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Sahih Al Bukhari


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#1 TruePath

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 07:34 PM

the author of sahih al bukhari spent 15yrs of his life with dedication and devotion on his work. if a person came upto him and narrated a hadith; if the sayer so much as didn't have a beard, that hadith would be rejected. if a person wasn't trustworthy; the sayings of that person wouldn't be accepted either.
secondly, the auther of sahih al bukhari had a dream where he was swatting flies away from the prophet's (may Allah's peace & blessing be upon him) face. the scholars took it to mean that he was removing all the false sayings.
this man was extremely strict with who & where the info came from. and sahih al bukhari is regarded as the highest most authentic sunnah around. don't say by the sunnis... that get's me peed off but by muslims, as in: the real muslims who believe in Allah and the rasul and the last day and who do good works.
stop sectioning islam people!!! and stop adding your culture and desires into it and then putting it under a title such as sunnis or shias!!
this is completely wrong! if you're muslim then obey Allah and his rasul and stop calling yourselves sunnis shias mordernists or wersternised muslims... these are not the deen of Allah.
if you accept islam; accept it as Allah perfected it for you, don't add divisions and don't believe in parts and disbelieve in parts (of the Quran) thereof!
salam

p.s. this post was a reply before, but i thought to post it asa new topic for a better audience :angel:

#2 Ya Baqiyatullah (aj)

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:15 PM

(salam)

Have a quick read on this: http://www.al-islam....chapter9/3.html

#3 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 08:50 PM

TruePath, do you think every single hadith in Bukhari is authentic?

#4 TruePath

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 03:22 AM

TruePath, do you think every single hadith in Bukhari is authentic?


absolutely. it's the most authentic hadths around. and answer to your question is on a condition that as long as it doesn't contradict the Quran. if that is so, i have no problem believing the authenticity of it :)

(salam)

Have a quick read on this: http://www.al-islam....chapter9/3.html


no thanks jazzakallah. there are so many websites that aren't the real deal, even if this one is like i say in my previous answer, i hold quran as the highest so as long as a hadith doesn't contradict the quran i have no problem in it :)
salam ;)

#5 TruePath

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 04:14 AM

LA ILAHA ILLALLAHU MUHAMMADURRASULULLAH.
note: this is the islamic shahada.
there is no tom Richard or harry added to it afterwards. it's as simple as la ilaha illallah, muhammadur'rasulullah. FULL STOP. anyone who adds anything to this shahada such as and so and so... Is adding only what their heart desires.
that aint islam. muhammed may Allah's peace & blessings be upon him had the 'seal' of the prophethood between his shoulder blades. that means END OF LINE of the prophets.
so no ali's abdullah or hussains or hasans are to be followed after prophet muhammed may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him.
Allah makes this so clear! how do you not pay heed?? 'If you love Allah, follow the massanger (muhammed) and Allah will love you'
start from the basic. la ilaha illallah, muhammadur rasulullah.
don't add anything else to it. Islam isn't about following what you want, but it's about following the laws of Allah, beleiving in Allah and his rasul and the last day.
If a anything doesn't fit in this category, it aint Allah: SAY: HE IS Allah ONE AND ONLY, THE ABSOLUTE, ETERNAL. NEITHER DOES HE BEGET NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN AND THERE ARE NONE UNTO LIKE HIM.

do imams die?? yes!! Allah does not die, neither was HE born.
Is Ali unique? no. there are plenty of ali's and imams and they all in the end die.
do imams have children, mothers or fathers? yes!! they even have wives whom they pleasure with!!

DO NOT ASCRIBE PARTNERS WITH Allah!!

WORSHIP Allah ALONE, AND NOT WHAT Allah HAS CREATED!!


salam

#6 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:36 AM

absolutely. it's the most authentic hadths around. and answer to your question is on a condition that as long as it doesn't contradict the Quran. if that is so, i have no problem believing the authenticity of it :)

Ok, then take a look at this thread : http://www.shiachat....of-abu-huraira/

You will find a list of nonsensical hadiths, which I don't think contradict the Quran, narrated by Abu Hurraira. Most of the hadiths can be found in Bukhari and Muslim. Let me know if they seem authentic to you.

#7 aladdin

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 07:41 AM

LA ILAHA ILLALLAHU MUHAMMADURRASULULLAH.
note: this is the islamic shahada.

You have mentioned that sahih Bukhari should contradict the Quran. Please bring me a single verse from the Quran on the above shahadah.

Edited by aladdin, 22 July 2010 - 07:41 AM.


#8 Ya Baqiyatullah (aj)

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:38 AM

no thanks jazzakallah. there are so many websites that aren't the real deal, even if this one is like i say in my previous answer, i hold quran as the highest so as long as a hadith doesn't contradict the quran i have no problem in it :)
salam ;)


(salam)

Why be so prejudiced? The link I gave you quotes from Bukhari, which is the topic if your discussion. Also, do you admit to there being ahadith in Bukhari that contradict with Quranic teachings then? If not, have a look at the link, everything is referenced. It won't hurt to consider.

#9 Abbas

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:34 AM

the author of sahih al bukhari spent 15yrs of his life with dedication and devotion on his work. if a person came upto him and narrated a hadith; if the sayer so much as didn't have a beard, that hadith would be rejected. if a person wasn't trustworthy; the sayings of that person wouldn't be accepted either.


You will surprised to find that some of his narrators were weak and nobody deemed them to be reliable, except Bukhari. Ibn Hajr discusses this in his Sharh of Saheeh Bukhari.

secondly, the auther of sahih al bukhari had a dream where he was swatting flies away from the prophet's (may Allah's peace & blessing be upon him) face. the scholars took it to mean that he was removing all the false sayings.


Dreams don't mean much in trying to prove something.

this man was extremely strict with who & where the info came from. and sahih al bukhari is regarded as the highest most authentic sunnah around. don't say by the sunnis... that get's me peed off but by muslims, as in: the real muslims who believe in Allah and the rasul and the last day and who do good works.


The fact is that he is only accepted by his own group, not be the group who decided to follow the Prophet's [s] family.

stop sectioning islam people!!! and stop adding your culture and desires into it and then putting it under a title such as sunnis or shias!!
this is completely wrong! if you're muslim then obey Allah and his rasul and stop calling yourselves sunnis shias mordernists or wersternised muslims... these are not the deen of Allah.
if you accept islam; accept it as Allah perfected it for you, don't add divisions and don't believe in parts and disbelieve in parts (of the Quran) thereof!


Why are you forming a group which revolves around Bukhari? By saying that lets get behind Bukhari and rely on his book, you are making yourself partisan to a group.
The sad fact of the matter is that the Muslims split into groups since before the Prophet's [s] body was even buried in the ground.
Think about it... within fity years of the Prophet's death, there were several civil wars, the sahabah fought and killed each other, many narrations were fabricated, many holy men were persecuted, and the family of the Prophet [s] was slaughtered in Karbala.
Why would all this happen and so many Muslims (the Tabi`een and the Sahabah) become a part of it or just look on as spectators to the division of the Muslims?
The utterly wrong thing to do would be to brush all this under the carpet and pretend everything's fine.

#10 Ya Baqiyatullah (aj)

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:31 PM

Another good read: http://www.al-islam.org/ask/8.html

#11 TruePath

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:05 PM

You will surprised to find that some of his narrators were weak and nobody deemed them to be reliable, except Bukhari. Ibn Hajr discusses this in his Sharh of Saheeh Bukhari.

YOU KNOW HATERS COME UP WITH THE MOST UBSURD BASELESS ILLOGICAL ASSUMPTIONS!



Dreams don't mean much in trying to prove something.
'IF A PERSON SEES ME IN A DREAM, FOR INDEED HE HAS REALLY SEEN ME, FOR SHAYTAN CANNOT TAKE MY FORM' THIS IS OUR PROPHET'S PBUH WORDS.



The fact is that he is only accepted by his own group, not be the group who decided to follow the Prophet's [s] family.

DID Allah PERSONALLY TELL YOU THIS? OR ARE MOST OF THE RESPECTED ISLAMIC SCHOLARS MORE RIGHT THAN THE MINORITY, OR DO YOU DOUBT Allah'S WORDS?! 'IF YOU LOVE Allah, THEN FOLLOW THE MASSENGER AND Allah WILL LOVE YOU' NOTE: Allah DOESN'T SAY REPLACE THE MASSENGER WITH ALI AND Allah WILL LOVE YOU, NO!
BESIDES MOST OF THE HADITHS ARE FROM OUR PROPHET'S WIFE OR HIS CLOSEST COMPANIONS.



Why are you forming a group which revolves around Bukhari? By saying that lets get behind Bukhari and rely on his book, you are making yourself partisan to a group.
The sad fact of the matter is that the Muslims split into groups since before the Prophet's [s] body was even buried in the ground.
Think about it... within fity years of the Prophet's death, there were several civil wars, the sahabah fought and killed each other, many narrations were fabricated, many holy men were persecuted, and the family of the Prophet [s] was slaughtered in Karbala.
Why would all this happen and so many Muslims (the Tabi`een and the Sahabah) become a part of it or just look on as spectators to the division of the Muslims?
The utterly wrong thing to do would be to brush all this under the carpet and pretend everything's fine.


AM I FORMING ANYTHING? I FOLLOW THE QURAN AND THE MOST AUTHENTIC HADITH AROUND WHICH IS SAHIH AL BUKHARI. I'M NOT BOTHERED WITH YOUR OPINION OF FABRICATION NEITHER WILL YOU SWAY ME TO FOLLOW ALI INSTEAD OF ISLAM, YOU DIGG.
LIKE I SAY, I HOLD THE QURAN AS THE HIGHEST, AND FOR THE LOVE OF Allah, IF THE HADITHS DON'T CONTRADICT THE QURAN, AND IT'S A RELIABLE SOURCE, THEN Allah HAVE MERCY, BECAUSE THAT IS THE TRUE DEEN OF Allah... NOT SHIAS OR ANY OTHER 'FABRICATED' AS YOU PUT IT GROUPS! COMPRENDE.

(salam)

Why be so prejudiced? The link I gave you quotes from Bukhari, which is the topic if your discussion. Also, do you admit to there being ahadith in Bukhari that contradict with Quranic teachings then? If not, have a look at the link, everything is referenced. It won't hurt to consider.


PREJUDICED? ME? I DID MY FAIR SHARE OF RESEARCH AND MY SENSES KNOW THAT Allah'S DEEN IS THE ONLY DEEN.
BUT LET ME TURN THIS AROUND TO YOU.
YOU GO TO EVERY NON-SHIA SITES AND TELL ME, WOULD YOU THEN NOT BE SO BIASED OR 'PREJUDICED'?
I AM NOT PREJUDICED, I'M GUIDED BY Allah'S GRACE ON THE STRAIGHT PATH.

You have mentioned that sahih Bukhari should contradict the Quran. Please bring me a single verse from the Quran on the above shahadah.


NO, I DIDN'T SAY IT SHOULD CONTRADICT THE QURAN, READ IT AGAIN.
ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION REGARDING LA ILAHA ILLALAH MUHAMMADHUR RASULULLAH... WHAT DO YOU DENY IT OR DON'T ACCEPT THIS?
THEN YOUR DEEDS ARE WITH YOUR LORD.

Ok, then take a look at this thread : http://www.shiachat....of-abu-huraira/

You will find a list of nonsensical hadiths, which I don't think contradict the Quran, narrated by Abu Hurraira. Most of the hadiths can be found in Bukhari and Muslim. Let me know if they seem authentic to you.


I AIN'T A SHIA... SO WHY WOULD I GO TO A SHIA SITE AND RELY ON THIS SOURCE??
DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE!
OBVIOUSLY SHIAS HATE ON ANYTHING THAT AIN'T SHIA'IZM SO THEY'D MAKE SURE THEY COME UP WITH LOADSA BASELESS STUFF. I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU ANY,ORE COZ YOU BEING A SHIA WOULD KNOW WHAT GOES ON.
AND OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE WANTS TO BE RIGHT, BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A PROMISE OR THE GUARANTEE OF Allah, THEN WHAT DO YOU HAVE?
FOR AGUMENTS SAKE I'LL LET YOU WIN ON THE HADITH THING, BUT I CAN SAY THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT YOUR SOURCES... IT WORKS BOTH WAYS, BUT I HAVE THE QURAN BACKING UP EVERYTHING I BELIEVE IN, DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE THE SAME? Allah'S PROMISE OR GUARANTEE?
SALAM

#12 Haydar Husayn

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:30 PM

I AIN'T A SHIA... SO WHY WOULD I GO TO A SHIA SITE AND RELY ON THIS SOURCE??
DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE!
OBVIOUSLY SHIAS HATE ON ANYTHING THAT AIN'T SHIA'IZM SO THEY'D MAKE SURE THEY COME UP WITH LOADSA BASELESS STUFF. I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU ANY,ORE COZ YOU BEING A SHIA WOULD KNOW WHAT GOES ON.
AND OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE WANTS TO BE RIGHT, BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A PROMISE OR THE GUARANTEE OF Allah, THEN WHAT DO YOU HAVE?
FOR AGUMENTS SAKE I'LL LET YOU WIN ON THE HADITH THING, BUT I CAN SAY THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT YOUR SOURCES... IT WORKS BOTH WAYS, BUT I HAVE THE QURAN BACKING UP EVERYTHING I BELIEVE IN, DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE THE SAME? Allah'S PROMISE OR GUARANTEE?
SALAM

First of all sister, could you please stop using caps? It makes it look like you are shouting, and is very bad manners. Secondly, the link I gave you was to another thread on this site, and it was started by a Sunni.

I'm not looking to win an argument with you, and I don't hate anyone. There are many Sunnis that are better Muslims than some so-called Shias, and vice-versa. I don't think any group is condemned as a whole. You are the one who seems to have some animosity towards us for some reason.

Yes, our sources contain a lot of dubious hadiths, but we don't label any of our books 'sahih', like you do with your sahih sitta. We judge every individual hadith on it's own basis. If any of them contradict the Quran, it should be rejected. If you look at our beliefs from an objective source, I'm sure you will see that they are actually in line with the Quran. If you wish to see our beliefs defended in light of the Quran and Sunni hadiths, take a look at the books al Murajaat and Peshawar Nights. You can find them here http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/ and http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/. You can also find PDF versions if you do a search. Just look up some topic in the index that you think we are wrong about and read the relevant section.

Don't get your information from some anti-Shia websites, and don't get them from what the average Shia is doing either. Take some time to read some books written by some people of knowledge. Watch some lectures by the likes of Sayed Ammar Nakshawani and Hassanain Rajabali. Inshallah a lot of your misconceptions will be dispelled.

(wasalam)

Edited by Haider Husayn, 22 July 2010 - 06:09 PM.


#13 Umm Fatima

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:32 PM

I wish Shias could go into Sunni forums with as much confidence in their patience as Sunnis do in our forums.

#14 Replicant

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 06:25 PM

LA ILAHA ILLALLAHU MUHAMMADURRASULULLAH.
note: this is the islamic shahada.
there is no tom Richard or harry added to it afterwards. it's as simple as la ilaha illallah, muhammadur'rasulullah. FULL STOP. anyone who adds anything to this shahada such as and so and so... Is adding only what their heart desires.


Posted Image
I am new to ShiaChat but have been reading it for many years and only decided to participate a few days ago.
The quoted comment interested me.
I just want to point out that there is nothing in the Quran which gives a set Shahada.
However, interestingly, The Quran narrates an event where the magicians declared their belief in God:

ÝóÃõáúÞöíó ÇáÓøóÍóÑóÉõ ÓõÌøóÏðÇ ÞóÇáõæÇ ÂãóäøóÇ ÈöÑóÈøö åóÇÑõæäó æóãõæÓóìٰ
And the magicians were cast down making obeisance; they said: We believe in the Lord of Haroun and Musa. (20:70)


The magicians sort of declared their "shahada" and they include the Prophet of the time and also his successor.
Similar to the Shia shahada which declares the Prophet Posted Image and his successor Posted Image .
Does this prove that that the shahada should include the successor as well? Quite possible.
I could be wrong though - just thought I'd add in my thoughts.

Wasalaam.

#15 lotfilms

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 06:47 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)

BUT I HAVE THE QURAN BACKING UP EVERYTHING I BELIEVE IN, DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE THE SAME? Allah'S PROMISE OR GUARANTEE?

How is it that Sunnis have trouble with a basic Quran command like "wipe your feet" during the Wuhdu?
وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ
(from 5:5)

This is a very clear verse and there's no two-ways about it. "And wipe your heads and feet up to the ankles". Crystal clear. And yet you wash them for whatever reason.

And where do you get this idea that all of the Companions were perfectly pious people and so were the Wives of the Prophet (pbuh) when the Quran specifies only a group of them as being "perfectly pious" They are in varying levels.
Allah(swt) even specifically says, talking to the wives:
وَإِنْ كُنْتُنَّ تُرِدْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالدَّارَ الْآخِرَةَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ أَعَدَّ لِلْمُحْسِنَاتِ مِنْكُنَّ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

And if you desire God and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good(mu7sinaat) among you a mighty reward(33:29)

And how is it that Sunnis say that Ali (as) was not better than any other Companion (especially not Abu Bakr)? Was he not the "self" of the Prophet(pbuh) in 3:61? Was he not one of the ones purified in 33:33? Was he not the one whom Allah(swt) so praised in the opening story of Surah al-Insan (chap.76)? Was he not the one who gave away the ring in zakat in 5:55? Was he not the one who sold his self to Allah(swt) in 2:207? What other Companion is praised so many times in the Quran?

And how is it that Sunnis say that you're not allowed to go against your ruler, even if he is a tyrant when the Quran is full of examples of Prophets (pbuh) going against tyrants, the most famous being Moses (pbuh) rebelling against the Pharaoh(la)

And why do Sunnis always emphasize "majority" when Allah(swt) emphasizes over and over in the Quran that most people are astray? Don't you have hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) saying that the Muslims will follow the Jews an Christians to the point that they would even go into a lizard's hole and that this would happen when the Muslims are large in number? Don't you have hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) praising the ghuraba' (ra)?

Why do Sunni jurists use qiyas(analogy) in their rulings when Allah(swt) beautifully describes an example of how flawed qiyas is:
الَّذِينَ يَأْكُلُونَ الرِّبَا لَا يَقُومُونَ إِلَّا كَمَا يَقُومُ الَّذِي يَتَخَبَّطُهُ الشَّيْطَانُ مِنَ الْمَسِّ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا الْبَيْعُ مِثْلُ الرِّبَا ۗ وَأَحَلَّ اللَّـهُ الْبَيْعَ وَحَرَّمَ الرِّبَا

Those who devour usury cannot rise except as one whom Satan has made insane by his touch. That is because they say, "trading is like usury" and God has allowed trading and forbidden usury.(a part of 2:275)


Here, the people made a perfectly logical analogy, but it was a false analogy because it contradicted the reality that God has allowed trading and forbidden usury.

These are only a couple of the issues that i have with Sunnis when it comes to the Quran.

If you wish to discuss the Quran, i would be happy to partake :)

was salam

Edited by lotfilms, 22 July 2010 - 06:52 PM.


#16 TruePath

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 06:32 AM

First of all sister, could you please stop using caps? It makes it look like you are shouting, and is very bad manners. Secondly, the link I gave you was to another thread on this site, and it was started by a Sunni.

I'm not looking to win an argument with you, and I don't hate anyone. There are many Sunnis that are better Muslims than some so-called Shias, and vice-versa. I don't think any group is condemned as a whole. You are the one who seems to have some animosity towards us for some reason.

Yes, our sources contain a lot of dubious hadiths, but we don't label any of our books 'sahih', like you do with your sahih sitta. We judge every individual hadith on it's own basis. If any of them contradict the Quran, it should be rejected. If you look at our beliefs from an objective source, I'm sure you will see that they are actually in line with the Quran. If you wish to see our beliefs defended in light of the Quran and Sunni hadiths, take a look at the books al Murajaat and Peshawar Nights. You can find them here http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/ and http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/. You can also find PDF versions if you do a search. Just look up some topic in the index that you think we are wrong about and read the relevant section.

Don't get your information from some anti-Shia websites, and don't get them from what the average Shia is doing either. Take some time to read some books written by some people of knowledge. Watch some lectures by the likes of Sayed Ammar Nakshawani and Hassanain Rajabali. Inshallah a lot of your misconceptions will be dispelled.

(wasalam)


As you wish... i had a migrane last night and everything seemed to be giving me a headache... i don't have anything against anyone, how would that be possible i don't personally know you guys! i had the intention of bringing muslims back into one brotherhood, the true islam, with no sections or divisions cause that is how it's meant to be. i aint a suni or a shia... i follow Allah's book and (as you put it) any SAHIH( sahih meaning authentic) i found sahih al bukhari to the most authentic after research, so is sahih muslim the next authentic but if it contradicts the quran, i don't accept... it's simple.
anyyways, i wish you to be a follower of Allah and his rasul. and for any muslims here. please take a moment in your life to think about why are you a shia and why is your brother a sunni? can that be right?
come back to Allah's deen with no divisions and hatred amongst you guys, please.
as you pointed out to me that i'm 'prejudiced' now think about what you said to me, and ask yourself, are you?
if not then you owe it to yourself to know the true deen of Allah.
i apologyze for shoutin lol i had a really bad migrane salam

#17 TruePath

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 07:47 AM

(bismillah)
(salam)

How is it that Sunnis have trouble with a basic Quran command like "wipe your feet" during the Wuhdu?
وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ
(from 5:5)

This is a very clear verse and there's no two-ways about it. "And wipe your heads and feet up to the ankles". Crystal clear. And yet you wash them for whatever reason.


firstly i aint a sunni. i'm a muslim full stop. i wipe my hair & also wipe my feet. but in order to wipe my feet it has to be wet first, right? Allah says what you just quoted, but point out to me where Allah prohibits a person wetting their feet first. everyone i know run their feet under the tap whilst rubbing their with their hand, and finally wiping the feet... that's not going against the quran.

And where do you get this idea that all of the Companions were perfectly pious people and so were the Wives of the Prophet (pbuh) when the Quran specifies only a group of them as being "perfectly pious" They are in varying levels.
Allah(swt) even specifically says, talking to the wives:
وَإِنْ كُنْتُنَّ تُرِدْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالدَّارَ الْآخِرَةَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ أَعَدَّ لِلْمُحْسِنَاتِ مِنْكُنَّ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

[iAnd if you desire God and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good(mu7sinaat) among you a mighty reward(33:29)


Are you saying that the prophet's wives and close companions weren't pious? (shoking, even for you, you're indirectly saying that Ali wasn't pious either!) Firstly they're humans, meaning people make mistakes and then they repent, that is the nature of humans. that doesn't make them pious-less!! plus... those people are now in heaven. are you still thinknig they aint pious? i said they were pious, i did not liken them to god! nauzubillah...

[i]And how is it that Sunnis say that Ali (as) was not better than any other Companion (especially not Abu Bakr)? Was he not the "self" of the Prophet(pbuh) in 3:61? Was he not one of the ones purified in 33:33? Was he not the one whom Allah(swt) so praised in the opening story of Surah al-Insan (chap.76)? Was he not the one who gave away the ring in zakat in 5:55? Was he not the one who sold his self to Allah(swt) in 2:207? What other Companion is praised so many times in the Quran?[/i]

look, i aint a sunni, but after the prophet pbuh passed away, Abu Bakr and umar stabilized the muslim ummah, and that was the will of Allah. i think that's where you're confusing yourself regarding Ali and Abu Bakr. thay were both muslims, neither of them was a 'shia' or a 'sunni' but muslims, full stop!

And how is it that Sunnis say that you're not allowed to go against your ruler, even if he is a tyrant when the Quran is full of examples of Prophets (pbuh) going against tyrants, the most famous being Moses (pbuh) rebelling against the Pharaoh(la)

firstly, Allah azawajal orderd his messanger moses pbuh to go against pharo. moses had the help of Allah and the help of his brother Aaron. this was the ORDER of Allah. so now the order by our prophet muhammed pbuh is what you just quoted muslims are not allowed to go against their ruler (with conditions). what's the wisdom behind that? let me give you the best example of what happened when people of iraq went against saddam hussain. now what! they cry and say it was much better when saddam hussain was alive and our ruler.

And why do Sunnis always emphasize "majority" when Allah(swt) emphasizes over and over in the Quran that most people are astray? Don't you have hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) saying that the Muslims will follow the Jews an Christians to the point that they would even go into a lizard's hole and that this would happen when the Muslims are large in number? Don't you have hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) praising the ghuraba' (ra)?

Excuse me... does majority contradict most?? haha... please. don't make me laugh. and a hadith about muslims following the jews and christians i haven't come accross but for arguments sake, look at this world... 'the western muslims' they're drinking wearing skimpy outfits 'DOING THEIR EYEBROWS' go clubbing, emulating the non muslims. you see that around you everywhere, c'mon man... how could you deny such things that are right infront of you!
and for the umpteenth time i aint a 'sunni!' although i gotta say they're more closer to islam than the shias are.

Why do Sunni jurists use qiyas(analogy) in their rulings when Allah(swt) beautifully describes an example of how flawed qiyas is:
الَّذِينَ يَأْكُلُونَ الرِّبَا لَا يَقُومُونَ إِلَّا كَمَا يَقُومُ الَّذِي يَتَخَبَّطُهُ الشَّيْطَانُ مِنَ الْمَسِّ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا الْبَيْعُ مِثْلُ الرِّبَا ۗ وَأَحَلَّ اللَّـهُ الْبَيْعَ وَحَرَّمَ الرِّبَا

Those who devour usury cannot rise except as one whom Satan has made insane by his touch. That is because they say, "trading is like usury" and God has allowed trading and forbidden usury.(a part of 2:275)


Here, the people made a perfectly logical analogy, but it was a false analogy because it contradicted the reality that God has allowed trading and forbidden usury.

These are only a couple of the issues that i have with Sunnis when it comes to the Quran.

If you wish to discuss the Quran, i would be happy to partake :)


okay, here i have no idea what you're chatting about... but do you deny that you have a bank account? are interest being taken or do you receive interests, i don't know. one things for sure, almost everyone in the civilized world deal with banks, they have no choice... their income comes via account, they have credit or debit cards which involve in all this interest based stuff. so in this case it is permitted to choose the lesser of two evils, and that is the beauty of islam.
like i say i aint a sunni, and the last question i kinda guessed what you were trying to say coz i didn't understand it. and i was only defending islam, not sunnis although like i say sunnis are more close to islam than the shias, and i'm pretty darn sure that the sunnis could critisize and question the shias... on countless amount of stuff you beleive in or do.
so whatever but the deen with Allah is islam... not the divisions you make or are with
w/salam
was salam


Edited by TruePath, 23 July 2010 - 08:00 AM.


#18 TruePath

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 08:13 AM

Posted Image
I am new to ShiaChat but have been reading it for many years and only decided to participate a few days ago.
The quoted comment interested me.
I just want to point out that there is nothing in the Quran which gives a set Shahada.
However, interestingly, The Quran narrates an event where the magicians declared their belief in God:



The magicians sort of declared their "shahada" and they include the Prophet of the time and also his successor.
Similar to the Shia shahada which declares the Prophet Posted Image and his successor Posted Image .
Does this prove that that the shahada should include the successor as well? Quite possible.
I could be wrong though - just thought I'd add in my thoughts.

Wasalaam.


assalamu'alaikum.
well the verse you're quoting from is when pharo's magicians came accross the truth 'when truth faces falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by it's nature is bound to perish' and so they became muslims.
the set shahada is when you're testifying that Allah is the one and only creator and Muhammed pbuh is the last and final messanger. the best example i can give to you is the adhaan. 5 times a day muslims declare that there is no diety worthy of worship but Allah and Muhammed pbuh is the last and final messanger of Allah.
no more messangers shall come after Muhammed pbuh.
salam

#19 aladdin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:05 AM

NO, I DIDN'T SAY IT SHOULD CONTRADICT THE QURAN, READ IT AGAIN.
ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION REGARDING LA ILAHA ILLALAH MUHAMMADHUR RASULULLAH... WHAT DO YOU DENY IT OR DON'T ACCEPT THIS?
THEN YOUR DEEDS ARE WITH YOUR LORD.

Thank you for your reply. So you couldn't prove the Shahadah from the Holy Quran. Good, you didn't pass your test there?

Now, which book you prove your Shahadah from?

#20 Replicant

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:09 AM

assalamu'alaikum.
well the verse you're quoting from is when pharo's magicians came accross the truth 'when truth faces falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by it's nature is bound to perish' and so they became muslims.
the set shahada is when you're testifying that Allah is the one and only creator and Muhammed pbuh is the last and final messanger. the best example i can give to you is the adhaan. 5 times a day muslims declare that there is no diety worthy of worship but Allah and Muhammed pbuh is the last and final messanger of Allah.
no more messangers shall come after Muhammed pbuh.
salam



Posted Image
We don't believe in any messengers after the final Posted Image .
You seem to have misconceptions.

Wasalaam

Edited by Zameer Hussain, 23 July 2010 - 09:44 AM.


#21 aladdin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 09:18 AM

As you wish... i had a migrane last night and everything seemed to be giving me a headache... i don't have anything against anyone, how would that be possible i don't personally know you guys! i had the intention of bringing muslims back into one brotherhood, the true islam, with no sections or divisions cause that is how it's meant to be.

In this case you are better than your Prophet as your intention is to bring the Muslims back into one brotherhood.

If your Prophet had appointed a successor after him, we wouldn't be divided today. Therefore, your Prophet failed and created fitna and division within the Ummah.

However, our Prophet (pbuh) did appoint imam Ali (as) as his successor, but abu Bakr and Omar stole this from imam Ali, by leaving the burial of the Prophet and his still warm body.

If abu Bakr and Omar hadn't stolen the khalifat from imam Ali (as), we would be one Ummah as per the Prophet wishes and you have not to come as a NEW MESSENGER to unite the Ummah.

#22 JimJam

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:22 AM

LA ILAHA ILLALLAHU MUHAMMADURRASULULLAH.
note: this is the islamic shahada.
there is no tom Richard or harry added to it afterwards. it's as simple as la ilaha illallah, muhammadur'rasulullah. FULL STOP. anyone who adds anything to this shahada such as and so and so... Is adding only what their heart desires.
that aint islam. muhammed may Allah's peace & blessings be upon him had the 'seal' of the prophethood between his shoulder blades. that means END OF LINE of the prophets.
so no ali's abdullah or hussains or hasans are to be followed after prophet muhammed may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him.
Allah makes this so clear! how do you not pay heed?? 'If you love Allah, follow the massanger (muhammed) and Allah will love you'
start from the basic. la ilaha illallah, muhammadur rasulullah.


We dont follow the Ahl-e-bayt as prophets. We consider them Imams, the rightful successors of Muhammad (pbuh). Nabuwat and Imamat are different.
See how Imamate is mentioned in the Quran.

[Yusufali 3:33] Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-
[Yusufali 3:34] Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Men given divine responsibly are descendants of prophets


[Yusufali 21:72] And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).
[Yusufali 21:73] And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).
[Shakir 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve

These verses show the responsibility of Imams and tie imamate with sinlessness

Musa (as) prophet asked Allah for an heir and helper from his family

[Yusufali 20:29] "And give me a Minister from my family,
[Yusufali 20:30] "Aaron, my brother;
[Yusufali 20:31] "Add to my strength through him,
[Yusufali 20:32] "And make him share my task:
[Yusufali 20:33] "That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint,
[Yusufali 20:34] "And remember Thee without stint:
[Yusufali 20:35] "For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."
[Yusufali 20:36] (Allah) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"

Why does Musa(as) ask Allah to MAKE Aaron a deputy when his brother was always near him anyway?

The Quran also explains Harun's position further

[Shakir 7:142] And We appointed with Musa a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights, and Musa said to his brother Haroun: Take my place among my people, and act well and do not follow the way of the mischief-makers.

[Yusufali 25:35] (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

Interestingly if you look up the Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57,Hadith Number 56, it says that Muhammad (pbuh) said to Ali (as);

"Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron was to Moses?"


Another verse which ties imamat to infallibility and ties the duty of imamat to the pious men among descendants of Ibrahim(as), this also Ibrahim (as) being appointed as an Imam (as) much time after being a prophet.

[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Here is mentioned the Imams among the Bani Israel, the Succesors of Musa(as)

[Pickthal 32:23] We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.
[Pickthal 32:24] And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our command
[Shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.


I have given Shakir's translation at times because he literally translates the Arabic word imam or it's plural Iemmah into imam, other translators try to translate imam to chief or leader. But shakirs overall style is confusing.


We can deduce from the verses that an imam is
1. A man with divine authority, though not himself divine
2.He is nominated through Allah's orders by a previous holder of divine authority
3. He is not a Prophet in the sense he brings the faith of Allah to a disbelieving nation, instead he guides the nation of believers to live correctly & serve Allah as the successor of the prophets.


Also check out this thread
http://www.shiachat....rship-analysis/

#23 Qa'im

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:37 AM

(salam)

So, do you believe Muhammed (pbuh) tried to commit suicide several times? Bukhari does.

... But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before... (Volume 9 Hadith 111)

So you believe the final Messenger (pbuh) would go on a hill top, more than once, to throw himself off? What's bizarre is that the isnad of this hadith is broken - it does not have a complete chain of narrators - and Bukhari still included it in his book.

I do commend Bukhari for his work, as he was able to collect thousands of ahadith ranging from different topics, but to put a human work on the same level as the Qur'an is heresy.

#24 aladdin

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:52 AM

(salam)

So, do you believe Muhammed (pbuh) tried to commit suicide several times? Bukhari does.

... But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before... (Volume 9 Hadith 111)

So you believe the final Messenger (pbuh) would go on a hill top, more than once, to throw himself off? What's bizarre is that the isnad of this hadith is broken - it does not have a complete chain of narrators - and Bukhari still included it in his book.

I do commend Bukhari for his work, as he was able to collect thousands of ahadith ranging from different topics, but to put a human work on the same level as the Qur'an is heresy.

And, then according to same Mr. Bukhari, the Prophet of Islam was bewitched for six months.

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 400:
Narrated Aisha:

Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done.

The wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man bewitched!" (17:47)

You play very well with the facts. Prophet SAW was bewitched for 6 months only. Not through out his life. That is why he was given Sorah Naas and Sorah Falaq. Have you read Sorah Falaq's tafseer?



#25 lotfilms

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:19 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)
i'm sorry to hear about your migraine; may Allah(swt) make it easy on you.
and continuing on...

firstly i aint a sunni. i'm a muslim full stop

i hear this a number of times from people who get their Sunnah from Sunni sources such as Sahih al-Bukhari and other such books.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, it could very well be a duck, even if it won't say admit it.
Labels are irrelevant, so we're discussing the source of the matter

Are you saying that the prophet's wives and close companions weren't pious? (shoking, even for you, you're indirectly saying that Ali wasn't pious either!) Firstly they're humans, meaning people make mistakes and then they repent, that is the nature of humans. that doesn't make them pious-less!! plus... those people are now in heaven. are you still thinknig they aint pious? i said they were pious, i did not liken them to god! nauzubillah...

Read what i said carefully:
"when the Quran specifies only a group of them as being "perfectly pious" They are in varying levels."
Some were so pious that they would cry during the prayer and shake our of fear of Allah(swt)
Others were a level below that
Others were normal Muslims like you and i
Others were suspicious and were unsure if the Prophet (pbuh) was for real
and others were outright hypocrites

They are in varying levels

firstly, Allah azawajal orderd his messanger moses pbuh to go against pharo. moses had the help of Allah and the help of his brother Aaron. this was the ORDER of Allah. so now the order by our prophet muhammed pbuh is what you just quoted muslims are not allowed to go against their ruler (with conditions). what's the wisdom behind that? let me give you the best example of what happened when people of iraq went against saddam hussain. now what! they cry and say it was much better when saddam hussain was alive and our ruler.

1) We have orders as well:
وَقَاتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّـهِ الَّذِينَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ وَلَا تَعْتَدُوا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْمُعْتَدِينَ
وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَخْرِجُوهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ أَخْرَجُوكُمْ ۚ وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ ۚ وَلَا تُقَاتِلُوهُمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّىٰ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ ۖ فَإِن قَاتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ جَزَاءُ الْكَافِرِينَ
فَإِنِ انتَهَوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّـهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
وَقَاتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّىٰ لَا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ لِلَّـهِ ۖ فَإِنِ انتَهَوْا فَلَا عُدْوَانَ إِلَّا عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ

And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely God does not love those who exceed the limits
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers
But if they desist, then surely God is Forgiving, Merciful
And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors(2:190-193)


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللَّـهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّـهِ وَلَا يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لَائِمٍ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّـهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّـهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then God will bring a people whom he loves and they love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, striving hard in God's way and not fearing any criticism; this is God's favor, He gives it to whom He pleases, and God is Ample-giving, Knowing.(5:54)
Do you criticize al-Husayn (as) for opposing the ruler of his time? And keep in mind the status of al-Husayn(as) and the status of yazeed(la) as you ponder over this

2) i am one of the "people of Iraq" and nobody misses saddam(la) except for the ba'this. The Shia, Kurds, and most Sunnis are happy that he's gone. Even most of the secularists are glad he's gone. He(la) stole all of our oil money for his dozens of palaces and he installed fear and terror into the hearts of the Iraqi people. i don't know of a single Iraqi family (except the highly secular ba'thi ones) that didn't have someone killed or tortured by saddam(la). We're quite happy to be allowed the criticize the government now without being worried about disappearing in the middle of the night, thank you very much.

okay, here i have no idea what you're chatting about... but do you deny that you have a bank account? are interest being taken or do you receive interests, i don't know. one things for sure, almost everyone in the civilized world deal with banks, they have no choice... their income comes via account, they have credit or debit cards which involve in all this interest based stuff. so in this case it is permitted to choose the lesser of two evils, and that is the beauty of islam.

i'm not talking about usury here; i'm talking about how flawed using analogy(qiyas) is in Islamic rulings.

was salam

Edited by lotfilms, 23 July 2010 - 12:20 PM.




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