Recently there have been several attempts to edit sourced Gregorian dates related to Birth / Death of Imam Ali a.s.
Editors who are changing the dates (or converting it from Hijri calendar to Gregorian calendar) should not following points:
- The dates in place at present are sourced dates from reliable and verifialble sources (mostly from Encyclopedia Bitannica)
- Apparently change of date is being done on basis of some date conversion tool(s),
- Most of the date conversion tools are not accurate (try to convert recent date which you know and you will get a difference of day or two, this difference teds to scale up when we talk about dates as old as 1500 years)
- Hijri dates tend to be different at different parts of world at same point of time (e.g. if Id-ul-fitr falls on Monday in Hejaz, in Persia it will be on Tuesday and in Hind it will be Wednesday and so on) most convertor tools don't take such considerations in view (& believe me b'coz I myself am a developer and its too difficult to make a convertor tool having such minute consideration and preciseness and it will require great effort and resource to make such tool and very few people will give it for free)
- The converted dates avilabale in source like Encyclopedia Bitannica are work of professional date experts & are quite precise but they also don't claim it to be cent-per-cent accurate because in Hijri calendar actual cellestial date and perceived / accepted date may be different.
--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 09:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
Okay, y'all (IPs changing, named users changing back) need to stop changing the dates. I have literally no opinion on which date is correct, but if the article keeps being changed, I'm going to request full page protection until everyone can sort out on the talk page which version is correct. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:41, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
This article has made major errors in the conversion of the Islamic Hijri calendar dates of Ali's birth and death. For example, the date of March 17, 599 is way off and does not at all correspond to 13th Rajab 24 BH (Before Hijra). Traditionally, there is the Shia source of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate which is 13th Rajab 16 BH (Before Hijra), whose Gregorian calendar conversion falls on Friday, July 17, 607 C.E. or A.D.; this is the traditional Shi'ite date. There have been revisionist Shia scholars that have adopted some of the traditional Sunni sources for Ali's birthdate. Traditional Sunni sources place Ali's birthday in either 24 BH, 23 BH, or 22 BH. The Gregorian conversion for these dates are Friday, October 11, 599; Tuesday, September 30, 600; Saturday, September 19, 601.
Where Wikipedia gets 25 BH (Before Hijra) as Ali's birth year is beyond anyone. There are NO sources that have upheld that Ali was born in year 25 BH (Before Hijra); this erroneous birthdate of 13 Rajab 25 BH falls on 22 October 598 C.E. All Muslim sources, whether Shia, Sunni, or other unanimously uphold that Ali was born on Jumah or Friday. This narrows Ali's birthdate down to one of the traditional Sunni sources of 13th Rajab 24 BH and the traditional Shia source of 13th Rajab 16 BH. The I.M.A.M. (Imam Mahdi Association of Marjaeya) which follows the traditional Safavid scholarship, have upheld that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was age 3 when Prophet Muhammad received his initial revelation of the Holy Qur'an in year 13 BH (610 C.E.). They have further upheld that Ali was age 15 at the time of the Hijra in 1 AH (622 C.E.).
Also, Shia and Sunni sources disagree on the order of Ali's older brothers. All Shia sources uphold that Aqil Ibn Abi Talib was the 2nd son of Abu Talib Bin Abdul Muttalib, while Jafar Ibn Abi Talib was the 3rd son and Ali was the 4th and last son. Shi'ite sources place Aqil's birth in 34 BH (590 C.E.), Jafar's birth in 25 BH (598 C.E.), and Ali's birth in 16 BH (607 C.E.). However, many Sunni sources (but not all) have Jafar as the 2nd son and Aqil as the 3rd son of Abu Talib, Emir of Mecca.
As for Ali's death, this article has listed 21st Ramadhan 40 AH (Anno Hijri) which is CORRECT, however, it converts to January 31, 661 C.E. It does NOT convert to February 28, 661 or January 27 or 28, 661. All Wikipedia editors have to do is consult the Hijri-Gregorian calendar converters online such as Fourmilab Calendar Converter, Tarek's Calendar Converter, or any Islamic-Gregorian calendar converters. Wikipedia has listed March 17, 599 as one of Ali's birthdates. Well this converts to 11th Dhulhijjah 24 BH (Before Hijra) AND NOT 13th Rajab 24 BH. Such errors need to be corrected. As for Encyclopedia Britannica, their editors are not conversion date experts. Why don't the Wikipedia editors use their common sense and convert the date themselves using Fourmilab Calendar Converter. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Looks good case to review, but we can't rely on date convertors for exact date. Facts like birthday was on Friday may help to fix the actual A.D. date. We need to do research.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 14:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
It seems "13th Rajab 24 BH & 21st Ramadān, 40 AH" seem to be unanimous Hijri dates on the article but there are numerous Gregorian dates, this is weired. I think if there is one Hijri date then there should be one Gregorian date, may be we can have note that there may be little varinace in the Gregorian date due to conversion errors.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 14:12, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
It is an excellent case to review, indeed. The numerous Gregorian dates are because the Abbasid Caliphate scholars such as Muslim, Bukhari, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, etc. have listed 22 BH. Abu Mikhnaf, the EARLIEST of all the Abbasid scholars, who was commissioned by 2nd Abbasid Caliph Al-Mansur, listed 22 BH and 16 BH. He cited both the traditional Shia and Sunni sources. The 24 and 23 BH (Before Hijra) dates were the product of 19th Century scholars. Abu Mikhnaf, Muslim, Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and all the classic Abbasid scholars have all unanimously listed that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was born on Yawm al-Jumah or Friday. However, 13th Rajab 22 BH did not fall on a Friday but 13th Rajab 16 BH did. This was the main reason why 19th Century Islamic scholars moved up the traditional Sunni year of 22 BH to 24 BH, as 13th Rajab fell on a Friday in 24 BH. From the Battle of Uhud, the famous saying that "There is no brave YOUTH like Ali and there is no sword that renders service like Dhu Al-Fiqar" has historically been cited for Ali Ibn Abi Talib being an ADOLESCENT during that battle rather than a POST-ADOLESCENT of 23 years of age. Another curious item that is also related has been the confusion of Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Hazrat Khadija, which was traditionally held to be on year 28th Amm-ul-Fil (Year of the Elephant) or 598 C.E. It was somehow transferred to the year of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth. Furthermore, 28th Amm-ul-Fil somehow got misidentified as 28th Before Hijra for Prophet Muhammad's wedding date to Hazrat Khadija which fell in 595 C.E. I hope this has helped. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 14:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Rechecked the article there is no other Hijri date mentioned other than "13th Rajab 24 BH & 21st Ramadān, 40 AH". Here is the result of conversion which I tried on few convertors:
ConvertorDoB (13th Rajab 24 BH)DoD (21st Ramadān, 40 AH)islamicfinderBH conversion not avialbleThursday 28 January 661 C.E.islamicityTuesday 21 October 598 C.E.Thursday 28 January 661 C.E.muslimphilosophyTuesday 21 October 598 C.E.Thursday 28 January 661 C.E.al-islamBH conversion not avialbleWednesday 27 January 661 C.E.Tarek'sBH conversion not avialbleThursday 31 January 661 AD GregorianorioldTuesday 21 October 598 ChristianThursday 28 January 661 AD Christian
What do the editor's guild suggest? I'll prefer doing more research. 184.108.40.206 (Sorry there is no name, you never mentioned it) you gave good research if you can give links (reference) to your Hijri dates may be we will re-do the dates and include other dates also. But these conversion tools are not reliable so we should include a note that there may be little varinace in the Gregorian date due to conversion errors. --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidertcs 15:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Salam, Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider. Fourmilab Calendar Converter & Tarek Mani's Calendar Converter DO INDEED give the BH or BEFORE HIJRI date conversions to Gregorian. I just did them on it myself as I am typing this. What you have to do is type in the Gregorian dates I listed than you will automatically get the BEFORE HIJRI results. 13th Rajab 24 B.H. converts as Friday, 11th October, 599 C.E., if this is the one Wikipedia wants to settle upon. The Kuwaiti Algorithms Hijri-Gregorian converter also corroborates Fourmilab Calendar Converter & Tarek's Converter. 21st/22nd October 598 C.E. converts to year 25 Before Hijra NOT 24 Before Hijra. However, that March 17, 599 conversion in the Wikipedia article IS COMPLETELY WRONG. The references you ask are Ibn Nadim's AL-FIHRIST & Tabari's collections on Abu Mikhnaf's KITAB AL-SAQIFAH; KITAB AL-JAMAL; KITAB AL-SIFFIN.-Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your detailed answer, you give names of book can you give page no. also and if possible a web link. Also, if you can list it as below style:
- Date 1: reference 1, reference 2, etc
- Date 2: reference 1, reference 2, etc
Abu Mikhnaf's KITAB MAQTAL ALI published in year 156 AH(Anno Hijri) or 773 AD(Anno Domini) mentions Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birth & death dates as 13th Rajab 16 BH - 21st Ramadhan 40 AH. Abu Mikhnaf's chronicle of Ali's birth & death dates is by far the OLDEST historical record of Ali Ibn Abi Talib's chronology.
A suggestion would be to list one traditional Sunni scholarship date and its Gregorian conversion and also list the traditional Shia scholarship date and its Gregorian conversion for Ali Ibn Abi Talib's birthdate. There are no significant conflicting dates for his death of 21st Ramadhan 40 AH; whose Gregorian conversion falls on 31st January 661 C.E.
For conversion tool reference, Fourmilab Calendar Converter or Tarek Maani's Calendar Converter 8.5 could suffice--
- Date 1 (Sunni) :
13th Rajab 23 BH (30th September 600 CE) - "Ali The Magnificent" by Yousuf N. Lalljee; Ansariyan Publications; Jan 1981 1st Edition.
13th Rajab 22 BH (19th September 601 CE) - "Ali The Caliph" by Mohammad Ali Al-Haj Salmin; Qassim Ali Jairazbhoy Publishers; 1931 1st Edition.
- Date 2 (Shia) :
Abu Mikhnaf's great-grandfather was a companion of Imam 'Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Abu Mikhnaf was a trusted and a reliable historian whose tradition reports were relied upon by many historians-Shi'ah and Sunni-including Muhammad b. 'Amr Waqidi (d. 207 A.H.), Tabari (d. 310 A.H.), Ibn Qutaybah (d. 322 A.H.), Mas'udi (d. 345 A.H.), Mufid (d. 413 A.H.), Shahrastani (d. 548 A.H.), Khatib Khwarazmi (d. 568 A.H.), Ibn Athir (d. 630 A.H.), Sibt b. Jawzi (d. 654 A.H.).
I.M.A.M. is the North American liaison office of the supreme Shia authority, the High Marja Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husseini Sistani.
Edited by Al-Afza, 13 November 2010 - 11:54 AM.