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MysticKnight

The Quran Challenge "bring A Surah Like It"

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Yes you do.

Get a pen.

Write down belief 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... n, in a book. Close the book. Think of a name. Write it on the cover.

That's your religion. You can probably start off by printing out all your threads/posts in here.

Just because you haven't given it a title yet, it doesn't mean you don't have a religion.

depending on your use of the word, its fair to say that he may not have one.

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Surah Kafiroon which does not make sense to you is a Warning from Allah (swt) to the KAFIRS - Do not worship who ye worship (IDOLS) so .... what's difficult about understanding the meaning ?? all you need to do is READ before Posting !

SO if you think you can bring a verse better than what has been written, then take up the challenge.

Till then .......

Edited by xstatik2

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Surah Kafiroon which does not make sense to you is a Warning from Allah (swt) to the KAFIRS - Do not worship who ye worship (IDOLS) so .... what's difficult about understanding the meaning ?? all you need to do is READ before Posting !

SO if you think you can bring a verse better than what has been written, then take up the challenge.

Till then .......

First is that not all disbelievers can be addressed in that, it was specific disbelievers. The nature of it being a Surah in Quran, gives the impression it's talking to all disbelievers, by that addressement, or at least all disbelievers of that time.

You basically have to read the next lines and think about how absurd that meaning is, to read it properly. This already makes it non-eloquent. A speech that has a first impression naturally by custom of the language...has to be analyzed to be absurd by logic, and most people never do that.

You like I'm sure 99% of people, had the impression that it was addressing not just a few of the disbelievers of that time, a particular group of people, that would never worship God.

So it being addressed to such few people, and to be a Surah for all humanity, is itself showing it lacks greatness.

The next thing is the problem with the fact you told them they will never worship what you worship. Basically it stops them from ever believing in Islam if they are rational, because if they believe in Islam, they would be showing to be false, because it would be a false prophecy. This forces them not to believe.

The point of this Surah seems rather really pointless. A group of people were told they will never Worship God.

Also, what does it mean they don't Worship what he Worships? Does it mean the exact same concept of God Mohammad has, or does it mean Worshipping the Creator? Because they Worship the Creator, at most you can say they don't have the same concept of the Creator as Mohammad but they are Worshipping the Creator too.

At most it feels there is nothing eloquent about telling people they don't worship what you worship and he doesn't worship what they worship... and there is nothing eloquent about revealing people's fate, that they won't ever worship God. There is nothing eloquent about telling a person, you have your religion and I have mine. Ofcourse that is obvious. What is the point of telling them they have their religion and he has his religion? What is the point of it?

There is nothing enlightening about the Surah. No wisdom being revealed. No worthwhile knowledge. And nothing of a reminder to benefit constantly reading this fact.

When you say a statement, like "my religion is not the same as your religion" to a Hindu, it's a meaningless pointless statement. If you don't worship idols, it's pointless to tell others I don't worship what you worship, when this position is already clear.

There is no purpose behind such words. There is nothing eloquent of telling people this given facts.

It is such absurd pointless speech let alone to take space of a revelation attributed to God.

I've explained why I find it as a joke. I know if it was not in Quran and someone wrote this, people will laugh it so much and would be able to bring the points I bring...

"why tell people I don't worship what you worship" when it's so obvious and it's a given?

Worse is for us readers, we are being shown God telling a certain few people that Mohammad doesn't worship what they worship. Is is such pointless speech.

There is absolutely nothing eloquent about it, and everything absurd about it. This is specially when you reach the conclusion it was absurd that it referred to all disbelievers of that time or all disbelievers in general.

Now this how bad it is, but this is not the worse part about it. The worse part about it, is that it's giving the claim this Surah is beyond the capabilities of a human. That is an absolute insult to our intelligence. But we believe because we are bias.

No matter how bad the writting is, we are going to think "it must be great because God is saying it". That feeling of Quran being great is because you believe God is saying it.

The worse part of it, is that's creating a petty idea of God. Basically non-eloquent rambling is attributed to God. This makes our concept of God bad because of the style we attribute to him.

There is also the problem that God is not giving a chance for this people of salvation anymore...basically taking any chance of salvation they have.

In fact there is so much of Quran that you can see how bad it is if you really thought about it.

Edited by MysticKnight

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I also want to mention the point, that because God is saying "say:", it doesn't make sense that it refers to specific people. Because God is telling Mohammad say:... which is not Mohammad addressing a group... basically if there we specific disbelievers hearing this Surah, it is saying Mohammad is being told to say this. It's not addessing the specific people as "O you whom disbelieve", it's telling Mohammad to "Say: O you whom disbelieve". If you think about the matter, you will know it can't even be deduced that it is towards a specific group of disbelievers, they say actually makes only possible for disbelievers in general.

And if that is true, it's basically telling everyone whom is a disbeliever at least of that time they will never Worship God, which is absurd and contradicted by other verses and history.

Edited by MysticKnight

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

I do not want to engage in whether the Qur'an is a miracle or whether it can be surpassed. As someone who has been charmed by the Qur'an, I can't help myself when I say that I love the book in its simplicity and complexity, its poetry and prose, its unity and diversity, its solidity and fluidity, its divinity and humanity, its law and spirit, its promises and prayers.

However, like all literature, I find it difficult to reduce these emotional and aesthetic colours into rigorous, abstract, mathematical formulae. Therefore, this is something I cannot address at the moment.

I just wish to somehow show how Surah Al-Kaafiroon has seduced me. At least a little glance, if not the full picture. Since the Surah appeals to me, I don't sympathise with Mysticknight's doubts about the Surah - for me, these doubts are nothing more than doubts, devoid of substance - they never crystallise into anything more concrete.

Surah Al-Kaafiroon

A Meccan Surah.

Imagine, a people - who used to be their brothers - and have now become their foes. They are scorned. They are despised. They are abhorred. They treat them as criminals or worse.

"They must be flogged!"

"They must be stoned!"

"Kill their leader, Muhammad!"

"He leads a revolt - he supports the slave against the master, the poor against the rich, the woman against the man!"

"He disrupts our ancient social hierarchy! He dethrones our gods!"

"He demands loyalty to One Absolute - the Origin of the worlds - Allah, whose Names permeates Reality."

"Blasphemy!"

"Kill them. Hate them. Throw them out!"

"Starve them in the desert. Be cruel to them. Terrorise them!"

"Kill Sumayyah! Tear her apart in front of her son!"

"Murder Yaasir! The wretched man who dares call on this One God of Mercy - as opposed to the many gods of chaos - to this One God of One Mankind - as opposed to the many gods of black men and white men, males and females, masters and slaves, this tribe and that tribe."

"Whip Ammar until he forsakes his newly found belief!"

"Flog Bilal! Make him bleed! Place a rock on his chest - take his breath away!"

"He still says: One God! Only One God!"

"The slave says we are all equal before this One God!"

"We adhere to rules of our ancestors, spiritual values emanating from our deities!"

"We reject the God who loves all, and who sees with an unprejudiced eye, and who obliges us to be morally good and will judge us for our actions."

In the face of immense and relentless discrimination and cruelty, where hopes are lost, lives are jeopardised, fear is rife and things only get worse, Allah reveals a Speech - and commands His prophet to recite it - a Speech expressing Allah's full Mercy, Love, Confidence, Dignity, Self-respect, Omniscience, and Eloquence:

قُلۡ يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلۡڪَـٰفِرُونَ

Say: O ye who conceal (the truth)

لَآ أَعۡبُدُ مَا تَعۡبُدُونَ

I worship not that which ye worship. (2)

وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ

Nor will you worship that which I worship. (3)

وَلَآ أَنَا۟ عَابِدٌ۬ مَّا عَبَدتُّمۡ

And I will never worship that which you worship. (4)

وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ

Nor will you worship that which I worship. (5)

لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِىَ دِينِ

For you your religion and for me mine. (6)

This love for freedom, and determination in front of fire, expressed in such succinct and rhythmic language - language which has had an unmatched influence in Arabic literature and the Muslim world - has charmed millions since it was first recited. Its disciplined and almost-military style of diction inspires strength and power in believers and despair and hate in those who reject; its rhythmic style allows for easy memorisation and sharper tone; its repetition doubles its impact. The first Ayah sets the tone to the Surah: this is a battleground of ideas, where the persecuted faithful come face to face with their cruel and barbaric enemies. The last Ayah concludes in climactic majesty: Faith wins - not because of the sword, or whips, or assassinations - but rather, the dignified road to victory: by Freedom of Faith - being confident that Truth will triumph, whether the armies of falsehood stand idle or persecute or take up arms, Truth will respond in kind, and triumph in the end. The declaration of the followers of Truth to those who prefer to fight it is clear and simple: We won't surrender. You won't surrender. We won't surrender. You won't surrender. So keep away, and we will keep away.

In Medina, when the unfaithful decided to steal the Muslim property in Mecca, Allah - who is Truth - called upon His followers to take back their property, and should the unfaithful fall back on arms, to fight them until they surrender or flee or die on the battlefield.

----------------

I presume we can render the Surah to mean the following:

Followers of Falsehood! We serve Truth! We will never serve Falsehood! And you will never serve Truth! You serve Falsehood and let us serve Truth!

Exegesis: Truth will win in the end - whether you serve it or not - so let it win without bloodshed.

It's a beautiful and powerful mantra for the followers of Allah - who is the Absolute Reality - to recite and repeat in the face of adversity. In my eyes, its psychological effect, its philosophical depth, its literary eloquence and its eschatological implications are worthy of respect.

(wasalam)

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So Jebreil, followers of falsehood will never follow the truth? People can't leave falsehood, people can't leave disbelief. Did all those whom disbelieve never Worship God? Didn't people come into Islam?

Your basically saying all sorts of things that Surah doesn't say and no where implies. This is your mind making all sorts of things as if it says but doesn't say it, and doesn't even give the impression of it.

You have your religion and I have mine. Doesn't imply all that stuff you said.

I don't want to go through it,

Btw

Say: O followers of falsehood,

We don't follow what you follow,

Nor do you follow what we follow.

Nor will we follow what you follow

Nor will you follow what we follow

To you is your way and to us is our way

Basically that is a Surah like it.

It's also pointless rambling. When it's obvious you don't follow what they follow, there is no point of saying it.

"Nor will you follow what we follow" is basically saying anyone in falsehood could never follow the truth

It has the same absurdness, pointless, and wrongness, but it's a Surah just like Suratal Kaffiroon

We can also ignore the absurdness of all followers of falsehood never following the truth, by saying this was addressed to a particular people that would not follow the truth.

It's similar.

There now two Surahs are like Quran.

Also, if the "we" is too different

here is an alternate:

Say: O followers of falsehood,

I don't follow what you follow,

Nor do you follow what I follow.

Nor will I follow what you follow

Nor will you follow what I follow

To you is your way and to me is my way

Edited by MysticKnight

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

You've strayed a long way from the Mysticknight who saw Oceans of Irfan in every verse of the Qur'an. I'm sorry. It's been a little while since I have been on SC. I thought I was still addressing the same personality.

Judging by some of your other recent posts which I have just read, I understand how you do not see the implications I do.

As for words saying or implying something, I suggest reading commentaries on absolutely any work of literary art. They are always full of various implications, mostly connecting what appears to be isolated facts into a complete picture. That is because commentary-writers try and place the work in its time-period, in context of other work by the same author, and try to discover the underlying text - or the intended meaning compressed into a few words.

But there is no absurdity to the Surah -

repetition does not make something absurd.

stating the obvious does not necessarily make something absurd. (I believe I have explained why below)

When the Muslims are being persecuted to renounce their faith and to return to the pagan ways, the Muslims are commanded to stand firm:

"O ye who conceal truth!

I do not serve what ye serve.

Nor will you serve what I serve.

And I will never serve what you serve.

And nor will you serve what I serve

To you your religion and to me mine!"

They are not imparting this message to anyone who doubts - they are addressing this to those who have reached the truth but covered it (from the root word "kafara"). These people who have a prejudice against the truth are clearly averse to faith in it. Such people will never come to serve truth.

Also, by stating the obvious that "we don't follow your ways and you don't follow our ways" can be very eloquent. It emphasises the obvious and secretly implies the not-so-obvious. Like the chauvinist who says to his wife: Listen to me! I'm a man and you're a woman! There is more going beneath those obvious statements.

Also, in many great speeches, it is often a tactic to draw the lines between friends and others. It is a declaration which strengthens the former and isolates or threatens the latter.

With regard to the final Ayah, it is not a mere statement of "my religion is mine and yours is yours", but a call of Truce: live and let live; to you yours and to me mine. We don't mean you any harm. Let us be.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Honestly, the way you're talking, your Arabic isn't really good enough to appreciate the Quran in its original Arabic MysticKnight.

Try imitating the Arabic that you see in jahili poetry (which is pretty impressive compared to the stuff we have now-a-days) before you can even begin to criticize the Quran.

When we say that a person has to know Arabic in regards to the Quran, it's not the simple base stuff one picks up in college like قل=say, هو=He, أحد=One, etc

You have to dive inside and out of the language to fully appreciate it. Just go into the sciences of ma'ani for the meanings of the word يمنى (from 75:37) and then do sujud out of sheer awe from what Allah(swt) said in that verse.

In terms of language, you'll never see such precision and perfection in any other book

It's like it in English. There is nothing in the challenge that said it can't be in another language and appear similar

Your arrogance and ignorance is astounding.

Ask even a Christian Arabic poet and tell him to compare the Arabic you see here to the translation and to every translation of these verses:

The sentence "Bob gave Joe a book" can only be written one or two ways in English using these exact words. In Arabic, it can be written over 10 different ways with each way giving a slightly different inference and emphasis.

Edited by ImamAliLover

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The the word kaffer doesn't mean those whom cover it. When Quran says "those whom disbelieve in the Taghut", does it mean those whom conceal the truth of the Taghut? OR does it simply mean those whom disbelieve in the Taghut? The word means disbelieve. Also didn't Quran say he will forgive the kaffers if they stop their opposition? So what makes you say it's impossible once you conceal the truth to believe in it?

2ndly, if there was proof of Mohammad Prophethood and it was obvious, then all those whom disbelieved in it, where covering the truth any ways. And if they didn't know truth of Mohammad, at least they know it was wrong to worship idols and were covering that.

Saying obvious things like

"I don't Worship what you worship" is not eloquent when it's obvious. It's obvious fact that Mohammad doesn;t worship idols. What is the purpose of saying it.

The two statements "I will not Worship what you Worship and you won't Worship what I worship" you can talk about implying something, but what is the point of stating Mohammad doesn't Worship what they Worship? It is an obvious fact. It's not telling them anything. It doesn't show anything.

Another thing this shows nothing of believers being patient and resistence. It didn't "We will not Worship what you Worship". It's not showing anything of believers.

You basically making all these statments that are not implied in it.

You can no way deduce that this show believers to have a rezilient attitude.

Saying "to me is your religion and to me is mine" doesn't imply let us live in peace but even if it did, it's not a saving grace... the fact we have a religion and others have another religion itself doesn't imply we should live in peace and let each other live in peace.. it would be a weak argument. There is nothing to suggest that is implied by that statement anways.

Your making out of it what you want and seeing all this unimplied things. Your also blinding yourself to the obvious non-eloquence of stating the obvious.

Edited by MysticKnight

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-F-R

Learn Arabic! Even from Wikipedia if need be.

If you think the prophet and countless Muslims since then believe that this Surah is just presenting the fact that the Prophet believes in what he believes and the pagans believe in what they believe and that's all the Ayah is saying, you are underestimating and mocking the human intellect.

Learn linguistics! Words are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to underlying meaning. Almost always, stating the obvious hints at underlying intent.

Believe in Hubal! Al-lat! Believe in our pagan lifestyle! Drink! Gamble! Shed blood! Murder your first-born daughters! Serve what we serve! Follow what we follow!

Or we will persecute you and flog you and stone you and kill you!

Kafiroon!

I do not serve what you serve!

And you will not serve what I serve!

And I will not serve what you serve!

And you will not serve what I serve!

To you your religion and to me mine!

In such a context, the Prophet rejects their pleas and threats completely - and breaks off with them.

If (and that's a big 'if') you still don't see the truth in this, Mysticknight, then I demonstrate what it means as a means of ending my discussion with you -

"Mysticknight - there is no benefit in this discussion any more - I don't accept in what you claim and you will not accept in what I claim. I will not accept in what you claim and you will not accept in my claim - to you your way and to me mine!"

What's the intention behind the words? Am I just presenting facts - or am I trying to make a point?

The same goes for the Surah.

Edited by Jebreil

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When Quran says "those whom disbelieve in the Taghut", does it mean those whom conceal the truth of the Taghut? OR does it simply mean those whom disbelieve in the Taghut?

Dunno how the heck you were going to try to invent a sura when you barely know Arabic.

Do you even know what Taghut means? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taghut

[4:51] Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in idols and false deities (Taghut) and say of those who disbelieve: These are better guided in the path than those who believe.

'Disbelievers' in the Taghut are the Believers. Shaytan was a Taghut. And Shaytan (though believes in the Shahad) is consider in the Qur'an as a kafir, because He didn't obey Allah (swt) to bow to Adam (wa kaana minal kaafireen). So kafara (disbelieved) encompasses the disobeying of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Don't you thing you've made enough of a fool of your self? Your heart is black and hard, and it makes you angry and hateful, and the cycle continues and gets worse as time passes, till the day your body withers and you stand before your Lord. You better hope that you did not transgress His edicts, for you are powerless.

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Dunno how the heck you were going to try to invent a sura when you barely know Arabic.

Do you even know what Taghut means? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taghut

[4:51] Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in idols and false deities (Taghut) and say of those who disbelieve: These are better guided in the path than those who believe.

The point was kaffer actually means disbelievers. It doesn't make sense to translate it as "conceal the Taghut". The word is used to denote disbelieve.

So when Quran says "those whom disbelieve in the Taghut", it means those whom reject the Taghut.

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lol i just realized the following

at my local mosque which offers hawza courses, the students have been studying arabic for like 5 years and they still arent finished

after basic grammar you have to learn sarf nahw and balagha, where you study so many books etc

and yet a person who probably hasnt even studied arabic for 1 year (he is saying he knows how it "sounds" but he probably doesnt even understand arabic) has suddenly received divine inspirations proving to him how ineloquent the quran is ...

he is criticizing quranic translations as well which in my opinion arent 1 100th as eloquent as the quran

if someone decides to read a random verse from the quran in a gathering then anybody will quickly recognize it as the quran because of its literary uniqueness

mystic ok youve disproved islam and you are on the true path . instead of wasting our time on sc go open your own forum and name it mystic-chat or something cuz your divinely inspired posts are getting too overwhelming for us

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

It's very eloquent:

To you your religion and to me mine.

1. The fact is: you have your religion and I have mine

2. If you don't come to terms with my viewpoint, then live and let live. To you yours and to me mine. Don't pester me! (Let's agree to disagree - another eloquent expression of similar meaning)

3. Have your faith and I'll have mine and we'll see which is true in the end.

4. We have reached a parting of the ways: to you your way and to me mine.

I can hear all these 4 readings, each with its own subtle nuances, in this sentence - especially when it is read in the context of a prophet speaking to his people who reject him.

The point is: We are not rejecting truth like you - and we won't ever reject it. You won't come and embrace truth either. So we have reached a parting of the ways - you go your way. We will go ours! Goodbye!

Mysticknight: to you your religion (whatever it evolves to be) and to me mine. And I include all 4 readings in my concluding statement to you.

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Mystic you do realize a person can write volumes on just Surah Kafiroon. Even an ignorant person like me can write a 10 page essay on just translation of surah kafiroon. Just going by translation of first ayat:

"I do not serve what you serve!" it clearly creates a boundary and shows who believers are. The ayat complements other ayats of Quran following the same theme. Now taking in perspective, what are the things that kafiroon believe in, as the ayat highlights the traits of disbelievers. Its can be summarised perfectly under the banner of Tawheed, which again is the central theme of Islam. Every ayat of Quran takes you back to tawheed. There is so much knowledge and wisdom in just that one ayat, but you wont see it.

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To you your religion and to me mine.

1. The fact is: you have your religion and I have mine

2. If you don't come to terms with my viewpoint, then live and let live. To you yours and to me mine. Don't pester me! (Let's agree to disagree - another eloquent expression of similar meaning)

3. Have your faith and I'll have mine and we'll see which is true in the end.

4. We have reached a parting of the ways: to you your way and to me mine.

You can really deduce only one from it.

Deducing "don't pester me" doesn't even make sense, and he was preaching a message, so he didn't leave people to their own did he?

4 is obvious by the fact they were stated that they won;t worship God... but it's not really something you deduce from it.

It's really emphasis on the point that they are of different paths. This is really what it is.

But to emphasize on it, is really meaningless. We do it sometimes, but it's not an eloquent thing to do.

To emphasize a person "You have your opinion and I have mine" is basically showing nothing but is a form of stating that we obviously disagree and it's usually after a form of argument. Basically it's the person giving up. People do it and it occurs in language but to say it after you already stated "We won't agree" is not eloquent, it's just going on about the same point.

It's already emphasize they are of different paths...and to emphasize it is not something that is meaningful for God to do. It's obvious Mohammad doesn't Worship idols...to tell a people I don't worship what you worship when you been preaching Oneness of God is just to emphasize we are of different opinion. It feels like frustration of disbelievers not believing.

The problem is also disbelievers ended up believing. I always use to want to believe disbelievers means coverers of truth and I know the "farmer" thing, "covering tilth" but really if you look at the word, it doesn't make sense to say "those whom conceal the Taghut" for example...it really means "those whom disbelieve in the Taghut"... If you just think of how complicated there is to covering the truth, what does it even mean to do that...it doesn't make sense to assume the word kaffer means it when is used with subjects. All translators have also translated as disbelievers for a reason. And as I said, if you take account that there is suppose to be proof of Prophethood and there is obvious truth of Oneness of God, then the pagans hearing the message were that.

The problem is they came into Islam. They ended up Worshiping God.

At most when I see someone "To you is your opinion and to me is mine", it feels like nothing but frustration, stating an obvious fact, and something humans do but is a quite meaningless statement in itself. I don't expect God to say such a meaningless statement, even thought obviously when people say such things it's to emphasize I don't agree with you but is not a real eloquent way of going about it. Basically stating an obvious fact to imply this is something I find non-eloquent in human speech.

People use let's agree to disagree, as frustrating when they can't convince the other of their views... but is something for me not eloquent to say and shouldn't be said. If God were to say that, I would feel this is not God's words, because it's a flaw of humans in speech he is using. Basically it's an expression of frustrating in an argument. No one says in begining of an argument "You have your opinion and I have mine" or "let's agree to disagree"

Basically not every expression in language is an eloquent thing to say.

For God to teach Mohammad to express what sounds like frustrated speech of giving up on others doesn't sound eloquent to me at all and this nothing but that. Stating Mohammad doesn't Worship what they worship when it will be followed by the statement 'and I will not Worship what you Worship" seems pointless. Stating the obvious "I don't Worship what you worship" is obvious. It sounds like a way of frustration speech people to be honest, really stating a meaningless thing that is obvious to emphasize that they disagree and are not the same path.

The last emphasis that they are of different religions doesn't seem eloquent to me, specially since the same point was already emphasized. The repeating of it just emphasise more on a frustration type expression that I don't follow what you follow. This is really what such speech is. It's not eloquent and a flaw in humans when they engage in it.

And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss. 35:39

Do you know I remember while back we have a discussion of love and hate of God, and certain member said "has God ever said he hated anyone in Quran", basically stating that God doesn't love disbelievers, would not mean hating them. And we were finding it hard that God doesn't love people let alone hates them.

Basically anyone whom disbelieves in Islam, God hates them, is not something to really brag about.

It also would mean my implication that you should hate disbelievers. And that means you should hate me.

So it's teaching hate, instead of love.

You should love humans even if they reject truths or your religion. One verse gives the impression that love was not forbidden on all disbelievers, just those whom fought the believers, but if God hates disbelievers, it really means you should.

You shouldn't love a person when God hates a person.

Basically by this verse, my family should hate me as well and all those whom disbelieve in Islam.

This sadly a religion of hate and it worships hate, because God has the Ultimate level of that Islamic virtue.

People can say they Worship Love, because they believe God is love.

I don't have hate towards Muslims, I honestly don't.

One of the hardest thing to me to accept was God hating people in Quran and having no mercy on the astray souls. It was always a hard concept.

But ultimately now I believe God loves all, doesn't hate people, just hates evil deeds, but is forbearing towards it to the extent he will not torment souls for their evils and certainly not with immense torment described in Islam.

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<div>

But ultimately now I believe God loves all, doesn't hate people, just hates evil deeds, but is forbearing towards it to the extent he will not torment souls for their evils and certainly not with immense torment described in Islam.
<br />

<br />

Yes after all the creations of Universe for us, all the blessing he bestowed toward us, after made you inheritors in the earth ,all the angels sujuud towards Human and yet Human reject His existence and arrogantly speak ill of his Lord. But He opened a door to Thy pardon and named it 'repentance', giving those Hope for people who Disbelieves and Believes to repent of their evil deeds. But of course there are people who have totally been lost.<br />

<br />

What i understand from verse is that in the state of disbelief the more he/she will increase Hatred toward God. These Hate actions toward God is called evil deeds, so the more they increase their evil deeds the more God increase hatred toward their actions.<br />

Thus He created stages in Human Soul and Heart. Disbeliever have stages in their heart and the lowest one is the Closed Heart where God says about it:

[Shakir 2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

[Shakir 2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

<br />

<div>

It also would mean my implication that you should hate disbelievers. And that means you should hate me.
</div>

No it would not implicate that.</div>

Edited by Zufa

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at my local mosque which offers hawza courses, the students have been studying arabic for like 5 years and they still arent finished

This is very true. Arabic is a very deep language and even Arabs who are born speaking Arabic still have to spend years studying the language to get a good handle of the Classical language.

There's examples of Arab Companions of the Prophet(pbuh), who knew Fusha, emphasizing to other Arab Companions of the Prophet(pbuh) who knew Fusha the need to learn Arabic.

SubhanAllah how about us now-a-days?

The Quran is on a completely different level from even the Classical language and it's depths and subtlies (not sure how to spell this one) aren't appreciated really much at all in this age of ours.

For example, for the word "husband", in the Quran, we sometimes see the phrase "زوج" and sometimes we see the phrase "بعل". Translated, into English, they both generally mean "husband/partner/spouse" (generally!). But when we go deeper into the words, we see that these two words (while having the same English translation) hold starkly different connotations. "بعل" implies more mastery than "زوج" (there's a lot more depth but i don't want to go into so much detail so late at night) and when we see these phrases in the Quran, we see that Allah(swt) uses the correct word with the correct meaning and the correct emphasis every single time.

Had there been even one instead where, "بعل" should have been used instead of "زوج" (for the ayah to make sense in its general context), then that would have been a proof that the Quran was falsified. But we see the most perfect usage and most perfect meaning of each word in the Quran. This is why the early Arabs didn't attack the eloquence of the Quran; rather they attacked the Messenger (pbuh).

Even common things like knowing when to use تاب or غفر, the Quran uses the most suitable word for each instance that we see these words.

Or in the Quran, we see Allah(swt) using مطر and ماء and غيث to basically mean "rain", yet each one of these has a very specific meaning and we see the Quran using the most appropriate one for each respective situation every single time.

Brother Macisaac gave use a good and brief explanation between ghayth and matar here:

غيث means rain that rains from drought, and is beneficial in its time. (makes sense since غَاثَ means to succor, to aid, to help)

مطر means rain that can be beneficial or harmful in its time and other than its time.

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2254103

^Actually, that post should be sufficient enough to show:

1) The difference in depth between Arabic and English (and thus why translations are nothing compared to the real thing)

2) The specific meaning that each word has

There have been books written on this subject alone. And the Quran using the right word every single time is only one part of the miracle of its eloquence. There are dozens of other sciences where the Quran shows it's miraculous nature time and time again.

And hopefully this can be an inspiration to some of the brothers to take learning Arabic seriously so they can get the knowledge themselves without having to rely on Shaykh so and so and so that they can really appreciate the beauty of the Quran

But alhamdulillah, the Quran has something in there for everyone. Even if we don't appreciate it's eloquence, we can at least appreciate it's Message

Edited by ImamAliLover

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Actually, for an example of my above post, simply open up Sahih al-Bukhari in Arabic and see how the Arabs at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) employed language and see how sometimes there's several hadiths of the same narrator narrating the same exact event but they sometimes use slightly different words.

Like they're use different words for "well" (ie the thing you get water from) or the word they use for "dig" varies in different hadiths and the meanings of these differences indicate various types of digging. Now since they're talking about the same exact event, this indicates some slight imprecision on part of the narrator(s) (was the well a deeeep, natural well? was it a regular man-made one? etc etc).

Obviously this has almost no effect on the meaning of the hadith because it doesn't really change the meaning that much. But it shows that they were human and that there was slight imprecision in these slight details. We don't find this imprecision at all in the Quran subhanAllah

Edited by ImamAliLover

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

Mysticknight, I have deduced this from your discussions: you don't know what you're talking about and the rest of us do. You don't know what eloquence is, I bet you couldn't pick a Shakespeare from any Tom, Richard and Harry, and I'm sure you have no idea of the boundless possibilities of language - language is not confined to Subject-Predicate analysis and deduction.

Have a look at this - again, maybe Wikipedia can come to the aid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloquence

"To be or not to be" - this is an entire university course in of itself of philosophy, psychology, anthropology, literature and English. Volumes can be written on this short text, none of it directly deduced from it - for first of all, "to be or not to be" is not even a logical statement! it's a question.

Anyway, it's a sign of wisdom to leave a fruitless cause - so believe what you will and we will do the same.

Your arguments have always been weak - when you were supporting Irfan, or when you were against Intercession, or when you were defining what Allah meant by "god", or now. So many changes of view should make you a little more realistic as to the value of your current understanding of things.

Goodbye!

Edited by Jebreil

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This is very true. Arabic is a very deep language and even Arabs who are born speaking Arabic still have to spend years studying the language to get a good handle of the Classical language.

There's examples of Arab Companions of the Prophet(pbuh), who knew Fusha, emphasizing to other Arab Companions of the Prophet(pbuh) who knew Fusha the need to learn Arabic.

SubhanAllah how about us now-a-days?

The Quran is on a completely different level from even the Classical language and it's depths and subtlies (not sure how to spell this one) aren't appreciated really much at all in this age of ours.

For example, for the word "husband", in the Quran, we sometimes see the phrase "زوج" and sometimes we see the phrase "بعل". Translated, into English, they both generally mean "husband/partner/spouse" (generally!). But when we go deeper into the words, we see that these two words (while having the same English translation) hold starkly different connotations. "بعل" implies more mastery than "زوج" (there's a lot more depth but i don't want to go into so much detail so late at night) and when we see these phrases in the Quran, we see that Allah(swt) uses the correct word with the correct meaning and the correct emphasis every single time.

Had there been even one instead where, "بعل" should have been used instead of "زوج" (for the ayah to make sense in its general context), then that would have been a proof that the Quran was falsified. But we see the most perfect usage and most perfect meaning of each word in the Quran. This is why the early Arabs didn't attack the eloquence of the Quran; rather they attacked the Messenger (pbuh).

Even common things like knowing when to use تاب or غفر, the Quran uses the most suitable word for each instance that we see these words.

Or in the Quran, we see Allah(swt) using مطر and ماء and غيث to basically mean "rain", yet each one of these has a very specific meaning and we see the Quran using the most appropriate one for each respective situation every single time.

Brother Macisaac gave use a good and brief explanation between ghayth and matar here:

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2254103

^Actually, that post should be sufficient enough to show:

1) The difference in depth between Arabic and English (and thus why translations are nothing compared to the real thing)

2) The specific meaning that each word has

There have been books written on this subject alone. And the Quran using the right word every single time is only one part of the miracle of its eloquence. There are dozens of other sciences where the Quran shows it's miraculous nature time and time again.

And hopefully this can be an inspiration to some of the brothers to take learning Arabic seriously so they can get the knowledge themselves without having to rely on Shaykh so and so and so that they can really appreciate the beauty of the Quran

But alhamdulillah, the Quran has something in there for everyone. Even if we don't appreciate it's eloquence, we can at least appreciate it's Message

(salam)

Jazakallah for this post ! I think i am going to take my arabic studies more seriously after reading this lol

(bismillah)

Mysticknight, I have deduced this from your discussions: you don't know what you're talking about and the rest of us do. You don't know what eloquence is, I bet you couldn't pick a Shakespeare from any Tom, Richard and Harry, and I'm sure you have no idea of the boundless possibilities of language - language is not confined to Subject-Predicate analysis and deduction.

Have a look at this - again, maybe Wikipedia can come to the aid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloquence

"To be or not to be" - this is an entire university course in of itself of philosophy, psychology, anthropology, literature and English. Volumes can be written on this short text, none of it directly deduced from it - for first of all, "to be or not to be" is not even a logical statement! it's a question.

Anyway, it's a sign of wisdom to leave a fruitless cause - so believe what you will and we will do the same.

Your arguments have always been weak - when you were supporting Irfan, or when you were against Intercession, or when you were defining what Allah meant by "god", or now. So many changes of view should make you a little more realistic as to the value of your current understanding of things.

Goodbye!

(salam)

It seems that mystic isnt even interested in resolving these problems and no matter what he wont change his thoughts ...here is an example:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234993206-28-issues-with-quran/

it seems like this is the first thread where he his doubts grew gradually

and yet you notice at post 21 a member replies to some of his "contradictions" and mystic doesnt have any answer ... the member also says that if mystic wants they can continue but no answer.....and yet at the end of his thread, although many of the problems have been resolved, someone asks him "only 28?" and mystic proudly answers "theres more"

what does this imply? that this is a waste of time

Edited by 14infallibles

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We don't find this imprecision at all in the Quran subhanAllah

I'm not sure exactly what you mean but I know per Shia interpretation of Quran, there could have been a better word to convey the meaning Shias believe in, like in 33:33 it could have been "Qeenaa" which would denote "keep away" while "yuthhab" through out Quran denotes remove from, and at the very least has that meaning possible.

Also the word Al-Qurba in verse 42:23 , the word could have been Thal-Qurba or "Ahli" "Ahlebayty"...to make it clear...

Instead we have interpretation that it can mean your own kin, kinship, closeness to God, and you have to really use such complicated thought to know which one can be true or not, and even then all of them can really be contradicting the Quran and really making a whole different thing out of what it says...as what I believed occurred with me with the wage verses think I knew the secret proof to Shiism in the Quran.

I think when you approach to a bias, you will never see any flaws...I don't know grammar well enough to see if Quran has grammar mistakes or not, but I certainy won't take the words of others it doesn't because I found logical errors through out, that didn't occur to all those scholars saying there is no logical errors in Quran.

I really don't take people word for these type things anymore, I use too.

I would learn to be skeptical...all stuff about Quran this and that, may not be true.

Edited by MysticKnight

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

Just to inform again - not argue.

The Qur'an has grammatical errors - partly because Arabic Grammar was an enterprise undertaken by grammarians to map out a patterned logic of the language, and which took place after the revelation of the Qur'an, and partly because it was revealed in the Prophet's own dialect, and partly because of philosophical, figurative or stylistic reasons.

However, it makes no sense to perceive the Qur'an negatively because of this - one cannot be responsible for not following man-made rules laid down after the Book's composition. Also, some of the greatest poets openly manipulated language for effect. Instead of staying contained in the laws, they play with them, and make the laws themselves.

Language is natural and evolves naturally - we don't speak the proper English of the 18th century and nor did the Qur'an speak the proper Arabic of the 8th. It was a language which the Arabs understood, admired (both friends and foe), and adopted. It enriched the language beyond any other book in the Arabic tradition. It still stands as the masterpiece of Arabic speech and as the book with the greatest lasting effect and influence. Its mixture of beauty and influence can only be rivalled with other Holy Scripture. It demands respect more than Shakespeare and Plato put together, because it has changed the world more than Shakespeare and Plato put together and has produced an astounding work. It demands respect.

One may wish to argue whether it is an extraordinary human magnum opus or a divinely-breathed revelatory miracle.

But it is Great nonetheless.

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One may wish to argue whether it is an extraordinary human magnum opus or a divinely-breathed revelatory miracle.

But it is Great nonetheless.

And If I read Suratal Ahzab and find the non-link no relationship with one verse to the next spamming of verses, leaving me at the end, feeling "what was the purpose of this Surah, what was the over all theme?"...and find it really very bad, very uneloquent, very broken up, no flow, just random spam... I can't argue for it...because the Quran is assumed to be super great and so everything it does, even it's just spam of ideas with no relationship of one to the other, no flow, no theme, no deep wisdom...it's ofcourse great

I really don't find it great at all, really. It's so different then other literature, because when people talk, they have flow, there is a flow going on from one subject to another. It's not random spam.

But the random spam just leaves with confusion. You have no idea of the over all theme, the link of verses to another, the purpose of the flow is obscure because really it's random spam.

Yeah no writting resembles, but for good reason, people don't spam thoughts with no flow, no purpose....the only thing when it claims to be from God, you will just assume your finite brain cannot see the wisdom of the flow, and understand the link between verses, the over all theme, the purpose behind one verse after another...so even if you can't make any sense of it...it's great and preceived like that because of belief it's great.

really I'm not arguing it's not super great, I'm arguing is bad literature.

Edited by MysticKnight

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