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Female Genital Mutilation

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8 or 10 years old still counts as a late time in your life to get circumcised :o

no, girls usually get circumcised from the ages of 0-16. Prophet (saw) did say in that hadith to do it before puberty or when the girl is 8, so its not to old.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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no, girls usually get circumcised from the ages of 0-16. Prophet (saw) did say in that hadith to do it before puberty or when the girl is 8, so its not to old.

Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271)

I don't see our Prophet (supposedly) saying that anywhere.

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I don't see our Prophet (supposedly) saying that anywhere.

i just spoke to her and she said she was 6 years old, heres the bit of the interview i took of her "I was 6 years old when I was circumcised and my two older brothers were also circumcised on the same day as me". apologies there, im pretty sure the hadith said 8 but it was 7. Nevertheless, fgm takes place between 0-16 years.

http://www.tashayyu....le-circumcision

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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If the prophet didn't circumcise his daughter then why are the clerics saying it is recommended....also I am too lazy to read over everything again and am in a hurry....but what is the hadith that is "weak" and "may be fabricated" the one that the clerics are using to base the recommendation on?

Edited by ImAli

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If the prophet didn't circumcise his daughter then why are the clerics saying it is recommended....also I am too lazy to read over everything again and am in a hurry....but what is the hadith that is "weak" and "may be fabricated" the one that the clerics are using to base the recommendation on?

here it is:

There are dichotomous differences of opinion among Sunni scholars in regards to female genital cutting. These differences of opinion range from forbidden to obligatory. The debate focuses around a hadith from the Sunni collections. One narration states that "a woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. Muhammad said to her, 'Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.'"[28]Abu Dawood, who relates the narration in his collection, states the hadith is poor in authenticity.[29] Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani describes this hadith as poor in authenticity, and quotes Imam Ahmad Bayhaqi’s point of view that it is "poor, with a broken chain of transmission" [30] Zein al-Din al-Iraqi points out in his commentary on Al-Ghazali’s Ihya ulum al-din (I:148) that the mentioned hadith has a weak chain of transmission."[31] Yusuf ibn Abd-al-Barr comments: "Those who consider (female) circumcision a sunna, use as evidence this hadith of Abu al-Malih, which is based solely on the evidence of Hajjaj ibn Artaa, who cannot be admitted as an authority when he is the sole transmitter. The consensus of Muslim scholars shows that circumcision is for men"

http://en.wikipedia....ital_mutilation

but this has been confirmed by muslim council of Britian, many anthropologists, human rights organisations, etc, many Middle Eastern countries and African countries (is being practised in 28 african countries, but is banned in 19) and recently Kurdistan and Egypt, on the basis of rejecting this hadith.

you might want to read this, it discusses it in more detail

http://www.popcouncil.org/pdfs/frontiers/reports/FGM_Islam.pdf

this is what one of the leading organisations who lobbied for legislation against FGM in the uk and became successful said:

http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/fgm/fgm-islam

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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i just spoke to her and she said she was 6 years old, heres the bit of the interview i took of her "I was 6 years old when I was circumcised and my two older brothers were also circumcised on the same day as me". apologies there, im pretty sure the hadith said 8 but it was 7. Nevertheless, fgm takes place between 0-16 years.

http://www.tashayyu....le-circumcision

A million thanks for the link, it's helped a great deal in understanding the shi'i perspective. But only one of the hadiths in the link says a woman should be circumcised at the age of 7, and it was from Imam Ali (as) not the Prophet and there's a likelihood this narration could be weak. Either way, i'm hoping for the best in your research with regards to female circumcision.

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A million thanks for the link, it's helped a great deal in understanding the shi'i perspective. But only one of the hadiths in the link says a woman should be circumcised at the age of 7, and it was from Imam Ali (as) not the Prophet and there's a likelihood this narration could be weak. Either way, i'm hoping for the best in your research with regards to female circumcision.

maybe, but as many have already said, all these hadiths are from reliable sources some of which the ahle sunna have already confirmed as weak which is what im trying to figure out, but thanks anyways ^_^

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Np, keep in mind many sunni scholars of hadith reject these narrations contained in our books on the pretext of some non-existent lying nature within Shias (or as they like to call us, 'Rafidis'). Very weak premise I might add and such opinion holds no value and should make things much easier.

Edited by La'nat Ma Man

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Np, keep in mind many sunni scholars of hadith reject these narrations contained in our books on the pretext of some non-existent lying nature within Shias (or as they like to call us, 'Rafidis'). Very weak premise I might add and such opinion holds no value and should make things much easier.

Yeah i get you, but this was also in their books which they denied, i might be wrong but i dont think they hold our books to much value anyway and they've rejected it from their own sources, and thats why when i found the same hadith in ours i was a bit baffled, but i mean, i cant say its wrong because that would be ignorant of me, i have have to do some research is all.

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I find it ironic you find female circumcision/FGM ironic and yet you don't have a problem with male circumcision.

The quran isn't a medical textbook and it isn't a scientific textbook. There is no good reason for performing this surgery or any kind of unnecessary surgery at all. It is highly unethical for doctors to conduct unnecessary surgery *especially without* informed consent(again, especially), such as in this case. Any doctor who willingly goes against the established international ideas of medical ethics is a criminal and should be tried and their licenses should be revoked. Doing unnecessary surgery on someone against their will is assault. How would you feel if i knocked you out, cut you open and just generally messed around? Would you report it? A child isn't capable of consenting for medically unnecessary surgery like this. It is indisputably and unequivocally assault, a crime which requires criminal punishment with the full force of the law.

men find it more sexually pleasing during intercourse with a circumcised woman

Don't know how much you know about the whole biological construction but i really highly doubt this.

there are western men who also share the same opinions as men in practising communities.

Again, almost any man in the modern west and we live in modern times would find it absolutely horrible. I doubt anyone in the west, who follows western culture would ask or expect a woman to have such a thing.

There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.”

Then surely, not cutting at all is even better.

Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

One doctor, one source. Sounds like a Muslim name. See my problem? Just because one potential biased doctor says its fine it doesn't mean it represents the right view or the view of the medical community. A lot of nazi doctors thought human experimentation was fine, what if i only quoted one of them as my source? Obviously one particular doctor isn't God among the doctors.

Also, this might of been true in a time without soap and showers but you know...just pop down to the store and buy some soap. Take a shower every once and awhile. Problem solved.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Yeah, of course. Because, hey, the woman isn't important at all. It's all about the husband. Lets perform some potentially life changing and irreversible surgery on the woman to reduce the husbands mild annoyance..

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Stimulation? Yeah, because pleasure is only for men.

She doesn't provide any sources to any scientific or medical journals and should be disregarded. You aren't a medical professional so as far as you know she could just be making up convincing sounding mumbo jumbo that isn't supported by any evidence.

It's just fundamentally wrong. I doubt you would get such a thing done to your daughters if you had them and if you did you deserve to end up in court. If you're even able to find a doctor who has forgotten so much of his medical education and ethics who is willing... (All my opinion of course)

Besides the whole barbarous nature of the whole procedure it also doesn't make logical sense. The quran states in numerous places God created us exactly as he intended to and he was happy with every little thing he did to our creation. It is almost slapping God in the face by altering the very body he created for us. If he wanted the body in such a state he could of easily made it so but he did not. It is illogical to assume it is his will for us to later alter the very thing he created to his exact will.

Edited by kingpomba
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I find it ironic you find female circumcision/FGM ironic and yet you don't have a problem with male circumcision.

The quran isn't a medical textbook and it isn't a scientific textbook. There is no good reason for performing this surgery or any kind of unnecessary surgery at all. It is highly unethical for doctors to conduct unnecessary surgery *especially without* informed consent(again, especially), such as in this case. Any doctor who willingly goes against the established international ideas of medical ethics is a criminal and should be tried and their licenses should be revoked. Doing unnecessary surgery on someone against their will is assault. How would you feel if i knocked you out, cut you open and just generally messed around? Would you report it? A child isn't capable of consenting for medically unnecessary surgery like this. It is indisputably and unequivocally assault, a crime which requires criminal punishment with the full force of the law.

Don't know how much you know about the whole biological construction but i really highly doubt this.

ive interviewed men and spoken to men about it, there are videos made by men on youtube publicly expressing their desire in having intercourse with circumcised women, not all men, but certainly a large majority in these cultures.

Again, almost any man in the modern west and we live in modern times would find it absolutely horrible. I doubt anyone in the west, who follows western culture would ask or expect a woman to have such a thing.

there are some men in the west who are non muslim and do not belong to the African/Arabian culture who prefer circumcised women, i can give you a video of a man on youtube.

Then surely, not cutting at all is even better.

agreed.

One doctor, one source. Sounds like a Muslim name. See my problem? Just because one potential biased doctor says its fine it doesn't mean it represents the right view or the view of the medical community. A lot of nazi doctors thought human experimentation was fine, what if i only quoted one of them as my source? Obviously one particular doctor isn't God among the doctors.

agreed.

Also, this might of been true in a time without soap and showers but you know...just pop down to the store and buy some soap. Take a shower every once and awhile. Problem solved.

agreed.

Yeah, of course. Because, hey, the woman isn't important at all. It's all about the husband. Lets perform some potentially life changing and irreversible surgery on the woman to reduce the husbands mild annoyance..

yep, but its important to note that its the women who usually enforce it on girls, but their intentions are so that their daughters dont face ridicule and can get married.

Stimulation? Yeah, because pleasure is only for men.

LOL

She doesn't provide any sources to any scientific or medical journals and should be disregarded. You aren't a medical professional so as far as you know she could just be making up convincing sounding mumbo jumbo that isn't supported by any evidence.

It's just fundamentally wrong. I doubt you would get such a thing done to your daughters if you had them and if you did you deserve to end up in court. If you're even able to find a doctor who has forgotten so much of his medical education and ethics who is willing... (All my opinion of course)

Besides the whole barbarous nature of the whole procedure it also doesn't make logical sense. The quran states in numerous places God created us exactly as he intended to and he was happy with every little thing he did to our creation. It is almost slapping God in the face by altering the very body he created for us. If he wanted the body in such a state he could of easily made it so but he did not. It is illogical to assume it is his will for us to later alter the very thing he created to his exact will.

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Damn that is really funny but probably true because they will be hard pressed to find women with the same opinions as theirs.

The would require absolutely no self esteem.

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No more discussion re female private parts. This is an Islamic forum and we need to mantain certain level of veil and respect.

Inappropriate posts removed. Thankyou for your understanding.

Regards

I

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No more discussion re female private parts. This is an Islamic forum and we need to mantain certain level of veil and respect. Inappropriate posts removed. Thankyou for your understanding. Regards I

Heavy handed and itself inappropriate. This is simple anatomical information and should not be any more controversial than talking about the structure of the heart. Prudish, disappointing, and un-Islamic, inshAllah. (Our faith is not supposed to be prudish in discussing such matters)

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Heavy handed and itself inappropriate. This is simple anatomical information and should not be any more controversial than talking about the structure of the heart. Prudish, disappointing, and un-Islamic, inshAllah. (Our faith is not supposed to be prudish in discussing such matters)

Feel free to discuss it with your adult friends in private. This is a public forum with a lot of members being kids. While we have allowed so many topics on anatomy (only so that members can learn the Islamic point of view), we don't appreciate members getting too casual about private parts of either gender.

I

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I find it ironic you find female circumcision/FGM ironic and yet you don't have a problem with male circumcision.

You're comparing male circumcision with female circumcision?

Just an actual example:

My son (3.5 year old) has just circumcised based on the order of my pediatrics because he suffered from phimosis.

While I don't know up until now if there any condition that will be treatable by female circumcision.

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Feel free to discuss it with your adult friends in private. This is a public forum with a lot of members being kids. While we have allowed so many topics on anatomy (only so that members can learn the Islamic point of view), we don't appreciate members getting too casual about private parts of either gender. I

It was a simple verbal discussion InshAllah. We're not supposed to be Victorians here.

There's nothing shameful or inappropriate about the information, and we should be able to discuss the subject freely in a verbal, clinical fashion. You actually send damaging messages to these hypothetical youth (none of which in point of fact are even reading this thread) by giving the impression that there is something shameful or hush hush about it.

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It was a simple verbal discussion InshAllah. We're not supposed to be Victorians here.

There's nothing shameful or inappropriate about the information, and we should be able to discuss the subject freely in a verbal, clinical fashion. You actually send damaging messages to these hypothetical youth (none of which in point of fact are even reading this thread) by giving the impression that there is something shameful or hush hush about it.

Interesting.... how you see it as a simple verbal discussion. I maybe wrong but i saw things going the wrong route when I started reading comments such as:

"The sister was refering to a p**** and these guys have never seen a c******* except in pictures"

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Interesting.... how you see it as a simple verbal discussion. I maybe wrong but i saw things going the wrong route when I started reading comments such as: "The sister was refering to a p**** and these guys have never seen a c******* except in pictures"

First off, one thing. PENIS and CLITORIS are not dirty words to be starred out like they're obscenities. They are clinical, medical terms. The prophet (saws) and aimmah (as), when they talked of such matters, used the proper Arabic terms without getting bent out of shape about it.

Second, if one or two posts are too flippant, maybe the intelligent thing to have done would have been to actually read the other posts instead of crudely slashing and burning everything in a 10 post radius en masse.

A medical equivalent would be "treating" a small infection on one of the fingers by hacking off the whole hand with a scimitar.

I recognize there's a line somewhere, but please use a bit more precision in trying to identify it and enforce it in future.

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First off, one thing. PENIS and CLITORIS are not dirty words to be starred out like they're obscenities. They are clinical, medical terms. The prophet (saws) and aimmah (as), when they talked of such matters, used the proper Arabic terms without getting bent out of shape about it.

Second, if one or two posts are too flippant, maybe the intelligent thing to have done would have been to actually read the other posts instead of crudely slashing and burning everything in a 10 post radius en masse.

A medical equivalent would be "treating" a small infection on one of the fingers by hacking off the whole hand with a scimitar.

I recognize there's a line somewhere, but please use a bit more precision in trying to identify it and enforce it in future.

I agree with you but Inshallah has a point also. While there is nothing wrong with the words penis and clitoris perhaps my post intamating the size of some members was going to far with my criticism.

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First off, one thing. PENIS and CLITORIS are not dirty words to be starred out like they're obscenities. They are clinical, medical terms. The prophet (saws) and aimmah (as), when they talked of such matters, used the proper Arabic terms without getting bent out of shape about it.

Yeh and the Prophet and Aimmah were well aware of their audience when they discussed those matters. It is not like they discussed it in front of everyone including kids. Their teachings were always appropriate to their audience.

Second, if one or two posts are too flippant, maybe the intelligent thing to have done would have been to actually read the other posts instead of crudely slashing and burning everything in a 10 post radius en masse.

I can't just delete the primary posts and allow responses to it.

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Yeh and the Prophet and Aimmah were well aware of their audience when they discussed those matters. It is not like they discussed it in front of everyone including kids. Their teachings were always appropriate to their audience.

All of them were supportive of one another and reflected the wrong kind of message.

You mean the message you want to be said. However I am glad you did not lock the thread.

Edited by satyaban

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King Pomba, there are studies that show that male circ may actually be beneficial in reducing some form of diseases, but men can still enjoy private relations with their partners, whereas women with fgm endure pain for the rest of their lives, its equivalent to male castration, and the type of fgm will have an impact on private relations with her partner. I was just speaking to a woman with type 3 today and she said its a constant pain, during menses, in intimate relations, when using the bathroom and especially during the birthing process, she also said that sometimes she doesnt feel like a real woman, and she will never know or understand what its like to live a life without all this pain and not feeling pleasure.

A sheikh made an interesting point today, Allah (swt) says that those who are ill are not allowed to fast because it causes harm to them. so why should women undergo fgm when it clearly causes harm to them?

i do think that this topic has been discussed at length and would like to apologise if i have offended anyone. This forum is a platform of knowledge and discussions and i have read a lot of controversial discussions on this forum, but thats a good thing because we get to learn about new things. Maybe im wrong but thats the way i see it.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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My son (3.5 year old) has just circumcised based on the order of my pediatrics because he suffered from phimosis.

I think you might of missed the bits where i kept saying medically unnecessary. Almost every doctor would agree doing such a thing is reasonable and necessary, to withhold such a treatment would be negligent. The same can't be said about male circumcision for no other reason than centuries old tradition. (Before you say, oh wait there are studies that prove x! I study science at one of the top universities in my country so i know how to read a scientific article...and i have read them. The evidence is far from conclusive to justify something like this, especially with the whole ethical dilemma of informed consent. I talked about this extensively elsewhere and i don't wish to derail the thread, if you want im sure you can find it through search).

Yeh and the Prophet and Aimmah were well aware of their audience when they discussed those matters. It is not like they discussed it in front of everyone including kids. Their teachings were always appropriate to their audience.

Well for one kids wouldn't even understand what these words mean so...its not really an issue is it?

Secondly, they've got to learn about their body sooner or later. No use keeping it in the dark. The human body isn't dirty it is what it is.

I also doubt there are many kids replying in this thread...feel free to prove me wrong.

Kingbompa circumcision isn't mentioned in the Quran.

Yes, i know. I found this in my own private research. The quran also says Allah made you body just as he intended, he made it just as he wanted. If he wanted circumcision or any similar surgery (getting a tattoo, getting horns implated...hey..whatever floats your boat) he would of made us with such things, for he is all powerful. It would be an offense to God to modify the very body he said he created exactly to his specifications in such a way that is very difficult to reverse (i only said this because people will start mentioning haircuts and other silly responses). If the quran says we should not do these things but it is said in the hadiths, which are not 100% perfect, i think in my own personal analysis that it is not justifiable using the theology and people are just finding ways to hang onto a pre-7th century Arabian tradition or worse justify what they do to girls.

I'd like to point out, if there is any mistakes, even though it says agnostic on the side...i'm not a imam or an ayotollah or anything of that nature and i'm not handing out fatwas. Just so its crystal clear. (someone once accused me into misleading people i could give out fatwas or something...no idea how). It's just my opinion i'm entitled to express just like you are. Surely if you extend the privilege to yourself it would be absurd and down right mean not to extend it to me.

I don't think its right to go around banning or censoring people either. You might be able to cover everyones eyes on this forum, a little slice of the internet. Theres the entire rest of the internet; Not to mention the real, outside world where you can't just cover the eyes of the people you think should not be furnished with opinions of certain groups. That is unless everyone wishes to cloister themselves off entirely from the outside world but we can all theorize how well that would work out..

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I think you might of missed the bits where i kept saying medically unnecessary. Almost every doctor would agree doing such a thing is reasonable and necessary, to withhold such a treatment would be negligent. The same can't be said about male circumcision for no other reason than centuries old tradition. (Before you say, oh wait there are studies that prove x! I study science at one of the top universities in my country so i know how to read a scientific article...and i have read them. The evidence is far from conclusive to justify something like this, especially with the whole ethical dilemma of informed consent. I talked about this extensively elsewhere and i don't wish to derail the thread, if you want im sure you can find it through search).

And I think you missed the implication that if I had circumcised my son earlier in his life (which unfortunately doctors in my country aren't used to circumcised babies of 7 day old, unlike doctors in US), he would not have to suffer from the infection that necessitated his circumcision urgently. Circumcision here is in fact the most effective preventive action considering we may never know whether this condition will develop or not.

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And I think you missed the implication that if I had circumcised my son earlier in his life (which unfortunately doctors in my country aren't used to circumcised babies of 7 day old, unlike doctors in US), he would not have to suffer from the infection that necessitated his circumcision urgently. Circumcision here is in fact the most effective preventive action considering we may never know whether this condition will develop or not.

Having an appendix is most indicative of recieving appendicitis and we don't hold everyone down and cut them out willy nilly. I hope you're not suggesting treating a condition surgically...when that condition hasn't even developed yet and probably won't develop.. Most babies won't get this condition. If this is your justification for circumcising every male out there it is a very poor one.. But like i said i talked about this in another thread. I won't talk about it any more here. Hope you understand.

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Having an appendix is most indicative of recieving appendicitis and we don't hold everyone down and cut them out willy nilly. I hope you're not suggesting treating a condition surgically...when that condition hasn't even developed yet and probably won't develop.. Most babies won't get this condition. If this is your justification for circumcising every male out there it is a very poor one.. But like i said i talked about this in another thread. I won't talk about it any more here. Hope you understand.

There is some validity to what you say. In the US it is practically assumed that male babies are to be circumcised. My father was not circumcized but I and my three brothers were, my father was born into a German Catholic family my mother was not. My two sons were circumcized but each time it happened before I had time to even think about it, but my wife would have demanded it. I don't know what I think about it, but I guess the only difference would have a little extra effort on hygiene down there.

I think you might of missed the bits where i kept saying medically unnecessary. Almost every doctor would agree doing such a thing is reasonable and necessary, to withhold such a treatment would be negligent. The same can't be said about male circumcision for no other reason than centuries old tradition. (Before you say, oh wait there are studies that prove x! I study science at one of the top universities in my country so i know how to read a scientific article...and i have read them. The evidence is far from conclusive to justify something like this, especially with the whole ethical dilemma of informed consent. I talked about this extensively elsewhere and i don't wish to derail the thread, if you want im sure you can find it through search).

Well for one kids wouldn't even understand what these words mean so...its not really an issue is it?

Secondly, they've got to learn about their body sooner or later. No use keeping it in the dark. The human body isn't dirty it is what it is.

I also doubt there are many kids replying in this thread...feel free to prove me wrong.

Yes, i know. I found this in my own private research. The quran also says Allah made you body just as he intended, he made it just as he wanted. If he wanted circumcision or any similar surgery (getting a tattoo, getting horns implated...hey..whatever floats your boat) he would of made us with such things, for he is all powerful. It would be an offense to God to modify the very body he said he created exactly to his specifications in such a way that is very difficult to reverse (i only said this because people will start mentioning haircuts and other silly responses). If the quran says we should not do these things but it is said in the hadiths, which are not 100% perfect, i think in my own personal analysis that it is not justifiable using the theology and people are just finding ways to hang onto a pre-7th century Arabian tradition or worse justify what they do to girls.

I'd like to point out, if there is any mistakes, even though it says agnostic on the side...i'm not a imam or an ayotollah or anything of that nature and i'm not handing out fatwas. Just so its crystal clear. (someone once accused me into misleading people i could give out fatwas or something...no idea how). It's just my opinion i'm entitled to express just like you are. Surely if you extend the privilege to yourself it would be absurd and down right mean not to extend it to me.

I don't think its right to go around banning or censoring people either. You might be able to cover everyones eyes on this forum, a little slice of the internet. Theres the entire rest of the internet; Not to mention the real, outside world where you can't just cover the eyes of the people you think should not be furnished with opinions of certain groups. That is unless everyone wishes to cloister themselves off entirely from the outside world but we can all theorize how well that would work out..

Inshallah has proven himself to be the most reasonable admin here.

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Hi All,

Does anyone of you know someone who comes from a traditional community who practices FGM?

What do you think they think about legalizing medicalization of FGM ?

I would love to hear your thoughts.

You can contact me at cv_dlgza@hotmail.com

Best Regards!

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