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#1 Malkaiva

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 12:07 AM

Salam,
Yesterday I found a website called [Edited Out] and read some of their challenges against Shias. I will request the scholars including the administrators to answer them as soon as possible. PLEASE DO RESPOND....

Edited by inshaAllah, 20 January 2011 - 07:17 AM.


#2 Al-Afasy

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 12:34 AM

Salam,
Yesterday I found a website called [Edited Out] and read some of their challenges against Shias. I will request the scholars including the administrators to answer them as soon as possible. PLEASE DO RESPOND....


They cite this hadith on their site and I think it's good for the Shias to know the reality of our religion:

From Abi Abdillah (as), He said: the people are split up into 3 groups. The teacher, the learners, and the scum. We (Ahlul Bayt) are the teachers, our Shia are the learners and the rest of the people are scum.

Source: Al Kafi Volume 1 Page 34 Hadith 4
Grading: Saheeh alal Thahir ( Saheeh from what is apparent)

Shocking eh? Lots more where that came from...... Anyways brother most of the time they take stuff off Nader's blog which in my opinion isn't wrong at all but the main point is they have a nasty habit of copy-pasting off other sites.

Edited by inshaAllah, 20 January 2011 - 07:17 AM.


#3 Malkaiva

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 12:59 AM

They cite this hadith on their site and I think it's good for the Shias to know the reality of our religion:

From Abi Abdillah (as), He said: the people are split up into 3 groups. The teacher, the learners, and the scum. We (Ahlul Bayt) are the teachers, our Shia are the learners and the rest of the people are scum.

Source: Al Kafi Volume 1 Page 34 Hadith 4
Grading: Saheeh alal Thahir ( Saheeh from what is apparent)

Shocking eh? Lots more where that came from...... Anyways brother most of the time they take stuff off Nader's blog which in my opinion isn't wrong at all but the main point is they have a nasty habit of copy-pasting off other sites.


So how should we react against those threads?? They are needed to be answered....

#4 Al-Afasy

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 01:11 AM

So how should we react against those threads?? They are needed to be answered....

Ignore them, it's just them quoting weak sources of Shia ahadith. Though, when you see a Saheeh narration like the one I posted, take it as ammo against the Batri/ Muqasir "Shias" who try to deceive people into believing that Shias and the Mukhalifeen are very similar. The truth is brother, we are not!

Edited by haidar al karrar, 13 January 2011 - 01:12 AM.


#5 pakistanyar

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 01:31 AM

Theres a guy named wasil, i dnt think he has a good rep but u can go to his forum, he responds to most of the gift to shia stuff. His forum is called ********.com

#6 Dhulfikar

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 04:06 AM

From Abi Abdillah (as), He said: the people are split up into 3 groups. The teacher, the learners, and the scum. We (Ahlul Bayt) are the teachers, our Shia are the learners and the rest of the people are scum.

Source: Al Kafi Volume 1 Page 34 Hadith 4
Grading: Saheeh alal Thahir ( Saheeh from what is apparent)

Yeah very convincing hadith.

Edited by Zufa, 13 January 2011 - 04:09 AM.


#7 Saved

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 08:31 AM

There are many answers to that website on wilayat.net.

Tahrif: Blocking Efendi's Attempt to Escape!

The Comic Wahabi Argument about the Birth of Imam Mahdi (as) http://wilayat.net/i...-of-Imam-Mahdi-(as)&catid=74:04-Imam-Mahdi-(as)

Hadith al-Thaqalayn: Refuting Mahmud al-Misri's Comic Relief (Part 1) http://wilayat.net/i...-Relief-(Part-1)&catid=94:Imam-Ali-bin-Abi-Talib-(as)-Project&Itemid=101

Hadith al-Thaqalayn: Refuting Mahmud al-Misri's Comic Relief (Part 2) http://wilayat.net/i...-Relief-(Part-2)&catid=94:Imam-Ali-bin-Abi-Talib-(as)-Project&Itemid=101

Hadith al-Thaqalayn: Refuting Mahmud al-Misri's Comic Relief (Part 3) http://wilayat.net/i...-Relief-(Part-3)&catid=94:Imam-Ali-bin-Abi-Talib-(as)-Project&Itemid=101

Aisha Did Matam!!!

Edited by Saved, 13 January 2011 - 09:28 AM.


#8 Saved

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 09:25 AM

Ibn Abbas' Tahrif Beliefs: A Serious Challenge to Efendi al-Nasibi!!!

Verse of al-Wilayah: Answers to Efendi al-Nasibi (Part 1) http://www.wilayat.n...ject&Itemid=101

Verse of al-Wilayah: Answers to Efendi al-Nasibi (Part 2) http://www.wilayat.n...ject&Itemid=101

Verse of al-Wilayah: Answers to Efendi al-Nasibi (Part 3) http://www.wilayat.n...ject&Itemid=101

Malik and Abu Hanifah Reject 113 Verses of the Qur'an: Efendi Again in Trouble!!!

Efendi al-Nasibi's Intellectual SUICIDE!!!

Efendi al-Nasibi's Intellectual SUICIDE!!! (Part 2)

Is It True That the Prophet Musa Ran NAKED in the Shi'a Sources?!

Salafi Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin: "The Sun Revolves Around the Earth"!!!!

Tahrif: Trapping Efendi al-Nasibi in His Own Cage!!!

"Whoever separates from Ali has separated from me": ANSWER TO EFENDI AL-NASIBI http://wilayat.net/i...84:04-Imam-Ali-(as)

Destroying Efendi al-Nasibi’s Attack Upon the Verse of Muwaddah (Part 1)

Destroying Efendi al-Nasibi’s Attack Upon the Verse of Muwaddah (Part 2)

Exposing M Moin's False Attempt to Defend Ibn Kathir and the Sahabah (Part 1)

Exposing M Moin's False Attempt to Defend Ibn Kathir and the Sahabah (Part 2)

There are many more on wilayat.net.

Edited by Saved, 13 January 2011 - 09:17 AM.


#9 Saved

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 09:54 AM

Moreover, my brother and teacher, "slave of ahlubait", was forced to translate the whole of Khasais Ali into English, with analyses of the authenticity of the Hadiths, when Efendi did not cease to UNJUSTLY weaken Hadiths in favour of Imam Ali (as). You can read his English translation of Khasais Ali, with the authenticity analyses here http://www.wilayat.n...id=92&Itemid=94

The project was strictly in response to Efendi.

Bro "slave of ahlubait" has also completed volume 1 of his translation of the pro-Ahl al-Bayt (as) Hadiths in Musnad Ahmad. You can find that too here http://www.wilayat.n...ect&Itemid=102. He has provided the authenticity analyses of these Hadiths too. Again, this was to frustrate Efendi's Nasibi efforts. He is working on Volume 2 as I write.

Bro wasil has also completely DESTROYED him in SEVERAL articles here http://shiachat.foru...-fortress-blog.

The bro has really, REAAALLY destroyed the Nasibi scum.

You can find more refutations by the same bro here http://shiachat.foru...fis-and-nawasib

#10 ur wellwisher

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 10:35 AM

just saw an article "Hadith al-Thaqalayn: Refuting Mahmud al-Misri's Comic Relief (Part 1)" , just wished to share some thoughts on this:

http://www.ahlalhdee...73387#post73387

#11 A true Sunni

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 11:33 AM

Probably just the Wahhabi equivalent of Azdari4Imam. Wonder if they funded by the same people !!!!!

#12 Logic

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 11:56 AM

just saw an article "Hadith al-Thaqalayn: Refuting Mahmud al-Misri's Comic Relief (Part 1)" , just wished to share some thoughts on this:

http://www.ahlalhdee...73387#post73387

Something i want to point out.

So since wives of prophet(Saw) are also not eligible to receive sadaqa, they too are from “itratu ahlebayti”.

Moreover, a wife of prophet(Saw) who resides with prophet(Saw) knows better rulings regarding their own family than outsider .. this is common sense. And she knows better that what is forbidden for her and what is not forbidden for her instead of an outsider knowing that what is forbidden for her and what is not.

This is exactly what we say about Fatima (as) and Fadak In refutation to Abu Bakr testimony. I hope you see Salafs see no issue in accepting our version considering the logic presented above.

#13 ur wellwisher

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 12:21 PM

This is exactly what we say about Fatima (as) and Fadak In refutation to Abu Bakr testimony. I hope you see Salafs see no issue in accepting our version considering the logic presented above.

no my dear you are comparing apples with bananas, because what hz zaid(ra) said was his own view, he didnt say I heard prophet(Saw) saying that.. Where as what hz abubakar(ra) said was not his own mawqoof rather he said what prophet(Saw) said him. So there is a BIG difference between the two.

#14 haideriam

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 12:53 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)

no my dear you are comparing apples with bananas, because what hz zaid(ra) said was his own view, he didnt say I heard prophet(Saw) saying that.. Where as what hz abubakar(ra) said was not his own mawqoof rather he said what prophet(Saw) said him. So there is a BIG difference between the two.


poor comparison , but there goes a star

Something i want to point out.


This is exactly what we say about Fatima (as) and Fadak In refutation to Abu Bakr testimony. I hope you see Salafs see no issue in accepting our version considering the logic presented above.


akhi logic
there is a difference though
the holy quran supports bibi fatima(sa) viv a viv ambias'(as) verses
whereas the holy quran does not support the wives' conjecture, viv a viz surah tahrim

all in all 2012's example and comparison is devoid of understanding, nothing new though

(wasalam)

#15 Logic

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 01:01 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)
akhi logic
there is a difference though
the holy quran supports bibi fatima(sa) viv a viv ambias'(as) verses
whereas the holy quran does not support the wives' conjecture, viv a viz surah tahrim

all in all 2012's example and comparison is devoid of understanding, nothing new though

(wasalam)

WS
I understand the Shia position and even Bibi Fatima (as) position as well. I was simply pointing out the Salafi logical approach.

Wellwisher:

no my dear you are comparing apples with bananas, because what hz zaid(ra) said was his own view, he didnt say I heard prophet(Saw) saying that.. Where as what hz abubakar(ra) said was not his own mawqoof rather he said what prophet(Saw) said him. So there is a BIG difference between the two.

I am not using Zaid hadith at all. I basically used whatever the Salaf said while substituting the word "wives" for "daughter". So in essence i am using the very same reasoning he is applying. Hope that's clear to you now.

#16 ur wellwisher

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 04:11 PM

Wellwisher:
I am not using Zaid hadith at all. I basically used whatever the Salaf said while substituting the word "wives" for "daughter". So in essence i am using the very same reasoning he is applying. Hope that's clear to you now.

Well if i didnt get what you ment then im sorry. But if you say that since we are rejecting the view of hz zaid(ra) and accepting the view of hz ayesha(ra) since she lived with prophet(Saw).. thus the view of hz fatima(ra) holds more weight than the view of hz abubakar(ra) then you completely misunderstood the issue my brother, because it was not just the view of hz abubakar(ra), but it was what prophet(Saw) had said.

#17 A true Sunni

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 06:22 PM

Well if i didnt get what you ment then im sorry. But if you say that since we are rejecting the view of hz zaid(ra) and accepting the view of hz ayesha(ra) since she lived with prophet(Saw).. thus the view of hz fatima(ra) holds more weight than the view of hz abubakar(ra) then you completely misunderstood the issue my brother, because it was not just the view of hz abubakar(ra), but it was what prophet(Saw) had said.


I think the point the brother makes is that it is possible Hz Abu Bakr (ra) misunderstood what the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) had said and misapplied the ruling since he was open to being corrected by the application of 2 adult male witnesses.

In the circumstances that he was open to be being corrected it is reasonable to expect that a daughter should know her rights vis a vis her father better rather then a friend. Considering the status of the Father and Daughter.

Edited by A true Sunni, 17 January 2011 - 06:23 PM.


#18 Logic

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 07:15 PM

it is reasonable to expect that a daughter should know her rights vis a vis her father better rather then a friend. Considering the status of the Father and Daughter.

Thank you for explaining it.

This was the gist of my point based on the salaf approach whom i quoted said "Moreover, a wife of prophet(Saw) who resides with prophet(Saw) knows better rulings regarding their own family than outsider .. this is common sense"

Basically if we replace the word "Wife" with "Daughter" you will come to the Shia stance of Fatima (as) and her asking for Fadak. So why is this common sense being neglected when it comes to Fatima (as) Haq?

#19 ur wellwisher

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 12:53 AM

I think the point the brother makes is that it is possible Hz Abu Bakr (ra) misunderstood what the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) had said and misapplied the ruling since he was open to being corrected by the application of 2 adult male witnesses.

In the circumstances that he was open to be being corrected it is reasonable to expect that a daughter should know her rights vis a vis her father better rather then a friend. Considering the status of the Father and Daughter.

This can only be discussed further if its proved from authentic narration that fadak was gifted to hz fatima(ra) and there is no authentic narration for this in sunni books..

#20 Logic

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 11:49 AM

This can only be discussed further if its proved from authentic narration that fadak was gifted to hz fatima(ra) and there is no authentic narration for this in sunni books..

I dont think you are getting my point.. The link you provided had a certain quote by an individual.

Moreover, a wife of prophet(Saw) who resides with prophet(Saw) knows better rulings regarding their own family than outsider .. this is common sense.


1) All you have to do is replace the above "wife" word with daughter.
2) He is pointing out Aisha merits. Aisha had 10 years with the Prophet (Saww) divided between all his (saww) wives. Leaving her with a very small portion. Even if we assume 2-3 years then its still not comparable to Fatima (as)


Hence using common sense we agree

The Daughter of the Prophet (Saww) who resides with Prophet (Saww) knows better ruling regarding their family then outsider... This is common sense.


Which brings us to another common sense agreement - > Fatima (as) knew about her right for Fadak. Period

#21 ur wellwisher

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 02:45 PM

I dont think you are getting my point.. The link you provided had a certain quote by an individual.

I too think the same , that you are not getting what im saying.

1) All you have to do is replace the above "wife" word with daughter.
2) He is pointing out Aisha merits. Aisha had 10 years with the Prophet (Saww) divided between all his (saww) wives. Leaving her with a very small portion. Even if we assume 2-3 years then its still not comparable to Fatima (as)

my brother you didnt get the gist of the issue, Let me explain you what the author meant. These are two different views. One is mawqoof one is marfu..

in the link the view of hz zaid(ra) and hz ayesha(ra) was mawqoof, so in that situation what the author said applies, thus hz ayesha(ra)'s mawqoof will be given preference.

However in the case of hz fatima(ra) here what hz abubakar(ra) said was not his mawqoof but it was marfu narration of prophet(Saw).. And what hz fatima(ra) said was her own mawqoof, SHE DIDNT say in any authentic narration(from the books of sunnis) that prophet(Saw) said that ambiya leave inheritance. Or that prophet(Saw) left inheritance. So in this case the above rule will not be applied since, what hz abubakar(ra) said was a marfu narration of prophet(Saw).

I hope its clear now.

#22 Logic

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 03:41 PM

I too think the same , that you are not getting what im saying.

my brother you didnt get the gist of the issue, Let me explain you what the author meant. These are two different views. One is mawqoof one is marfu..

in the link the view of hz zaid(ra) and hz ayesha(ra) was mawqoof, so in that situation what the author said applies, thus hz ayesha(ra)'s mawqoof will be given preference.

However in the case of hz fatima(ra) here what hz abubakar(ra) said was not his mawqoof but it was marfu narration of prophet(Saw).. And what hz fatima(ra) said was her own mawqoof, SHE DIDNT say in any authentic narration(from the books of sunnis) that prophet(Saw) said that ambiya leave inheritance. Or that prophet(Saw) left inheritance. So in this case the above rule will not be applied since, what hz abubakar(ra) said was a marfu narration of prophet(Saw).

I hope its clear now.

I do get the gist of the article but i am not in interested in discussing that issue instead i was pointing out the hypocrisy used by internet salaf polemics. Common sense is applied universally instead of just reserving it for the darlings.

I really have no desire to even discuss the issue of Fadak on this thread either cause it will be derailing the thread.

Abu Bakr hears a hadith (in pvt) its called Marfu.
Fatima (as) raised by the Prophet (saww) says something and its consider Mawqoof.


Brother i assure you with complete confidence. If you start using common sense in matters of Islam then Ahlesunnah or even Salafs have no chance against Shiaism.

#23 A true Sunni

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 11:05 PM

This can only be discussed further if its proved from authentic narration that fadak was gifted to hz fatima(ra) and there is no authentic narration for this in sunni books..


Forgive me if I am wrong I am not up to date to this fadak issue. my understanding is that in the authentic books it is written that
Hz Fatima (as) claimed fadak from Hz Abu Bakr (ra).
He refused it on the grounds that prophets leave no heirs/inheritence
However he did say he would reconsider it if 2 adult male witnesses could give evidence that Fadak was given.
2 adult male witnesses could not be found and therefore he ruled against it and deposited Fadak in bait ul mal.
Further hadith going on to say that Hz Fatima (as) got very angry with Hz Abu bakr (ra).

So the point being made is yes there is no authentic narration that fadak was gifted otherwise we wouldnt be having this convo.
However there are narrations that the issue of Fadak was raised and rulings were made.

The point being made is that Hz Abu Bakr (ra) was prepared to admit he was wrong about the inheritence hadith if 2 male witnesses were found.
Since he was prepared to admit he was wrong it brings into question does a daughter know her fathers will/wishes better or a sahaba
This question wouldnt have occurred except he was willing to admit he was wrong about the inheritence hadith

Edited by A true Sunni, 19 January 2011 - 11:07 PM.


#24 ur wellwisher

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 11:29 PM

However there are narrations that the issue of Fadak was raised and rulings were made.

I would like to see those narrations akhee..


Abu Bakr hears a hadith (in pvt) its called Marfu.
Fatima (as) raised by the Prophet (saww) says something and its consider Mawqoof.

Brother unless and until remove the glasses of ghulu that Ahlebayt are infallible you will not understand the issue, since what i said is the rules of hadees science, that is im saying please quote me authentic hadees (from sunni books) where hz fatma(ra) said I HEARD PROPHET(SAW) saying that he left inheritance. Unless you do that your case is very weak, And illogical also.

#25 A true Sunni

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 01:31 AM

I would like to see those narrations akhee..


Brother unless and until remove the glasses of ghulu that Ahlebayt are infallible you will not understand the issue, since what i said is the rules of hadees science, that is im saying please quote me authentic hadees (from sunni books) where hz fatma(ra) said I HEARD PROPHET(SAW) saying that he left inheritance. Unless you do that your case is very weak, And illogical also.


Did a quick search on google quite a few references to various Sunni books but I stuck to the Sahih Bukhari

We read in Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:

Narrated 'Ayesha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

al-Bukhari under the Chapter of "The battle of Khaibar", Arabic-English,v5, tradition #546, pp 381-383, narrates from Ayesha that:

".. Fatimah became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not talk to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself".



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