was no more.

Imagine the back bone of bible. Paul. He could not relate his master piece story of meeting his god, the NT. Jesus same way twice though he had all the time in the world when he supposedly wrote it.

This Paul, another "witness for Jesus", saw and heard nothing, neither met this NT. Jesus when Paul was supposed to be in Jerusalem persecuting Christians?? when a supposed radical rabbi called Jesus was stirring up whole towns and villages one wonders where this guy was at that time.

(quote) The trail-blazing Christian missionary and apostle, St Paul, appears nowhere in the secular histories of his age (not in Tacitus, Pliny, no in Josephus, etc). No Jewish rabbinic writings of the 1st or 2nd century so much as mention a renegade student of Gamaliel who, having studied under the master and vigorously enforced orthodoxy on behalf of the high priests, experienced a life-changing vision on an away mission. Not a word emerges from the rabbis about the star pupil who "went bad", a heretic who s[Edited Out]ped the prohibitions of the Sabbath, urged his followers to disregarded Judaism's irksome dietary regulations, and pronounced the Law and circumcision obsolete. Surely such a renegade could not have completely escaped the attention of the scribes?(unquote) by Kenneth Humphreys,

It is a fact that gospel of Mark, Luke, Matthew were not written by them though it is named after them.

All this about God's mouth, hands, arms. Was it metaphorical or literal? God has hands?
. Well I have to say that Isaiah's confirmation is not metaphorical. .
The Quran says God spoke to the "elements" and they answered. Do "elements" have mouths, hands, arms?
. The reason why I don't rationalize with Christians using Qura'an is because these two jesuses are not the same. Qura'an states Allah does not beget son/s. Bible says no. NT. Jesus says he was fathered by Holy Spirit so he is son of god.
Just because it does not say God talked is inconclusive unless you can explain how God created with his hands.

Isaiah's explanation is there in the OT. He made sure Christians cannot steal the creation show from their god. Genesis 1: 1 & 2 plus Isaiah's confirmation before Christians wrote their bible make it impossible for the word who became flesh to create the Heavens, Earth and Water.

The dream of John is the book of revelations, not the gospel. This may be some of the confusion here.

How do you know "Gods hands" is not metaphorical?

Isaiah. Already mentioned. Unless you prove Isaiah wrong, the part of creation where OT god used his hands and did not talk still stands up as sole right of OT god. And, for the spoken word of god to become NT. Jesus one has to ask the bible where the spoken word of god made it possible to make NT. Mary pregnant. It is a shameful fact that Holy Spirit has to come and "overshadow" her to conceive NT. Jesus and she was with the child of Holy Spirit.

The message from god was not sufficient to make NT. Mary pregnant. This is a fact from the bible itself and you and I know that Holy Spirit is not word of god. Right??

"The Church" made up the Bible???

Look at your bible. The total words spoken by NT. Jesus himself can be put in 20-30 pages of your bible. Balance all are written by people long after he was dead according to bible.

Insisting that God did not talk at all in the beginning is 100% assumption.

How can you say assumption when I proved to you that OT god did not talk in Genesis 1: 1&2. When god started talking is clearly mentioned there.

Marketing someone else's dream? What dream?

Except the direct quotes from NT. Jesus himself, the bible was written up by different authors at different times of history. The sayings, quotes and ideas are not from Bible jesus himself but yes, this book was written about NT. Jesus. Not about god though you find some about god.

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(bismillah) (salam) Just to add, although I'm not a Christian (though I love Christ), Christ is said to be on the right hand side of the Father, and so, in Isaiah, God's right hand and arm could be referring to him, whereas in the Psalms, God creates the heavens through the word, which could also be referring to Christ, since he is called the Word of God. By the above, I am just pointing out that, even if we accept that it is a contradiction to say God created the heavens by His hands and by His word - though surely both are metaphoric - yet, as far as Christology goes, there is room to interpret it in a way to reconcile the two different terms, since they are not really different, for they refer to the same thing, the person of Christ. (wasalam)

Being at the right hand side of god does not means god's hands.

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

Being at the right hand side of god does not means god's hands.

Maybe it doesn't. But maybe it does. The point is that it can be reconciled through simple interpretation.

. Well I have to say that Isaiah's confirmation is not metaphorical. .

Why not? In the Qur'an, God has hands, and it's not clear whether it is meant metaphorically or not. However, it's the infallibles (as) who teach us that this is metaphorical. Why would Isaiah - a prophet - believe that God has literal hands?

It is a shameful fact that Holy Spirit has to come and "overshadow" her to conceive NT. Jesus and she was with the child of Holy Spirit.

And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her private part - and We breathed into it of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). Qur'ān 66:12

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Psalms 33:5. David uses "word" for the cause of creation of the heavens.

(wasalam)

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Maybe it doesn't. But maybe it does. The point is that it can be reconciled through simple interpretation.

Why not? In the Qur'an, God has hands, and it's not clear whether it is meant metaphorically or not. However, it's the infallibles (as) who teach us that this is metaphorical. Why would Isaiah - a prophet - believe that God has literal hands?

And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her private part - and We breathed into it of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). Qur'ān 66:12

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Psalms 33:5. David uses "word" for the cause of creation of the heavens.

(wasalam)

(wasalam)

And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her private part - and We breathed into it of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). Qur'ān 66:12

I am talking about Bible here. Bible's Holy Spirit over shadowing NT. Mary to make her pregnant. Thanks.

Regarding Psalms and other contradicting quotes on the same issue of creation, one has to say that if bible cannot say same thing twice the same way, then it is a fallacy.

If it becomes metaphorical, then this word cannot become flesh. What I have proven here is that NT. Jesus was not born because of any word of OT god neither NT. Jesus, as a form of word of god, created the heavens, earth and water. In his zeal to make NT. Jesus god, John overdid his imaginations in the gospels and revelation.

Edited by Ibrahim Rasheed

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Guest Jebreil

And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her private part - and We breathed into her of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). Qur'ān 66:12

I am talking about Bible here. Bible's Holy Spirit over shadowing NT. Mary to make her pregnant. Thanks.

Regarding Psalms and other contradicting quotes on the same issue of creation, one has to say that if bible cannot say same thing twice the same way, then it is a fallacy.

If it becomes metaphorical, then this word cannot become flesh. What I have proven here is that NT. Jesus was not born because of any word of OT god neither NT. Jesus, as a form of word of god, created the heavens, earth and water. In his zeal to make NT. Jesus god, John overdid his imaginations in the gospels and revelation.

(bismillah)

(salam)

You're imposing too many strict demands on the Bible, whereas we have similar occurrences in the Qur'ān - it's only fair that you don't use double standards.

Jesus is a word from God in the Qur'an, and he became flesh. But clearly Jesus wasn't actually a "word" in the sense that a sentence is made out of "words". Thus, it is metaphoric.

This overshadowing is not an indecent term. Perhaps you are reading it indecently. In the Qur'ān, God breathes from His spirit into Mary in this way:

And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her private part - and We breathed into her of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). Qur'ān 66:12

There is nothing indecent in either of these accounts.

Regarding Psalms and other contradicting quotes on the same issue of creation, one has to say that if bible cannot say same thing twice the same way, then it is a fallacy.

Two different prophets intepreted God's work in two different ways. In the Qur'ān we have something similar: we have the angel who takes the life of a human being, and we have God who takes the life of a human being. Yet, these two are not contradictory, but they are focusing on the different causes of "death". God takes the life, but through the angel.

Here, God's word brings about the world, but by His right hand He moulds and fashion it. Where the prior focuses on the wisdom and logos of God, the latter focuses on the power of God.

In his zeal to make NT. Jesus god, John overdid his imaginations in the gospels and revelation.

Are you sure that, in your zeal, you are not being unfair to the text?

I'm a Muslim, and I have no necessary relationship with the Bible, but it's a text which is sacred to many human beings - some of them extremely intellectual and spiritual, and so I'm obliged to give it the most charitable and reasonable reading I can offer. That's not to say I think it's perfect and preserved - but these particular objections are the result of wanting to see imperfection.

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil

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