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Who Were The Son-in-laws Of Imam Ali (a.s)?


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#1 Kaneez Fatima

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 09:32 AM

Asalam Alaikum,

this is one of the questions asked about shia beliefs that if Imam Ali (a.s) refused to do bay'at at Umar's hand then why had he accepted him as his son-in-law?? In my knowledge Mola Ali's (a.s) both daughters were His nephews's wives. Give me references from ahle sunnat books so that i could answer my sunni friend. thank u

#2 UIE

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 05:08 PM

That is a misconception the Ummal Khulthum that Umar Ibn Khattab married was different then the daughter of Imam Ali matter of Fact Both Zainab (SA) and Umm Al KulThum (SA) were married to the sons of Imam Ali (AS)'s brother Jafar At Tayyar.

#3 hasani

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 08:41 PM

There were other wives or wife of umar who had name umme kulsoom. what makes people think one of them was daughter of imam ali(As)?
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#4 Kaneez Fatima

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:52 AM

Yes but where can i find references? can someone guide me?

#5 hasani

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:27 PM

, watch this.

#6 aladdin

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:58 PM

Both Khulthum and Umar are very common names. It is like Tom, Richard and Harry. Even Umar Ibn Khattab, which means Umar son of Carpenter is very common too, as Umar name being common. People were named after their trade.

Someone will say to the other, did you hear Umar did so and so. The other will reply you mean Umar son of Milkman. And, the first one will say, no I mean Umar son of Carpenter, whose father shop is at blah, blah place.

Now the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat Mr. Nader Zaveri will swear it was the daughter of Imam Ali (as), married to the second caliphahaha of Islam. You have to be careful of wolves in clothes of sheep.
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#7 Maula Dha Mallang

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:11 AM

it is *impossible* that janabe umme kulthum (sa) married umar. since the umme kulthum in sunni sources who apparanetly was the daughter of ali (as) who married umar...died less than a year later during childbirth.

all accounts state that umme kulthum bint ali (as) was present at kerbala, decades later.

how does a woman whi has been dead for decades show up at kerbala?
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#8 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:32 AM

There were other wives or wife of umar who had name umme kulsoom. what makes people think one of them was daughter of imam ali(As)?

Maybe the fact that there are narrations from the Imams (as) in Shia books that speak about this marriage.

it is *impossible* that janabe umme kulthum (sa) married umar. since the umme kulthum in sunni sources who apparanetly was the daughter of ali (as) who married umar...died less than a year later during childbirth.

all accounts state that umme kulthum bint ali (as) was present at kerbala, decades later.

how does a woman whi has been dead for decades show up at kerbala?

Ok, then we should just stick to Shia sources. Why bring Sunni sources into it?

#9 SD2

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:12 AM

I hope im not intruding but I have seen an answer to this before on a youtube video, I will try to find it now and I will post it if I do.

I found it

Edited by WhySoSerious?, 30 September 2011 - 11:17 AM.


#10 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:59 AM

There is no point refuting something if you don't even address the best evidence for it. In this case, the narrations with strong chains that are found in Shia books.



From Sulaymaan bin Khaalid he said: “I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) about a woman whose husband dies, where should she do her `iddah, in the house of her husband, or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, wherever she wants”, then he (عليه السلام) said: “That `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”
Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 197
2. Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89
3. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696


From `Abd Allaah bin Sinaan and Mu`aawiyah bin `Ammaar from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): He said: I asked about the women whose husband dies, can she do her `iddah in her house or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “It is wherever she wants, that `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 2
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 199
2. Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq Kal-SaHeeH (Reliable like a SaHeeH (hadeeth))
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89



From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us”
Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42
2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696



From Al-QadaaH from Ja`far (Al-Saadiq) (عليه السلام) from his father (عليه السلام) He said: “Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام), and her son Zayd bin `Umar bin Al-KhaTTaab died at the same time. They did not know who passed away before, so they did not inherit from one another, and they prayed (the funeral prayer) upon them together”
Source:
1. Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 9, ch. 36, pg. 362, hadeeth # 15
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Majhool (Unknown)
à Milaadh Al-Akhyaar, vol. 15, pg. 382




Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”
Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42
2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696


http://www.revivinga...mm-kulthum.html

#11 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:10 PM

^^^^^ Thank you for quoting from your mentor site, the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

In each hadith it only says, Umar which is a very, very common name as previously mentioned. One of the hadith has Umar in brackets, meaning his name is not mentioned in the hadith.

Then, there is a Majhool (Unknown) hadith which you quoted in red color to highlight, which first time mentions Umar son of Carpenter.

1. Hadith is Majhool (Unknown).
2. Again, Umar son of Carpenter is very common name too.

Keep up the good work, just like your mentor the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.
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#12 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:30 PM

^^^^^ Thank you for quoting from your mentor site, the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

In each hadith it only says, Umar which is a very, very common name as previously mentioned. One of the hadith has Umar in brackets, meaning his name is not mentioned in the hadith.

Then, there is a Majhool (Unknown) hadith which you quoted in red color to highlight, which first time mentions Umar son of Carpenter.

1. Hadith is Majhool (Unknown).
2. Again, Umar son of Carpenter is very common name too.

Keep up the good work, just like your mentor the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.


From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us
Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696



Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42
2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696




Yeah, I'm sure this Umar was just some random guy that he could issue threats to Imam Ali (as). And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Umm Kulthum married a person called Umar, and Umar married a person called Umm Kulthum. Get real.


Anyway, according to the same link, Shaykh Toosi, Sayyid Murtadha, Sayyid Khoei, and Sayyid Fadlallah all say the narrations indicate such a marriage took place.

#13 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:36 PM

^^^^^ Yes, a Khabeth Wahhabi will believe that Umar can threatens Imam Ali (as):

"I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!

And, look at the threat, that he Umar will accuse Imam Ali of theft by bring two false witnesses against Imam Ali.

At the same time the Khabeth Wahhabi still believes that Umar is better than Imam Ali.

Keep up the good work, you and your mentor the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

And, you believe in your Master Imam Ali (as) that he will cave into this kind of blackmail.

Edited by aladdin, 30 September 2011 - 12:41 PM.


#14 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:42 PM

Who said anything about Umar being better than Imam Ali (as)? I think you need to take some pills for your paranoia. There are no Wahhabis posting in this thread, and neither is Nader a Wahhabi. Have some fear of Allah, and stop basically making takfir on fellow Shias.

Edited by Haider Husayn, 30 September 2011 - 12:43 PM.


#15 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:46 PM

Who said anything about Umar being better than Imam Ali (as)? I think you need to take some pills for your paranoia. There are no Wahhabis posting in this thread, and neither is Nader a Wahhabi. Have some fear of Allah, and stop basically making takfir on fellow Shias.

Same arguments, just to be argumentative as usual. Cannot come back with some kind of good rebuttal, then it is better to keep quite and keep your peace.

You think that Umar can threaten Imam Ali of theft, and your Master Imam Ali (as) will cave into this blackmail and marry his daughter to Umar?

What kind of Imam is that who gives into blackmail?

#16 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:47 PM

I think you are the one providing no arguments. All you do is call people Wahhabis. The ahadith are there for everyone to see, and I think most sensible people will realise which Umar is being spoken about.

#17 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:48 PM

Allah has given us brain and intelligence and asked us to use our brain and intelligence.

#18 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:53 PM

You can't reject historical facts or authentic ahadith based on your dislike of them. You are going to have to come up with a really good, objective, reason why these narrations should be rejected.

#19 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:59 PM

You can't reject historical facts or authentic ahadith based on your dislike of them. You are going to have to come up with a really good, objective, reason why these narrations should be rejected.

I came up with my aql. How low can you think of your Imam?

Answer the following tow questions based on your aql:

1. Do you think that Umar can threaten Imam Ali of theft, and your Master Imam Ali (as) will cave into this blackmail and marry his daughter to Umar?

2. What kind of Imam is that who gives into blackmail?

Now answer the above based on your aql and without hiding behind narrations.

#20 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:59 PM

You think that Umar can threaten Imam Ali of theft, and your Master Imam Ali (as) will cave into this blackmail and marry his daughter to Umar?

What kind of Imam is that who gives into blackmail?

Didn't Umar already threaten Imam Ali (as) when he wanted him to give bayah to Abu Bakr? Wasn't he already responsible for the death of Bibi Fatima (as) and her unborn child? Why not ask what kind of Imam would allow that to happen, or would leave those deaths unavenged?

The reason for not preventing this marriage was the same as why Imam Ali (as) didn't react to what happened after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). This was simply one more tragedy that happened to the Ahlul Bayt (as) after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). But considering it is not by any means the worst of the tragedies, I don't know why this one is so hard to accept.

Edited by Haider Husayn, 30 September 2011 - 12:59 PM.


#21 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:05 PM

Didn't Umar already threaten Imam Ali (as) when he wanted him to give bayah to Abu Bakr? Wasn't he already responsible for the death of Bibi Fatima (as) and her unborn child? Why not ask what kind of Imam would allow that to happen, or would leave those deaths unavenged?

Again you are not using your aql. The above two tragedies already happened without Imam's contribution to them. Thus, he couldn't change the history. In both the case if he subsequently takes any action, he divides the Ummah.

The reason for not preventing this marriage was the same as why Imam Ali (as) didn't react to what happened after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). This was simply one more tragedy that happened to the Ahlul Bayt (as) after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). But considering it is not by any means the worst of the tragedies, I don't know why this one is so hard to accept.

The above has not happened. It is in the future. Thus, the Imam would not give into blackmail.

Tomorrow, then Umar will blackmail him to write a new Quran, and Imam will cave into his threat.

Use aql, rather than arguments.

#22 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:11 PM

Again you are not using your aql. The above two tragedies already happened without Imam's contribution to them. Thus, he couldn't change the history. In both the case if he subsequently takes any action, he divides the Ummah.


And if Imam Ali (as) tries to prevent this marriage, then Umar would move against him, forcing a conflict that would divide the Ummah. Was it worth dividing the Ummah over a marriage, but not the death of the daughter and grandson of the Prophet (pbuh), or the issue of Imam Ali (as)'s right to the leadership of the Ummah?

#23 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:15 PM


And if Imam Ali (as) tries to prevent this marriage, then Umar would move against him, forcing a conflict that would divide the Ummah. Was it worth dividing the Ummah over a marriage, but not the death of the daughter and grandson of the Prophet (pbuh), or the issue of Imam Ali (as)'s right to the leadership of the Ummah?

Imam will never cave into blackmail. Today, this blackmail, tomorrow another one, and day after another one. Then there is no end to it. Use aql and not arguments.

Do you know the definition of blackmail?

#24 MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 03:50 PM

First off is this marriage allwoed? After all Prophet was grand father of Bibi Umme Kulsoom and Omar was father in law of the prophet.

Why would Omar propose to the younges daughter and not the older one? WAs she already married? If so there was not much of age difference between the two daughters why is it that one got married where as the other one wasnt?

Bibi Fatima, Prophets daughter curses them and Imam Ali marries bibi Fatima's daughter to the same accursed lanti. Makes perfect sense.
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#25 aladdin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 03:54 PM

^^^^ They don't use aql, and use literal. Allah has two physical literal hands, rather than Allah's two hands are open as He is the Most Generous.



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