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The Marriage Of A 9 Year Old Child. [title edited]


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#1 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 09:46 AM

Where do these ahadith come from? what was their motivation and why do some Muslims accept them?

#2 Abuu shaatha

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 10:09 AM

What hadiths? Did you mean the marriage between the prophet and Aisha? Because if it is then its not raping, since it was an agreement.

#3 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 10:13 AM

What hadiths? Did you mean the marriage between the prophet and Aisha? Because if it is then its not raping, since it was an agreement.


Agreement between who? you think a 9 year child is able to make an informed decision about

1) who she wants to 'marry'?
2) whether or not she should be having sex?

You think a child of 9 can give permission for someone to have sex with her do you?

and you believe that a prophet of God would WANT to have sex with a 9 year old child do you?

Edited by ~Ruqaya~, 15 May 2011 - 10:13 AM.


#4 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 10:42 AM

Since you know that these ahadith exist, do some research before throwing words like 'rape' around.

Yes, Aisha most likely was around 9 or 10 (I doubt we can know exactly how old she was due to the fact that back then nobody probably knew exactly how old they were). Bibi Fatima (as) was also around that age when she got married to Imam Ali (as).

In order to understand these things, you should do some research into the ages people got married at though history, and the changing ideas of what 'childhood' is. Extended childhoods are a relatively recent phenomenon, and it was common even in Europe and America for 10-12 year olds to get married less than 200 years ago. The age of consent in the state of Delaware was 7 until around 1880.

#5 ElderWand

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:08 AM

Since you know that these ahadith exist, do some research before throwing words like 'rape' around.

Yes, Aisha most likely was around 9 or 10 (I doubt we can know exactly how old she was due to the fact that back then nobody probably knew exactly how old they were). Bibi Fatima (as) was also around that age when she got married to Imam Ali (as).

In order to understand these things, you should do some research into the ages people got married at though history, and the changing ideas of what 'childhood' is. Extended childhoods are a relatively recent phenomenon, and it was common even in Europe and America for 10-12 year olds to get married less than 200 years ago. The age of consent in the state of Delaware was 7 until around 1880.


+1, excellent reply! and just to add, Fatima (a.s) was nothing like we would have been as children. She were brought up amongst prophets and had a high level of maturity.

#6 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:49 AM

Since you know that these ahadith exist, do some research before throwing words like 'rape' around.

Yes, Aisha most likely was around 9 or 10 (I doubt we can know exactly how old she was due to the fact that back then nobody probably knew exactly how old they were). Bibi Fatima (as) was also around that age when she got married to Imam Ali (as).

In order to understand these things, you should do some research into the ages people got married at though history, and the changing ideas of what 'childhood' is. Extended childhoods are a relatively recent phenomenon, and it was common even in Europe and America for 10-12 year olds to get married less than 200 years ago. The age of consent in the state of Delaware was 7 until around 1880.


Where did this about Fatima(as) come from? i have routinely heard she was much older than that.

2ndly it makes not one IOTA of difference what other people were practicing in Delaware in 1880. People have debased and abused THROUGHOUT HISTORY, you can quote any practice in any period you like. What we are talking about here is the Prophet of God, by definition a person who is not subject to the base practices of the people around him, he is of a different standard and these practices are culture and time specific, a Prophet of God is above that.

If you were talking about almost anything other than sex then i would agree with you. But sex is something that children are kept relatively ignorant of in most cultures to an extent and were then also, people were not teaching their children about sex, its practicalities and ramifications or doing it in front of their kids.
Apart from that, a child of 9 is not physically or psychologically able to deal with the realities of sexual intercourse or its results. 9 year old children now are physically no different from 9 year old children then and very unlikey to be mentally much more mature either (some hadiths have aisha playing with dolls with her friends and swinging on a swing when she was told of her marriage). 9 year old children LOOk like 9 year old children, they do not look like women, they do not have hips and breasts and developed features or bodies ready for pregnancy. Nature unfortunately sometimes gives girls as young as 9 their first period, but it doesnt correlate with their mental ability to be able to deal with sex or their physical ability to be able to bare children.

I take it from your response that you believe the matter of a 9 year old being able to make an informed decision about whether it should be having sex and whether it should be happening at all is entirely subjective do you? [Edited]

I was actually under the fortunate impression that only Sunni's belived Aisha to be that young, the fact that Shia's give this credence is saddening.

Edited by ~Ruqaya~, 15 May 2011 - 11:56 AM.
Avoid personal attacks. Member warned.


#7 Abdaal

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:54 AM

Since you know that these ahadith exist, do some research before throwing words like 'rape' around.

Yes, Aisha most likely was around 9 or 10 (I doubt we can know exactly how old she was due to the fact that back then nobody probably knew exactly how old they were). Bibi Fatima (as) was also around that age when she got married to Imam Ali (as).

In order to understand these things, you should do some research into the ages people got married at though history, and the changing ideas of what 'childhood' is. Extended childhoods are a relatively recent phenomenon, and it was common even in Europe and America for 10-12 year olds to get married less than 200 years ago. The age of consent in the state of Delaware was 7 until around 1880.

Good reply. In fact, I even question where Bibi Khatijah (as) was 40 years when she married the Prophet (pbuh). I think all these reports have issues when it comes to ages.

I was actually under the fortunate impression that only Sunni's belived Aisha to be that young, the fact that Shia's give this credence(yet, to be frank, i am not surprised Haidar is one of them) is saddening.

You totally ignored the reply he gave. The brother said Bibi Fatima (sa) was around the same age during her time of marriage.
This is according to reports as well.

#8 Guest_Mushu_*

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:56 AM

Sayed Ammar Nakshwani has very simply and logically proven that at her minimum age at the time of marriage was either 17 or 14. Listen to his lecture below:

http://video.google....25915297355194#



Here Ruqaya, watch this please.

It took me a while to find it JUST FOR YOU, so you'd better actually watch it!

:P

#9 Abdaal

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 11:59 AM

Here Ruqaya, watch this please.

It took me a while to find it JUST FOR YOU, so you'd better actually watch it!

:P

So please tell me what the mainstream 12r Shia belief is about the age of when BIbi Fatima (sa) passed away.

#10 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:02 PM

I dont think it was fair to edit out my question about whether the person who replied to my comment would be ok with their 9 year old sister/daughter having sexual relations with a man. Its a serious question that people need to confront them selves with. My position is that we know this is wrong, not culturally, but with onbjevtive reason, we see that certain decisions need ot be informed and through maturity and that certain acts are wrong for reasons, because they are harmful and an abuse of power. Then we have to get serious and ask if this is likely of a Prophet of God or whether ahadith has been misrepresenting the truth.

#11 Guest_Mushu_*

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:05 PM

So please tell me what the mainstream 12r Shia belief is about the age of when BIbi Fatima (sa) passed away.



Hmmm? Whats that got to do with me lol?

Anyways, im not sure, but wasnt it 18ish?

#12 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:06 PM

Here Ruqaya, watch this please.

It took me a while to find it JUST FOR YOU, so you'd better actually watch it!

:P


I didnt watch it, but will later. I also was under the impression Fatima(as) was in that older age bracket, which is a very different prospect than the 9 years the other poster was asserting. Some people say she was as old as 25 when she died, but more usual was 18 when she died. Ty Mushu =)

Edited by ~Ruqaya~, 15 May 2011 - 12:09 PM.


#13 titumir

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:08 PM

Since you know that these ahadith exist, do some research before throwing words like 'rape' around.

Yes, Aisha most likely was around 9 or 10 (I doubt we can know exactly how old she was due to the fact that back then nobody probably knew exactly how old they were). Bibi Fatima (as) was also around that age when she got married to Imam Ali (as).

In order to understand these things, you should do some research into the ages people got married at though history, and the changing ideas of what 'childhood' is. Extended childhoods are a relatively recent phenomenon, and it was common even in Europe and America for 10-12 year olds to get married less than 200 years ago. The age of consent in the state of Delaware was 7 until around 1880.



Interesting thing, my own grandmother married when she was 8 years old. She lived to be around 90 and had 7 children. Its really offensive for the OP to suggest that 1400 years ago a 9 year old child marrying was "rape", when it was common just 2 generations ago. No doubt she wants desperately to be thought of as some great feminist, crusading for women's rights. After all, it doesn't cost any money or effort to throw around accusations, and if she can get some reputation as a "staunch defender of women's rights", wheres the harm.

#14 Abdaal

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:10 PM

Hmmm? Whats that got to do with me lol?

Anyways, im not sure, but wasnt it 18ish?


That's what I read. Yet when you do the calculation with that age, Bibi Fatima (sa) age is also closer to 9ish when she was married. So how does Ammar respond to that ?

I dont think it was fair to edit out my question about whether the person who replied to my comment would be ok with their 9 year old sister/daughter having sexual relations with a man. Its a serious question that people need to confront them selves with. My position is that we know this is wrong, not culturally, but with onbjevtive reason, we see that certain decisions need ot be informed and through maturity and that certain acts are wrong for reasons, because they are harmful and an abuse of power. Then we have to get serious and ask if this is likely of a Prophet of God or whether ahadith has been misrepresenting the truth.

So one side accuses the Prophet (pbuh) and the other side accuses Imam Ali (as) ?

Interesting thing, my own grandmother married when she was 8 years old. She lived to be around 90 and had 7 children. Its really offensive for the OP to suggest that 1400 years ago a 9 year old child marrying was "rape", when it was common just 2 generations ago. No doubt she wants desperately to be thought of as some great feminist, crusading for women's rights. After all, it doesn't cost any money or effort to throw around accusations, and if she can get some reputation as a "staunch defender of women's rights", wheres the harm.



I had Sikhs attacking Islam for this, but I showed them from their own sources that even their Gurus married young girls.

#15 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:14 PM

Here Ruqaya, watch this please.

It took me a while to find it JUST FOR YOU, so you'd better actually watch it!

:P


I wish people stopped posting that video everywhere. These are all modernist Sunni arguments that have stronger counter-arguments, which I have posted many times but people keep ignoring.

First of all, here is a Sahih Shia hadith that brother Nader Zaveri, http://www.shiachat....-on-aishas-age/, posted in another thread:


Åöäóø ÑóÓõæáó Çááóøåö Õ ÏóÎóáó ÈöÚóÇÆöÔóÉó æó åöíó ÈöäúÊõ ÚóÔúÑö Óöäöíäó æó áóíúÓó íõÏúÎóáõ ÈöÇáúÌóÇÑöíóÉö ÍóÊóøì Êóßõæäó ÇãúÑóÃóÉð

"The Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã entered upon (had sexual intercouse with) `Aa'ishah when she was 10 years old, and that one does not enter a jaariyah (girl) until she became a woman."

Source:
* Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7 pg. 388 - 389, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
* Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
--> Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235

You can also find it here: http://www.tashayyu....a/age-of-bulugh

Brother AlMuttaqi also quoted the following on the same thread:

On Ayatollah Sayyid Fadlullah wesbite this

"Q: Is it morally and traditionally permissible for a man of 32 to marry of woman who is barely 17 years old?

A: Why not: The prophet(p.), our role model, married Aisha when she wad 10 years old while he was 53 years. If both parties accept the marriage than there is nothing wrong with it."


Secondly, here are the Sunni counter-arguments that I mentioned: http://www.shiachat....21#entry2088621

I didnt watch it, but will later. I also was under the impression Fatima(as) was in that older age bracket, which is a very different prospect than the 9 years the other poster was asserting. Some people say she was as old as 25 when she died, but more usual was 18 when she died. Ty Mushu =)


If Bibi Fatima (as) was 18 when she died, which is the usually agreed upon age, then she was about 9 when she married.

#16 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:17 PM

Interesting thing, my own grandmother married when she was 8 years old. She lived to be around 90 and had 7 children. Its really offensive for the OP to suggest that 1400 years ago a 9 year old child marrying was "rape", when it was common just 2 generations ago. No doubt she wants desperately to be thought of as some great feminist, crusading for women's rights. After all, it doesn't cost any money or effort to throw around accusations, and if she can get some reputation as a "staunch defender of women's rights", wheres the harm.


Well that made zero sense, neither did you actually make a point. Since when does caring for the rights/wlefare of children

1) have any negative connotation
2) equal feminism

By that logical you think a feminist cant also be a child abuser?

So what if your granma was 8 when she was married. Did she have sex forced on her at that age and if so was it not 'rape'? your statement does not address the question of whether sex with a child of 9 can ever not be rape.Whether a child of 9 can make an informed decision about sex and even if you decide it can, whether its right that an adult should have sex with a child. Once again youre talking about cultural norms as if its the only consideration. We can jusge whether something is right or wrong outside of a cultural norm. I am asking these questions and so far no one has addressed them.

p.s im not of the believe, that you seem to be, that defending womens 'rights' is not incompatable with Islam, so this is not an insult to me.

#17 ShiaSoldier@2007

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:23 PM

I didnt watch it, but will later. I also was under the impression Fatima(as) was in that older age bracket, which is a very different prospect than the 9 years the other poster was asserting. Some people say she was as old as 25 when she died, but more usual was 18 when she died. Ty Mushu =)





This video Says Otherwise


Watch it, it has some pretty valid arguments.

#18 akf

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:24 PM

(salam)

It would be nice if people actually learn a thing or two before speaking. How, in the name of everything that is holy, does a consensual marriage between a 9 year old and a man account to rape? Stop trying to take your narrow view of the world and try to apply it to everyone else. At that time, 9 year old girls were more mature than some 20 year olds today. In fact, I would consider marriage to a 30 year old woman who drinks alcohol to be more of a rape than that.

#19 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:31 PM

Where did this about Fatima(as) come from? i have routinely heard she was much older than that.

Imam Ali (as) and Bibi Fatima (as) married in either the 1st or 2nd year after hijra. She then died in the 11th year after hijra, at the age of 18. So that makes her about 9 when she married.

2ndly it makes not one IOTA of difference what other people were practicing in Delaware in 1880. People have debased and abused THROUGHOUT HISTORY, you can quote any practice in any period you like. What we are talking about here is the Prophet of God, by definition a person who is not subject to the base practices of the people around him, he is of a different standard and these practices are culture and time specific, a Prophet of God is above that.

Their is an assumption in your thinking that we are somehow objectively morally superior to those who came before us. So whatever we decide is the right is correct, and if they did things differently, then they were wrong. The point of bringing up Delware was to show you that until relatively recently, nobody thought it was unusual for a 9 year girl to get married. This is a recent phenomenon.

If you were talking about almost anything other than sex then i would agree with you. But sex is something that children are kept relatively ignorant of in most cultures to an extent and were then also, people were not teaching their children about sex, its practicalities and ramifications or doing it in front of their kids.
Apart from that, a child of 9 is not physically or psychologically able to deal with the realities of sexual intercourse or its results. 9 year old children now are physically no different from 9 year old children then and very unlikey to be mentally much more mature either (some hadiths have aisha playing with dolls with her friends and swinging on a swing when she was told of her marriage). 9 year old children LOOk like 9 year old children, they do not look like women, they do not have hips and breasts and developed features or bodies ready for pregnancy. Nature unfortunately sometimes gives girls as young as 9 their first period, but it doesnt correlate with their mental ability to be able to deal with sex or their physical ability to be able to bare children.

This is where you are wrong, and instead of just making assumptions, you need to actually do a bit of research. Read this for example:

It has been argued that childhood is not a natural phenomenon but a creation of society. Philippe Ariès, an important French medievalist and historian, pointed this out in his book Centuries of Childhood. This theme was then taken up by Cunningham in his book the Invention of Childhood (2006) which looks at the historical aspects of childhood from the Middle Ages to what he refers to as the Post War Period of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

Ariès published a study in 1961 of paintings, gravestones, furniture, and school records. He found that before the 17th-century, children were represented as mini-adults. Since then historians have increasingly researched childhood in past times. Before Ariès, George Boas had published The Cult of Childhood.

During the Renaissance, artistic depictions of children increased dramatically in Europe. This did not impact the social attitude to children much, however—see the article on child labour.

The man usually credited with - or accused of - creating the modern notion of childhood is Jean Jacques Rousseau. Building on the ideas of John Locke and other 17th-century liberal thinkers, Rousseau formulated childhood as a brief period of sanctuary before people encounter the perils and hardships of adulthood. "Why rob these innocents of the joys which pass so quickly," Rousseau pleaded. "Why fill with bitterness the fleeting early days of childhood, days which will no more return for them than for you?"

The Victorian Era has been described as a source of the modern institution of childhood. Ironically, the Industrial Revolution during this era led to an increase in child labour, but due to the campaigning of the Evangelicals, and efforts of author Charles Dickens and others, child labour was gradually reduced and halted in England via the Factory Acts of 1802-1878. The Victorians concomitantly emphasized the role of the family and the sanctity of the child, and broadly speaking, this attitude has remained dominant in Western societies since then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood#History_of_childhood


I take it from your response that you believe the matter of a 9 year old being able to make an informed decision about whether it should be having sex and whether it should be happening at all is entirely subjective do you? [Edited]

I take it you wanted to ask me if I would let my daughter get married at 9. Let me answer it this way. If I was living in a society that consider it acceptable, and one that didn't have this culture of extended childhood (that among other things keeps people mentally immature for a long period of time), and she was mentally and physically ready, then yes I would, especially if it was to a prophet of God.


I was actually under the fortunate impression that only Sunni's belived Aisha to be that young, the fact that Shia's give this credence is saddening.

Yes, this would be very fortunate for modern Shia apologists, but it is not the case.

This video Says Otherwise


Watch it, it has some pretty valid arguments.

Another Shia apologist palming off modernist Sunni arguments as his own research. Once again, I will challenge people to refute the following: http://www.shiachat....21#entry2088621

By the way, don't you guys find it weird how these Shia apologist always quote Sunnis books when someone asks them about Aisha's age, instead of going to Shia books (where we find that Aisha was 10)?

#20 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:39 PM

I wish people stopped posting that video everywhere. These are all modernist Sunni arguments that have stronger counter-arguments, which I have posted many times but people keep ignoring.

First of all, here is a Sahih Shia hadith that brother Nader Zaveri, http://www.shiachat....-on-aishas-age/, posted in another thread:


Åöäóø ÑóÓõæáó Çááóøåö Õ ÏóÎóáó ÈöÚóÇÆöÔóÉó æó åöíó ÈöäúÊõ ÚóÔúÑö Óöäöíäó æó áóíúÓó íõÏúÎóáõ ÈöÇáúÌóÇÑöíóÉö ÍóÊóøì Êóßõæäó ÇãúÑóÃóÉð

"The Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã entered upon (had sexual intercouse with) `Aa'ishah when she was 10 years old, and that one does not enter a jaariyah (girl) until she became a woman."

Source:
* Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7 pg. 388 - 389, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
* Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
--> Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235

You can also find it here: http://www.tashayyu....a/age-of-bulugh

Brother AlMuttaqi also quoted the following on the same thread:


Secondly, here are the Sunni counter-arguments that I mentioned: http://www.shiachat....21#entry2088621



If Bibi Fatima (as) was 18 when she died, which is the usually agreed upon age, then she was about 9 when she married.


Well, youve upped the age by 1, theres progress. The term 'untill she became' a woman is very ambiguous there. Is it a euphamism for starting your period? if so, this isnt the criterior for making someone a woman, as we know, its known for children younger than 9 to start there period, you wouldnt suddenly announce them to be women on the first sight of menstrual blood. So other criteria has to be taken into consideration and we have to assertain whether something is likely; whether a Prophet of God would be sexually attracted to a female who was/looked like a child and would act on those feelings. Again, extremely hard to reconcile when you consider the kind of standard of moralty needed for prophethood. Also, why do these ahadith say when the Prophet(saW) had sex? why on earth would anyone else know this? unless Aisha said it herself, which i have read, but since when do Shia's go by the quotes of Aisha?

Very dodgey area.

You may say that about bibi Fatima(as) marrying, other people esteimate it differently, but marrying also does not equal sex. We are talking about sex. Are you now going to quote me ahadith on Fatima(as) or Ali(as) giving commentary about whern they first had sex i wonder.

(salam)

It would be nice if people actually learn a thing or two before speaking. How, in the name of everything that is holy, does a consensual marriage between a 9 year old and a man account to rape? Stop trying to take your narrow view of the world and try to apply it to everyone else. At that time, 9 year old girls were more mature than some 20 year olds today. In fact, I would consider marriage to a 30 year old woman who drinks alcohol to be more of a rape than that.


If you havent the powers of reason to engage with this topic properly, please feel free not to 'contribute'.

Where is your evidence that '9 year old girls were more mature than 20 year olds today'?

why would you consider it not rape?

#21 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:45 PM

Well, youve upped the age by 1, theres progress. The term 'untill she became' a woman is very ambiguous there. Is it a euphamism for starting your period? if so, this isnt the criterior for making someone a woman, as we know, its known for children younger than 9 to start there period, you wouldnt suddenly announce them to be women on the first sight of menstrual blood. So other criteria has to be taken into consideration and we have to assertain whether something is likely; whether a Prophet of God would be sexually attracted to a female who was/looked like a child and would act on those feelings. Again, extremely hard to reconcile when you consider the kind of standard of moralty needed for prophethood. Also, why do these ahadith say when the Prophet(saW) had sex? why on earth would anyone else know this? unless Aisha said it herself, which i have read, but since when do Shia's go by the quotes of Aisha?

You will never understand this until you realise you are carrying a lot of presuppositions due to the age and culture you live in, and actually research was childhood was like in pre-modern times. You can't compare the mental age of a 9 year old girl of the time to a 9 year old living in comfortable conditions in the 21st century. Even now, girls are going through puberty at younger and younger ages. 9 is not considered especially early.


You may say that about bibi Fatima(as) marrying, other people esteimate it differently, but marrying also does not equal sex. We are talking about sex. Are you now going to quote me ahadith on Fatima(as) or Ali(as) giving commentary about whern they first had sex i wonder.

Bibi Fatima (as) was married in 2AH, and Imam Hasan (as) was born in the year 3AH. You do the math, as they say.

Edited by Haider Husayn, 15 May 2011 - 12:45 PM.


#22 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:54 PM

Their is an assumption in your thinking that we are somehow objectively morally superior to those who came before us. So whatever we decide is the right is correct, and if they did things differently, then they were wrong. The point of bringing up Delware was to show you that until relatively recently, nobody thought it was unusual for a 9 year girl to get married. This is a recent phenomenon.


This is you making the assumptions. I do not suppose at all that all morality today is superior to all morality before us. Even if you can give evidence that 200 years ago it was usual for children of 9 to marry (which you cant, because it wasnt USUAL then) it makes no difference. There could have been no law against padeophila yesterday but there is a law today, thats doesnt mean that it was ok yesterday but is now wrong today. I wouldnt necessarily even condemn these people marrying 9 year olds willy nilly in Delaware if it was a cultural norm of the time, the ramifications of which were misunderstood or not appreciated, it is percievabe that something one finds abhorant can be normalised in another culture/time to such an extent that people dont honestly believe that were doing something abhorant, there motivations not necessarily bad. But a prophet is supposed to be above this, his behaviour may be modified by the culture he finds himself in, but he is not tied to the limits of their imaginations/reasoning/moral norms. For fallible, weak people it is something you expect, for a prophet, not.

P.S why wouldnt you let your daughter/sister go with womeone who wasnt a prophet of God? either the principle is right or it isnt.

#23 Mohammed-W

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 12:58 PM

People of all faiths justify nonsense they usually wouldnt, otherwise they are not 'believers'

#24 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 01:06 PM

This is you making the assumptions. I do not suppose at all that all morality today is superior to all morality before us. Even if you can give evidence that 200 years ago it was usual for children of 9 to marry (which you cant, because it wasnt USUAL then) it makes no difference. There could have been no law against padeophila yesterday but there is a law today, thats doesnt mean that it was ok yesterday but is now wrong today. I wouldnt necessarily even condemn these people marrying 9 year olds willy nilly in Delaware if it was a cultural norm of the time, the ramifications of which were misunderstood or not appreciated, it is percievabe that something one finds abhorant can be normalised in another culture/time to such an extent that people dont honestly believe that were doing something abhorant, there motivations not necessarily bad. But a prophet is supposed to be above this, his behaviour may be modified by the culture he finds himself in, but he is not tied to the limits of their imaginations/reasoning/moral norms. For fallible, weak people it is something you expect, for a prophet, not.

Ok, think what you want. No amount of evidence is going to convince you of anything. All I will say is if the Prophet (pbuh) and Imam Ali (as) did it, then it obviously can't be wrong. The one who decides what is morally correct is Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, not the consensus of post-industrial Western intellectuals. You say that marrying a 9 year old is abhorrant as if it is obvious, without examining whether you aren't being influenced by the culture you grew up in that tells you it is abhorrent. As far as I am concerned there are two kinds of people: those that use divine guidance as a lense through which to view the culture they live in, and those who use the culture they live in as a lense through which to view divine guidance. I think you currently fall into the second category, although you are certainly not alone on here.

P.S why wouldnt you let your daughter/sister go with womeone who wasnt a prophet of God? either the principle is right or it isnt.


If I thought he would make a good husband, and the other conditions I mentioned were fulfilled, then yes.

#25 Ruq

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 01:16 PM

You will never understand this until you realise you are carrying a lot of presuppositions due to the age and culture you live in, and actually research was childhood was like in pre-modern times. You can't compare the mental age of a 9 year old girl of the time to a 9 year old living in comfortable conditions in the 21st century. Even now, girls are going through puberty at younger and younger ages. 9 is not considered especially early.



Bibi Fatima (as) was married in 2AH, and Imam Hasan (as) was born in the year 3AH. You do the math, as they say.



As long as you keep dodging my questions and repeating yourself we wont move on. How do you know the mental age of a 9 year old in the time of the prophet? do children not live in dire conditions in the 21st century? are the kids crawling around on rubbish heaps in india and less children? they are living extremely harsh conditions, they see the brutalities of life first hand and dont have the cosy comforts of most western children. They dont have people pampering them, they look with eyes that have seen. But you give a girl a doll or a boy a toy car and they are playing like children. You give them the chance, they behave like children, they may be tougher but they are still children and the realities and harshness of the adult world are still disturbing to them. They can have more life experience, but that doesnt mean they are making mature decisions. Its not just being exposed to things that makes you ready for them or able to deal with them well. And you cannot justify something by citing other examples of it, it doesnt make it right, no matter how recent they may have been.
Is it ok for a person to have sex with a child who is from a harsh culture where they are exposed to relaities of responsibilities earlier (for a man to go to the Congo to find a child to have sex with) and not ok for a man to have sex with a child in the west because children in the west are pampered?

All I will say is if the Prophet (pbuh) and Imam Ali (as) did it, then it obviously can't be wrong. The one who decides what is morally correct is Allah سبحانه وتعالى,


Is it unequivocally written in Quran? if not then it is up for debate. There is ahadith 'science', and this is helpful, but we also have to use reason to decide whether a hadith is likely to be right or wrong. We dont KNOW that the Prphet(saw) or imam Ali(as) did this and its an extremely serious subject to be unsure about. You are throwing ahadith around like they are fact, like they are infallible. If you do that with ahadith about wether your right foot should be on top of your left foot when you pray or vice versa the results of propagating one view over the other is not going to have a harmful effect. But propagating these ahadith is a different matter, it leaves children open to some of the most heinous abuse possible, the results of which im sure i dont need to spell out. Im sure there is a long legacy of it already.

Edited by ~Ruqaya~, 15 May 2011 - 01:17 PM.




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