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Female Genital Mutilation

why do some shias practice it?

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#201 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 07:57 AM

I found something else

1.
http://www.islamoped...ffects-soul-bod

The Religious Authority, Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah, issued a Fatwa in which he considered that all what causes harm to the soul, body and the sexual abilities of the males or females, as prohibited acts. He pointed out to the phenomenon of female circumcision and stressed that the woman's parents or guardians do not have the right to do any thing that is against her, especially if it causes harm to her.



His Eminence emphasized that female circumcision is neither legislated by the Islamic Sharia nor is it a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (p.). He also indicated that Islam did not deal with the inherent social customs in a head-on way, but in a gradual way that leads to the termination of this custom in the long run.



He also stressed that Islam has dealt with some customs and practices and even some concepts by building an intellectual foundation that respects the woman.



Answering some questions about the Islamic view regarding female circumcision, His Eminence said:



When we study the reported traditions in this context, we find that female circumcision was not legislated by the Islamic Sharia, nor had it any basis in Islam, but it was just a custom that was practiced in the pre-Islamic times as a means for the woman to adorn herself for her husband or for herself.



In this regard, we find that the traditions of Ahel El Beit, clearly show that the Sunna disapproves female circumcision, that is called "khafd Al-Jawari". Abo Basir Al-Maradi said that Imam Muhammad Al-Baqir (a.s.) has said: "I asked Abu Ja'far (a.s) about a bondwoman that was captured from the land of polytheism and there was no woman to circumcise her. The Imam said: "The Sunna recommended the circumcision of men and not of women." It is also narrated that Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq (a.s.) said: "circumcising a male slave is a part of the Sunna of the Prophet(p.), but circumcising a bondwoman is not." Another tradition shows that the Sunna did not recommend the female circumcision, but it is considered as one of the noble social habits. Musada bin Sadaqah said that Abi Abdillah (a.s.) has said: "Circumcising women is a noble deed but neither a part of the Sunna of the Prophet nor a must".



From the traditions that we have already mentioned, we clearly understand that the female circumcision is not legislated by the Sunna, which means that Islam did not make a recommendable legislation for female circumcision as an act that represents a preponderant interest that would justify such a legislation. But it is more one of the noble social habits that were considered among the traditions and customs that were practiced at that time. It might be also understood from the first tradition that the inquirer did not come to the Imam (a.s.) to ask him about the fatwa on circumcision, but about what to do in case there is no woman to perform it, and that made the Imam's answer to be considered as a direct guidance for the inquirer, considering that the female circumcision is an issue that is not related to Islam form the juristic point of view.



Perhaps, it is clear that facing the social customs that are embodied in people's behavior could not be approached in a head-on way. But, they should be dealt with in a gradual way that leads to the eradicating of this custom in the long run. Islam has practiced this in freeing the slaves. That is because the absolute prohibition may lead to big tremors in the social systems in life, while finding indirect ways to get rid of slavery has lead to its termination without the need for a social revolution that would have prevented Islam from achieving some of its basic goals at that time.



The same analysis may lead us to say that when Islam dealt with some traditions and conducts and even some concepts, it sought to find a rational foundation that respects the woman as a human being who has her own entity in life exactly like man, and which helps a lot in finding a psychological foundation that makes the woman has confidence in herself and feels her existence. In addition, this will make her feel that sex is not a social disgrace, but a human and natural need for both men and women. All that leads to eliminating many customs that are not preponderant in themselves, but rather have negative effects on more than one level.



Imam As-Sadiq (a.s) said: "When the women immigrated to the Prophet (p.), there was among them, a woman called Um Habib in another narration she is called Um Tiba-, who used to practice female circumcision. When the Prophet (p.) saw her, he told her: "Do you still practice the same job?" She replied, "Yes, until it becomes prohibited and you prevent me from doing it". Then the Prophet (p.) answered, "It is lawful. Come nearer and let me teach you." When she approached him, he said, "Um Habib, when you circumcise, don't wear out and don't mutilate, for this is better for the radiance of woman's face and is more preferred by the husband".



This Hadith pertains to the Islamic guidance that we mentioned and it may also point out to the gradual way that leads to the termination of customs in the long run. It also reveals, through the Prophet's (a.s) question to the woman, that female circumcision is not among the acts that are absolutely permissible. A kind of doubt is also revealed through the woman's question to the prophet (p.) whether this act is prohibited or not. Thus, the Prophet gave the woman the instructions as to how to perform this act stressing the necessity to perform it in a way that does not harm the woman. We even understand from the Prophet's saying: "Don't wear out and do not mutilate", that it is jurisprudentially prohibited to wear out or mutilate, since the religious jurists have concluded that the apparent meaning of the text shows that it is prohibited unless another evidence proves other wise.



As a result, female circumcision is neither a recommendable act of the Sunna, nor a must. Besides, what Islam has done regarding it is that it has made it a non jurisprudential issue in order to make a room for the changes of the social customs, starting from the fact that the Imams have emphasized that it is not a part of the Sunna, in addition to development of the intellectual foundation based on the experience along with contemplation all that paves the way for the scientific development to study the consequences and deciding accordingly on prohibiting the act or providing guidance.



Therefore, we consider that any issue that is not a part of the Islamic Sharia and does not cause harm, as a personal issue that could not be imposed.



Besides, woman's parents or guardians do not have the right to do what is against her interest that is determined scientifically and objectively. And all what leads to negative results whether physically or not, is deemed jurisprudentially prohibited.

2.
http://www.islamoped...ontrol-lust-wom
Sexual desire is a natural human desire that Islam neither blames nor looks down upon. Lust is to be controlled only if it is driven so excessively that impairs the balance of life (like excessive use of any power). Thus, not only [does] female circumcision have nothing to do with controlling (and decreasing sexual desire), but it is forbidden if it decreases women lust so much that it affects their sexual and marital life.

3.
http://www.islamoped...umcision-social
It is not a religious commandment or obligation; neither is it recommended. Rather it is a custom, but not sunna [practice of the Prophet]. It grew out of environments where people believed that it solved certain problems. However, it has been forbidden by Islamic law because of the harm it brings to the girl, and it is not permitted to force it upon her.

Edited by ImAli, 20 September 2011 - 08:04 AM.

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#202 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 08:22 AM

Polygamy or Polyandry are also supposedly considered as some sort of violation of human rights. The problem with this sort of reasoning that seems to be the norm of our contemporary times is that its awfully shallow and void of any realistic understanding of the negated concepts. Its akin to Paris Hilton saying that since there is no bread for the starving Africans, they should resort to eating Big Macs or Donuts. Its absurd. Then again most of the moral based derivatives are absurd and shallow.
The current value system that our contemporary 'human rights' are derived from is a European one that is imposed onto the world and legitimized by so called researches or academic writings. The problem with it is that it is blind, ignorant, arrogant, and terribly selfish. Its a slick and modern version of colonialism.


I have never heard of polygamy and polyandry being a violation of human rights. The cruelty of FORCED FGM is based on common sense and aside from the people who have had it ingrained in their beliefs due to customs, even a person that has grown up in a social vacuum would cringe when hearing about it.....not to mention even people such as Alhamdullah who admits it is part of her culture are disgusted by it, and I am sure she is not the only one

Edited by ImAli, 20 September 2011 - 08:29 AM.

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#203 AlHamdulillah110

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 08:59 AM

I found something else

1.
http://www.islamoped...ffects-soul-bod

The Religious Authority, Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah, issued a Fatwa in which he considered that all what causes harm to the soul, body and the sexual abilities of the males or females, as prohibited acts. He pointed out to the phenomenon of female circumcision and stressed that the woman's parents or guardians do not have the right to do any thing that is against her, especially if it causes harm to her.



His Eminence emphasized that female circumcision is neither legislated by the Islamic Sharia nor is it a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (p.). He also indicated that Islam did not deal with the inherent social customs in a head-on way, but in a gradual way that leads to the termination of this custom in the long run.



He also stressed that Islam has dealt with some customs and practices and even some concepts by building an intellectual foundation that respects the woman.



Answering some questions about the Islamic view regarding female circumcision, His Eminence said:



When we study the reported traditions in this context, we find that female circumcision was not legislated by the Islamic Sharia, nor had it any basis in Islam, but it was just a custom that was practiced in the pre-Islamic times as a means for the woman to adorn herself for her husband or for herself.



In this regard, we find that the traditions of Ahel El Beit, clearly show that the Sunna disapproves female circumcision, that is called "khafd Al-Jawari". Abo Basir Al-Maradi said that Imam Muhammad Al-Baqir (a.s.) has said: "I asked Abu Ja'far (a.s) about a bondwoman that was captured from the land of polytheism and there was no woman to circumcise her. The Imam said: "The Sunna recommended the circumcision of men and not of women." It is also narrated that Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq (a.s.) said: "circumcising a male slave is a part of the Sunna of the Prophet(p.), but circumcising a bondwoman is not." Another tradition shows that the Sunna did not recommend the female circumcision, but it is considered as one of the noble social habits. Musada bin Sadaqah said that Abi Abdillah (a.s.) has said: "Circumcising women is a noble deed but neither a part of the Sunna of the Prophet nor a must".



From the traditions that we have already mentioned, we clearly understand that the female circumcision is not legislated by the Sunna, which means that Islam did not make a recommendable legislation for female circumcision as an act that represents a preponderant interest that would justify such a legislation. But it is more one of the noble social habits that were considered among the traditions and customs that were practiced at that time. It might be also understood from the first tradition that the inquirer did not come to the Imam (a.s.) to ask him about the fatwa on circumcision, but about what to do in case there is no woman to perform it, and that made the Imam's answer to be considered as a direct guidance for the inquirer, considering that the female circumcision is an issue that is not related to Islam form the juristic point of view.



Perhaps, it is clear that facing the social customs that are embodied in people's behavior could not be approached in a head-on way. But, they should be dealt with in a gradual way that leads to the eradicating of this custom in the long run. Islam has practiced this in freeing the slaves. That is because the absolute prohibition may lead to big tremors in the social systems in life, while finding indirect ways to get rid of slavery has lead to its termination without the need for a social revolution that would have prevented Islam from achieving some of its basic goals at that time.



The same analysis may lead us to say that when Islam dealt with some traditions and conducts and even some concepts, it sought to find a rational foundation that respects the woman as a human being who has her own entity in life exactly like man, and which helps a lot in finding a psychological foundation that makes the woman has confidence in herself and feels her existence. In addition, this will make her feel that sex is not a social disgrace, but a human and natural need for both men and women. All that leads to eliminating many customs that are not preponderant in themselves, but rather have negative effects on more than one level.



Imam As-Sadiq (a.s) said: "When the women immigrated to the Prophet (p.), there was among them, a woman called Um Habib in another narration she is called Um Tiba-, who used to practice female circumcision. When the Prophet (p.) saw her, he told her: "Do you still practice the same job?" She replied, "Yes, until it becomes prohibited and you prevent me from doing it". Then the Prophet (p.) answered, "It is lawful. Come nearer and let me teach you." When she approached him, he said, "Um Habib, when you circumcise, don't wear out and don't mutilate, for this is better for the radiance of woman's face and is more preferred by the husband".



This Hadith pertains to the Islamic guidance that we mentioned and it may also point out to the gradual way that leads to the termination of customs in the long run. It also reveals, through the Prophet's (a.s) question to the woman, that female circumcision is not among the acts that are absolutely permissible. A kind of doubt is also revealed through the woman's question to the prophet (p.) whether this act is prohibited or not. Thus, the Prophet gave the woman the instructions as to how to perform this act stressing the necessity to perform it in a way that does not harm the woman. We even understand from the Prophet's saying: "Don't wear out and do not mutilate", that it is jurisprudentially prohibited to wear out or mutilate, since the religious jurists have concluded that the apparent meaning of the text shows that it is prohibited unless another evidence proves other wise.



As a result, female circumcision is neither a recommendable act of the Sunna, nor a must. Besides, what Islam has done regarding it is that it has made it a non jurisprudential issue in order to make a room for the changes of the social customs, starting from the fact that the Imams have emphasized that it is not a part of the Sunna, in addition to development of the intellectual foundation based on the experience along with contemplation all that paves the way for the scientific development to study the consequences and deciding accordingly on prohibiting the act or providing guidance.



Therefore, we consider that any issue that is not a part of the Islamic Sharia and does not cause harm, as a personal issue that could not be imposed.



Besides, woman's parents or guardians do not have the right to do what is against her interest that is determined scientifically and objectively. And all what leads to negative results whether physically or not, is deemed jurisprudentially prohibited.

2.
http://www.islamoped...ontrol-lust-wom
Sexual desire is a natural human desire that Islam neither blames nor looks down upon. Lust is to be controlled only if it is driven so excessively that impairs the balance of life (like excessive use of any power). Thus, not only [does] female circumcision have nothing to do with controlling (and decreasing sexual desire), but it is forbidden if it decreases women lust so much that it affects their sexual and marital life.

3.
http://www.islamoped...umcision-social
It is not a religious commandment or obligation; neither is it recommended. Rather it is a custom, but not sunna [practice of the Prophet]. It grew out of environments where people believed that it solved certain problems. However, it has been forbidden by Islamic law because of the harm it brings to the girl, and it is not permitted to force it upon her.


thats brilliant!! thanks :D

Edited by AlHamdulillah110, 20 September 2011 - 09:00 AM.

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#204 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:10 AM


thats brilliant!! thanks :D


I just copied and pasted.....don't give me the credit LOL. But you're welcome anyway!

#205 AlHamdulillah110

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:13 AM


I just copied and pasted.....don't give me the credit LOL. But you're welcome anyway!


lol. but you found some good stuff!!

#206 satyaban

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:32 AM


yes the risk is still there, my colleague had hers done in a hospital and had after care but still managed to get an infection, because even if the surgery goes well, the fact is that their legs are tied together for two weeks and they have to go to the loo like that which as you can imagine is very painful, uncomfortable and perfect for the spread of infections and bacteria.

maybe during the time of the Prophet (saw) since he had the knowledge of the heavens and the earth he could have suggested ways to prevent infections from developing, or even pain and thats perfectly fine, so thats why i said i would research it. But i cant be any clear enough that these days girls are not so lucky and if this type wasnt some danger to the girl then it wouldnt be a part of the whole meaning of FGM, there would be a type 1. people dont use sanitary methods, and girls with fgm are forced into marriages with old men enough to be their grandfathers and then they get pregnant at a young age and develop fistula (when the vaginal walls rips and creates a hole to the anus, leaving many of these young girls crippled for life, not all girls with fistula are crippled, but the rest of their lives will be very painful). If the Prophet (saw) was with us today im sure he would put right from wrong and suggest ways to do it, didnt he say dont chop the whole bit off just a tiny bit? but people dont listen to that because they infuse it with culture. The Prophet (saw)suggested a benefit which i said i would look into im not denying what he said, i just want to understand it because ive heard some very conflicting ideas regarding this quote from the Ahle Sunnah, i like to do my research which i am entitled to. I cant claim to be an expert at something if i dont know everything about it can i?

As for the benefits, the only benefit is to the man ( aside from what the Prophet (saw) might have said) for reasons already discussed in depth during the course of the whole topic.










While there is validity in what you say let's not cloud this issue as others have tried to do. For those who wish to discredit the human rights issues I hope theirs are not violated because they will have no recouse but to accept without even a whimper.
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#207 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:37 AM


lol. but you found some good stuff!!


There are 7 pages of fatwas from him http://www.islamoped....org/country/lb scroll to the bottom to turn pages (like you would on google)

Note...he is or was not very popular with some people, I guess because he spoke with reason most of the time


While there is validity in what you say let's not cloud this issue as others have tried to do. For those who wish to discredit the human rights issues I hope theirs are not violated because they will have no recouse but to accept without even a whimper.


Perhaps then you could pop your head in and explain to them that it should be accepted because it was the cultural norm of the ones who violated their rights LOOOL.

Edited by ImAli, 20 September 2011 - 09:37 AM.


#208 macisaac

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:42 AM


There are 7 pages of fatwas from him http://www.islamoped....org/country/lb scroll to the bottom to turn pages (like you would on google)

Note...he is or was not very popular with some people, I guess because he spoke with reason most of the time



No, it was because he was unqualified for the position he claimed for himself, and tended to come out with some pretty out there proclamations. Like this one. It's good he's quoting the traditions, and no one (amongst the Shi`a) is saying this is something wajib, and the traditions seem pretty clear it is not from the Sunna, but to jump from that to this claim of "Islam really wanted to abolish this but it just couldn't" is absurd. Think of how many other customs from Jahiliyya that Islam did abolish. If something is evil, you think Islam would have been too shy to prohibit it? Even if it had to be gradual, it's absurd to think gradual meant "not in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh), in fact, not until non-Muslims from the West disapproved of this custom and called it barbaric so now we have to redefine our laws to suit their approval". How can one conclude from the Prophet (pbuh) giving instructions on proper procedure to the lady who was circumcising (and who clearly said she'd stop it if it was prohibited) to mean that he really wanted it to be abolished? Why wouldn't he have just said so when it's apparent from the tradition she would have been willing to do so had that been the case?

#209 satyaban

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:43 AM

Marbles was pretty much correct but his comment added nothing to the topic and while it may be old to some it is new.
I think everything that can be said has been said and those whose hearts, minds and eyes that have been closed will remain so.
So I am shoving of but not because of unwanted advice.

#210 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:43 AM



No, it was because he was unqualified for the position he claimed for himself, and tended to come out with some pretty out there proclamations. Like this one. It's good he's quoting the traditions, and no one (amongst the Shi`a) is saying this is something wajib, and the traditions seem pretty clear it is not from the Sunna, but to jump from that to this claim of "Islam really wanted to abolish this but it just couldn't" is absurd. Think of how many other customs from Jahiliyya that Islam did abolish. If something is evil, you think Islam would have been too shy to prohibit it? Even if it had to be gradual, it's absurd to think gradual meant "not in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh), in fact, not until non-Muslims from the West disapproved of this custom and called it barbaric so now we have to redefine our laws to suit their approval". How can one conclude from the Prophet (pbuh) giving instructions on proper procedure to the lady who was circumcising (and who clearly said she'd stop it if it was prohibited) to mean that he really wanted it to be abolished? Why wouldn't he have just said so when it's apparent from the tradition she would have been willing to do so had that been the case?


I know alot of people who loved him.....are you promoting FGM and do you really think people would have accepted Islam had they abolished everything suddenly?

Edited by ImAli, 20 September 2011 - 09:45 AM.


#211 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:46 AM


are you promoting FGM?

LOL. You never learn, do you?

#212 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:47 AM

LOL. You never learn, do you?


And you always have something rude to say.
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#213 macisaac

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:48 AM


I know alot of people who loved him.....are you promoting FGM?



It has nothing to do with loving him (lots of people love all sorts of people), but simply stating he was unqualified (he was not even a mujtahid yet he put himself forward as a marja`). And as to me "promoting FGM", I'm simply saying that if Islam has clearly not prohibited something, but rather set guidelines for its practice, who are we to then say it's forbidden?

#214 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:53 AM



It has nothing to do with loving him (lots of people love all sorts of people), but simply stating he was unqualified (he was not even a mujtahid yet he put himself forward as a marja`). And as to me "promoting FGM", I'm simply saying that if Islam has clearly not prohibited something, but rather set guidelines for its practice, who are we to then say it's forbidden?


One question....when it is done without consent and the decision is made by another person it has been shown to cause a significant amount of psychological harm so how could Islam permit it being done without the females consent. If a grown woman goes on her own to have surgery on her vagina fine...but other than that I don't see how people can justify it.

#215 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:53 AM


And you always have something rude to say.

How is it rude? I'm just pointing out that you seem unable to grasp the concept that someone can say a certain practice is permissible (i.e. not forbidden) in Islam, without actually promoting it. Is it really so difficult to understand?

#216 AlHamdulillah110

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:55 AM

http://www.stopfgmku.../update001e.htm

kurdistan bans fgm

#217 macisaac

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:58 AM


One question....when it is done without consent and the decision is made by another person it has been shown to cause a significant amount of psychological harm so how could Islam permit it being done without the females consent. If a grown woman goes on her own to have surgery on her vagina fine...but other than that I don't see how people can justify it.


A baby boy is circumcised without his consent as well, and now you have some idiots that go on whining about how they've been mutilated because of it, but does that really make it wrong? As to showing it causes a significant amount of psychological harm, how would that be any more true in the case of a baby girl as opposed to a baby boy? I was circumcised as a baby, and don't remember a thing about it, though I'm very glad my parents (who are not Muslim) did so when they did.

Regardless, the issue is not one of "what ifs". This is a practice that clearly existed during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and he did _not_ prohibit it, rather he gave instruction on how to properly do it if one does so. If it were an evil, it would have been forbidden. As it was not forbidden, we are in no position to second guess that (though we ought also be clear it is neither something that is obligatory nor is it from the Sunna, so if people choose not to practice this custom it is their choice). Remember, it's not only wrong to allow what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, it is also wrong to forbid what they have allowed.

#218 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:00 AM

How is it rude? I'm just pointing out that you seem unable to grasp the concept that someone can say a certain practice is permissible (i.e. not forbidden) in Islam, without actually promoting it. Is it really so difficult to understand?


I completely understand it is not forbidden......although I completely disagree with it being done when it is the decision of another.
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#219 AlHamdulillah110

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:01 AM

guys please read carefully. We have already said that the type the Prophet (saw) was talking about is the minor operation, and im sure he had ways to perform the procedure which would not cause harm and had methods to stop infection.

unfortunately, nowerdays it doesnt happen that way. The kind of fgm that is a human rights issue is the one that puts the child in harms way and strips her of her rights to refuse as an adult because otherwise she will face a lifetime of misery and may even be killed as it has already been detailed in previous posts. If it is recommended then why is it forced? that is the question. NO ONE IS DENYING WHAT THE PROPHET (SAW) SAID but what is being said is that FGM causes many problems for the mother and child, and you only need to do some research into the human rights aspect to understand why its there.

and im repeating myself PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO RESEARCH INTO THE ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT I WILL.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110, 20 September 2011 - 10:03 AM.

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#220 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:02 AM


A baby boy is circumcised without his consent as well, and now you have some idiots that go on whining about how they've been mutilated because of it, but does that really make it wrong? As to showing it causes a significant amount of psychological harm, how would that be any more true in the case of a baby girl as opposed to a baby boy? I was circumcised as a baby, and don't remember a thing about it, though I'm very glad my parents (who are not Muslim) did so when they did.

Regardless, the issue is not one of "what ifs". This is a practice that clearly existed during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and he did _not_ prohibit it, rather he gave instruction on how to properly do it if one does so. If it were an evil, it would have been forbidden. As it was not forbidden, we are in no position to second guess that (though we ought also be clear it is neither something that is obligatory nor is it from the Sunna). Remember, it's not only wrong to allow what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, it is also wrong to forbid what they have allowed.


While it is true that a baby may not remember.....there really aren't any benefits to it being done to a female. As for circumcision in a male it is shown to reduce the occurrence of infections, STD's, and cancer.

Edited by ImAli, 20 September 2011 - 10:04 AM.

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#221 macisaac

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:03 AM


While it is true that a baby may not remember.....there really aren't any benefits to it being done a female. As for circumcision in a male it is shown to reduce the occurrence of infections, STD's, and cancer.


I'm not trying to compare them in that circumcision for boys is not something optional. But the claim of psychological harm falls short when the same could equally be said for boys as well.

#222 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:07 AM

guys please read carefully. We have already said that the type the Prophet (saw) was talking about is the minor operation, and im sure he had ways to perform the procedure which would not cause harm and had methods to stop infection.

unfortunately, nowerdays it doesnt happen that way. The kind of fgm that is a human rights issue is the one that puts the child in harms way and strips her of her rights to refuse as an adult because otherwise she will face a lifetime of misery and may even be killed as it has already been detailed in previous posts. If it is recommended then why is it forced? that is the question. NO ONE IS DENYING WHAT THE PROPHET (SAW) SAID but what is being said is that FGM causes many problems for the mother and child, and you only need to do some research into the human rights aspect to understand why its there.

and im repeating myself PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO RESEARCH INTO THE ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT I WILL.


Yes, if it is made permissible some people completely ignore the guidelines and think they can do a complete rearrangement down there.


I'm not trying to compare them in that circumcision for boys is not something optional. But the claim of psychological harm falls short when the same could equally be said for boys as well.


Most of them are not doing it when a girl is a few days old....they are doing it much later, and the recovery is horrible where they can't even walk, but when men have it done later in life they walk out of the clinic or hospital the same day.
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#223 AlHamdulillah110

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:09 AM


I'm not trying to compare them in that circumcision for boys is not something optional. But the claim of psychological harm falls short when the same could equally be said for boys as well.


yes but the problem is that girls that refuse tend to be ostracised, ridiculed, killed, disowned. A girl goes through more physical changes than a man, she has periods, and thats painful enough for uncircumcised women, and circumcised women have it a lot worse. It takes an uncircumcised woman 2 minutes to pee if that, and it would take a circumcised woman around 10 minutes. she will have problems during birth, and may deliver a still born, she has the risk of getting fistula. she wont enjoy sex the way its meant to which can cause psychological problems due to frustration and sex will be excruciating for the majority of circumcised women. most girls get circumcised at the age of 6 or 8 and if they have type 2-4 which is the more common version they will suffer from anxiety, flashbacks, low self esteem, depression, suicidal thoughts, martial problems and emotional problems, because woman are more emotional than men. If a woman doesnt get circumcised then she is not thought to be a woman but a sexually deviant creature and will never get married.

before she gives birth she has to be unfibulated (cut up) and then stictched up again. Imagine if she has 5 children, that will mean that she will have to undergo circumcision 6 times in her life, going through all that pain again.

and its the equivelent of male castration which i have provided proof of in earlier pages, imagine that guys...

Edited by AlHamdulillah110, 20 September 2011 - 10:13 AM.


#224 macisaac

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:11 AM

Yes, if it is made permissible some people completely ignore the guidelines and think they can do a complete rearrangement down there.


Has anyone here been advocating that?

Most of them are not doing it when a girl is a few days old....they are doing it much later, and the recovery is horrible where they can't even walk, but when men have it done later in life they walk out of the clinic or hospital the same day.


I actually knew a guy who had it done as an adult. He was convert and it had not been done to him as a baby, so he decided to have it done. It was not so simple as what you might think. I recall him saying it was the most painful experience of his life, and recovery does take quite some time afterwards (just think about it, you're cutting a significant piece of flesh off the body in an area that is going to be used daily, multiple times even.

#225 ImAli

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:13 AM


Has anyone here been advocating that?



I actually knew a guy who had it done as an adult. He was convert and it had not been done to him as a baby, so he decided to have it done. It was not so simple as what you might think. I recall him saying it was the most painful experience of his life, and recovery does take quite some time afterwards (just think about it, you're cutting a significant piece of flesh off the body in an area that is going to be used daily, multiple times even.


I didn't say it wasn't painful....I am sure it hurts like h3ll, but I bet he was able to walk soon after.

Edited by ImAli, 20 September 2011 - 10:13 AM.




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