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Nizari

Aga Khan and His Family

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LOL. Ugly Jinn this thread is the answer to your dispute about saying any imami shias can be right and how it isnt defined in the quran. There ya go. Just compare our imams to any other sect besides imami and youll see which is truly an imam appointed by Allah.

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LOL. Ugly Jinn this thread is the answer to your dispute about saying any imami shias can be right and how it isnt defined in the quran. There ya go. Just compare our imams to any other sect besides imami and youll see which is truly an imam appointed by Allah.

Actually, Ismailis can brag about the fact that their belief is consistent with the concept of Imamat (there will be a divine Imam to guide), while twelver don't have one available - which is a contradiction to the concept.

As much as I find it odd that people can blindly believe Agha Khan who cannot even prove his divinity, I'm not surprised. If you were born into an Ismaili family, there's a 95%+ chance you'd be an Ismaili with a picture of Agha Khan in your house. That's reality, no matter what you say.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Actually, Ismailis can brag about the fact that their belief is consistent with the concept of Imamat (there will be a divine Imam to guide), while twelver don't have one available - which is a contradiction to the concept.

As much as I find it odd that people can blindly believe Agha Khan who cannot even prove his divinity, I'm not surprised. If you were born into an Ismaili family, there's a 95%+ chance you'd be an Ismaili with a picture of Agha Khan in your house. That's reality, no matter what you say.

right, says this ^^ guy who thinks he knows everything. Im suprised you believe in a God you cant see. Now that seems contradictory to what you just stated. Its not even the fact that our imam has never been seen or he doesnt exist, its the fact that he went into hiding, plan and simple. Even then he as well as the other imams guides us and has been guiding us since day 1, otherwise shia islam wouldnt be shia islam. Im sorry to tell you but when you can prove he never existed or doesnt exist then ill believe you, but for right now your just using assumptions.

im surprised to know where you got 95% from? Any sources? I think not. Many people follow what their born in but that doesnt mean many people who are born into a religion dont change their beliefs.

Edited by PureEthics

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Actually, Ismailis can brag about the fact that their belief is consistent with the concept of Imamat (there will be a divine Imam to guide), while twelver don't have one available - which is a contradiction to the concept.

As much as I find it odd that people can blindly believe Agha Khan who cannot even prove his divinity, I'm not surprised. If you were born into an Ismaili family, there's a 95%+ chance you'd be an Ismaili with a picture of Agha Khan in your house. That's reality, no matter what you say.

Let;s start discussing then, and hopefully we can break it all down into a simple conclusion that we might agree on. Which seems more logical and responsive to your Aql(intellect) in a way that it's the most reflective to the Quran and authentic Ahadith, the sunni concept of the Khalifate in Sunnism or the concept of Immamate in Shia Twelver?

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The only "Seveners" or "Ismailis" in existence are the Nizaris (who follow the Aga Khan) and the Bohras (of which there are a few groups: Alavis, Dawoodis and Sulaymanis).

The Bohras, in general, are much closer to Twelver Shi'ism and orthodox Islam. They believe in the Shar'iah and uphold the five pillars of Islam (including Islamic salaat or namaz), for example. They do not believe in the Aga Khan but believe in others as their Imams earlier in the chain of descendancy from the Prophet (and they believe their Imams are in occultation).

As discussed earlier in this thread, if you go back and look at the line of Imamat for Ismailis, Imam Nizar didn't actually have a son and the present Aga Khan is not in fact a descendant of the Prophet at all. Most historians will not dispute this. Given this and how many people in the world claim to be descendants of the Prophet, the onus is on the Aga Khan to prove that he is in fact a descendant of the Prophet and to this point he has not done so (and I expect that he will continue to refuse to give evidence for his claim). In any case, Nizari Ismailism shares little in common with the Islam practiced by the Prophet and the early Muslims, including Imam Ali. That alone is sufficient to demonstrate the lack of merit in Nizari Ismailism.

Thanks for the reply. I've always wondered why they weren't recognized as legitimate muslims in the Amman Message, since that sounds like denying that the Fatimirds were muslim. Although if most think of this man and his followers when they think of Seveners, I guess that is why that couldn't be done.

Yes, well paying 12.5% of your annual income for this man to live like some kind of playboy in the name of God seems horrible to me. If he was a christian, I'd definently view that as blasphemy.

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right, says this ^^ guy who thinks he knows everything. Im suprised you believe in a God you cant see. Now that seems contradictory to what you just stated. Its not even the fact that our imam has never been seen or he doesnt exist, its the fact that he went into hiding, plan and simple. Even then he as well as the other imams guides us and has been guiding us since day 1, otherwise shia islam wouldnt be shia islam. Im sorry to tell you but when you can prove he never existed or doesnt exist then ill believe you, but for right now your just using assumptions.

I just state what doesn't make sense. That's all.

On the contrary, you and many others act as if you all have attained absolute truth, which is comical as best.

Let;s start discussing then, and hopefully we can break it all down into a simple conclusion that we might agree on. Which seems more logical and responsive to your Aql(intellect) in a way that it's the most reflective to the Quran and authentic Ahadith, the sunni concept of the Khalifate in Sunnism or the concept of Immamate in Shia Twelver?

There are 2 things, what makes sense on paper and what is the reality.

On paper, who wouldn't want a divine agent guiding us. So the concept if Imamat would be more effective and helpful. But reality is that there is no Imam available from the concept, hence that concept makes no sense.

Sunnis concept is more to do with coming up with the best solution without a divine agent available. That's all. Nothing special about it, it's more of a political approach. Exactly what Iran is doing right now without the availability of 12th Imam, some fallible becomes a ruler.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Sunni sufis (which is basically an attempt to reconcile with the fact that Sunnism without Shi'a Islam (which is Islam) ends up being rotten wahabbism - unrecognizable as Islam) recognize the fact that there has to be a "pole" "qutb" of our time... in Shi'a Islam this is Imam Mahdi (as) ... however, having such a discussion with a materialist is impossible.

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I just state what doesn't make sense. That's all.

On the contrary, you and many others act as if you all have attained absolute truth, which is comical as best.

What you just said goes entirely back to you. You dont state it, you make us revolve around you. You talk in a way which you perceive your views is incumbent on others. You are the one that acts if you attained the truth while the others are just clueless believers who are just born into the religion they believe. Now this, this is comical.

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On 27/01/2013 at 4:38 PM, Perfectionist said:

True, the Jews beat everyone! I'm curious why you think success is due to the small size of these communities though? What would cause them to stop being successful if their communities grew larger?

I was just going through this thread and saw an important point, that I had not answered. As it happens it's something for which I had come across some ideas in the recent past.

The example of Jews, Ismailis, Bohris, (Sikhs) etc is often held up as illustrating the superiority of their beliefs, given the out-performance of their adherents along various socio-economic criteria.

My view is that there is a difference between very large communities and very small ones and in some ways it's similar to the difference between very large countries and very small ones.

So you'll often find Singapore and Switzerland beating larger countries. I think it's because when times are favourable, those countries can do very well indeed, but when times are not favourable they are sunk. So Singapore does well in a world with air-conditioning, without it life would be unbearable. In contrast, the U.S. may do less well on various measures than Singapore, because it has a very diverse population and geographies. But the very same variety meant the U.S. did better than Singapore when air-conditioning had not been invented.

Similarly, I think small faith groups do very well when the environment is ambient, but they do very badly when it turns against them. Religions with larger members tend to be more resilient IMHO.

Also, I believe that universality is important for religions.

 

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1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

 

Similarly, I think small faith groups do very well when the environment is ambient, but they do very badly when it turns against them. Religions with larger members tend to be more resilient IMHO.

 

Explains the situation in Oman, where Shias are a minority but are doing very well alhamdulilah thanks to the environment and our Sultan. But we fear the day he's gone (May God lengthen his life) and whoever replaces him might not be as just and tolerant.  

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