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The Ismaili Ginans


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#1 princevisram

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 11:56 PM


WHO ARE THE ISMAILIS?


“The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims, generally known as the Ismailis, belong to the Shia branch of Islam. The Shia form one of the two major branches of Islam, the Sunni being the other. The Ismailis live in over 25 different countries, mainly in Central and South Asia, Africa and the Middle East, as well as in Europe, North America and Australia.” (FULL ARTICLE)

WHAT ARE THE GINANS?

The Ginans (Urdu: گنان, Gujarati: ગિનાન) are a vast corpus of devotional literature in the form of lyrics and hymns worshiping and praising God, and has been the living tradition of Nizari Ismailis particularly from South Asia. The word is Hindustani, and derived from the Sanskrit word jñāna ("knowledge, wisdom, gnosis"). Pir Sadardin was an early pioneer of this form of literature. (SOURCE: WIKIPEDIA)

I decided, because I thought it would be nice to share, a few selected quotes that reflect the whole of the Muslim Ummah. I just thought that it would be nice to show what many people don't know about the Ismaili tradition. Many people negative talk it in a sense and say it is not considered a way of Islam, so I just thought I would share these to explain:

Selected Quotes on Allah



Eji heit preet man bhavsu tame japo Allah Rasool
Kalma Kaho dil Paak su to kul vigh hove dur


Translation: With love and true heart do zikar of Allah and Rasool. If you say Kalma with pure heart than all problems will be vanished.

Eji Kalma Kaho Rasool ka jo sab katee paap ne vikh
Par sab fana hovegi baqi raheinge Khuda Rasool

Translation: Say Kalma of Rasool [PBUH] who vanishes sins and poison. Every thing will come to end except Allah and Rasool [PBUH]

ejee allaah ek khasam sabukaa, duneeyaa usakee saaree
aveechal naam khudaava(n)d bhanneeye
or sab meetteeyaa keree baajee
illaahee bhed ta(n)tav naam leeje
aapnne jeevdde kee chee(n)taa re momanbhaai keeje
aapne jeevddeku(n) dozakh na deeje..illaahee.................1


Allah is the only Lord of everything, the entire world is His(or under His command).
Understand the name(attribute) of the Lord as being eternal and everlasting and
the rest is all perishable and illusory. Extract(or obtain) the Divine mysteries from
the essence of His name(by constant remembrance and contemplation).
O brother momins, be mindful about the condition of your souls and do not
condemn your souls to hell.

ejee avichal Allah avichal khaalak
avichal kaaem dayaal eji.....................................1

Everlasting is Allah, everlasting is the Creator, everlasting is the Enduring and Merciful One.

8) Eji Char ved char kitab khojiya,
Satguru sarve tya(n)ae,
Ilm Allah jiae bhejiaa,
Farad farmaviya Furkqan mahain. Cheto......


8. (Allah has sent) four Kitabs (scriptures) - Tawrat, Zabur,
Injil, Furqan - and four Hindu scriptures (the
Veds) -
the right Guru is mentioned in those scriptures (OR Imam Shah
has studied those scriptures). That knowledge
was sent by Allah and it is presently in the Quran.

* * * Note: Keep in mind that the Pirs were trying to convert Hindus * * *

ejee ham dil khaalaq, Allah sohee vasejee,
jene kaayam kudarat chalaai..................ebhee Allah.....1

In our hearts, resides Allah the Creator; the same Lord Allah who establishes
and sustains the everlasting nature and creation..He is indeed the Lord.

ejee alakh seerevo baanaa aapannu(n)
baanaa sachthee kareeyo kamaai...Allah yaad kareeyojee.......1

O brother! worship your indescribable(Lord). O brother! truthfully perform rewarding deeds. Always remember Allah.

yaa khudaava(n)d, taaree karannee no paar Allah tu(n)hee-j jaanne
evo peere mukhe naam bhannaayaa jee.............7


Oh Lord: Allah, it is only You who can fathom the limits of Your
(creative) actions. This is the word (concept) taught
through the mouth of the Peer.

Selected Quotes on the Quran and the Beloved Prophet


9) Eji Farad Furqane thi upanya,
Teto parvariya pirothami mahain,
Shariyat, tariqat, haqiqat, teni,
Malum che marifat mahain. Cheto.....


9. The Quran has given you the basic understanding of Shariat,
Tariqat and Haqiqat - it is up
to you now to search for Marifat.

7) Eji Noor thi Nooraj pragatiya,
Teno vas che Nooraj mahain,
Tene aa Satpa(n)th peda kidha,
Khoji kadiyo Kuran mahain. Cheto.....

7) The Noor in the Imam of the Time is the same that was the cause
of creation and really is from the very Noor you have been given the
Satpanth,nay, even the Quran originated from that Noor.

16) Eji Te Aelm Ali thi pragatya,
Teni sankh che Kuran mahain,
Kuran kudarat mahain thi utarya,
Teni sankh che ae ghar mahain. Cheto....

16. The right knowledge has come from Ali and His progeny as is
borne (forecast) by the Holy Quran and the
Holy Quran has come from God Himself (Qudrat) and the proof

162) Eji Ali nabi thi je satpanth chaliaa
Tene sreviay gupt aapar
Atharvedi aa panth kahiae
Te to khojiya kuran minjar Cheto....

162. The religion that has been introduced to you by Ali and Nabi, observe
it within yourself for truly this religion
is from the time of creation and you can find its proof in the Holy Quran.

270) Eji Te mahain andha na jane aetloon
Je panjtan sarikha kem thashe tran yaar
Jene kudrat mahain thi kitab otariya
Bijoon aaviya duldul ne zulfiqar
Cheto....


[ Previous Verse: 269. Bahauddin did not believe in Ali or Nabi. (This is actually a story I will post separately later in this same thread, its very interesting!)

270. It's like a blind man who cannot see that Panjtan Pak is the cause of
these
three entities: the Holy Quran, Dul Dul (the horse) and Zulfiqar (the sword).
of all that is really here in Satpanth (this Ghar)

padde kuraan kitaabaa buje
to tuje raah nabeekee suje........................................7


And then he/she studies the Holy Quran, he/she gets the real understanding of the Path of the Prophet.

jo mukh ahmad keraa buje
raah nira(n)jan aape suje.........................................8


When a person understands the teachings of Muhammed, he/she gets the realization of the path towards the unknowable(God).

re tu(n)hee, ...
jo buje maarag peer sadardeen keraa
jo hae sadaa kabul re
sab nabee-o(n)ke sartaaj hae
so dule nabee rasul re....................................XXXIII


Translation: Those who recognise the path taught by Pir Sadardeen know the sirat-ul-mustaqeem(True Path): Pir Sadardeen is like a crown on Hazrat nabi's head and nabi is the King...Salvaat.

Eji naam Nabi ka meetha hai jaisa sakar ne doodh
Kalma kaho dil sach su to bandho shafaat mol


Translation: The name of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] is sweet like sugar and milk. If you will say Kalma will true heart then you will get wealth of Shafaat.

Ejee bujore bhai chatra kon tannaa
Chatra Nabi Muhammad Mustapha tanna jee


Translation: Whose Protection is worth taking? Protection of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] is worth .

Please share your positive comments and try not to be rude or judgemental; besides Hazrat Ali himself has said: "People oppose what they are ignorant about."

**Oh yah! I don't mind adding more Ginanic-based stories and such, i think it would be great to share. I'm just afraid of criticism and negative comments so I will wait and see how this post goes first...

Edited by princevisram, 02 August 2010 - 12:34 AM.


#2 Sehnsucht

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:23 AM

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. :)

Could you explain #270?

Are such ghinaan/dhikr regarded as the equivalent of salah for Ismailis, or is there a different process for salah?

Do non-South Asian Ismailis simply do dhikr in their own languages, or has Gujarati become an Ismaili standard in the vein of Arabic?

#3 princevisram

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 01:16 PM

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. :)

Could you explain #270?


Number 270 is actually a story based on Baha-ud-din Zakariya If you have trouble understanding or following the story, just post and I will explain.

Here are the verses between and before, explaining the story (go to number 215 to begin the story) - Its really interesting

Are such ghinaan/dhikr regarded as the equivalent of salah for Ismailis, or is there a different process for salah?


Absolutely not! Ginans are a tradition and are history that has been held on to too tight by the general Jamat (in my own opinion). I feel that the Ginans are very important, but should be studied by people at the IIS and be kept for historical reasons and not for recitation everyday in the Jamat (although I do not mind this myself as they are extremely interesting)..

Do non-South Asian Ismailis simply do dhikr in their own languages, or has Gujarati become an Ismaili standard in the vein of Arabic?


As for Salah, prayer is done in Arabic and is named "Holy Du'a". Though the majority of the Jamat does not speak Arabic (having their forefathers being converted from Hinduism; speaking Hindi, Gujarati and other Indian dialects) the Imam has mentioned in his Farmans to learn the meaning of this Arabic prayer and understand it at heart. It is a combination of the Imam's composition and selected verses from the Qu'ran that reflect Shia Islam. The Holy Du'a is approximately 7 minutes in length if recited in proper Arabic. At no point can prayer be recited in English or Gujarati except for learning it's meanings, but the standard prayer must be recited in the universal language of Islam. The Ismaili Holy Du'a is recited three times a day using the following quote from the Quran as a base:

[11:114] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.

The universal Salah recited by the majority of other Muslims (recited and followed by the Prophet) is recited twice a year on the Eid celebrations. I personally know both prayers by heart.

Dhikr is also recited in tasbihs known in the Ismaili traditions as "Zikr Tasbihs":

- Allah Humma Salli 'Alaa Sayyidinaa Wa Maulana Muhammadin
- Allahu akbar
- Ya Allah
- Ya Wahab
- Ya Ali
- Allahus Samad
- Ya Ali Ya Muhammad
- Subban Allah
- Al Humdu Lila
- Shukran Lilah Wal Hamdu Lililah
- Ya Rahman Ya Rahim
- There are more like Nade Ali but are recited at times of difficulties

The tasbihs above are recited by most Ismailis before bed and whenever possible - on the bus, in the car, wherever - and most Ismailis have a rosary with them for this reason.
On major occasions like: Eid-e-Miladun Nabi, Hazar Imams Birthday, and others, these are recited with the whole Jamat.

Ya Ali Ya Muhammad is also incorporated as a part of the Holy Du'a. The Shahada is also incorporated in the Du'a, meaning it is recited by Ismailis three times a day.

#4 doobybrother

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 01:59 PM

So you do not offer Salat like the rest of muslims.....five Salats having 2,4,4,3 and 4 rakats?
And you have subsituted Salat by duas composed by the hazir imam?

Kalma Kaho dil Paak su to kul vigh hove dur

what is the Ismaili kalima?

Thanks...

Edited by doobybrother, 02 August 2010 - 02:15 PM.


#5 princevisram

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:29 PM

So you do not offer Salat like the rest of muslims.....five Salats having 2,4,4,3 and 4 rakats?
And you have subsituted Salat by duas composed by the hazir imam?

what is the Ismaili kalima?

Thanks...



"Holy Du'a consists of 18 Raka'ahs as opposed to the 17 of Sunni or Ithna'ashari Salah." (Read Wiki Here)

Anyway, this composition is said three times a day (once in the early morning and twice in the evening) and the standard Salat recited by the rest of the Muslims is not recited, however, generally many know it. I personally, when not around a Jamat Khana, would join a local Masjid in their prayer as I see nothing wrong or different.

Each of the six verses of the Du'a start with Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim and end with Allahuma Laka-shujudi watati (To thee [Allah] is my prostration and obedience). They have many selected verses of the Quran including Surah Fatiha and Surah Al Ikhlas..

The Kalima, also Kalma or Shahada is known (in the Ismaili tradition):

lâ ilâha illallâh, Muḥammadur rasûlullâh ‘Aliyun amreel momineen aliyu l-Lāh

or

ʾašhadu ʾan lā ilāha illa (A)llāh, wa ʾašhadu ʾanna Muḥammada(n) rasūlo (A)llāh wa- ʾašhadu ʾan ‘Aliyun amreel momineen aliyu l-Lāh

Edited by princevisram, 02 August 2010 - 08:35 PM.


#6 89jghur32

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:20 PM

What is the basis for 18 rak`ah instead of the 17 rak`ah offered by the majority of Muslims? What composes a single rak`at? You mentioned sujud in your last post. Is this a physical sujud or something that's more esoteric? What about the rest of the prayer, what physical acts are included in it other than sitting?

Juzak Allahu khair

#7 real0019

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 05:59 PM

What is the basis for 18 rak`ah instead of the 17 rak`ah offered by the majority of Muslims? What composes a single rak`at? You mentioned sujud in your last post. Is this a physical sujud or something that's more esoteric? What about the rest of the prayer, what physical acts are included in it other than sitting?

Juzak Allahu khair

Perhaps I can answer your questions a bit more clearly, insh'Allah. When he says '18 raka'a' he's actually referring to the 6 parts within each du'a, which is actually very different than the rak'a that you and I pray. The du'a (with no wudhu prior to it) consists of sitting the entire time with occasionally raising the hands and somewhat of prostrations.

#8 princevisram

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:42 PM

Perhaps I can answer your questions a bit more clearly, insh'Allah. When he says '18 raka'a' he's actually referring to the 6 parts within each du'a, which is actually very different than the rak'a that you and I pray. The du'a (with no wudhu prior to it) consists of sitting the entire time with occasionally raising the hands and somewhat of prostrations.


You are right about the six parts and how they do differ from the rak'ah that you pray; however, I do not understand why you had emphasized "somewhat" as they are full sujud...

Allahuma Laka-shujudi watati (To thee [Allah] is my prostration and obedience)

At these six times throughout the Du'a, we fully reach our heads to the floor in prostration. The elders who cannot do so raise their hands to their heads from the floor - this is not done by all but only those who are physically unable to do proper sujud.

I wish I could post the Du'a here, I'm sure the most of you readers would find it interesting; however it says right in the front cover of the Du'a book: "For Shia Imami Ismaili Mulsims Only" and it is copyrighted by the Shia Imami Ismaili Council for Canada... If you would like to read it I would recommend contacting the local Ismaili Council and explaining your interest in learning and I am sure they will provide you with the text:

Ismaili Council for Ontario: 416-751-4001

If you would like to learn more about the religion in general, only refer to official websites below:

The Ismaili http://www.theismaili.org
Aga Khan Development Network (AKDN) http://www.akdn.org
Focus Humanitarian Assistance http://www.akdn.org/focus
Institute of Ismaili Studies (IIS) http://www.iis.ac.uk

---

Though I am not allowed to post the Du'a, I do not see why I cannot post the Quran Ayats selected into the prayer:

1:02, 4:59, 36:12, 48:10, and of course:

"Say, it is Allah. (who is) the One. Allah is Absolute, Independent. He did not beget nor He was begotten and there is none like unto Him. (Surat-ul-lkhlas)
O ye who believe, do not betray Allah and the Apostle and do not betray your trusts while you know." (8:27)

These are the verses which are incorporated into it.

---

New Ginan Story Time! :

ALAKH SREVO BANA HET DHARI
Pir Hasanshah

O you believers serve God, the undescribable, with full submission, obedience and affection;
For the only source of our hope in His (Hazir Imam's) house.
...1
By searching and searching Pir has found the inner secret.
(The secret is that) The house of Hazir Imam is the true source.
...2
Moosa offered a feast to the Lord.
(And he) Moosa, cooked a great quantity of food, which took six months (to finish).
...3
Moosa began to prepare food and make a big collection of it;
And that was such a big collection which had no end or limit.
...4
Moosa could not recognize the unknown person,
When He came with a bronze begging a bowl in hand.
...5
Give, O Moosa, something in the name of the Lord,
I have come with a hope of receiving something.
...6
Moosa ordered his maid to give food to the beggar
The maid brought stale rice for the beggar.
...7
Moosa (then) himself sat quietly in deep meditation (of God)
(In it) He realized that it was the same person and the same bowl.
...8
If I had known the Lord would come, I would have spread silk as a carpet in the street,
(And) sprinkled sweet perfumes and scents of amber.
...9
(To persuade the Lord) Moosa himself went into the holy presence
of the Lord, "O Lord! (Please do come, otherwise) the food gets stale".
...10
The Lord said, "O Moosa, collect all the food near the water,
I will come at the late hours in the day".
...11
The Lord ordered Moosa, "Bring the food on the bank of the river".
...12
The Lord ordered the fish to eat all that fo The fish ate it (the whole lot of food) in a single morsel.
...13
The fish made a complaint of distress before the Lord,
"O Lord, not even one side of mine is filled, (and I am still hungry)".
...14
(How wonderful it is) That inside a dry rock is found a live insect with a green blade of grass in its mouth.
...15
In this sweetest Ginan, Pir Hasanshah describes,
"Such is the wonderful display of the power of my Lord".
...16

It is very interesting to note that this story is thoroughly explained in a Sufi book, meaning this story must be popular. Here are the pages from the book:

First Page
Second Page

#9 89jghur32

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:22 AM

You are right about the six parts and how they do differ from the rak'ah that you pray; however, I do not understand why you had emphasized "somewhat" as they are full sujud...

Allahuma Laka-shujudi watati (To thee [Allah] is my prostration and obedience)

At these six times throughout the Du'a, we fully reach our heads to the floor in prostration. The elders who cannot do so raise their hands to their heads from the floor - this is not done by all but only those who are physically unable to do proper sujud.

I wish I could post the Du'a here, I'm sure the most of you readers would find it interesting; however it says right in the front cover of the Du'a book: "For Shia Imami Ismaili Mulsims Only" and it is copyrighted by the Shia Imami Ismaili Council for Canada... If you would like to read it I would recommend contacting the local Ismaili Council and explaining your interest in learning and I am sure they will provide you with the text:


Is the prostration the same as the one completed by most Muslims? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, and a simple yes or no would do.

By the way, I don't really appreciate the secrecy regarding the du`a. Whereas the majority of scholars and authorities amongst the Shi`ite and Sunni schools have not tried to withhold knowledge transmitted in their works even when these works are protected by copyright (the works are available online), this du`a is kept from the masses via full use of the copyright. It's just a criticism, and I don't mean to sound harsh. However, I don't appreciate the active abstention of knowledge.

#10 macisaac

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:46 AM

Is the prostration the same as the one completed by most Muslims? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, and a simple yes or no would do.

By the way, I don't really appreciate the secrecy regarding the du`a. Whereas the majority of scholars and authorities amongst the Shi`ite and Sunni schools have not tried to withhold knowledge transmitted in their works even when these works are protected by copyright (the works are available online), this du`a is kept from the masses via full use of the copyright. It's just a criticism, and I don't mean to sound harsh. However, I don't appreciate the active abstention of knowledge.



Not a neutral page for sure (he's an ex-Ismaili) but this appears to be the du`a:


http://www.mostmerci...com/dua-one.htm
http://www.mostmerci...com/dua-two.htm

just noticed a typo in one place, but otherwise it pretty much matches what I listened to on here:

http://www.ismaili.n...onomy/term/3029

It is not salat even though they include al-Fatiha. In it there is also some pretty clear ghulw (where they say `Ali Allah) and they appear to be praying in parts to the Agha Khan.

#11 89jghur32

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:11 AM

Not a neutral page for sure (he's an ex-Ismaili) but this appears to be the du`a:

http://www.mostmerci...com/dua-one.htm
http://www.mostmerci...com/dua-two.htm

just noticed a typo in one place, but otherwise it pretty much matches what I listened to on here:

http://www.ismaili.n...onomy/term/3029

It is not salat even though they include al-Fatiha. In it there is also some pretty clear ghulw (where they say `Ali Allah) and they appear to be praying in parts to the Agha Khan.


The author seemed to be quite confrontational, although I can understand why. There are many parts of this du`a that don't sit well with me, namely the testimony of faith recited in the second of the sixth parts of the du`a and the numerous instances in which the Agha Khan is glorified. It's as if he has a higher status than Allah (`s).

What I don't really understand is how Ismailis have been able to nullify so many parts of the religion by claiming to be focusing on the inner, more important aspects of the faith. If this were really a precedent for modifying or nullifying certain religious practices, then what's the excuse for the Sufis? They dabble in the batini aspects of Islam as well, but haven't nullified the zaheri aspects of the faith.

May Allah (`j) protect us.

Edited by ninjaslim, 04 August 2010 - 01:26 AM.


#12 doobybrother

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:49 AM

@princevisram

Is it true that one of the ancestors of your hazir imam had cancelled the sheriat?

This is what Allama Tabatabi has to say about the beliefs of Ismailis

The principle of the Proof of God revolves constantly around the number seven. A prophet (nabi), who is sent by God, has the function of prophecy (nubuwwat), of bringing a Divine Law or Shari'ah. A prophet, who is the perfect manifestation of God, has the esoteric power of initiating men into the divine Mysteries (walayat). After him there are seven executors of his testament (wasayat) and the power of esoteric initiation into the Divine Mysteries (walayat). The seventh in the succession possesses those two powers and also the additional power of prophecy (nubuwwat). The cycle of seven executors (wasis) is then repeated with the seventh a prophet.
The Isma'ilis say that Adam was sent as a prophet with the power of prophecy and of esoteric guidance and he had seven executors of whom the seventh was Noah, who had the three functions of nubuwwat, wasayat, and walayat. Abraham was the seventh executor (wasi) of Noah, Moses the seventh executor of Abraham, Jesus the seventh executor of Moses, Muhammad the seventh executor of Jesus, and Muhammad ibn Isma'il the seventh executor of Muhammad.
They consider the wasis of the Prophet to be: Ali, Husayn ibn Ali (they do not consider Imam Hasan among the Imams), Ali ibn Husayn al-Sajjad, Muhammad al-Baqir, Ja'far al-Sadiq, Isma'il ibn Ja'far, and Muhammad ibn Isma'il. After this series there are seven descendants of Muhammad ibn Isma'il whose names are hidden and secret. After them there are the first seven rulers of the Fatimid caliphate of Egypt the first of whom, 'Ubaydallah al-Mahdi, was the founder of the Fatimid dynasty


Doesn't this go against the belief of the finality of prophethood?



princevisram, on 03 August 2010 - 06:29 AM, said:The Kalima, also Kalma or Shahada is known (in the Ismaili tradition):

lâ ilâha illallâh, Muḥammadur rasûlullâh ‘Aliyun amreel momineen aliyu l-Lāh

or

ʾašhadu ʾan lā ilāha illa (A)llāh, wa ʾašhadu ʾanna Muḥammada(n) rasūlo (A)llāh wa- ʾašhadu ʾan ‘Aliyun amreel momineen aliyu l-Lāh



Please read carefully the Ismaili Shahadah (the Confession of Faith), which is recited in this second part of the Du'a. The Arabic text reads: 'ALY-YUN AMIRUL-MU'MININ 'ALY-YUL-LAH. The translation of it reads: 'Aly - the master of believers is from Allah. The Arabic word for "from" is "min". This word does not appear in the Arabic text. The phrase 'ALY-YUL-LAH translates: "The Ali, the God" which negates the earlier Confession: "There is no deity except Allah." http://www.mostmerci...com/dua-one.htm



Has the author wrongly translated your shahada?
When in the present day an Ismaili says Ali, is he referring to the Agha Khan?


Also, brother I dont get this i_am_not_allowed thing. Religion and secrecy don't mix.

Edited by doobybrother, 04 August 2010 - 02:11 AM.


#13 aladdin

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:18 PM

There are many parts of this du`a that don't sit well with me, namely the testimony of faith recited in the second of the sixth parts of the du`a and the numerous instances in which the Agha Khan is glorified. It's as if he has a higher status than Allah (`s).

Salam brother,

To them Agha Khan is Allah (astafgurallah). Basically, imam Ali (as) is Allah, and as Allah imam Ali (as) re-incarnates himself (astafgurallah). Nabi Adam (as) is Ali (Allah) and so is each Prophet (as) and each imam (as) until the sixth imam (as), their seventh imam is Ismael and the current imam is number forty nine. They are all Ali - Allah (astafgurallah).

Therefore, Agha Khan is Ali (Allah) and on earth, therefore there is no need of Quran. As each Imam (Ali - Allah) changes the Quran to reflect the current times.

Thus, the comments of Irshad Manji (sister of Salman Rushdie) that the present Holy Quran with the Muslims need editing.

#14 princevisram

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 03:55 PM

Man do I miss a lot thanks to school! lol

The website "http://www.mostmerciful.com/" above is written by "Akbarally Meherally" who is, as the Admin noted, an ex-Ismaili. He is totally against the idea of the Ismailis (as I know many are) but he does not even try to show respect for the Ismailis as the most of you do. You are curious and wish to learn, as he was against and only wishes to prove wrong. Reading things on his website will sometimes only make matters worse.

I now do not even feel comfortable taking about the Du'a anymore, so I am not going to. This thread was opened to speak of the Ginans, and I feel I should limit it to that. If you would like to talk of the Du'a and its context based on what you have learned from other websites such as the one above, you may, but I will just end up not participating in the conversations and occasionally post a new story from the Ginans.

I am sorry if I sounded rude to real0019 or ninjaslim and I sincerely ask my forgiveness.

If I have unknowingly been rude to any other members, I also ask my forgiveness.

I will try to answer questions that do not direct towards the Du'a, and If i miss yours, please just bring your question to my attention and i will try my best to answer it. I may not be as experienced as others from my tradition (as I am only 16) but I have grown up with interest in Ismaili and Islam in general so i may have some knowledge that I may be able to share.

Is it true that one of the ancestors of your hazir imam had cancelled the sheriat?


I am not sure who you are referring to... I do not believe this is true as it is said by a more recent Sayyed in her Ginan:

ejee gat maa(n)he meelo neeto neet, paheleeye maano shareeyat
tareekat or hakeekat, maarfat me(n) manku(n) maar
tum chet man meraa...........................................7

Meet in the congregation(of Jamaatkhaanaa) everyday. As a first principle believe in the 'Sharia'(aim, principles and doctrines of faith). Then follow the way or the method(Tariqah) and then internalise the inner mysteries(truths)(Haqiqah) as attained on the Path. Attaining the gnosis(Maarifah, ultimate knowledge and certainty) hence, kill or destroy your (lower)mind including it's desires.


The word Sharia can be interperated in multiples of ways, you can consider reading this link (ironically the same link I had posted earlier) and reading it from the Sufi perspective as it is the same way I feel I personally follow it.

Doesn't this go against the belief of the finality of prophethood?


If you don't mind, can you please cite the reference from where you had recieved this quotation first? thanks...

Has the author wrongly translated your shahada?
When in the present day an Ismaili says Ali, is he referring to the Agha Khan?


Unfortunately I cannot speak Arabic, however it is referenced in the book I have in front of me saying "Ali - the master of believers is from Allah" and not Ali is Allah or anything similar. It is showing that Ali is from Allah and I do not feel this "negates the earlier Confession" as said by the author.

I personally, when saying Ali, feel his noor has been passed to the Aga Khan over generations - so in the end the noor is what is from Ali is in the Present Day Imam. However as mentioned by Aladdin, not all Ismailis belive the way as you say. I personally do not.

My mom believes that Ali is Allah, but I have always told her that they are different and Allah cannot come in the form of a human, but Ali can reincarnate to the Aga Khan. So it is all based on interperation of the individual who belongs to the religion. I know for a fact that not all (and this meaning many) do not consider Ali as Allah (fromt the Ismaili traditions).. In my personal opinion the noor Ali (or in the Aga Khan) is the present day guide (Imam), the Prophet PBUH is who will bring us to salvation and Allah is who one will be with in the hereafter.

Infact, Sultaan Muhammad Shah said in one of his Farmans that it is the Prophet PBUH who will guide you to Allah in the hereafter.

In my own opinion, Ali cannot be compared to Allah; but in other Ismaili opinons I guess it is how they feel Allah exists - but I am not sure, talking to someone with this belief would probably make more sense.

Aladdin also mentioned that Nabi Adam is Ali. This is not true whatsoever. I do not know where you learnt this and would like to request a reference.. . Thanks...

It is also said in a Ginan by Pir Hassan Kabirdeen that:

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee..2

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir
(infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is
enlightened by Holy Qur'aan.

Edited by princevisram, 04 August 2010 - 03:59 PM.


#15 aladdin

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:14 PM

Aladdin also mentioned that Nabi Adam is Ali. This is not true whatsoever. I do not know where you learnt this and would like to request a reference.. . Thanks...

Salam brother,

Please don't reply me with Ya' Ali Madad!

I was referring to the noor of Ali in nabi Adam (as). If Ali is Allah (astafgurallah), then it will make Adam - Allah (astafgurallah), just like the current Agha Khan is Ali - Allah (astafgurallah).

And, can you explain what Bolta Quran mean?

#16 real0019

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:23 PM

You are right about the six parts and how they do differ from the rak'ah that you pray; however, I do not understand why you had emphasized "somewhat" as they are full sujud...

No, they're not. Generally, Nizaris (including the leaders of the jama'at) tend to bow their heads rather than fully prostrate throughout the du'a. I don't mean to sound polemical, but I strongly advise you to take a second look at your faith. Learn your history more thoroughly and look past the smoke screens which are being put in place by your current Imam.

#17 doobybrother

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:01 PM

Thanks alot for the replies.
I am not trying to prove anything. These are questions that i have and I would appreciate if you could tell me whether you believe in it or not.

I am not sure who you are referring to...




Akbarally Meharally has quoted in his history of agha khani Ismalis, an Ismaili missionary Abualy A. Aziz from his A Brief History of Ismailism, p.73:

Mowla'na Ima'm Hasan Ala'Zikrihis Salaam declared the Youm-el-Qiya'ma, the Day of Resurrection, which was held on the nineteenth of Ramaza'n, 559 a.h. (10th of August, 1164). Thousands upon thousands of Ismai'ilis came from all corners of the world to attend this important day of resurrection of the holy faith. The Holy Ima'm declared... “Today I have explained to you the Law [shari'at] and its meaning. I make you free from the rigidity of the Law and resurrect you from the bondage of the letter to the freedom of the spirit of the Law. Obey me and follow my farma'n.... Break your fast and rejoice. This is the day of utmost happiness and gratitude.”

Is this the reason why you guys don't perform hajj?


If you don't mind, can you please cite the reference from where you had recieved this quotation first? thanks...

This was stated by a renowned shia ithna ashari scholar, while describing some of the beliefs of the Ismailis. So do you really believe in this cycle of seven wasis and that every seventh is a Prophet? or anything similar?

I personally, when saying Ali, feel his noor has been passed to the Aga Khan over generations - so in the end the noor is what is from Ali is in the Present Day Imam. However as mentioned by Aladdin, not all Ismailis belive the way as you say. I personally do not.
My mom believes that Ali is Allah, but I have always told her that they are different and Allah cannot come in the form of a human, but Ali can reincarnate to the Aga Khan. So it is all based on interperation of the individual who belongs to the religion. I know for a fact that not all (and this meaning many) do not consider Ali as Allah (fromt the Ismaili traditions).. In my personal opinion the noor Ali (or in the Aga Khan) is the present day guide (Imam), the Prophet PBUH is who will bring us to salvation and Allah is who one will be with in the hereafter.


I had a hard time understanding this. I was hoping for a clear cut answer.
You believe that Agha Khan is the noor of Ali, and that Ali has come in the body of Agha Khan. But you don't believe that Ali is Allah.
Some Ismailis including your mother believe that Ali is Allah.
So what is the official Ismaili position?!

In clear terms can you tell me the belief/aqeeda of Ismalis regarding the following
i)Allah
ii)Ali Posted Image
iii)Agha Khan

Brother whats with all this concealment. Why are you guys so secretive about your rituals,beliefs etc?

#18 aladdin

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:36 PM

Brother whats with all this concealment. Why are you guys so secretive about your rituals,beliefs etc?

Salam brother,

You can understand why they are under concealment. With beliefs that Ali is Allah (astafgurallah), they become out of fold of Islam and become kuffar. And, to some Muslims they will be eligible for hadd punishment.

But it also makes me very mad, as they are responsible for everyone thinking all Shias are kuffar. Such claims as salat consists 18 rak'ah, which is really 3 daily dua's. Add to that, the Bolta (Talking) Quran.

#19 Super Cool Samraat

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 05:02 PM

All this nonsense is terribly sad and disturbing. To claim your origin from Shia and incorporate such practices which have no place in the teachings of Islam is really a dangerous thing for both you and us as it will make people beleive that we are some way associated with it.
I think it is time that as Shias we made our stance clear and disowned all this kufr being commited in the name of our faith all in order to tarnish our name and image and make us a legitimate target of those out for our blood.

I have leardned the following

1- They dont beleive in finality of Prophethood. (which is some thing like qadiyanism emerging from Persia or Fatmid North Africa)

2- They Beleve in transmigration of souls and reincarnations (Islam does not)

3- Ali is Allah (Dirty Shirk and we all know what Ali did during his life time with those who had the audacity to make such a nonsensical blasphemous utterance at his face)

So from what I deduce this is a dangerous parody of our beleifs to put us in Danger.
SO if they are freinds then they are foolish freinds & a foolish freind is quite damaging.

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#20 Amir-Husayn

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 11:52 PM

Maybe I am a fool, but if we want people to come here and help explain there faith to us, especially those from groups who are generally fairly secretive, displaying tactless aggression, towards a 16 year old no less, seems counter-productive to me.

Also, I think the secretive nature is because of responses like this. By the way, what do you think taqiyya is, if it isn't concealment of ones beliefs? There are things that should not be told to people who are not in a position to accept them.

#21 aladdin

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:50 AM

Maybe I am a fool, but if we want people to come here and help explain there faith to us, especially those from groups who are generally fairly secretive, displaying tactless aggression, towards a 16 year old no less, seems counter-productive to me.

How do you know that he is 16 and not lying about his age. He has lied about everything so far. Look at the OP again.

That he does salat three times a day like the twelvers do. He didn't say that they believe imam Ali to be Allah, until this was made obvious to him. He came here to hoodwink us.


Also, I think the secretive nature is because of responses like this. By the way, what do you think taqiyya is, if it isn't concealment of ones beliefs? There are things that should not be told to people who are not in a position to accept them.

This is not taqiyyah as the twelvers do. They are doing outright kuffur by calling Ali as Allah. And, because of them the twelvers are persecuted, as who will believe the twelvers that they don't believe Ali is Allah, the twelvers might be doing taqiyyah by denying Ali is Allah.

#22 princevisram

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 12:45 AM

How do you know that he is 16 and not lying about his age. He has lied about everything so far. Look at the OP again.

That he does salat three times a day like the twelvers do. He didn't say that they believe imam Ali to be Allah, until this was made obvious to him. He came here to hoodwink us.



This is not taqiyyah as the twelvers do. They are doing outright kuffur by calling Ali as Allah. And, because of them the twelvers are persecuted, as who will believe the twelvers that they don't believe Ali is Allah, the twelvers might be doing taqiyyah by denying Ali is Allah.


You disgust me! Do you really think I would come here to lie about anything - even my age? I don't see how some people can be so rude! I'm still in my learning process of religion, still trying to find the Truth. As most people find other things like "hanging out with friends" interesting and fun, I like to research about my faith and learn my religion - and i don't need people like you to stop me. If you don't appreciate the knowledge I am trying to share, then please let others.. The real reason it is taking me soo long to reply is because I am taking summer school, physics, early so i dont have to take it next year...

No, they're not. Generally, Nizaris (including the leaders of the jama'at) tend to bow their heads rather than fully prostrate throughout the du'a. I don't mean to sound polemical, but I strongly advise you to take a second look at your faith. Learn your history more thoroughly and look past the smoke screens which are being put in place by your current Imam.


In the Jamat Khana prayer hall the majority of the Jamat bow their head to the ground until their head touches it and their hands by their side (this is what i mean when I am sayin sujud - is this the sujud you are mentioning?). This is the way it says right in the Du'a book to "bow your head in prostration".. I personally do sujud this way and many others do - yes their are some who refuse and go their own way, but they are not following the Ismaili practice, especially when it says right in the Holy Dua book to do sujud this way.


Akbarally Meharally has quoted in his history of agha khani Ismalis, an Ismaili missionary Abualy A. Aziz from his A Brief History of Ismailism, p.73:

Mowla'na Ima'm Hasan Ala'Zikrihis Salaam declared the Youm-el-Qiya'ma, the Day of Resurrection, which was held on the nineteenth of Ramaza'n, 559 a.h. (10th of August, 1164). Thousands upon thousands of Ismai'ilis came from all corners of the world to attend this important day of resurrection of the holy faith. The Holy Ima'm declared... “Today I have explained to you the Law [shari'at] and its meaning. I make you free from the rigidity of the Law and resurrect you from the bondage of the letter to the freedom of the spirit of the Law. Obey me and follow my farma'n.... Break your fast and rejoice. This is the day of utmost happiness and gratitude.”

Is this the reason why you guys don't perform hajj?


I believe this is a fair question, but I would like to mention a few things before answering it. If you did notice, you have referenced something from a source which has referenced this information from another source by Abualy A Aziz, which of course had to reference this from another source.. I would just like to mention how this could have easily been like a game of broken telephone.. I would also like to point out the time period that was from and the way this farman must have been passed down through generations.. You must also note the ellipsis points between the words "farma'n" and "Break"; this could also be missing an explaination within the Farman which has been omitted for obvious reasons.. I am sure that if you do get the original book by Abually, there would be some sort of explaination of the farman on the page. If this Farman is valid and has been passed down in a legitimate way, unfortunately I cannot say anything about it; but I can say that the quote I mentioned from the Ginan above and also the one below are both more recent than that Farman:

ejee gat maa(n)he meelo neeto neet, paheleeye maano shareeyat
tareekat or hakeekat, maarfat me(n) manku(n) maar
tum chet man meraa...........................................7

Meet in the congregation(of Jamaatkhaanaa) everyday. As a first principle believe in the 'Sharia'(aim, principles and doctrines of faith). Then follow the way or the method(Tariqah) and then internalise the inner mysteries(truths)(Haqiqah) as attained on the Path. Attaining the gnosis(Maarifah, ultimate knowledge and certainty) hence, kill or destroy your (lower)mind including it's desires.

This was stated by a renowned shia ithna ashari scholar, while describing some of the beliefs of the Ismailis. So do you really believe in this cycle of seven wasis and that every seventh is a Prophet? or anything similar?


No I do not, I do not recall anything of this sense in any Ismaili doctrines or history..

I had a hard time understanding this. I was hoping for a clear cut answer.
You believe that Agha Khan is the noor of Ali, and that Ali has come in the body of Agha Khan. But you don't believe that Ali is Allah.
Some Ismailis including your mother believe that Ali is Allah.
So what is the official Ismaili position?!

In clear terms can you tell me the belief/aqeeda of Ismalis regarding the following
i)Allah
ii)Ali
iii)Agha Khan


I'm sorry my answer was not that clear.. :P

i) Allah: In the Ismaili sect of Islam, Allah is God. I will now confirm this with a Farman I read more recently. It starts something like, "The day we don't have the humility to bow to Allah.. " unfortunately I did not write the quotation down, but I will the next time I go to Jamat Khane.. As seen in this quote, the Imam of the Time has told us that not only do we, but also himself bow to Allah in prayer. This should and hopefully will clarify some of the confusion..

ii and iii) Ali and the Aga Khan are both Imams that share a common Noor which has been passed down through the line of Imamat through the generaions..

The above is how the truth in the Ismaili tradition, though many believe otherwise (like the Aga Khan and the Imams are incarnations of Allah)..

Brother whats with all this concealment. Why are you guys so secretive about your rituals,beliefs etc?


Please read Amir-Husayn's post above - he has clearly explained why...
________________________________

Many answers to our questions here can be answered by the third Aga Khan in his book "The Memoirs of Aga Khan".. I would recommend you read this book, and if you do not have access, read one of the main chapters here.

Example Quotations:

"Let us then study the duties of man, as the great majority interpret them, according to the verses of the Koran and the Traditions of the Prophet. First of all, the relations of man to God: there are no priests and no monks. There is no confession of sins, except directly to God."

"The Sunnis are the people of the Sunna or tradition. Their Kalama or profession of faith is "There is no God but God and Mohammed is the Apostle of God." To this the Shias add: "And Ali, the companion of Mohammed, is the Vicar of God." Etymologically the word "Shia" means either a stream or a section.

"The Imam is thus the successor of the Prophet in his religious capacity; he is the man who must be obeyed and who dwells among those from whom he commands spiritual obedience. "

"In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism.."

---here he explains Islam is a monotheism religion - meaning there is only one God ----

and one of the most important quotes from the book together:

"Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh..."

I hope the above quotation has clarified that God cannot be in human flesh...

Edited by princevisram, 08 August 2010 - 01:06 AM.


#23 princevisram

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 12:47 PM

People here have asked a numerous amount of times why the Ismaili religion is so secretive, yet they do no see why in their own posts... When someone tries to share knowledge about their religion and others criticize, trying to explain anything about the religion will become difficult. In the years of 940 CE and others, the Ismailis went through a dreadful trauma where they were killed in their love for the Imams and their Noor; when they tried to share, they were tortured... An example could be easily seen as Rudaki, a persion poet whom sang in love for the Imams and ended up becoming blind and with a broken back; eventually dying... Because of such torture and criticism, the Ismaili religion fell into a deep secrecy until a point where people had to secretly come to Jamatkhana in fear of being punished.. this historical standing has never left until today and this is the reason for the secrecy of many of our rituals..

"During the period of concealment (dawr-i satr), it is known that the Ismailis had offered great sacrifices for the cause of their faith, the detail of which is not accessible. They had been severely domineered and tortured by the Abbasids, the equal of which is hardly seen in other period. Suffice it to elite here one instance: a Syrian daily news, 'al-Baath' on October 28, 1966 highlighted a report that a team of workers had discovered human skulls beneath the earth while digging a location to lay a pipeline, about 150 miles north of Salamia. The exhumation was immediately suspended, and the experts were summoned from Damascus for investigation. During the excavation, about 382 human skulls were exhumed, pitching with small iron nails, emanating a trembling story of severe torture and maltreatment. One skull, for instance was pierced with 151 nails. The matter was referred to the archaeological department, and after a minute examination of two months, it had been discovered that the above location originally was an old Ismaili cemetery, belonging to the period between 150/777 and 275/900. These Ismailis had to live in the teeth of very bitterest opposition, and were tortured with heartless during brutal persecutions, who could not escape the snares of the Abbasids. Being ingrained in their faith, they would not recant even under hardest trials."

Other examples can be found in the publication by the Human Rights Watch,found here.

If people are hurt in any way (verbal or physically) for trying to share/explain/expose their religion, I don't see why they should...

Edited by princevisram, 08 August 2010 - 12:53 PM.


#24 JimJam

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 11:01 AM

New Ginan Story Time! :

ALAKH SREVO BANA HET DHARI
Pir Hasanshah

O you believers serve God, the undescribable, with full submission, obedience and affection;
For the only source of our hope in His (Hazir Imam's) house.
...1
By searching and searching Pir has found the inner secret.
(The secret is that) The house of Hazir Imam is the true source.
...2
Moosa offered a feast to the Lord.
(And he) Moosa, cooked a great quantity of food, which took six months (to finish).
...3
Moosa began to prepare food and make a big collection of it;
And that was such a big collection which had no end or limit.
...4
Moosa could not recognize the unknown person,
When He came with a bronze begging a bowl in hand.
...5
Give, O Moosa, something in the name of the Lord,
I have come with a hope of receiving something.
...6
Moosa ordered his maid to give food to the beggar
The maid brought stale rice for the beggar.
...7
Moosa (then) himself sat quietly in deep meditation (of God)
(In it) He realized that it was the same person and the same bowl.

...8
If I had known the Lord would come, I would have spread silk as a carpet in the street,
(And) sprinkled sweet perfumes and scents of amber.
...9
(To persuade the Lord) Moosa himself went into the holy presence
of the Lord, "O Lord! (Please do come, otherwise) the food gets stale".
...10
The Lord said, "O Moosa, collect all the food near the water,
I will come at the late hours in the day".
...11
The Lord ordered Moosa, "Bring the food on the bank of the river".
...12
The Lord ordered the fish to eat all that fo The fish ate it (the whole lot of food) in a single morsel.
...13
The fish made a complaint of distress before the Lord,
"O Lord, not even one side of mine is filled, (and I am still hungry)".
...14
(How wonderful it is) That inside a dry rock is found a live insect with a green blade of grass in its mouth.
...15
In this sweetest Ginan, Pir Hasanshah describes,
"Such is the wonderful display of the power of my Lord".
...16


So your school follows Monism? Wahdat ul Wujud? Thus that means all things are emanations of God? God is incarnate in all things?

Have you read this letter written by Agha Khan III?
http://www.ismaili.n...Noor-1980-1.pdf

I thought it was pretty interesting stuff. Although I could not understand the particular reverence of the Imams as incarnations of God? Doesn't monism consider all things as incarnations of God? Thus in your system aren't we all on the same level? As far as I understand our position we Ithna Ashri Shias follow Imams because they are rightful holders of religious authority, the rightful successors of Muhammad (pbuh).

#25 macisaac

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 11:17 AM

So your school follows Monism? Wahdat ul Wujud? Thus that means all things are emanations of God? God is incarnate in all things?

Have you read this letter written by Agha Khan III?
http://www.ismaili.n...Noor-1980-1.pdf

I thought it was pretty interesting stuff. Although I could not understand the particular reverence of the Imams as incarnations of God? Doesn't monism consider all things as incarnations of God? Thus in your system aren't we all on the same level? As far as I understand our position we Ithna Ashri Shias follow Imams because they are rightful holders of religious authority, the rightful successors of Muhammad (pbuh).



"The Ismailis in the course of their prayers mention and pray to material objects such as fish and other things as "GOD" or parts of the universal "ONE".


fish? this stuff is even crazier than I might have imagined...



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