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Aga Khan and His Family

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Dear PrinceVisram,

This forum and many forums alike on the Internet are unfortunately filled with "nasb" (hatred), and venom.

People are generally on these sites to promote their own agendas.

Where as they have not been taught, and or are ignorant to cordial exchange of knowledge.

This is where the difference lies...

With Ya Ali Madad.

bismillah.gifsalam.gif

You would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the Username...

(salam)

If someone has a passion for something they love, if they throw that passion to something they appreciate it becomes a sign of devotion and thankfulness. This is all they were doing. Sure, you may consider it unacceptable, and even further - haram - but it is just a practice of devotion. I consider Matam during Ashura unacceptable and haram because of the fact that people are hurting themselves, but I can still see how it may be relevant to some extent in Islam and so still respect it as a form of devotion, if I may say, to one of the early Imams.

That was in no way a prayer of any sort, just a form of devotion. There are many Ismaili Muslims who are eager, as you mentioned, to fast the month of Ramadan. Salah, or prayer, is also something many people in the Ismiali Faith look forward to doing.

Since no Imams (not even Ismaili Imams) have said that one must not wear a hijab, there is no problem in doing so. Many women who come to the Jamatkhana I attend cover their heads with the scarf from their salwar kameez before the main Arabic prayer is recited, in a sign of respect.

We follow everything any other Muslim does just in a different way, a different manner, in accordance to the change of times and Imams.

(salam)

I like your thinking!

Yes of course I love Allah, Muhammad (pbuh) and the Imams (as), you are correct. As for the shaytan, Abu lahab, and those who oppressed the first Imam, I don't hate them but rather dislike. Hate is too strong of a word.

I remember reading a Sufi book "When You Hear Hoofbeats Think of a Zebra". In it, I don't remember the passage correctly, but it went something like: When we make something it becomes special - as if we have placed something of our own into it. In the same way, everything Allah creates it is like He has placed something of His own in it... Well the quote was something like that... Because Allah creates everything, I try not to hate anything as they are His creations and I do not want to hate anything which Allah created because surely He created them for a reason...

I just cringe upon hearing the word hate.. Dislike seems soo much better!

I had actually read this post before attending Jamatkhana today but did not have enough time to respond so I said I will leave it for later. At Jamatkhana, I changed the quote on the quote board (I change them every Thursday for the Friday prayer) and remembered you :) ... I changed the quote to:

"All containers are reduced in capacity by what is placed in them, except a container of knowledge, which expands." (pg. 38)

This quote is by Hazrat Ali and can be found in "Living and Dying with Grace: Counsels of Hadrat Ali" Translated by Thomas Cleary.

Knowledge surely is power.

Another quote I found in the same book as I wrote that quote which also reminded me of this post was:

"When asked about something you do not know, do not be ashamed to say you do not know and when you do not know something, do not be embarrassed to learn it. And may you have patience, for patience is faith as the head is to the body; there is no good in a body without it's head and none in faith without patience." (pg. 12-13)

Beautiful quotes full of fountains of wisdom!

(salam)

Thank you, respect goes likewise. Leave aside religion, but common sense tells people to speak with respect. We are supposed to learn respect from young and as we grow older. Jazakallah Khayran!

As for smoking, the Ismaili Imam (of this time) has said:

"...There are habits in your everyday life which cause ill-health, which cause loss of money, and one of these is a habit which I do not want in my Jamat, and that is smoking..."

Both the last Imam and this one have also told us not to drink on many occasions but I do not seem to have the Farmans with me. Insha'Allah I will post them if I find them, but in the mean time, you who are curious can ponder this verse (278) from a Ginan (Ismaili religious hymn):

To Munivar Bhaai sharaab shaytaan ni te piye,

Ane par stri saathe jaay,

Bhaai tene musalmaan mat kaho

(I will try to translate to what I think, please correct me if you can speak these indian dialects, I am a bit of a novice living in North America and a teenager :))

Oh my brothers, only shaytaan (satan) drinks sharaab (alcohol)

and they also go out with other men's wives (I think this is the meaning, pls confirm if possible!)

Oh brother! Do not call this a Musalmaan (Muslim)

So yes, it is haram for Ismailis as well to smoke and drink.

(salam)

These are all photoshopped. I have also run into them, and first found them in a forum where someone had posted his artistic creations for the world to laugh at. Also you can tell they are photoshopped, just look at the neck to the body.

But they don't bug me. Just like the recent renderings of the photographs of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in cartoons, I know these are all false pictures. All pictures as such are not true as both you and I know, and so why should we feel pain for them? They are but drawings without meaning..

bismillah.gifsalam.gif

The only thing that makes me suspicious is the fact that his wife and descendants don't dress islamically either. Those may be photoshopped as well, but I mean Photoshop can only do so much.

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"Since no Imams (not even Ismaili Imams) have said that one must not wear a hijab, there is no problem in doing so. Many women who come to the Jamatkhana I attend cover their heads with the scarf from their salwar kameez before the main Arabic prayer is recited, in a sign of respect."

Quranic Verses about Hijab:

“O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

"... and to draw their veils over their bosoms..."

The Arabic word /xumur/ is the plural form of /ximar/, which originally means veil, but it is usually applied to the thing with which women veil their head (scarf).

The Arabic word /juyub/ is the plural form of the word /jayb/, that means the collar of a shirt which is rendered to the

throat and it is sometimes applied to the upper part of the breast, because it is located near it.

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/index.htm

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

Imam Jafar Sadiq says: Modesty is the symbol of faith and whoever has no modesty (Hijab), has no religion.

imam did say wear a hijab.

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bismillah.gifsalam.gif

You would have gotten away with it if it weren't for the Username...

Yah, Agreed! :P

bismillah.gifsalam.gif

The only thing that makes me suspicious is the fact that his wife and descendants don't dress islamically either. Those may be photoshopped as well, but I mean Photoshop can only do so much.

In my opinion there is no way to "dress Islamically".. If he is the Imam then I do not see his physical clothes and body but rather his Noor (or soul)... Dressing a certain way is a material practice, not a spiritual one... If you judge someone as a Muslim or Imam by how they look, surely you would not consider me one! :)

Enforcing to keep beard in my opinion is just an innovation. Just because people of any religious demonination in ancient times did not have the technology to shave, does not mean it became a "law". The Quran-e-sharif does not mention anything about beard but certain hadiths do. Mind you, hadiths are not the words of Muhammad (pbuh) or Allah, but others who have witnessed Muhammad (pbuh) who deliberated Islam as we vision it today. If dressing a certain way <in an Islamic fasion, may I say,> is necessary, it would have been written in the Word of Allah.

"Since no Imams (not even Ismaili Imams) have said that one must not wear a hijab, there is no problem in doing so. Many women who come to the Jamatkhana I attend cover their heads with the scarf from their salwar kameez before the main Arabic prayer is recited, in a sign of respect."

Quranic Verses about Hijab:

“O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.” (Quran 7:26)

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

"... and to draw their veils over their bosoms..."

The Arabic word /xumur/ is the plural form of /ximar/, which originally means veil, but it is usually applied to the thing with which women veil their head (scarf).

The Arabic word /juyub/ is the plural form of the word /jayb/, that means the collar of a shirt which is rendered to the

throat and it is sometimes applied to the upper part of the breast, because it is located near it.

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/index.htm

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

Imam Jafar Sadiq says: Modesty is the symbol of faith and whoever has no modesty (Hijab), has no religion.

imam did say wear a hijab.

I may not be experienced as some may be here, but I do have an opinion which I would like to share. In the above quotes from the Qur'an-e-sharif, they mention to the women to cover their bossoms. I Googled the word (yes I did just use Google as a verb) and it came up with: "chest, breast; the pectoral muscles and mammae of the human, especially the female human". The quotes you have shared make perfect sense to me as well: each women must cover their breasts and act in a modest way.

Now I will try to dissect the quote below with a personal interpretation:

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

Interpretation:

And tell those women who believe to lower their eyes (from viewing mischief) and guard their modesty (literal definition: having a limited and not overly high opinion of oneself and one's abilities); that they should not display their beauty and ornaments (private parts) except what must ordinarily seen (i.e. ones face/hair/feet/hands); that they should draw their veils over their bosoms (once again, chest/breast) and not display their beauty except to their............. or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex (this means conversation is most probably dealing with private parts anyway)....... And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.

"Modesty is the symbol of faith and whoever has no modesty (Hijab), has no religion." - Imam Jafar Sadiq

What a beautiful quote! Again though I believe modesty is "having a limited and not overly high opinion of oneself and one's abilities" and not headscarf, otherwise when translated to english the word headscarf would have been used and not modesty.

If Allah wanted women to cover their heads then it could have been said in a much clearer way (i.e. And tell those women who believe to cover their heads with headscarfs..) so in my opinion, the words "modesty" and "bossoms" have little relation to "headscarf" and I feel rather than religion, the headscarf is Arab culture and tradition - this could also be why Catholics in some parts of Arabia wear a headscarf before entering their Church. The fact that headscarfs were worn before the Qur'an and Muhammad existed also show this may have been tradition/culture rather than religion. Again this is but an interpretation which will most likely not be accepted here, as it is hard to get acceptance here with these kind of matters. Some people here may have wanted to know my opinion so I shared it as an interpretation only and I do not mean to offend anyone here. Of course this interpretation would be something I would explain if I were a girl, but since I am not I cannot speak on another's behalf and this is only for an example (I would guess) which someone who was a female Ismaili would reply..

I don't have a problem with women wearing a Hijab as I think it is a wonderful tradition carried from the time of the Prophet (pbuh) but the reasons I have stated explain in my opinion why it is more so tradition over religion and it is not mandatory. I feel it is a choice upon every woman to decide if they wish to wear it or not.

(wasalam)

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I remember an interview with the Aga Khan where he mentioned that he has never even tasted alcohol in his life and that he has never allowed it for his followers. He also denied ever gambling although he is involved in the horse racing business. Do you have any evidence for your claims? I am not Ismaili, but if you do not could you please edit your post and remove these comments. Thank you.

Yeah, there's an interview with some Western mag from the 60s where he states that. I don't know if he's continued to be a teetotaller (if he ever has been one), though there's no doubt that he profits from the sale of alcohol in his hotel chain, and I'd be a bit surprised if the lavish parties he throws are really all alcohol free (read this about this one for instance that talks about no glass being left empty as well as the toast he gave http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/node/2641 with music and dancing to boot).

And in regards to his predecessor, Aga Khan III, I doubt it's water that's in this bottle...

73522420.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548D91F38D4792EBF50183BCFABF138BE519779F1405FB92269

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Yah, Agreed! :P

In my opinion there is no way to "dress Islamically".. If he is the Imam then I do not see his physical clothes and body but rather his Noor (or soul)... Dressing a certain way is a material practice, not a spiritual one... If you judge someone as a Muslim or Imam by how they look, surely you would not consider me one! :)

Enforcing to keep beard in my opinion is just an innovation. Just because people of any religious demonination in ancient times did not have the technology to shave, does not mean it became a "law". The Quran-e-sharif does not mention anything about beard but certain hadiths do. Mind you, hadiths are not the words of Muhammad (pbuh) or Allah, but others who have witnessed Muhammad (pbuh) who deliberated Islam as we vision it today. If dressing a certain way <in an Islamic fasion, may I say,> is necessary, it would have been written in the Word of Allah.

--------Jababah al-Walibiyah states in al-Kafi: “I once saw the Commander of the faithful, Ali (as) strolling in the courtyard with a two pronged staff and he was striking the fishmongers with it, who were selling fish which were unlawful to eat. And at the same time he was saying to them: O’ Fishmongers[1], you are similar to those who were from amongst the Banu Israil who were transformed (into apes), and similar to those who used to shave their beards and lengthen their moustaches from amongst the soldiers of Banu Marwan (who transgressed in the land)

http://www.al-islam.org/Islamic_perspective_beard/

I may not be experienced as some may be here, but I do have an opinion which I would like to share. In the above quotes from the Qur'an-e-sharif, they mention to the women to cover their bossoms. I Googled the word (yes I did just use Google as a verb) and it came up with: "chest, breast; the pectoral muscles and mammae of the human, especially the female human". The quotes you have shared make perfect sense to me as well: each women must cover their breasts and act in a modest way.

Now I will try to dissect the quote below with a personal interpretation:

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.” (Quran 24:31).

-------The Arabic word /xumur/ is the plural form of /ximar/, which originally means veil, but it is usually applied to the thing with which women veil their head (scarf).

Interpretation:

And tell those women who believe to lower their eyes (from viewing mischief) and guard their modesty (literal definition: having a limited and not overly high opinion of oneself and one's abilities); that they should not display their beauty and ornaments (private parts) except what must ordinarily seen (i.e. ones face/hair/feet/hands); that they should draw their veils over their bosoms (once again, chest/breast) and not display their beauty except to their............. or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex (this means conversation is most probably dealing with private parts anyway)....... And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.

--- ----if u notice the word veil there:

1. A length of cloth worn by women over the head, shoulders, and often the face.

2. A length of netting attached to a woman's hat or habit, worn for decoration or to protect the head and face.

Know if you see :

should draw their veils over their bosoms

clearly means the veil up to women breast. Veil basically meaning covering yourself with something over you head up to your breast>>> which is bosoms.

---------

"Modesty is the symbol of faith and whoever has no modesty (Hijab), has no religion." - Imam Jafar Sadiq

What a beautiful quote! Again though I believe modesty is "having a limited and not overly high opinion of oneself and one's abilities" and not headscarf, otherwise when translated to english the word headscarf would have been used and not modesty.

--------------Imam Ali said: Fatimah and I found Rasulollah (S) crying and we asked him for the reason. Rasulollah (S) replied, "When I was ascended to the heavens I saw some of the women of my Ummah in severe torment . . . He (S) said:

"I saw a woman hanging by her hair while her brain boiling"

Then Rasulollah (S) said:

As for the woman who was hanging by her hair, this was because she did not use to cover her hair from men.

[Bihar al-Anwar, volume 100, p245]

If Allah wanted women to cover their heads then it could have been said in a much clearer way (i.e. And tell those women who believe to cover their heads with headscarfs..) so in my opinion, the words "modesty" and "bossoms" have little relation to "headscarf" and I feel rather than religion, the headscarf is Arab culture and tradition - this could also be why Catholics in some parts of Arabia wear a headscarf before entering their Church. The fact that headscarfs were worn before the Qur'an and Muhammad existed also show this may have been tradition/culture rather than religion. Again this is but an interpretation which will most likely not be accepted here, as it is hard to get acceptance here with these kind of matters. Some people here may have wanted to know my opinion so I shared it as an interpretation only and I do not mean to offend anyone here. Of course this interpretation would be something I would explain if I were a girl, but since I am not I cannot speak on another's behalf and this is only for an example (I would guess) which someone who was a female Ismaili would reply..

another tasfeer : http://quran.al-islam.org/

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

These verses contain the legislation regarding modesty in dress, and discipline in intermingling of sexes, for both men and women. Women are not allowed to display their parts of body, adorned or not, to men except those mentioned in verse 31. They have to cover their bodies except face, hands (from the wrist) and feet (including ankles), but they should not be adorned as to stimulate sexual desire when they go out of their homes. There is no restriction on them if they have to come out from their houses. In any event what the Muslim women are doing under the influence of western civilisation is against the tenets of Islam.

The reason hijab is worn to protect a women from mens lustful eyes and many more reasons:

such as this

1. Head covering is a sign of purity and diginty. It highlights the Muslim woman as a pure, chaste woman and sets her apart from the immoral behavior associated with women who dress immodestly.

2. The Hijab Is a Sort of "Screen" between the chaste Muslim woman and the evil that exists in the world. When a woman wears a hijab she is less likely to be harassed by men with lusty motives; She is less likely to be exploited for her beauty and feminity.

3. The Hijab allows a woman to move about outside the confines of her home With her attention on the tasks she has set out to do. The Muslim woman does not try to impress anyone but Allah when outside of her home. She is not concerned if men find her attractive, or if people are impressed because she has the latest fashions, or the newest hairstyle. She leaves her home as a self-confident part of human race,not as a fashion-plate seeking stares and adoration in order to gain self-esteem.

4.The hijab cuts down on competition among women. How many people in the West sacrifice financial savings and health in order to have plastic surgery-in a desperate attempt to meet up to an unrealistic standard of beauty.

5.IN Islam, Women are appreciated for their Knowledge, piety and Contribution to society. When women wear hijab one finds that the most beautiful women are not necessarily the most popular. Rather, a woman is assessed for her mind, and not just superficial physical traits.

Christianity:

Corinthians 11:5

But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved

Genesis 24:65

She said to the servant, "Who is that man walking in the field to meet us?" And the servant said, "He is my master." Then she took her veil and covered herself.

Corinthians 11:13

Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered

Its not a tradtion but a must thing according Christians bible :)

I don't have a problem with women wearing a Hijab as I think it is a wonderful tradition carried from the time of the Prophet (pbuh) but the reasons I have stated explain in my opinion why it is more so tradition over religion and it is not mandatory. I feel it is a choice upon every woman to decide if they wish to wear it or not.

please the read link here:

(wasalam)

(salaam)

i put the answer in your quote its either in italic or bold.

(wsalaam)

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Yeah, there's an interview with some Western mag from the 60s where he states that. I don't know if he's continued to be a teetotaller (if he ever has been one), though there's no doubt that he profits from the sale of alcohol in his hotel chain, and I'd be a bit surprised if the lavish parties he throws are really all alcohol free (read this about this one for instance that talks about no glass being left empty as well as the toast he gave http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/node/2641 with music and dancing to boot).

And in regards to his predecessor, Aga Khan III, I doubt it's water that's in this bottle...

73522420.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789215ABF3343C02EA548D91F38D4792EBF50183BCFABF138BE519779F1405FB92269

Okay so I'm not going to bother replying until someone here is interested to learn for the sake of learning about another section of Islam and respecting the beliefs of it. Some people on this forum are so greedy for knowledge so that they can say "I know more so now I can prove wrong/criticize"... I am not talking about everyone here, just a few who like to stir the pot. I am not one who likes debates; I have said this before. They simply cannot accept the fact that I am from another culture of Islam and I practice things differently.. Why? Well iv'e tried to explain several times but every time there's always one person who tries to criticize..

I don't care if you call me a non-Muslim because you are not one to judge. It is between Allah and myself who knows I am Muslim. My faith is strong and people here wont change that. May Allah forgive me if I have said anything wrong.

If you don't want to learn about Ismaili Islam from an Ismaili, you can find your own way. I just don't feel the need to try and express my interpretations of Islam to people who don't have a sense of brotherhood. I have tried to be friendly with everyone here but some people just do not show respect and debates are not my cup of tea.

"Show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant." 7:199

Khuda Hafiz

(salaam)

i put the answer in your quote its either in italic or bold.

(wsalaam)

Thanks for your replies but I don't like debates and feel they are not worthy of anything, especially not on the topic of religion. If you would like me to say it any other words "you win" if that is what makes you happy. I was just sharing my interpretation which I said before you do not have to accept nor agree with.

This is a quote which I stated earlier in another thread on why I don't feel debates on religion are right:

I'm not a big fan of debates and proving each other wrong or right, so I am not going to further post my opinions.. You can accept it as surrender or weakness if you'd like, but I am doing it in the name of peace. I answer to provide understanding, not to spark debate - I'm just not that type.. I feel that as we debate and prove each other, our brotherhood separates. Again, I would not know, as I am probably not as experienced as the most of the members on this forum. May Allah guide us all.

"Do not commit yourself to lengthy discussions of religion- such talk only succeeds in making religion a complex and confused matter. God has made religion easy and simple."

- Prophet Muhammad (Essential Sufism, pg. 89)

"My religion is right! No my religion is right! No the way I practice is right! No the way I do is correct!" --> We sound like little kids.

The fact is, I am praying to the same God you and everyone else is.

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

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I think I struck a nerve. Or was it seeing that picture of your "Imam" in a tux next to a blonde with wine on the table that set you at ill ease? You know, you sound like a nice enough guy. In sha Allah you'll wake up and see how hoodwinked you are being by these impostor aristocrats living the high life off your dime.

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Some people believe this guy is an Imam, when the fact of the matter is he has very little religious knowledge. Imamat (both divine and non Divine) is something that has to be proven via actions and works.

Also, we would learn about Ismailsam our own way except for the fact that JammaKhanna's are not open to Non isamili's and there is not 1 Major Ismali scholar putting out work/debating about Ismailisam. Some of the things the Aga Khan does/says are in clear contradiction to the Rashidun Caliphate, Sunnah of the prophet and Imams from both schools. I mean, if all three of those factors agree on something, then you can say it is authentic without a doubt.

From the extensive amount of work I have been able to gather I think that Ismailisam is the Jahliyah part of the Sub-Content culture mixed in with Personal Family benefit mixed in with Islam. Then, the WHOLE thing is labeled Islam.

Look In the Quran where of talks about people who followed just because there fathers follow and refused the guidance and what became of them in the end. That verse can just as well relate to point above and the points below

You should Open your eyes and genuinely examine Islam from other sources and then see what was said, who said those things/who that was narrated by and what there history/reputation is. Then see if the Aga Khan seems to be in accordance with the religion or not.

Im sorry to say, but there were much greater men in the history of Islam then the Aga Khan that are respected by practically all schools in Islam. If you only look at some of the things they have to say you will find that either they, those who were right next to the Prophet (pbuh) (and in some cases the Prophet (pbuh) himself ) were wrong or the Aga Khan is wrong.

And Just to get a starter: Even The Prophet/Imams/Major Scholars could not take away or add to the religion.Defining the religion in te sense of what is obligatory and what isent and what is forbidden and what isent, that's a a task SOLELY left to Allah (swt). We pray the way he wants us to pray. We fast the way he wants us to fast. We go on pilgrimages where he wants us the way and how he wants us to go on them. We stay away what he tells us to stay away from. Etc etc. That is a fundamental concept of Islam. However, Your Aga Khan things otherwise.

Edited by Glow

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I think I struck a nerve. Or was it seeing that picture of your "Imam" in a tux next to a blonde with wine on the table that set you at ill ease?

No, what set me at ill ease is how sickening it is that one Muslim cannot accept another as a Muslim in the Ummah; how one Muslim tries to downthrow another; how one Muslim cannot act with respect to another; and how one Muslim cannot appreciate another. That sickens me.

You know, you sound like a nice enough guy. In sha Allah you'll wake up and see how hoodwinked you are being by these impostor aristocrats living the high life off your dime.

Thanks, you don't sound all so bad yourself. Inshallah you will learn to accept others and their beliefs as they are.

PS: You know, I have a story for you. It is not often that youth get opportunaties to teach in Jamatkhana, but I was lucky to be appointed as a teacher of the primary students at my Jamatkhana. It has been a year now and I teach them from the Talim Curriculum which has been launched for decades, I was taught the same when I was young. Ironically, Friday is the day I read a story to the children and teach. Today we read book three of the pre-school set which I don't have with me, but I would like to share. The story went:

The Prophet of Allah (pbuh) used to walk everyday along a road and there was a women who would every day throw garbage out the window on him. Because the Prophet (pbuh) was humble, he did not get angry. One day, as he walked along the same path, the women did not throw garbage outside the window; in fact, she did not show up at all. Muhammad (pbuh) asked the neighbour about her who said she was very ill. Muhammad (pbuh) went to her room and she was so ill that she could not get a glass of water. The Prophet (pbuh) gave her a glass of water. She then said, "Oh Prophet of Allah (pbuh)! I ask forgiveness from you as I have been very unkind" upon which he forgave her.

In school, I took a World Religions class. This class has helped me realize the true potential of religion. You cannot follow one without respecting, or at least tolerating the others. I enjoy reading literature from all religions and sects. It has also helped me realize that you cannot judge something you don't know about. At the end of the year we had to do group projects which counted 15% of our marks. Our group decided to do the Nativity Story of Jesus Christ. My role was to speak of Jesus from other religious points of view and so I told the story of his birth from the Qur'an-e-sharif. People were amazed to find out that Jesus was a prophet in Islam and that Mary's name is mentioned more in the Qur'an then the entire Old Testament. Anyways, two days after my presentation one Christian goes up and does her presentation on Christian prosecution. I was disgusted at first - she talked about how Muslims kill Christians and she used all this evidence which was not even relevant. I controlled my anger and told her in front of the class, "I enjoyed your presentation." You should have seen how the class reacted, but then I told them this very story of Muhammad (pbuh) from the Talim books set and they understood my hidden message.

It is just how you express your voice and feelings, by which tone you use and how you show respect.

Khuda Hafiz

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Prince Visram,

I think you are a nice and friendly teenager but I am noticing that these types of discussion are hurting you and will only hurt you more. Don’t get me wrong. You definitely have good intention by being here (to understand other Islamic views/sects and be understood in return). And I am noticing that you are trying to defend the sect that you are born into as best as you can with whatever that they thought you.

However, good intentions are never enough in theological debate. You do need to have a good defense. Unfortunately, that is one area that is lacking (currently).

Most of your responses are usually in classical Ismail’s fashion.

- They are based purely on personal opinions and conjecture.

- You don’t utilize the great resources that we have – the Holy Quran, the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the teaching of his ahlul bayt(family)

- You don’t acknowledge or addressed your opponents’ views (by presenting either supporting facts or counter arguments).

Hopefully, we can have a meaningful dialogue and interesting discussion in the future.

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"Thanks for your replies but I don't like debates and feel they are not worthy of anything, especially not on the topic of religion. If you would like me to say it any other words "you win" if that is what makes you happy. I was just sharing my interpretation which I said before you do not have to accept nor agree with.

This is a quote which I stated earlier in another thread on why I don't feel debates on religion are right: "

(salam)

alight we shall not continue the debate if thats what you want. By the way the reason i posted against you because u said hajib in not wajib its just traditional and u stated that "Since no Imams (not even Ismaili Imams) have said that one must not wear a hijab, there is no problem in doing so" Which i felt it was wrong and again please look up the word "veil" u see it means to cover itself from head to breasts (bosom) . My intention was to correct you and little bit hope of winning :D thats the point of debating after all :angel:

(wasalam)

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(salam)

i have ismalie friends they say they do dua and on a specific day in summer they hold a festival maybe to celebrate? I am really interested what they do in jamat khana maybe prince can tell me?

(wasalam)

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Prince Visram,

I think you are a nice and friendly teenager but I am noticing that these types of discussion are hurting you and will only hurt you more. Don’t get me wrong. You definitely have good intention by being here (to understand other Islamic views/sects and be understood in return). And I am noticing that you are trying to defend the sect that you are born into as best as you can with whatever that they thought you.

My intention of joining Shia Chat was not to convert people to the Ismaili faith, nor to turn others away from their own. As long as someone believes in God I am happy. My intention was to bring a more pluralistic outreach to Islam and maybe some more respect along with it. If someone doesn't know, you teach - that was my intention - not to spart debate.

I don't enjoy debates as I mentioned. I like to help people's understanding of a sect rather than try to prove one is wrong or more right than the other. This is how I have grown up, as I feel telling someone wrong is not the first way to teach them. Respect comes first.

However, good intentions are never enough in theological debate. You do need to have a good defense. Unfortunately, that is one area that is lacking (currently).

Most of your responses are usually in classical Ismail’s fashion.

- They are based purely on personal opinions and conjecture.

- You don’t utilize the great resources that we have – the Holy Quran, the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the teaching of his ahlul bayt(family)

- You don’t acknowledge or addressed your opponents’ views (by presenting either supporting facts or counter arguments).

Hopefully, we can have a meaningful dialogue and interesting discussion in the future.

If my responses are of what you may consider "Ismaili fasion", so be it. I feel one should be able to interpret the Holy Qur'an, the Beloved Prophet (pbuh), and the Imams on their own with their own opinion and no one can be wrong based on their interpretations.

As for acknowledging others' views - I am sorry, but I don't have the heart to try and weaken another's faith by trying to prove them wrong.

So yes, I am not good at religious debates and I don't plan on getting better at them any time soon.

Inshallah we will have a good talk in a moral "grown-up" manner one day, where no-one will be considered wrong for interpreting their faith incorrectly. I for look forward to this day as well.

"Thanks for your replies but I don't like debates and feel they are not worthy of anything, especially not on the topic of religion. If you would like me to say it any other words "you win" if that is what makes you happy. I was just sharing my interpretation which I said before you do not have to accept nor agree with.

This is a quote which I stated earlier in another thread on why I don't feel debates on religion are right: "

(salam)

alight we shall not continue the debate if thats what you want. By the way the reason i posted against you because u said hajib in not wajib its just traditional and u stated that "Since no Imams (not even Ismaili Imams) have said that one must not wear a hijab, there is no problem in doing so" Which i felt it was wrong and again please look up the word "veil" u see it means to cover itself from head to breasts (bosom) . My intention was to correct you and little bit hope of winning :D thats the point of debating after all :angel:

(wasalam)

Thank you for respecting my view. I want you to remember you are always correct in your own opinion! :)

If thats whats happening in Jamaat Khanas, idk why they don't let me in.

That was probably not at a Jamatkhana but rather at a rented hall. These functions are not allowed to be done at a place of worship. The halls which have been rented are even open to public on these days, where museums, bookstores, arts/culture booths are set up for everyone to enjoy.

(salam)

i have ismalie friends they say they do dua and on a specific day in summer they hold a festival maybe to celebrate? I am really interested what they do in jamat khana maybe prince can tell me?

(wasalam)

Well... We will first have to understand the differences and why.

Currently today, there are 49 Ismaili Imams. At the time of the 30th Imam, Mowlana Islam Shah (as), the Imam began sending Pirs to India to teach them of the Islamic faith. The Pir he sent was Pir Sadardeen (or Sadruddin), one of the progeny (I don't know if this would be the appropriate word but like blood relation) of Imam Jafar-al-Sadiq (as), as listed in the Gulzar-e-Shams. Anyways, Imam Islam Shah (as) sent him but specified he did not want Pir Sadardeen to convert Hindus forcefully or in a bloodshed manner. So Pir Sadardeen learned the scriptures of the Hindus and went to them in a respectful way and taught them about Isalm through their own scriptures by comparing similarities. Just as the Hindus sing Bhajans, he went into Mandirs and sang his own made bhajan-like-songs which he called Ginans (literal translation = divine wisdom). In them, he used comparisons and examples between the two religions as to explain to them the adaptation of Islam. In some of them he used examples like:

- the last "Veda" (hindu scripture) to come was the Qur'an which you must follow.

- the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu is present as the Imam (in the Hindu scriptures, there were ten incarnations of Vishnu. Hindus still await the tenth one "Kalki" but in the Ginans he explained you are waiting for no-one but the Imam who is present. Kalki in Hindu literature is supposed to come back "to end the present age of darkness and destruction known as Kali Yuga".)

- the concept of "rebirth" as a form of fear, and that one after death should not cycle the rebirths but be one with Allah

- Idol worshiping is wrong

An example of using such analogies can be the following. During the nine night festival of Hindus "Navratri", Pir Shams went to a Mandir every night for the nine night festival and sang his own version of 28 ginans, rather than garbas (a garba is a Hindu song, which is sung loudly and danced to). They used to kick him out of the Mandir every night, but on the last night it is said that they fell to his feet and converted to Islam. You can read translation of these very ginans here.

Ginans were not only meant to convert Hindus but also to teach Islam. For example, a few verses from one ginan by Pir Sadardeen:

ejee allaah ek khasam sabukaa, duneeyaa usakee saaree

aveechal naam khudaava(n)d bhanneeye

or sab meetteeyaa keree baajee

illaahee bhed ta(n)tav naam leeje

aapnne jeevdde kee chee(n)taa re momanbhaai keeje

aapne jeevddeku(n) dozakh na deeje..illaahee.................

Allah is the only Lord of everything, the entire world is His(or under His command).

Understand the name(attribute) of the Lord as being eternal and everlasting and

the rest is all perishable and illusory. Extract(or obtain) the Divine mysteries from

the essence of His name(by constant remembrance and contemplation).

O brother momins, be mindful about the condition of your souls and do not

condemn your souls to hell.

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam

musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee.

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir

(infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is

enlightened by Holy Qur'aan.

ejee jumale feerashte sujeedaa keeyaa, aadam sujeedaa leeyaa

ajaajeele farmaan na maanyaa, so lekhaa radaj keeyaa

......illaahee.......

All the angels prostrated and Adam accepted their prostrations. Azazil did not obey

or follow the Farmaans and therefore annulled all his earnings completely.

ejee addhaar laakh baras kee umaro, usaku(n) khaalak deeyaa

ana(n)t elam ne ana(n)t dolat, so lekhaa radaj keeyaa

....illaahee.........

The Creator gave him a very long life spanning 1.8 million years and gave him endless

knowledge and countless wealth. These earnings he gave up(by not prostrating).

ejee ajaajeel feerashtaa buzarag kaheeye

ane budheeva(n)t kaheeye tesaa

chhatrees karodd keetaabaa paddeeyaa

pann bheetar bhed na paayaa..............illaahee............

The angel Azazil was regarded as very honoured and was also considered to be very intelligent.

He read and studied thirty six crore books but did not realise the essence of the interior (soul, heart).

ejee shaahalee zulfeekaare duneeyaa samjaayaa

elam je na patee-annaa

savaa laakh jab raajaa maaryaa

mahamad kalamaa keeyaa..................illaahee............

Shaah Aly Zulfikaar explained to the world but there were those who did not have

conviction in knowledge. When the king slayed one hundred twenty five thousand

of them, Muhammed established the 'kalimah'.

ejee gaafal thaa taaku(n) muneevar keeyaa

haazar shaah deekhlaayaa

shaah dekhee je daave paddeeyaa

so neeshtte dozakhe sadhaareeyaa............illaahee........

(Muhammed) made believers of those who had become ignorant and had strayed away.

He showed then the present Imaam. Those who having seen the Imaam, turned against

Him, have verily gone to hell.

ejee bhrahmaa veeshnav maheshar bhanneeye

kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam

je jeev farmaane chaalyaa

so pahotaa bahesht makaan..............illaahee.............

Know the Creator, Ruler and the Destroyer(of evil). In the present age Lord Vishnu

is the Imaam. Those souls that have followed the Farmaans, have reached the

abode of paradise.

ejee aal alee islaamshaah raajaa, allaah ehee imaam

peer bhanne sadardeen kahet kabeerdeen

mere momaneku(n) bahesht makaan..........illaahee...........

Mawlana Islamshaah who is the progeny of Aly is the king. Allah is indeed within the Imaam (i.e. his noor).

This is taught by Peer Sadardeen and is stated (confirmed) by Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen

who says: "My momins will have an abode in paradise" (if they follow my teachings).

Another example:

ejee gat maa(n)he meelo neeto neet, paheleeye maano shareeyat

tareekat or hakeekat, maarfat me(n) manku(n) maar

tum chet man meraa...........................................7

Meet in the congregation(of Jamaatkhaanaa) everyday. As a first principle believe in the 'Sharia'(aim, principles and doctrines of faith). Then follow the way or the method(Tariqah) and then internalise the inner mysteries(truths)(Haqiqah) as attained on the Path. Attaining the gnosis(Maarifah, ultimate knowledge and certainty) hence, kill or destroy your (lower)mind including it's desires.

Anyways, so by singing these hymns, Pirs converted Hindus to Islam.

--------------

I will continue this post later, my eyes are tired and I need a break! Iv'e been on the computer for like almost four hours haha.. anyways I'll come back from Jamatkhana and finish my post, until then you can read it so you have some background knowledge.

Also, to everyone who has read this so far, please only react in a positive way or don't bother responding. I will not reply to those who are tormenting or wasting my time. Thanks!

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(salam)

i have ismalie friends they say they do dua and on a specific day in summer they hold a festival maybe to celebrate? I am really interested what they do in jamat khana maybe prince can tell me?

(wasalam)

CONTINUATION OF ABOVE POST

Urrrrgghh... I had so much written and I went to hit Shift+R to make a capital r but I accidently pressed ctrl+r and now all of it is gone... Oh well I guess I’ll start over.. :(

Okay so where was I.. Oh yes, so the Muslims which Pir Sadardeen converted later came to be known as “Khojas” derived from the Arabic word Khawaja.

I have forgotten to write the time period this has all most likely taken place in: it was around 650 AH so probably around 1350 CE. So for all you English majors, you can say approximately 200 years before Shakespeare.. haha... Also this was all taking place in Sindh area.

So, now with a bunch of Muslims in a place where Islam was not predominant, they needed to learn the faith in their own language and own heritage/culture to remain strong/believing in their faith of Islam. Pir Sadardeen now opened the first Jamatkhana there, so that the newly converted Muslims could visit and participate in prayer.

Now, what/how should they pray? The Pirs taught them how to pray in a way of their old heritage to help them seem accepted into the faith of Islam. He taught them a prayer in their own language and called it the Du’a. This original Du’a was over fifteen minutes in length, having verses of the Qur’an translated to the Sindhi language, as well as a list of the Imams and Pirs until that date. He told them this is the Salah for you and is mandatory among you. By reciting this Du’a they understood Islam better by understanding who Allah is and the Imam and appreciating them both.

The newly converts learned the Kalima, “la ilaha ill-Allah, Muhammad-an rasulullah, Aliyyun Amirul Mominin Aliyyullah” (There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, Ali the Commander of the believers is from God) and recited it after every Du’a.

What else would they do in Jamatkhana? The Pir would come and sing ginans, and more people would come to listen to his teachings. The ginans continued even after the passing of the Pir so that the teachings they had would stay revived.

And What else? Zikr. Tasbihs chanting Ya Ali Ya Muhammad, Allah, Subhanallah, Alhamdulillah, Shukranallah, etc. were chanted.

SO, for the question many people seek an answer to. Why and how did this new Ismaili sect fall into secrecy? After the flourish of so many Jamatkhanas, Hindus became mad at these intruders. Other Muslims also began to move in and saw the way these people were praying to Allah and showing affection for the Imam of the Time and began to persecute them. Slowly, the Ismailis fell into secrecy, practicing their faith in secret so they wouldn’t cause any “problems”. This lasted for several hundred years, even until more recently when Ismailis were being persecuted in Pakistan with the Anti-Ismaili campaign (I think around 2004). Of course I am not saying other Muslims are bad in any way, they were obviously extremists who took on such roles.

Back to the original question, what do Ismailis do in Jamatkhanas now?

The original Du’a was recomposed more recently, using rearranged parts of the original Du’a but is now, unlike before, only to be recited in Arabic. Before it could be recited in one’s mother tounge, but now it is to be recited only in Arabic.

So we recite the Arabic Du’a, sing the ginans, recite zikr, and listen to the Farmans of the Imams.

I hope these posts have cleared most of the questions people may have had. All this information is available, but hard to get in one piece.

I have basically just elaborated on the end of page two and full page three of this article.

If anyone has any questions or comments, please only share them if they are (a.) for the sake of learning and not criticizing, and (b.) respectful. If they are in any other format, do not expect to here an answer from me.

Hope I have answered your question (and many others)!

:)

Ya Ali Madad

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

EDIT: Oh yah, and if you want to read more of the teachings of the Pirs, you can click on my profile and the "About Me" page. The Ginan tradition is very close to my heart, and you don't have to be Ismaili to enjoy the Pirs teachings either!

Edited by princevisram

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salam.gifbismillah.gif

"My religion is right! No my religion is right! No the way I practice is right! No the way I do is correct!" --> We sound like little kids.

The fact is, I am praying to the same God you and everyone else is.

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

you pray to Allah

we pray to Allah

but

doesnt mean your gonna enter heaven

i mean

the christians

some of them pray to one god but say he has a son

jews

pray to Allah

its the same god

but guess what there rejecting some key thing

and you are to

you reject our imams and you have the lack of knowledge

i ask you why are you ismaili

because your parents are one?

because its easy?

our life isnt suppose to be easy

our life is sacrificed for ONE god

everything he says

we have to do

anything his prophet or imams says we gotta be obediant

becuase thats an order from Allah

Khuda Hafiz

Allah Hafiz

Fee amanillah

Salaam alaykum :)

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you pray to Allah

we pray to Allah

but

doesnt mean your gonna enter heaven

i mean

the christians

some of them pray to one god but say he has a son

jews

pray to Allah

its the same god

but guess what there rejecting some key thing

and you are to

you reject our imams and you have the lack of knowledge

i ask you why are you ismaili

because your parents are one?

because its easy?

our life isnt suppose to be easy

our life is sacrificed for ONE god

everything he says

we have to do

anything his prophet or imams says we gotta be obediant

becuase thats an order from Allah

Khuda Hafiz

Allah Hafiz

Fee amanillah

Salaam alaykum :)

I don't pray to go to Hevan. I pray so that I can find my inner self. I am not Ismaili because my parents are one, or because its "easy". I am Ismaili because I want to be one, and I have found a sense of Truth in it. This is a personal opinion, so if you start debate I will not bother replying as debates are not my cup of tea... :)

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

[Qur'an 5:69]

So, to be among those who will not grieve, one has to:

1. Believe in Allah

2. The Last Day (Qiyamat)

3. Work Righteousness

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

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I don't pray to go to Hevan. I pray so that I can find my inner self. I am not Ismaili because my parents are one, or because its "easy". I am Ismaili because I want to be one, and I have found a sense of Truth in it. This is a personal opinion, so if you start debate I will not bother replying as debates are not my cup of tea... :)

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

[Qur'an 5:69]

So, to be among those who will not grieve, one has to:

1. Believe in Allah

2. The Last Day (Qiyamat)

3. Work Righteousness

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

Surely the Quran is a source of guidance, yet misguidance

Misguidance for those who interpret its words incorrectly

May Allah protect us all.

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Surely the Quran is a source of guidance, yet misguidance

Misguidance for those who interpret its words incorrectly

May Allah protect us all.

Ameen.

"This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur'an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word. Happily, as a result, the Holy Book continues to guide and illuminate the thought and conduct of Muslims belonging to different communities of interpretation and spiritual affiliation, from century to century, in diverse cultural environments."

- Shah Karim Al-Husayni Hazar Imam (Speech: Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions, The Ismaili Centre, London, October 19, 2003)

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

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(salam)

With all due respect to you and what you are following, is it ok to say that any human who is not a masoom (infallible) can interpret the Holy Quran the way he wants and then change the Islamic laws as per his whims and fancies? (though the Prophets and Imams (as) themselves cannot change it)

No you cannot, else there will be no difference between us and the christians/jews. Because they are the most deviant ones who brought changes in Allahs book (Tauraet, Injeel, Zubur) in what was revealed to them, rejected the Prophets words sent by Allah and also the last prophet (pbuh).

If you say that you dont like religious debates then that means you dont want to find out what is haq (right) and what is baatil(wrong), the same what the sunnis say, "do no dig into the past as it will create fitna". But that will be escapism from real facts. One cannot just assume that what I have been following or seeing is "truth", else there would have been no Iblis to misguide us and only thinking that Allah is All-merciful if we err.

Yes we all err and Inshallah will be forgiven but thats not all, Allah has also told us to find the truth and not just sit pretty thinking there is nothing wrong in what I am seeing and following. We cannot differentiate between right and wrong unless they are separated.

You can always have an healthy religious debate, and no you should also not think that it will hurt anyone and what they believe in. Because what you are actually doing is "Amarbil maarof wa nahi anil munkar" which is what Hazrat Imam Hussain (as) told he was doing in his(as) sermon before leaving for Karbala. If it was not the case then he (as) would have thought the same about yazeed (la) and let him(yazeed) change Islam as per his whims and fancies. As you might be knowing by now what harm yazeed (la) was doing to Islam and what would have happened if Imam Hussain(as) kept silent and karbala did not occur

All these things have to be sincerely contemplated and thought over to know what is our role, since its not just a fairy tale to be listened to but rather to implement it in our actions

Remember that whatever we would be accounted for on the day of judgement, there would be no excuse as you will be told that everything was there for your guidance in the world (genuine/authentic books, scholars, etc) but still you did not avail them and went astray

(wasalam)

Edited by Imtiaz_Hyder

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This is an interesting thread on two major branches of shia of Imam Ali (as).

.

.

.

Debates, in the matter of religion, rarely, if ever lead to the truth especially in very similar doctrines. ... quite the opposite they produce bitterness.

Allah (SWT) is LATEEF. The truth is also LATEEF. When people debate, first their postures harden. The sensitivity to detect truth gets blunted, and the end is failure.

Detection of LATEEF truth requires sensitivity. If pure LOGIC cannot prove the existence of God, how can a debate prove anything in this domain ?

This young man is intelligent.

As a proof of debate being useless, just have a look at the number of times my membership been deleted in this forum for debating. The last time was to give reply to how many peoples have the sufis converted to Islam and showing a link to the demolition of the sufi center in iran.

For a number of questions raised in these threads, to this young man, there are answers that sertainly exist, but the debating manner with which they would then be presented, would crush the delicate egos under their weight and result in account deletion ... essentially a waste of time as no one learns in an atmosphere of debate.

In my case, I benefit on certain aspects from sufi teachings, in another aspect from ithna-ashariya teachings and so on. The student learns from teachers of various temperaments and schools of thoughts of various temperaments, possible in a pluralistic atmosphere so individuals make their judgements.

Imam Hussein (as) would not bayat on yazeed but he did opt to return if they let him ... meaning he continue his teachings (in a pluralist live and let live setup with bad governance even) as his later descendent Imams did.

The closer relatives proved more brutal and intolerant than the ommayads. There is a hint of a very deep lesson in this !!!

Edited by neutralsage

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(salam)

Imam Hussein (as) would not bayat on yazeed but he did opt to return if they let him ... meaning he continue his teachings (in a pluralist live and let live setup with bad governance even) as his later descendent Imams did.

But that is not the point of discussion here, its about the Islamic laws being changed by such fasiq as yazeed (la) to satisfy their vested interests and that an ordinary person cannot interpret Holy Quran as per his wishes.

I was only giving an example of how Hazrat Imam Hussain (as) was doing "Amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar", not doing baya and raising voice against the tyrant

Do not think that live and let live setup means to silently watch the things happening with regards to Islam and say nothing against the oppressor or the one who is bringing innovation in the religion

(wasalam)

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I don't pray to go to Hevan. I pray so that I can find my inner self. I am not Ismaili because my parents are one, or because its "easy". I am Ismaili because I want to be one, and I have found a sense of Truth in it. This is a personal opinion, so if you start debate I will not bother replying as debates are not my cup of tea... :)

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

[Qur'an 5:69]

So, to be among those who will not grieve, one has to:

1. Believe in Allah

2. The Last Day (Qiyamat)

3. Work Righteousness

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

Citing and acting on one verse from the Quran is not enough. What about 6000 other verses? In fact, why don't we start with Surah al-Mu'minoon.

[shakir 23:1] Successful indeed are the believers,

[shakir 23:2] Who are humble in their prayers,

[shakir 23:3] And who keep aloof from what is vain,

[shakir 23:4] And who are givers of poor-rate,

[shakir 23:5] And who guard their private parts,

[shakir 23:6] Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable,

[shakir 23:7] But whoever seeks to go beyond that, these are they that exceed the limits;

[shakir 23:8] And those who are keepers of their trusts and their covenant,

[shakir 23:9] And those who keep a guard on their prayers;

This are only the first 9 verse of the Surah. You need to follow every single verse in the Quran which includes praying, fasting, guarding yourself from fornification/adultery, no drinking, no eating haram..etc.

So having good thoughts is not enough. You need to act in accordance to what have been specified in the Holy Book.

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Ameen.

"This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur'an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word. Happily, as a result, the Holy Book continues to guide and illuminate the thought and conduct of Muslims belonging to different communities of interpretation and spiritual affiliation, from century to century, in diverse cultural environments."

- Shah Karim Al-Husayni Hazar Imam (Speech: Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions, The Ismaili Centre, London, October 19, 2003)

Khuda Hafiz

(wasalam)

That is completely opposite to what the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the true Imams (as) taught. It might sound like a nice little sound bite to show off how open and "modern" your religion is, but it's totally in contradiction to what Islam actually teaches and demonstrates the level of knowledge this man has.

See these hadith for instance (take from Tafsir al-`Ayyashi), these are Imams you claim to believe in:

Ýíãä ÝÓÑ ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÑÃíå

Regarding someone who explains (does tafsir) of the Quran by his opinion (bi-ra’yihi, his view)

1 Ü Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ Úä ÇÈì ÌÚÝÑ (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: áíÓ ÔÆ ÃÈÚÏ ãä ÚÞæá ÇáÑÌÇá ãä ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáÞÑÂä¡ Çä ÇáÂíÉ íäÒá ÇæáåÇ Ýí ÔÆ æÃæÓØåÇ Ýí ÔÆ¡ æÂÎÑåÇ Ýí ÔÆ¡ Ëã ÞÇá: (ÇäãÇ íÑíÏ Çááå áíÐåÈ Úäßã ÇáÑÌÓ Çåá ÇáÈíÊ æíØåÑßã ÊØåíÑÇ) ãä ãíáÇÏ ÇáÌÇåáíÉ.

1 – From Zurara from Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: There is nothing further from the intellects of men than the tafsir of the Quran. Verily an ayat is revealed whose beginning is about something, its middle is about something (else), and its end is about something (else). Then he said “Verily Allah only wants to remove uncleanliness from you, People of the House, and purify you with a purification” from the birth of Jahiliyya.

2 Ü Úä åÔÇã Èä ÓÇáã Úä ÃÈì ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: ãä ÝÓÑ ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÑÃíå ÝÇÕÇÈ áã íæÌÑ¡ æÇä ÇÎØà ßÇä ÇËãå Úáíå.

2 – Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Whoever explains (does tafsir) of the Quran by his opinion is not rewarded, and if he makes a mistake then his sin is upon him.

3 Ü Úä ÇÈí ÇáÌÇÑæÏ ÞÇá: ÞÇá ÃÈæÌÚÝÑ (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ãÇ ÚáãÊã ÝÞæáæÇ æãÇ áã ÊÚáãæÇ ÝÞæáæÇ Çááå ÃÚáã¡ ÝÇä ÇáÑÌá íäÒá ÈÇáÇíÉ ÝíÎÑ ÈåÇ ÃÈÚÏ ãÇ Èíä ÇáÓãÇÁ æÇáÇÑÖ.

3 – From Abu ‘l-Jarud. He said: Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: What you have known then say, and what you have not known then say Allah knows best. For verily (or, if) the man is afflicted by the ayat then he would fall down by it further than what is between Heaven and Earth.

4 Ü Úä ÇÈì ÈÕíÑ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: ãä ÝÓÑ ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÑÃíå Çä ÃÕÇÈ áã íæÌÑ æ Ãä ÃÎØà Ýåæ ÃÈÚÏ ãä ÇáÓãÇÁ.

4 – From Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Whoever explains the Quran by his opinion, then if he hits the mark he is not rewarded, and if he makes a mistake then he is further than Heaven.

5 Ü Úä ÚÈÏÇáÑÍãä Èä ÇáÍÌÇÌ ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) íÞæá: áíÓ ÇÈÚÏ ãäÚÞæá ÇáÑÌÇá ãä ÇáÞÑÂä .

5 – And from `Abd ar-Rahman b. al-Hajjaj. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã saying: There is nothing further from the intellects of men than the Quran.

6 Ü Úä ÚãÇÑ Èä ãæÓì Úä ÃÈì ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: ÓÆá Úä ÇáÍßæãÉ ÞÇá: ãä Íßã ÈÑÃíå Èíä ÇËäíä ÝÞÏ ßÝÑ¡ æãä ÝÓÑ Ü ÈÑÃíå Ü ÂíÉ ãä ßÊÇÈ Çááå ÝÞÏ ßÝÑ .

6 – From `Ammar b. Musa from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: He was asked about judgment. He said: Whoever judges by his opinion between two (people) then he has committed kufr. And whoever explains – by his opinion – an ayat from the book of Allah then he has committed kufr.

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Err - is it just me, or :unsure: ..

All those ahadith talk about tafsir bi ra'y. The quote talks about someone erring, whilst sincerely trying to understand..

Two vastly different propositions (very badihi, but I can break 'em down for you if you really want). Hence, the consequences mentioned in the former are not applicable to the latter..

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