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The Omitted Verses Of Mark 16:9-20


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#1 placid

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 02:44 PM

Hi Haider,

--- (I thought it best to separate ourselves from that busy topic, and deal with the subject of mutuel interest. I took the liberty of adding your response at the bottom.)


It is not necessary to ‘defend’ the Scriptures, as though God has not preserved His word, but rather it is important to expose the evidence of its preservation and accuracy.

These were the portions of Scripture you mentioned in Post 5 that were not in some manuscripts:
Mark 16:9-20 Someone should really tell the snake-handlers about this.
John 7:53-8:11 Everyone's favorite Jesus story.
John 5:7-8 Only explicit statement about the Trinity, and it was a fabrication.


Mark 16:9-20:
--- The footnote in my New King James Bible says:
The verses 9-20 are bracketed in NU as not original.
They are lacking in Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark contain them.

--- The verses are bracketed in NU, that means that in --- N, the eelectic Greek text in the 26th edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek NT, ---and in U, the third edition of the United Bible Societies’ Greek NT.
--- This means that they are included, but put in brackets and identified as not original.


The Codex Siniaticus is considered to be one of the most important books in the world. It is from the fourth century and was hand written in Coine Greek, and is a complete writing of the Bible, which proves that it was there in Codex form in AD 400.
--- (Does this not prove that the Bible was approved by the best scholars and translators, of their time? If they left out certain portions like Mark 16:9-20 because they hadn’t found it in the Gospel of Mark that it had been copied from, it doesn’t make the Codex inaccurate, does it? --- So, here is your proof that this Codex was authentic, it
is online in Greek, which contains the whole Bible. You can check it out.)

Quote: The Codex Vaticanus, so called because it is the most famous manuscript in the possession of the Vatican library, is generally believed to be from the fourth century, and is thought to be the oldest (nearly) complete copy of the Greek Bible in existence. Lacking from it are most of the book of Genesis, Hebrews 9:14 to the end, the Pastoral Epistles, and the book of Revelation; these parts were lost by damage to the front and back of the volume, which is common in ancient manuscripts. --- End of quote.
--- (Another proof that the Bible was compiled and approved as authentic. This should be evidence that nobody changed it after it was compiled. You can check it out too.)

In the late 300’s the Scholar Jerome was commissioned to translate the Bible into Latin, which he completed about 400, and it was called the Latin Vulgate. This was used by the Church from then till the 1500’s when it was translated into English in the Douay Version. (Of which I have a copy.)
--- (The verses 16:9-20 are in the Douay Version, which proves they would have been in the Latin Vulgate in order for them to translate it into English, does it not?)
--- About that time King James of England commissioned 47 scholars and linguists to translate the Bible from the early Greek manuscripts to English. The result was the King James Version. It too contains 16:9-20, so it would have been in the Greek manuscripts that they translated from.)

Notice this, --- after it mentions that 16:9-20 is not in the Codex Siniaticus, or the Codex Vaticanus, it says, --- although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark contain them.

In checking the various Bible versions I have, --- it is in them all.
In the NAS, New American Standard the verses are bracketed, and say, ‘some manuscripts omit these verses.’
The NIV, New International Version says, ‘The most reliable Manuscripts omit 9-29.’ --- The ‘most reliable’ would be Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus.
The Amplified Bible says, ‘Not in the two earliest manuscripts.’
The RSV, Revised Standard Version says, ‘Other versions add 9-20,’ --- and then it includes them..
NEB New English Bible includes them, then mentions that some don’t include them.
The NKJV, New King James Version, is what I quoted from above where I said Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus do not contain them, ‘although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark contain them.’

So the Bibles we have in the different versions are translated from the Greek and Latin Bibles which were compiled in Codex, or book form for the first time in the fourth century.
--- So they were preserved from before Muhammad’s time, and the OT and NT are the accurate translation of the Greek manuscripts. --- Any questions of critics about authorship are futile, because what was written was "locked in" the Greek manuscripts. --- If one person decides to write a distorted version, it doesn't change what is "locked in" to History, does it?
--- And we are the most privileged people because that which is "locked in" is online for us to examine.
--- No generation before had the online resourses that we have, did they?
--- So, I say, --- be learners, not critics.

Now, a question? Was it not accurate to include this Scripture in Mark 16 in all the versions, which was in most manuscripts, --- and make a notation that it was not in all manuscripts?


Placid


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#38 Haider Husayn


Hi Placid, I will let you respond to the other points, and then I will answer. I just wanted to point out that I made a mistake in my post. It should be 1 John 5:7-8, not the Gospel of John of course.

Edited by placid, 05 October 2010 - 02:54 PM.


#2 Asif Hasan

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 04:19 PM


Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus are the oldest preserved NT manuscripts that I have heard of.
Some say the reason they have survived longer is because they were "discarded" and not worn out, etc.
They have fewer words than the Textus Receptus, so it also possible that the TR had words added to it.


#3 placid

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 06:59 AM

(To continue)

Before we go to another Scripture, I want to add a little about the Gospel, which was not a book, but the message of Good News, which is what Gospel and Injeel mean.
In the 10 translations on Quranbrowser, only one uses the word 'Injeel' in his translation instead of 'Gospel,' and one uses 'Injeel (Gospel).'
--- However, as I said above, what is in our present Bible was all in the Greek Scriptures from 400 AD.
--- I have checked a few verses in Matthew in the Codex Siniaticus with my Greek interlinear New Testament, and I don’t know Greek, but the verses are divided the same and the words are the same, or similar.
If you know someone who can read Coine Greek, you can check out any verse.

However, it has been generally accepted that Mark wrote his Gospel in Greek first, --- But, Matthew was placed first in the NT, because he was the more prolific writer.
It is understood that he wrote, “The Sayings of Jesus,” --- perhaps, while they were being spoken, and they would then be distributed among the people. They were in Aramaic which was the common language,
Then they believe that he wrote a “Gospel of Matthew” in Aramaic, so he would actually have written the first Gospel. --- As well as these both being widely distributed, the Apostles would each surely have copies of them, and they would perhaps be doing their own writing, both in their preaching and teaching ministry as well as for their own records.
--- And in the early 60’s AD, they wrote the Gospels in Greek. --- The dates are not definite, but Peter and Mark were in Rome and they determine it was between 55 and 65 that Mark wrote his. --- It is interesting that Mark interprets some words from Aramaic, which could indicate that he used the Aramaic writings of Matthew.
--- Matthew had his former material (which I believe was the mysterious Q) and he would have Mark’s Gospel to compare to. --- Matthew wrote to the Jews, so he included much that Mark did not, because Mark wrote basically for the Romans.

Paul and Luke came to Rome about 60, and Luke had been keeping records of ‘the Acts of the Apostles’ which he finalized after his Gospel.
He may have had all the research done for his Gospel long before they left Jerusalem because he would have to get the early history about the birth of Jesus from Mary.
He introduces his Gospel by saying:
1. Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which are most surely believed among us.
2. Just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
3. It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,
4. That you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed..

Luke begins the Book of Acts with these words:
1. The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.
2. Until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandment to the apostles whom He had chosen.

--- Luke completed his Gospel first, before the Book of Acts, and he may have written it when Paul was in prison, so that would place it in the early 60’s.
Matthew would have written his Gospel a little later in Antioch, but they would certainly have communication with one another.
--- Now here is the interesting thing.
These verses in Mark 16:9-20 give real insight that is not evident to the casual reader.

However, this will be enough background info for now.


Placid

#4 placid

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 07:54 AM

To continue:

16:1. Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.
2. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
3. And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?”
4. But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away—for it was very large.
5. And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.
6. But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.
7. But go, tell His disciples—and Peter—that He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, as He said to you.”
8. So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

--- 16:8 ends with the women at the tomb and being told that Jesus had risen, ‘and they said nothing to anyone for they were afraid.’

Now, the verses 9-20:
9. Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons.
10. She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they did not believe.
12. After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.
13. And they went and told it to the rest, but they did not believe them either.
14. Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18. they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19. So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.


--- If you bear in mind that Peter and Mark worked together in Rome, and Mark would get first hand information from Peter, --- they were perhaps not together all the time.--- Peter took frequent trips and Mark maybe finished his Gospel and started to have it copied and distributed.
While it is often said that Matthew copied from Mark, it would perhaps be that Mark first copied some from Matthew’s Aramaic Gospel, so they would have the same material to start from. Because Matthew’s Gospel is twrice as long as Mark’s, Matthew had extra material that pertained mainly of interest and importance to the Jews.

--- Though this is not written anywhere, --- from studying it, I would suggest the following:
--- That even some time later, perhaps, after having a copy of both Matthew and Luke’s Gospel, that Peter and Mark conferred about the ending of Mark’s Gospel and saw that it was incomplete, --- because the others had ended with the Great Commission, and the promise of the Holy Spirit filling them, which happened on the Day of Pentecost, Acts 2.
--- This was when Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, preached to the Jews from many countries, who were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. --- This was the first witness to Jews from Asia to Rome, read Acts 2:5-12.
--- So Peter was the Pentecostal Apostle, and his preaching and miracle working continued the same as what Jesus had done among them.

Verses 9-20 were written from, or by, one who was knowledgeable in the Spiritual gifts, and that would be Peter. So Peter would help Mark prepare a more complete ending by supplying what Peter experienced.

Verse 9 refers back to v 1 that Mary Magdalene was at the tomb.
--- And it add, ‘out of whom He had cast 7 demons. --- This identifies the changed tone of the writing because Jesus had cast out devils in many cases and Peter was there to see it, --- and he continued in this deliverance ministry.
10. Though they were frightened, she went and told the disciples.
11. they didn’t believe, --- but Peter responded and ran to the tomb, followed by John.
--- (John 20 also mentions this incident because Peter and John were the two involved. Though they ran to the tomb in unbelief, they saw, and believed.)
12. The two that went into the country is detailed in Luke 24:13-32.
--- It looks like this could have been copied from Luke’s Gospel because Luke wrote his Gospel also in Rome, but perhaps gave it the final form in Greece, because he wrote it for his own people, the Greeks.
13. At first none of them believed, --- though He had told them plainly that He would rise from the dead.
14. Then Jesus appeared to the eleven.
15-16 --- Is what is called the Great Commission, mentioned also by Matthew. Peter and Matthew would have heard that from Jesus as they were there, but Mark was not one of the eleven that received this commission.
17. This goes on to speak of Peter’s ministry
--- And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
--- (Referring to Signs that are evident in the Pentecostal ministry, compared to Surah 3:49, with the exception of creating a bird.)
--- (Referring again to casting out demons, as in v 9.)
--- (They will speak with new tongues, --- which is a gift of the Holy Spirit.)
18. --- (The verse you mentioned might be of interest to snake handlers).
--- It really refers to the demonic realm and not physical snakes. It is not well known to many who do not have a Spiritual ‘gift of discernment,’ and can detect the evil spirits that are around us waiting to attack, or gain entrance to our bodies.
--- While you refer to them as ‘jinn,’ which is a general name for them, the Bible identifies that there are, demons, devils, witches, vipers, unclean spirits, foul spirits, and evil spirits. These are spiritual beings that attack us in the physical. --- Jesus said, in 17, “In My name they will cast out demons.” --- and it happens today as it did in Peter’s ministry, that they are cast out in the Name of Jesus. --- (Jesus conquered Satan in going through death, and rising again.)
--- 'If they drink anything deadly,' --- this again refers to the Spiritual realm and the devil deceives in many ways to destroy us, but God protects from ‘poisins’ that we are often not aware of.
--- 'They shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover.' This is one of the great evidences of Peter’s ministry, and is still in the healing ministries today.

19. Jesus was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God, where He is today. .
20. This was the fulfilling of the Great Commission,
--- ‘And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.’

--- So, I believe this was a later addition which might have been with reference to Matthew’s Gospel as well in the fulfillment of the Great Commission, Matthew 28:18-20.

If many copies were distributed with the Gospel ending at verse 8, they would have found their way into some manuscripts. --- If the later addition had the extra verses it would be copied and distributed and would find their way into later manuscripts.

So it is more accurate to Scripture to record the inclusive manuscripts, with a notation that some manuscripts don’t contain verses 9-20, is it not?


Placid

#5 placid

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 09:53 AM

Hi Haider,

To continue:
John 7:53-8:11 Everyone's favorite Jesus story.

7:53. And everyone went to his own house.
8.1. But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2. Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them.
3. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst,
4. they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act.
5. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?”
6. This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
7. So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
8. And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
11. She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

--- You are right, this was a most popular story, because it has all the elements of intrigue. --- Sensuality, crime and punishment, religious authority, their accusation, their deceptive trap, their ulterior motive to catch Jesus in breaking the law of Moses, --- the Outsider challenging the authority, and the authority being humbled in front of the crowd of onlookers, --- and the final word to the accused.


Let’s look at it a little
The Law of Moses said in:
Lev 20:10. ‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.
Deut 22:22. “If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die—the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.

--- So, the first question is, “Where was the man that was involved? --- This made it look like a setup, did it not?
Jesus knew their intent and rather than speaking, He began to write on the ground with His finger. --- What did He write? --- Perhaps sins in their own lives. Perhaps some secret sins that would convict them. --- When they continued asking, He said, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
Then He stooped down and wrote some more on the ground.

9. 'Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one,'
--- They were convicted “by their own conscience,” which was no doubt prompted by what Jesus had written on the ground. --- They left one by one. --- What a drama.

The Hero had taken control of the situation, had saved the life of the intended victim, --- and set her free with this warning, “Go and sin no more.”
--- He didn’t say she wasn’t guilty, He offered God’s forgiveness for her past sin, but if she continued in sin, she would face the judgment, the same as the scribes and Pharisees would each face for their own un-confessed sin.

This was most popular for sure. The footnote says: --- While some omit it as not original, it is present in over 900 manuscripts. --- It is in all of our English Bibles, is it not?
For it as well, I say, it had to be in the Latin Vulgate, to be translated into the Douay. And it had to be in the Greek manuscripts that were translated into the King James Version.


Placid

#6 placid

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 05:06 PM

Hi Haider,

Now these verses:
--- (You said) Quote: 1 John 5:7-8 Only explicit statement about the Trinity, and it was a fabrication.

These are the verses in the older authorized versions, the Douay and the King James:
7. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

--- Or, --- as in some of the contemporary versions:
7. For there are three that bear witness
8. on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

--- Now which do you think was in the text when the verses were numbered?

As you say, it is the only explicit statement about the three in heaven from the beginning, but it is not a fabrication.

Muhammad said it about the same in 4:171.
“The Messiah Jesus son of Mary was a messenger of God (the Father), --- and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, --- and a Spirit from Him.
--- (But he said) --- And don’t say Three, --- God is only One God.

While it is not in some versions, it is in the Douay and the King James, which proves it was in the Latin Vulgate, and the Greek manuscripts used.

Again, it is accurate to the Scripture to include it and make a notation that it is not in some versions, is it not?

(The faulty part of the trinity is that they tried to place Jesus in heaven from the beginning, and present the three as co-equal in the Nicean Creed.
That meeting was in 325 AD and the Codex Siniaticus would not be finalized by then, so if this was in some manuscripts and not in others, they would opt to leave it out because it no longer suited their interpretation of their trinity doctrine.)

You will find that from the beginning, and through the OT, the Word and the Spirit were always Servants of God. They were not co-equal, nor partners,

In the NT where believers were baptized in the ‘name’ of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, --- that was correct also because the Word was in Jesus, --- the Word (Logos) came from God and indwelt the human body of Jesus, John 1:14.
--- Jesus was CALLED the Son, in Luke 1:35, where the angel Gabriel said:
And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

--- And being baptized in the ‘name’ singular, meant “in unison,” --- and not trinity.

(This may sound rather complicated but I will try to answer your questions.)



--- A note of interest:
In the Khalifa translation, he omits two verses in Surah 9:128-129, which say:
128. Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.
129. But if they turn away, Say: "God sufficeth me: there is no God but He: On Him is my trust, - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!"

I think this is a profound statement, --- that says:
1. Now has come an Apostle, Muhammad, from among them.
2. It grieves him that his own people should reject his message and perish
3. He is ardently anxious over his people.
4. To the believers he is most kind and merciful.
5. But if they turn away, --- Say “God is sufficient for me.”
6. “There is no God but He.”
7. “On Him is my trust.”
8. “He is the Lord of the throne (of Glory) Supreme.”

--- I could ask, --- “What is wrong with this, that he left it out, and the others included it?
Can we say there is any corruption in the Quran because 2 verses were left out?
--- “No” --- but we can say that those who have only the Khalifa translation will miss this closing statement, will they not?

--- Also, some time ago I remember someone entered a Surah that was seven or more verses longer that the Surah in the Quran, claiming that it was the proper one.
--- (I had forgotten which Surah, because I am not into trying to find differences.)
However, does that do any damage to the Quran if some other written Quran has a Surah longer than one in this Quran?
It takes away nothing but the teaching, or message in those few verses, if there was one, but it doesn’t do anything to what is written, does it?


Placid



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