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Hazrat Ali's Birth Year


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Poll: HAZRAT ALI'S BIRTH YEAR (1 member(s) have cast votes)

Which Is Hazrat Ali Ibn Abi Talib's Actual Birth Year ?

  1. 16 B.H.( Before Hijra) - Original Shia (1 votes [100.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 100.00%

  2. 24 B.H.(Before Hijra) - Sunni & Shia (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. 23 B.H.(Before Hijra) - Sunni & Shia (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. 22 B.H.(Before Hijra) - Original Sunni (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote

#1 Al-Afza

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 11:42 AM

Here is a copy-paste of an engaging exchange from the Wikipedia Discussion Board regarding their biographical article on Hazrat Ali Ibn Abi Talib:

Recently there have been several attempts to edit sourced Gregorian dates related to Birth / Death of Imam Ali a.s.
Editors who are changing the dates (or converting it from Hijri calendar to Gregorian calendar) should not following points:

  • The dates in place at present are sourced dates from reliable and verifialble sources (mostly from Encyclopedia Bitannica)
  • Apparently change of date is being done on basis of some date conversion tool(s),
    • Most of the date conversion tools are not accurate (try to convert recent date which you know and you will get a difference of day or two, this difference teds to scale up when we talk about dates as old as 1500 years)
    • Hijri dates tend to be different at different parts of world at same point of time (e.g. if Id-ul-fitr falls on Monday in Hejaz, in Persia it will be on Tuesday and in Hind it will be Wednesday and so on) most convertor tools don't take such considerations in view (& believe me b'coz I myself am a developer and its too difficult to make a convertor tool having such minute consideration and preciseness and it will require great effort and resource to make such tool and very few people will give it for free)
  • The converted dates avilabale in source like Encyclopedia Bitannica are work of professional date experts & are quite precise but they also don't claim it to be cent-per-cent accurate because in Hijri calendar actual cellestial date and perceived / accepted date may be different.
Considering above points please change dates only when you have sufficient proof and not on basis of any date conversion tool.
--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 09:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, y'all (IPs changing, named users changing back) need to stop changing the dates. I have literally no opinion on which date is correct, but if the article keeps being changed, I'm going to request full page protection until everyone can sort out on the talk page which version is correct. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:41, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

This article has made major errors in the conversion of the Islamic Hijri calendar dates of Ali's birth and death. For example, the date of March 17, 599 is way off and does not at all correspond to 13th Rajab 24 BH (Before Hijra). Traditionally, there is the Shia source of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate which is 13th Rajab 16 BH (Before Hijra), whose Gregorian calendar conversion falls on Friday, July 17, 607 C.E. or A.D.; this is the traditional Shi'ite date. There have been revisionist Shia scholars that have adopted some of the traditional Sunni sources for Ali's birthdate. Traditional Sunni sources place Ali's birthday in either 24 BH, 23 BH, or 22 BH. The Gregorian conversion for these dates are Friday, October 11, 599; Tuesday, September 30, 600; Saturday, September 19, 601.

Where Wikipedia gets 25 BH (Before Hijra) as Ali's birth year is beyond anyone. There are NO sources that have upheld that Ali was born in year 25 BH (Before Hijra); this erroneous birthdate of 13 Rajab 25 BH falls on 22 October 598 C.E. All Muslim sources, whether Shia, Sunni, or other unanimously uphold that Ali was born on Jumah or Friday. This narrows Ali's birthdate down to one of the traditional Sunni sources of 13th Rajab 24 BH and the traditional Shia source of 13th Rajab 16 BH. The I.M.A.M. (Imam Mahdi Association of Marjaeya) which follows the traditional Safavid scholarship, have upheld that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was age 3 when Prophet Muhammad received his initial revelation of the Holy Qur'an in year 13 BH (610 C.E.). They have further upheld that Ali was age 15 at the time of the Hijra in 1 AH (622 C.E.).

Also, Shia and Sunni sources disagree on the order of Ali's older brothers. All Shia sources uphold that Aqil Ibn Abi Talib was the 2nd son of Abu Talib Bin Abdul Muttalib, while Jafar Ibn Abi Talib was the 3rd son and Ali was the 4th and last son. Shi'ite sources place Aqil's birth in 34 BH (590 C.E.), Jafar's birth in 25 BH (598 C.E.), and Ali's birth in 16 BH (607 C.E.). However, many Sunni sources (but not all) have Jafar as the 2nd son and Aqil as the 3rd son of Abu Talib, Emir of Mecca.

As for Ali's death, this article has listed 21st Ramadhan 40 AH (Anno Hijri) which is CORRECT, however, it converts to January 31, 661 C.E. It does NOT convert to February 28, 661 or January 27 or 28, 661. All Wikipedia editors have to do is consult the Hijri-Gregorian calendar converters online such as Fourmilab Calendar Converter, Tarek's Calendar Converter, or any Islamic-Gregorian calendar converters. Wikipedia has listed March 17, 599 as one of Ali's birthdates. Well this converts to 11th Dhulhijjah 24 BH (Before Hijra) AND NOT 13th Rajab 24 BH. Such errors need to be corrected. As for Encyclopedia Britannica, their editors are not conversion date experts. Why don't the Wikipedia editors use their common sense and convert the date themselves using Fourmilab Calendar Converter. 99.179.148.221 (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Looks good case to review, but we can't rely on date convertors for exact date. Facts like birthday was on Friday may help to fix the actual A.D. date. We need to do research.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 14:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It seems "13th Rajab 24 BH & 21st Ramadān, 40 AH" seem to be unanimous Hijri dates on the article but there are numerous Gregorian dates, this is weired. I think if there is one Hijri date then there should be one Gregorian date, may be we can have note that there may be little varinace in the Gregorian date due to conversion errors.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 14:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It is an excellent case to review, indeed. The numerous Gregorian dates are because the Abbasid Caliphate scholars such as Muslim, Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, etc. have listed 22 BH. Abu Mikhnaf, the EARLIEST of all the Abbasid scholars, who was commissioned by 2nd Abbasid Caliph Al-Mansur, listed 22 BH and 16 BH. He cited both the traditional Shia and Sunni sources. The 24 and 23 BH (Before Hijra) dates were the product of 19th Century scholars. Abu Mikhnaf, Muslim, Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and all the classic Abbasid scholars have all unanimously listed that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was born on Yawm al-Jumah or Friday. However, 13th Rajab 22 BH did not fall on a Friday but 13th Rajab 16 BH did. This was the main reason why 19th Century Islamic scholars moved up the traditional Sunni year of 22 BH to 24 BH, as 13th Rajab fell on a Friday in 24 BH. From the Battle of Uhud, the famous saying that "There is no brave YOUTH like Ali and there is no sword that renders service like Dhu Al-Fiqar" has historically been cited for Ali Ibn Abi Talib being an ADOLESCENT during that battle rather than a POST-ADOLESCENT of 23 years of age. Another curious item that is also related has been the confusion of Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Hazrat Khadija, which was traditionally held to be on year 28th Amm-ul-Fil (Year of the Elephant) or 598 C.E. It was somehow transferred to the year of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth. Furthermore, 28th Amm-ul-Fil somehow got misidentified as 28th Before Hijra for Prophet Muhammad's wedding date to Hazrat Khadija which fell in 595 C.E. I hope this has helped. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.179.148.221 (talk) 14:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Rechecked the article there is no other Hijri date mentioned other than "13th Rajab 24 BH & 21st Ramadān, 40 AH". Here is the result of conversion which I tried on few convertors:

ConvertorDoB (13th Rajab 24 BH)DoD (21st Ramadān, 40 AH)islamicfinderBH conversion not avialbleThursday 28 January 661 C.E.islamicityTuesday 21 October 598 C.E.Thursday 28 January 661 C.E.muslimphilosophyTuesday 21 October 598 C.E.Thursday 28 January 661 C.E.al-islamBH conversion not avialbleWednesday 27 January 661 C.E.Tarek'sBH conversion not avialbleThursday 31 January 661 AD GregorianorioldTuesday 21 October 598 ChristianThursday 28 January 661 AD Christian
What do the editor's guild suggest? I'll prefer doing more research. 99.179.148.221 (Sorry there is no name, you never mentioned it) you gave good research if you can give links (reference) to your Hijri dates may be we will re-do the dates and include other dates also. But these conversion tools are not reliable so we should include a note that there may be little varinace in the Gregorian date due to conversion errors. --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 15:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Salam, Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider. Fourmilab Calendar Converter & Tarek Mani's Calendar Converter DO INDEED give the BH or BEFORE HIJRI date conversions to Gregorian. I just did them on it myself as I am typing this. What you have to do is type in the Gregorian dates I listed than you will automatically get the BEFORE HIJRI results. 13th Rajab 24 B.H. converts as Friday, 11th October, 599 C.E., if this is the one Wikipedia wants to settle upon. The Kuwaiti Algorithms Hijri-Gregorian converter also corroborates Fourmilab Calendar Converter & Tarek's Converter. 21st/22nd October 598 C.E. converts to year 25 Before Hijra NOT 24 Before Hijra. However, that March 17, 599 conversion in the Wikipedia article IS COMPLETELY WRONG. The references you ask are Ibn Nadim's AL-FIHRIST & Tabari's collections on Abu Mikhnaf's KITAB AL-SAQIFAH; KITAB AL-JAMAL; KITAB AL-SIFFIN.-Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.179.148.221 (talk) 15:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed answer, you give names of book can you give page no. also and if possible a web link. Also, if you can list it as below style:
  • Date 1: reference 1, reference 2, etc
  • Date 2: reference 1, reference 2, etc
  • etc
I'll still suggest that we should not take any action in hurry (i.e. editing dates on the article) we should gather all possible facts and then decide what to encorporate in article based on reliablity & verifiability. I'll be mute for next 32-33 hours till then you may do the research and collect all the facts then we can analyse it. We are still missing your name. Why don't you create an account on wikipedia (top right corner has the link). --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 16:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Abu Mikhnaf's KITAB MAQTAL ALI published in year 156 AH(Anno Hijri) or 773 AD(Anno Domini) mentions Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth & death dates as 13th Rajab 16 BH - 21st Ramadhan 40 AH. Abu Mikhnaf's chronicle of Ali's birth & death dates is by far the OLDEST historical record of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's chronology.

A suggestion would be to list one traditional Sunni scholarship date and its Gregorian conversion and also list the traditional Shia scholarship date and its Gregorian conversion for Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate. There are no significant conflicting dates for his death of 21st Ramadhan 40 AH; whose Gregorian conversion falls on 31st January 661 C.E.

For conversion tool reference, Fourmilab Calendar Converter or Tarek Maani's Calendar Converter 8.5 could suffice--

http://www.phys.uu.n...slam_tabcal.htm
http://www.fourmilab...ments/calendar/
http://members.fortu...e85/conv80.html
http://bennyhills.fo...4/calindex.html

  • Date 1 (Sunni) :
13th Rajab 24 BH (11th October 599 CE) - "Ali The Superman" by Dr. Ata Mohiyuddin; Sh. Muhammad Ashraf Publishers; 1980 1st Edition. "Ali Al-Murtaza" by Abdur Rahman Shad; Kazi Publications; 1978 1st Edition.
13th Rajab 23 BH (30th September 600 CE) - "Ali The Magnificent" by Yousuf N. Lalljee; Ansariyan Publications; Jan 1981 1st Edition.
13th Rajab 22 BH (19th September 601 CE) - "Ali The Caliph" by Mohammad Ali Al-Haj Salmin; Qassim Ali Jairazbhoy Publishers; 1931 1st Edition.

  • Date 2 (Shia) :
13th Rajab 16 BH (17th July 607 CE) - "Kitab Maqtal Ali" by Abu Mikhnaf (Lut b. Yahya b. Sa'id b. Mikhnaf b. Salim al-Azdi al-Ghamidi al-Kufi) - originally published 156 AH/773 AD; from which Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate was replicated by I.M.A.M.(Imam Mahdi Association of Marjaeya) Cultural Publication; Volume 2, Issue 5.

Abu Mikhnaf's great-grandfather was a companion of Imam 'Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Abu Mikhnaf was a trusted and a reliable historian whose tradition reports were relied upon by many historians-Shi'ah and Sunni-including Muhammad b. 'Amr Waqidi (d. 207 A.H.), Tabari (d. 310 A.H.), Ibn Qutaybah (d. 322 A.H.), Mas'udi (d. 345 A.H.), Mufid (d. 413 A.H.), Shahrastani (d. 548 A.H.), Khatib Khwarazmi (d. 568 A.H.), Ibn Athir (d. 630 A.H.), Sibt b. Jawzi (d. 654 A.H.).

I.M.A.M. is the North American liaison office of the supreme Shia authority, the High Marja Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husseini Sistani.

Edited by Al-Afza, 13 November 2010 - 11:54 AM.


#2 Socrates

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 12:45 PM

63 at the age of martyrdom, therefore 23 BH seems to be the most correct. Interesting point about the day being Friday, though errors in conversion are understandable.

#3 Al-Afza

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 08:15 PM

[Revised & Updated Edit]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a copy-paste of an engaging exchange from the Wikipedia Discussion Board regarding their biographical article on Hazrat Ali Ibn Abi Talib:

Recently there have been several attempts to edit sourced Gregorian dates related to Birth / Death of Imam Ali a.s.
Editors who are changing the dates (or converting it from Hijri calendar to Gregorian calendar) should not following points:

  • The dates in place at present are sourced dates from reliable and verifialble sources (mostly from Encyclopedia Bitannica)
  • Apparently change of date is being done on basis of some date conversion tool(s),
    • Most of the date conversion tools are not accurate (try to convert recent date which you know and you will get a difference of day or two, this difference teds to scale up when we talk about dates as old as 1500 years)
    • Hijri dates tend to be different at different parts of world at same point of time (e.g. if Id-ul-fitr falls on Monday in Hejaz, in Persia it will be on Tuesday and in Hind it will be Wednesday and so on) most convertor tools don't take such considerations in view (& believe me b'coz I myself am a developer and its too difficult to make a convertor tool having such minute consideration and preciseness and it will require great effort and resource to make such tool and very few people will give it for free)
  • The converted dates avilabale in source like Encyclopedia Bitannica are work of professional date experts & are quite precise but they also don't claim it to be cent-per-cent accurate because in Hijri calendar actual cellestial date and perceived / accepted date may be different.
Considering above points please change dates only when you have sufficient proof and not on basis of any date conversion tool.
--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 09:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, y'all (IPs changing, named users changing back) need to stop changing the dates. I have literally no opinion on which date is correct, but if the article keeps being changed, I'm going to request full page protection until everyone can sort out on the talk page which version is correct. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:41, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

This article has made major errors in the conversion of the Islamic Hijri calendar dates of Ali's birth and death. For example, the date of March 17, 599 is way off and does not at all correspond to 13th Rajab 24 BH (Before Hijra). Traditionally, there is the Shia source of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate which is 13th Rajab 16 BH (Before Hijra), whose Gregorian calendar conversion falls on Friday, July 17, 607 C.E. or A.D.; this is the traditional Shi'ite date. There have been revisionist Shia scholars that have adopted some of the traditional Sunni sources for Ali's birthdate. Traditional Sunni sources place Ali's birthday in either 24 BH, 23 BH, or 22 BH. The Gregorian conversion for these dates are Friday, October 11, 599; Tuesday, September 30, 600; Saturday, September 19, 601.

Where Wikipedia gets 25 BH (Before Hijra) as Ali's birth year is beyond anyone. There are NO sources that have upheld that Ali was born in year 25 BH (Before Hijra); this erroneous birthdate of 13 Rajab 25 BH falls on 22 October 598 C.E. All Muslim sources, whether Shia, Sunni, or other unanimously uphold that Ali was born on Jumah or Friday. This narrows Ali's birthdate down to one of the traditional Sunni sources of 13th Rajab 24 BH and the traditional Shia source of 13th Rajab 16 BH. The I.M.A.M. (Imam Mahdi Association of Marjaeya) which follows the traditional Safavid scholarship, have upheld that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was age 3 when Prophet Muhammad received his initial revelation of the Holy Qur'an in year 13 BH (610 C.E.). They have further upheld that Ali was age 15 at the time of the Hijra in 1 AH (622 C.E.).

Also, Shia and Sunni sources disagree on the order of Ali's older brothers. All Shia sources uphold that Aqil Ibn Abi Talib was the 2nd son of Abu Talib Bin Abdul Muttalib, while Jafar Ibn Abi Talib was the 3rd son and Ali was the 4th and last son. Shi'ite sources place Aqil's birth in 34 BH (590 C.E.), Jafar's birth in 25 BH (598 C.E.), and Ali's birth in 16 BH (607 C.E.). However, many Sunni sources (but not all) have Jafar as the 2nd son and Aqil as the 3rd son of Abu Talib, Emir of Mecca.

As for Ali's death, this article has listed 21st Ramadhan 40 AH (Anno Hijri) which is CORRECT, however, it converts to January 31, 661 C.E. It does NOT convert to February 28, 661 or January 27 or 28, 661. All Wikipedia editors have to do is consult the Hijri-Gregorian calendar converters online such as Fourmilab Calendar Converter, Tarek's Calendar Converter, or any Islamic-Gregorian calendar converters. Wikipedia has listed March 17, 599 as one of Ali's birthdates. Well this converts to 11th Dhulhijjah 24 BH (Before Hijra) AND NOT 13th Rajab 24 BH. Such errors need to be corrected. As for Encyclopedia Britannica, their editors are not conversion date experts. Why don't the Wikipedia editors use their common sense and convert the date themselves using Fourmilab Calendar Converter. 99.179.148.221 (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Looks good case to review, but we can't rely on date convertors for exact date. Facts like birthday was on Friday may help to fix the actual A.D. date. We need to do research.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 14:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It seems "13th Rajab 24 BH & 21st Ramadān, 40 AH" seem to be unanimous Hijri dates on the article but there are numerous Gregorian dates, this is weired. I think if there is one Hijri date then there should be one Gregorian date, may be we can have note that there may be little varinace in the Gregorian date due to conversion errors.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 14:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

It is an excellent case to review, indeed. The numerous Gregorian dates are because the Abbasid Caliphate scholars such as Muslim, Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, etc. have listed 22 BH. Abu Mikhnaf, the EARLIEST of all the Abbasid scholars, who was commissioned by 2nd Abbasid Caliph Al-Mansur, listed 22 BH and 16 BH. He cited both the traditional Shia and Sunni sources. The 24 and 23 BH (Before Hijra) dates were the product of 19th Century scholars. Abu Mikhnaf, Muslim, Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and all the classic Abbasid scholars have all unanimously listed that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was born on Yawm al-Jumah or Friday. However, 13th Rajab 22 BH did not fall on a Friday but 13th Rajab 16 BH did. This was the main reason why 19th Century Islamic scholars moved up the traditional Sunni year of 22 BH to 24 BH, as 13th Rajab fell on a Friday in 24 BH. From the Battle of Uhud, the famous saying that "There is no brave YOUTH like Ali and there is no sword that renders service like Dhu Al-Fiqar" has historically been cited for Ali Ibn Abi Talib being an ADOLESCENT during that battle rather than a POST-ADOLESCENT of 23 years of age. Another curious item that is also related has been the confusion of Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Hazrat Khadija, which was traditionally held to be on year 28th Amm-ul-Fil (Year of the Elephant) or 598 C.E. It was somehow transferred to the year of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth. Furthermore, 28th Amm-ul-Fil somehow got misidentified as 28th Before Hijra for Prophet Muhammad's wedding date to Hazrat Khadija which fell in 595 C.E. I hope this has helped. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.179.148.221 (talk) 14:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Rechecked the article there is no other Hijri date mentioned other than "13th Rajab 24 BH & 21st Ramadān, 40 AH". Here is the result of conversion which I tried on few convertors:

ConvertorDoB (13th Rajab 24 BH)DoD (21st Ramadān, 40 AH)islamicfinderBH conversion not avialbleThursday 28 January 661 C.E.islamicityTuesday 21 October 598 C.E.Thursday 28 January 661 C.E.muslimphilosophyTuesday 21 October 598 C.E.Thursday 28 January 661 C.E.al-islamBH conversion not avialbleWednesday 27 January 661 C.E.Tarek'sBH conversion not avialbleThursday 31 January 661 AD GregorianorioldTuesday 21 October 598 ChristianThursday 28 January 661 AD Christian
What do the editor's guild suggest? I'll prefer doing more research. 99.179.148.221 (Sorry there is no name, you never mentioned it) you gave good research if you can give links (reference) to your Hijri dates may be we will re-do the dates and include other dates also. But these conversion tools are not reliable so we should include a note that there may be little varinace in the Gregorian date due to conversion errors. --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 15:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Salam, Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider. Fourmilab Calendar Converter & Tarek Maani's Calendar Converter DO INDEED give the BH or BEFORE HIJRI date conversions to Gregorian. I just did them on it myself as I am typing this. What you have to do is type in the Gregorian dates I listed than you will automatically get the BEFORE HIJRI results. 13th Rajab 24 B.H. converts as Friday, 11th October, 599 C.E., if this is the one Wikipedia wants to settle upon. The Kuwaiti Algorithms Hijri-Gregorian converter also corroborates Fourmilab Calendar Converter & Tarek's Converter. 21st/22nd October 598 C.E. converts to year 25 Before Hijra NOT 24 Before Hijra. However, that March 17, 599 conversion in the Wikipedia article IS COMPLETELY WRONG. The references you ask are Ibn Nadim's AL-FIHRIST & Tabari's collections on Abu Mikhnaf's KITAB AL-SAQIFAH(150 AH/767 CE); KITAB AL-JAMAL(150 AH/767 CE); KITAB AL-SIFFIN(150 AH/767 CE).-Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.179.148.221 (talk) 15:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed answer, you give names of book can you give page no. also and if possible a web link. Also, if you can list it as below style:
  • Date 1: reference 1, reference 2, etc
  • Date 2: reference 1, reference 2, etc
  • etc
I'll still suggest that we should not take any action in hurry (i.e. editing dates on the article) we should gather all possible facts and then decide what to encorporate in article based on reliablity & verifiability. I'll be mute for next 32-33 hours till then you may do the research and collect all the facts then we can analyse it. We are still missing your name. Why don't you create an account on wikipedia (top right corner has the link). --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 16:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Abu Mikhnaf's KITAB MAQTAL ALI published in year 153 AH(Anno Hijri) or 770 AD(Anno Domini) mentions Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth & death dates as 13th Rajab 16 BH - 21st Ramadhan 40 AH. Abu Mikhnaf's chronicle of Ali's birth & death dates is by far the OLDEST historical record of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's chronology.

A suggestion would be to list one traditional Sunni scholarship date and its Gregorian conversion and also list the traditional Shia scholarship date and its Gregorian conversion for Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate. There are no significant conflicting dates for his death of 21st Ramadhan 40 AH; whose Gregorian conversion falls on 31st January 661 C.E.

For conversion tool reference, Fourmilab Calendar Converter or Tarek Maani's Calendar Converter 8.5 could suffice--

http://www.phys.uu.n...slam_tabcal.htm
http://www.fourmilab...ments/calendar/
http://members.fortu...e85/conv80.html
http://bennyhills.fo...4/calindex.html

  • Date 1 (Sunni) :
13th Rajab 24 BH (11th October 599 CE) - "Ali The Superman" by Dr. Ata Mohiyuddin; Sh. Muhammad Ashraf Publishers; 1980 1st Edition. "Ali Al-Murtaza" by Abdur Rahman Shad; Kazi Publications; 1978 1st Edition.
13th Rajab 23 BH (30th September 600 CE) - "Ali The Magnificent" by Yousuf N. Lalljee; Ansariyan Publications; Jan 1981 1st Edition.
13th Rajab 22 BH (19th September 601 CE) - "Ali The Caliph" by Mohammad Ali Al-Haj Salmin; Qassim Ali Jairazbhoy Publishers; 1931 1st Edition.

  • Date 2 (Shia) :
13th Rajab 16 BH (17th July 607 CE) - "Kitab Maqtal Ali" by Abu Mikhnaf (Lut b. Yahya b. Sa'id b. Mikhnaf b. Salim al-Azdi al-Ghamidi al-Kufi; died 157 AH/774 CE) - originally published 153 AH/770 AD; from which Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate was replicated by I.M.A.M.(Imam Mahdi Association of Marjaeya) Islamic Cultural Publication; Volume 2, Issue 5. Abu Mikhnaf's KITAB MAQTAL HUSAYN was published in 156 AH/773 AD.

Abu Mikhnaf's great-grandfather was a companion of Imam 'Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Abu Mikhnaf was a trusted and a reliable historian whose tradition reports were relied upon by many historians-Shi'ah and Sunni-including Muhammad b. 'Amr Waqidi (d. 207 A.H.), Tabari (d. 310 A.H.), Ibn Qutaybah (d. 322 A.H.), Mas'udi (d. 345 A.H.), Mufid (d. 413 A.H.), Shahrastani (d. 548 A.H.), Khatib Khwarazmi (d. 568 A.H.), Ibn Athir (d. 630 A.H.), Sibt b. Jawzi (d. 654 A.H.).

I.M.A.M. is the North American liaison office of the supreme Shia authority, the High Marja Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husseini Sistani.

Edited by Al-Afza, 13 November 2010 - 09:05 PM.


#4 Al-Afza

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 11:21 AM

Append To Preceding Post :

Lut bin Yahya bin Sa'id bin Mikhnaf bin Salim Al-Azdi Al-Ghamidi Al-Kufi (aka Abu Mikhnaf) died in 157 A.H.(774 A.D.). He was commissioned by the 2nd Abbasid Caliph Abu Jafar Abdullah Bin Muhammad Al-Mansur (reigned 754-775 A.D.) to chronicle Islamic history. Since there were no known historical records or hagiography documented by the Umayyad Dynasty of Caliphs, there was virtually no standard Islamic historical literature. Whether or not any extensive Umayyad historical or theological literature ever existed or not may never be truly known. It could be theorized that the Abbasids obliterated all Umayyad historical or theological literature if they even existed.

Abu Mikhnaf (whose great-grandfather Mikhnaf bin Salim was a companion of Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib) was the very first standard Islamic historian & hagiographer since the temporal Islamic leadership of Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib. Ibn Ishaq has also been attributed some of the earliest known standard Islamic historical & hagiographical works. Nonetheless, Abu Mikhnaf remains the most important Islamic scholarly source who fills in the gap of missing literature from the Umayyad Dynasty. His full body of work was published in 3 installments. Abu Mikhnaf's 1st collection of historical literature and hagiography was published in 150 A.H.(767 A.D.); his 2nd collection was published in 153 A.H.(770 A.D.); his 3rd and last collection of works were published in 156 A.H.(773 A.D.). Contrary to some sources, Abu Mikhnaf had no collection of works published the year he died in 157 A.H.(774 A.D.), nor posthumously.

* A correction of the anonymous Wikipedia source that stated that Abu Mikhnaf cited both Shi'ite and Sunni sources of 22 B.H. and 16 B.H. as Hazrat Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth year. Abu Mikhnaf only recorded 16 B.H. while Tabari cited both the traditional Sunni date 22 B.H. and the original Shi'ite date 16 B.H. for Hazrat Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth year.

Edited by Al-Afza, 20 November 2010 - 11:29 AM.


#5 viceroy

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:13 PM

Ibn Ishaq (b. 85 A.H./704 CE - d. 151 A.H./768 CE) was the other of the first two standard Islamic historians & hagioigraphers (alongside Abu Miknaf). Scholar Ibn Hisham's surviving (edited version) allegedly derived from Ibn Ishaq's Kitab ul-Khulafa (Book of the Successors), records 22 B.H.(601 CE) as Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth year. However, this alleged work by Ibn Ishaq was purportedly published posthumously. A precise date was never settled upon.

One tradition has it that the 2nd Abbasid Caliph, Al-Mansur (reigned 754-775 CE), commissioned both Abu Mikhnaf and Ibn Ishaq in year 761 CE to commence compilations from research the standard history of Islam. Ibn Ishaq took 6 years to compile his very first work Sirat Al-Nabawiyah (The Way of the Announcer)* which was published in 767 CE; it was this seminal work which gradually became the basis of what evolved into the Sunnat (Traditions) of Nabih Muhammad. This compilation was later alternately renamed Sirat Rasulallah (The Way of the Messenger of the Divinity). Ibn Ishaq died in 151 A.H.(768 CE), Abu Mikhnaf died in 157 A.H.(774 CE), and Caliph Al-Mansur died in 158 A.H.(775 CE).

On the other hand, Abu Mikhnaf's Maqtal Ali (The Slaying of Ali) was indeed the earliest hagiography of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, which is where the 16 B.H.(607 CE) date derives from. According to Abu Mikhnaf's original work, Imam Ali was in his mid-50s when he was martyred and officially recorded the year 16 B.H.(607 CE) as his birth year. Abu Mikhnaf's Kitab Maqtal Ali (Book of the Slaying of Ali) was first published in 153 A.H.(770 CE).

Consequently, the original Shi'ite date of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth year was recorded as 16 Before Hijrah (607 Common Era).

The traditional Orthodox (Sunnih) date of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth year was recorded as 22 Before Hijrah (601 Common Era).

Where exactly 20th & 21st Century standard Islamic scholars & historians came up with 24 B.H.(599 CE) & 23 B.H.(600 CE) is inexplicable. These two year dates go back to the 19th Century CE, when standard Islamic texts (in both Arabic & Farsi) were widely being translated into English & French.

For whatever socio-political reasons, the latter of the two dates of Imam Ali's birth year (i.e. 22 B.H. or 601 CE) became favoured and widely accepted. Consequently, the 16 B.H.(607 CE) date of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth year gradually slipped into obscurity, surviving only in few literary sources.

*P.S.

[copy-paste]
The Original Form of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah is Lost

As I have already said, the Sirat written by Ibn Ishaq only exists in a later revised and shortened version by Ibn Hisham, who died in 834 C.E, 60 years after Ibn Ishaq-- and in fragments quoted by other Muslim writers including another historian, Muhammad Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari (839-923 C.E.).

Posted ImageIbn Hisham, the editor of Ibn Ishaq's biography admitted to removing certain stories from Ibn Ishaq's work

Ibn Hisham was not a scholar of hadith. He was only a biographer and did not use the proper method of collecting Hadith and the proper way of deterimining a valid isnad. Ibn Hisham explains that in his version he omits a lot of material from Ibn Ishaq's biography:

"God willing I shall begin this book with Isma'il son of Ibrahim and mention those of his offspring who were the ancestors of God's apostle one by one with what is known about them, taking no account of Isma'il's other children, omitting some of the things which I.I. has recorded in this book in which there is no mention of the apostle and about which the Quran says nothing and which are not relevant to anything in this book or an explanation of it or evidence for it; poems which he quotes that no authority on poetry whom I have met knows of; things which it is disgraceful to discuss; matters which would distress certain people; and such reports as al-Bakka'i told me he could not accept as trustworthy - all these things I have omitted. But God willing I shall give a full account of everything else so far as it is known and trustworthy tradition is available."

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Edited by viceroy, 05 November 2011 - 11:06 PM.





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