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Are Christians And Jews Kafir?


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#1 Jay

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 02:28 PM

I've heard many times that Christians and Jews are Kafirs.
But, we also worship the same Monotheistic God (Just different names. Muslims worship The God that created Adam, and Christians/Jews worship that God as well).

According to Surah 109 (Al-Kafiroon)
Say : O ye that reject Faith (Kafiroon/Plural for Kafir)!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your way, and to me mine.

According this Chapter, Kafirs are people who worship a God(s) other than the God that we worship (Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì). Since Jews and Christians worship the same God as us, are they really kafirs?

Edited by Jay, 20 September 2010 - 02:28 PM.


#2 Ali_Hussain

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 02:45 PM

Whilst they may technically be kafirs (?) I find a significant verse about them to be this one

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.


As for surah al kafiroon, it is a nice one and i often read it in salah and the last line is a very important one as it sets up the attititude we should have towards those who leave us to our faith.
Although I have not read the tafsir of it, so I'm hoping my interpretation isn't too far off.

I guess it all depends what defenition of kafir you use. Remember us rafidis are kafirs as well :lol:

#3 PeaceLoving

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 05:57 PM

I've heard many times that Christians and Jews are Kafirs.

Where did you hear that and from whom ?

According to this Chapter, Kafirs are people who worship a God(s) other than the God that we worship (Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì). Since Jews and Christians worship the same God as us, are they really kafirs?

The word kafir means one who rejects.

However, in Islamic parlance, it has several different meanings. One meaning includes those who do not believe in one God and by this definition J & C are not kafirs.

Another meaning includes those who apart from God, reject the Prophet of the times or core beliefs such as Judgment Day. This definition assumes that those people have been provided with sufficient evidence.

People in the time of Moses who rejected Moses had been given sufficient evidence for the Prophethood of Moses. Likewise, people in the time of Jesus had been given sufficient evidence for the Prophethood of Jesus. And people in the time of our Prophet had been given sufficient evidence for his Prophethood. If these people rejected their Prophet, they were in the wrong and could be dubbed as Kafirs.

However, people in modern times have not been given sufficient evidence for the Prophethood of our Holy Prophet. If anything, the way Muslims are behaving today, evidence for the prophethood of our Holy Prophet is not only non-existent, it is negative. Therefore, those who believe in one God but do not believe in our Holy Prophet cannot be deemed kafirs.

In short, in modern times, a person who believes in one God cannot be called a kafir. This would apply not only to J & C but also to people of other religions.

However, please note that many Muslims for whom killing is a sport will be worse off than kafirs on the Day of Judgment. They are Muslims in name only. God will not speak to them on the Day of Judgment. The Quran describes them as mufsideen (mischief-makers).

#4 Sayed Rizvi

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 06:10 PM

Anyone who disbelieves in our Prophet is a kaffir, and anyone who doubts their kufr is himself kaffir

#5 placid

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 06:44 PM

Hi,

I just want to add something from two texts used:

109:1. Say: O disbelievers

--- The first verse identifies the ones that Muhammad was speaking to as 'disbelievers,' --- so they may have been idolaters who worshipped other gods, --- or they may have been atheists, who did not believe in a Divine God, --- or they may have been those who rejected the message Muhammad was bringing, so they were disbelievers.

That is a little different than the believers of this verse, are they not?

2:62. Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

#6 mehdi soldier

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 08:31 PM

according to a recent fatwa from ayatollah sistani,he denied that he considers sunnis as kafir.the fatwa says the kuffar are those who reject the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh).

in that light,jews and christians even though they are the "peoples of the book" are kuffar.there are verses in the quran which talks of their kufr.

also,take note that the disbelievers in the days of Muhammad (pbuh) some did recognize and believe in Allah as the almight God,while they still had lesser gods of stone and wood.those people rejected the prophet (pbuh).

also,shaytan does believe in Allah but he is still a kafir.

#7 PeaceLoving

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 09:52 PM

in that light,jews and christians even though they are the "peoples of the book" are kuffar.there are verses in the quran which talks of their kufr.

Brother

Please don't take it personally but I would like to ask you a question. What is the probability that you would have accepted the prophethood of our Holy Prophet if you had been born in a non-Muslim family ?

#8 mehdi soldier

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 07:45 AM

Brother

Please don't take it personally but I would like to ask you a question. What is the probability that you would have accepted the prophethood of our Holy Prophet if you had been born in a non-Muslim family ?

first since its not a personal issue i would like to say that the probability would be overwhelming.if it is a personal issue,because i am no better than anyone else be it a christian or muslim,then i would say Allah knows best!

since its not a personal thing,the evidence that Muhammad (pbuh) and his religion are right is overwhelming.if the new testament tells us of a prophet to come.and if this same book quoting the words of Jesus (as) says that the kingdom of God would be given to another nation,we just need to think.Muhammad (pbuh) is directly or indirectly refered to in so many places.in the songs of solomon we find his name.in isaiah 42 the prophecy fit Muhammad (pbuh) and can fit no one else.note that i am not here tallking with islamic references or the quran as to why Muhammad (pbuh) was the truth.i am only talking as i would to a christian.

believe brother,my best friend who i share everything with and is close to me is a Jehovah's witness.we have argued alot of times until he refuses to talk with me anything religion.still yet,i try my best to make sure i pass my message to him.and after so many evidence i have put forth to him,he is not the same person he was religiously as when i first knew him years back.i can see that he is shaken and resign.if you know who the jehovah's witnesses are you'd know that these people are taught well in their kingdom halls and prepared ahead of time in how to "fight" others.they are the most organized of all christians.i have also encountered some of them on their preaching work and talked about the prophecy of daniel 2.that encounter actually made me to open a thread on that subject.after talking with them,and they do reason things,you can see them accepting the truth with the looks of their eyes but their mouth cannot utter it!!!so unfortunate.their tactics/tricks/games is similar to that of "Placid's" an sometimes make me think if "Placid" is a jehovah's witness in disguise.

different people have different reasons for seeing and accepting the truth.seeing the truth and knowing it and understanding it is one thing.accepting it and acting upon it is another thing.the job of those who know the truth is to spread it.that is what we should all do and we should not shy away from it.i really love sheikh ahmed deedat so much that if i am to have one laylatul-qadri wish,is for Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì to bring him back to life.i as a shia,i am really jealous that we dont have a man like deedat who would stand to arrogant individuals who deliberately mislead the multitudes face to face confronting them.deedat used to literally crush them into pieces of dust.wallah we need a man like him at alll times.these christian missionaries play on emotions and feeding people and doing charity to get a soul in return.this is shameful.people should be taught and educated and made to understand what is black and what is white.they need to know the difference and see the truth.if they follow it good for them,if not they will one day face Allah to account for that decision.

also when we talk of kufr,as a muslim,we are not sentencing anyone to hell.there are some people on earth who are ignorant and illitrate and dont even know islam exists.Allah knows best how to judge each and everyone.our job is to make the truth know and enlighten as many people as possible and lay hujjah (proof) upon them so that they will have no excuse they did not receive the message.

Edited by mehdi soldier, 21 September 2010 - 07:47 AM.


#9 Shia Shahid

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 04:22 PM

Among the Jews and Christians there are many who are kaffir and a quiet few who are believers.

But even a kaffir Christian or a kaffir Jew is not beyond redemption. We always pray for Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì to guide more of them to the truth so that they become believers. Many kuffar will convert to Islam and thus be saved from the hell fire. The only guaranteed way to be in hell for all eternity is to DIE as a kaffir.

#10 gogiison2

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 05:00 PM

Verses with their transliterations:

[4:150] Shakir: Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and (those who) desire to make a distinction between Allah and His messengers and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and desire to take a course between (this and) that.
'Inna Al-Ladhīna Yakfurūna Bil-Lahi Wa Rusulihi Wa Yurīdūna 'An Yufarriqū Bayna Al-Lahi Wa Rusulihi Wa Yaqūlūna Nu'uminu Biba`đin Wa Nakfuru Biba`đin Wa Yurīdūna 'An Yattakhidhū Bayna Dhālika Sabīlāan

[4:151] Shakir: These it is that are truly unbelievers, and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.
'Ūlā'ika Humu Al-Kāfirūna Ĥaqqāan ۚ Wa 'A`tadnā Lilkāfirīna `Adhābāan Muhīnāan

#11 PeaceLoving

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 11:00 PM

The only guaranteed way to be in hell for all eternity is to DIE as a kaffir.

I don't think it is a good idea to pre-empt God's judgment. Let us leave the job of judgment to Him.

#12 Asif Hasan

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 12:00 PM

Anyone who disbelieves in our Prophet is a kaffir, and anyone who doubts their kufr is himself kaffir

Sure, but the really important question of the day is:
What would you rather be: a kaffir, a dog, or a pig?


"Do not give what is holy to the dogs;
nor cast your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn and tear you to pieces."
(Jesus, Matthew 7:6)



#13 Jay

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:37 PM

Sure, but the really important question of the day is:
What would you rather be: a kaffir, a dog, or a pig?


"Do not give what is holy to the dogs;
nor cast your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn and tear you to pieces."
(Jesus, Matthew 7:6)


Umm.. none. All these things are Najis.
What exactly does that have to do with ANYTHING were talking about? And what does that verse mean?

Edited by Jay, 29 September 2010 - 04:38 PM.


#14 Asif Hasan

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:19 PM

And what does that verse (Matthew 7:6) mean?

Don't feel bad. Other people don't know what the Bible (esp. Injil) is saying either.
(Hint: the verse is referring to enemies of the gospel)
It's not a history book; it's a deep spiritual Book.
It's really understood only by spiritual revelation.


“And I will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you (as the Holy Spirit).
… And We (God) will come to him (the believer) and make Our home with him.
… But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things
that I said to you.” (Jesus, John 14:16--26)

The Greek word here for "another" is "allos" meaning "another of the same kind".
The Holy Spirit was promised to be in believers after Jesus ascended into heaven.


This, of course, is one of the many verses which reveal the Triune God.

Note: You can Google stuff all day long to try and figure things out, but ...

Edited by Asif Hasan, 29 September 2010 - 07:19 PM.


#15 Jay

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:41 PM

^Listen, I don't care about that. You put up this verse, Matthew 7:6:
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs;
nor cast your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn and tear you to pieces."

I want to know its relevance to this topic.
And btw, the Bible is NOT the Injeel. The Injeel was the original scripture sent down to the Prophet Jesus (as) to the Children of Israel. The Injeel was the original Word of God. I don't know what exactly has happened to the original Injeel (if it exists today at all). I'd rather put my faith in the Quran, an untouched Holy Scripture, then the Bible, a scripture in which has been changed many times and has many different copies.

#16 nemesis

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 11:13 PM

^Listen, I don't care about that. You put up this verse, Matthew 7:6:
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs;
nor cast your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn and tear you to pieces."

I want to know its relevance to this topic.
And btw, the Bible is NOT the Injeel. The Injeel was the original scripture sent down to the Prophet Jesus (as) to the Children of Israel. The Injeel was the original Word of God. I don't know what exactly has happened to the original Injeel (if it exists today at all). I'd rather put my faith in the Quran, an untouched Holy Scripture, then the Bible, a scripture in which has been changed many times and has many different copies.


(bismillah)
Salem Brother Jay

The Bible was passed down from G_D to Jesus (pbuh) and he was the word of G_D , you are correct in saying that the Bible has been written in many forms , the Armenian Apostolic Church who was the first christian nation, believes in the Nicene Creed.

The Purtiy in the Armenian Apostolic faith is the reason why we have survived for so long as faithful servants of G_D because his word is One which was passed down to his son and to the 12 apostales which we dictate.

The Nicene Creed is a confession of our Christian faith. According to Holy Tradition, the Nicene Creed was composed on Pentecost by the twelve apostles. The creed contains twelve articles of Faith, each one written by one of the apostles.

When members of the Church began to teach incorrect or heretical opinions, it became necessary to elaborate on the Creed, based on the teaching of our Lord, which would refute false teachings and guard against them. The Ecumenical Council of Nicea (325 AD) adopted this Creed and it was completed at the subsequent Ecumenical Councils of Constantinople (381 AD) and Ephesus (431 AD).

The Creed was first used during the rite of the sacrament of Baptism. In 215 A.D., the Church Father and historian Hippolytus, in his work entitled the Apostolic Tradition, recorded that the Creed was recited in its entirety during the sacrament of Baptism. The Creed came to be used in the Divine Liturgy late in the fifth century. The purpose of placing it there was to prevent deviations of the faithful from the Orthodox faith.

The Creed is followed by an anathema, which refutes the heretical teachings. The historical value of the anathema is it indicates the false doctrines that were in existence during the early days of the Church. St. Gregory the Illuminator abridged the Creed by adding a doxology, which appears following the Anathema. A doxology is a short expression of praise or thanksgiving to God.

The saying of the last word of the Creed, "Amen", is postponed in the Armenian Divine Liturgy until after the doxology of Saint Gregory.

Nicene Creed

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten and not made; himself of the nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate, became man, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried

And rose again on the third day

And ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of whose kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect, who spake in the law in and in the prophets and in the gospels. Who came down upon the Jordan, preached to the apostles and dwelt in the saints.

We believe also in the only One Catholic and Apostolic Holy Church.

In one baptism of repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins.

In the resurrection of the dead,

In the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

Amen.

Anathema

"As for those who say there was a time when the Son was not or there was a time when the Holy Spirit was not or that they came into being out of nothing or who say that the Son of God or the Holy Spirit be of different substance and that they be changeable or alterable, such doth the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematize."

Doxology of St. Gregory

As for us we shall glorify Him was before the ages, worshiping the Holy Trinity and the One God-head, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and for ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.


The Armenian church


I hope this helps you understand one aspect of the christian faith in it's purity .

N

Edited by nemesis, 29 September 2010 - 11:15 PM.


#17 Jay

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:23 AM

(bismillah)
Salem Brother Jay

The Bible was passed down from G_D to Jesus (pbuh) and he was the word of G_D , you are correct in saying that the Bible has been written in many forms , the Armenian Apostolic Church who was the first christian nation, believes in the Nicene Creed.

As I've explained above, the Bible is not the word of God, nor the book Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì sent to Jesus Christ (as). That would be the Injeel, or the Gospel.
But thanks for sharing ^^

#18 Asif Hasan

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:07 AM

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God of God, light of light,
very God of very God, begotten and not made; himself of the nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate, became man, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

It's a shame that the Creed didn't explain somehow exactly what "(only) begotten" means
... beyond just saying "not made".

FIRST of all … GOD did NOT have a Son as we use the word.
There was NO Son as a result of: GOD + female = GOD-Child.

The Greek word “monogenes” is translated “only-begotten” in English, and it means “unique, one of a kind”.
It suggests a one and only son; and it does not necessarily convey the idea of a birth.
And it has nothing to do with “ktizo” (to create), or “ginomai” (to be made, to become) as used in John1:14.

“You are My Son, today I have begotten you” (Psalm 2:7, which is quoted in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5)
This refers to Father God raising up the Son of God to great earthly prominence on the day
when He was baptised in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit,
and His earthly ministry began (to fulfil Father God’s incredible plan).

For example, Issac is called Abraham’s only-begotten in Hebrew 11:17,
but he actually had two sons (Ishmael and Isaac).
Issac was the unique son of promise, and would be a major link in the Royal lineage of the Messiah:
Abraham > Isaac > Jacob > Judah > David > Jesus

The Son of God is the Father’s one and only, His unique Son.
Although the Father has begotten many children through the new birth (John 1:12,13),
none of these are exactly like jesus Christ, the unique Son of God.

All who trust Christ are born of God, and these “born ones” are called “children of God” (John 1:12,13 above).
But, Jesus Christ is the unique Son of God. He is the only son who is fully God.

http://www.bibletrut...ves/BTARO16.htm

Edited by Asif Hasan, 30 September 2010 - 10:11 AM.


#19 placid

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:58 AM

Hi Nemesis,

1. The Nicene Creed is a confession of our Christian faith. According to Holy Tradition, the Nicene Creed was composed on Pentecost by the twelve apostles. The creed contains twelve articles of Faith, each one written by one of the apostles.

2. When members of the Church began to teach incorrect or heretical opinions, it became necessary to elaborate on the Creed, based on the teaching of our Lord, which would refute false teachings and guard against them.


--- 1. The Nicean Creed was prepared by the Nicean Council in 325. --- They no doubt referred to and examined the original 'Apostles Creed,' and found that it didn't exalt Jesus to the position of being in heaven before He was born on earth.

The Apostles Creed was what came from the Apostles, and it is as follows, which you can find often in older hymnbooks, and
it is still repeated in Churches on certain occasions. --- It was the Apostles' Statement of Faith, and has not been changed:

The Apostles' Creed
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.
--- (Note --- the word 'catholic' means 'universal,' --- and does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church.)

2. It seems evident that the Church had started teaching that Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth, and this conflicted with the Christian groups that still taught according to the Apostles Creed
The council made up of men were perhaps well meaning in trying to simplify an understanding of the Godhead, --- but they were the ones in error. The proof that this new Creed was the work of men was that it caused division and death.
--- The Church began to impose this new teaching on all Christians and those who didn't comply were pursecuted or put to death, --- Now, do you think that action came from God, or from men?

The Godhead consisted of God, the Father, the Word (Logos), and the Holy Spirit. --- there are three,
The word trinity came from tri-unity, --- but their relationship does not make them co-equal, as the trinity teaches, does it?

There are many Churches that acknowledge both creeds, but the fact that the Apostles Creed is still with us, speaks of its authenticity.

If we examine the Scripture, in John 1, --- it said "The Word" (Logos) was with God in the beginning.
--- It was through the Word that all things were created. --- The Word was the active force in creation, and in the Quran it is expressed in the coming of one who would be CALLED God's Son as, --- "Be!" and it is.
Notice this verse in Surah 3:
47. Mary said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?
He said: So it will be. God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only, --- "Be!" and it is.

John 1:14 says, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
--- Since Jesus was born into a human body from Mary, He would have her DNA, would He not?
However, the Word (Logos, which was with God in the beginning) was in Him. --- So He had a human body and divine Spirit.

The Word came and - 'took on a body of flesh' - in the person of Jesus.

Jesus was born on earth, He lived on earth, and He died on earth, --- The Word was with Him when He went to the lower parts of the earth, but because the Word was able to conquer death through Jesus, --- the Spiritual body of Jesus was resurrected, and, after His witness on earth, He ascended to heaven.
So the Word completed God's plan of redemption for mankind through Jesus, and returned to sit again at the right hand of God. --- However, in heaven, He is now called Jesus, as He was called on earth.

I know, this may add more confusion, but if you have questions, let's discuss it.


Placid

#20 nemesis

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 04:53 PM

Hi Nemesis,

1. The Nicene Creed is a confession of our Christian faith. According to Holy Tradition, the Nicene Creed was composed on Pentecost by the twelve apostles. The creed contains twelve articles of Faith, each one written by one of the apostles.

2. When members of the Church began to teach incorrect or heretical opinions, it became necessary to elaborate on the Creed, based on the teaching of our Lord, which would refute false teachings and guard against them.


--- 1. The Nicean Creed was prepared by the Nicean Council in 325. --- They no doubt referred to and examined the original 'Apostles Creed,' and found that it didn't exalt Jesus to the position of being in heaven before He was born on earth.

The Apostles Creed was what came from the Apostles, and it is as follows, which you can find often in older hymnbooks, and
it is still repeated in Churches on certain occasions. --- It was the Apostles' Statement of Faith, and has not been changed:

The Apostles' Creed
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.
--- (Note --- the word 'catholic' means 'universal,' --- and does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church.)

2. It seems evident that the Church had started teaching that Jesus was in heaven before He was born on earth, and this conflicted with the Christian groups that still taught according to the Apostles Creed
The council made up of men were perhaps well meaning in trying to simplify an understanding of the Godhead, --- but they were the ones in error. The proof that this new Creed was the work of men was that it caused division and death.
--- The Church began to impose this new teaching on all Christians and those who didn't comply were pursecuted or put to death, --- Now, do you think that action came from God, or from men?

The Godhead consisted of God, the Father, the Word (Logos), and the Holy Spirit. --- there are three,
The word trinity came from tri-unity, --- but their relationship does not make them co-equal, as the trinity teaches, does it?

There are many Churches that acknowledge both creeds, but the fact that the Apostles Creed is still with us, speaks of its authenticity.

If we examine the Scripture, in John 1, --- it said "The Word" (Logos) was with God in the beginning.
--- It was through the Word that all things were created. --- The Word was the active force in creation, and in the Quran it is expressed in the coming of one who would be CALLED God's Son as, --- "Be!" and it is.
Notice this verse in Surah 3:
47. Mary said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?
He said: So it will be. God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only, --- "Be!" and it is.

John 1:14 says, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
--- Since Jesus was born into a human body from Mary, He would have her DNA, would He not?
However, the Word (Logos, which was with God in the beginning) was in Him. --- So He had a human body and divine Spirit.

The Word came and - 'took on a body of flesh' - in the person of Jesus.

Jesus was born on earth, He lived on earth, and He died on earth, --- The Word was with Him when He went to the lower parts of the earth, but because the Word was able to conquer death through Jesus, --- the Spiritual body of Jesus was resurrected, and, after His witness on earth, He ascended to heaven.
So the Word completed God's plan of redemption for mankind through Jesus, and returned to sit again at the right hand of God. --- However, in heaven, He is now called Jesus, as He was called on earth.

I know, this may add more confusion, but if you have questions, let's discuss it.


Placid


Blessings to you brother Placid ..

Thanks for sharing that with us , i'm in no way a expert in the Gospels a mere Christian who has faith only ONE God and Christ the redeemer , love for all man kind no matter the faith .
I suppose more confusion will steer me away from the real meaning of the Gospels and the teachings of Christ .

We pray to G_D to keep all man kind safe and all who are on this forum.

Amen

N

Edited by nemesis, 01 October 2010 - 04:54 PM.


#21 placid

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 07:02 AM

Hi Nemesis,

Thanks,

We have gone over these teachings often on Shiachat.
Often someone will say, "tradition says, --- which is okay, but if tradition is misleading, it can add confusion.

I hope that the more you read the NT, the more you will enjoy it.

Blessings,

#22 TrueImam

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 07:30 AM

It's simpel, Jews and Christians are Ahl Al Kitab. Not kafirs.



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