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12 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

History says it was all about the Jews.

 

History says besides 6 million Jews many Gypsies also were gassed in concentration camps.. Far from that many, thou a larger percetage of the gypsie population. Mentally handicapped and other unconvenient individuals also vanished this way. 

Edited by andres

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On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Son of Placid said:

After much study, (from my view point), The Qur'an confirms past scripture, fills in blanks, and refutes faulty doctrines. 

The Bible say Jesus was killed. The Quran say he was not. How can this be a filling in of blanks?

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5 hours ago, andres said:

The Bible say Jesus was killed. The Quran say he was not. How can this be a filling in of blanks?

The Bible says He gave up the ghost. If I die before you kill me, did you kill me?

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1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

The Bible says He gave up the ghost. If I die before you kill me, did you kill me?

 Can a soul die? When we speak about dying are we not speaking about the body? If so, Muhammed said Jesus body was not killed. This is not what the Gospels say. 

 

 

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Just now, andres said:

 Can a soul die? When we speak about dying are we not speaking about the body? If so, Muhammed said Jesus body was not killed. This is not what the Gospels say. 

 

 

We must have different Gospels.

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Hi Son if Placid

You ought to reconsider this. From the Bible it is clear that those of Jesus followers that witnessed the crucifixion testified that Jesus died on the cross after having been crucified by the Romans that gave in to the Jewish mob. There is nothing in the NT to support that "in your hands I command my spirit" means they believed nobody killed Jesus and that he "escaped" before his body died. 

Now, is it this "clarification" that Muhammed 600 years later was told? The wording in the Quran is very short and unprecise. If meant to inform that this unknown scenery was what actually happened, the Quran has totally failed. Most certainly Muhammed just wish to say that Jesus was not crucified at all. The thought that a man sent by God would die on a cross because God needed this sacrifice to pay for the sins of his creation once and for all, probably seemed crazy to him. That someone can be put to death in another persons stead, also collides modern thinking. 

The Quran does not fill in missing info in the Bible. The Quran contradicts the Bible, creating a new religion

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Surah 4 is all about the Jews. The Jews boasted they killed Jesus. The Qur'an say they did not. At the time the country was under Roman rule. A Jew could not even convict, nor punish anyone legally, let alone publicly. The Jews never laid a hand on Jesus. 

What supports  "into thine hands I commit my spirit" is that he gave out a sigh and breathed his last. We're talking before the same day was over. People used to hang on crosses for days, not hours. That was the punishment of crucifixion was days of torture before eventual death. The two that hung with Jesus were alive when the soldier came to finish them off before Passover. How do you explain?  

Mainstream likes to consider the healing of the soldier's ear as His last miracle. Mainstream likes to pass over the details and are fine with a standing contradiction. Islam always likes a good contradiction, but they also have varying stories on what happened. Some say the day never happened, some say He was swapped out. Regardless...

4:162, among them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers,.. (Disciples) went on to preach a risen Savior. 

 

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I fully agree that Jesus was crucified by the Romans, and that the responsability was Pilates. I guess we could interpret "they (=the Jews) killed him not" , meaning he was killed, just not by the Jews. But more likely is that Muhammed meant that Jesus was not crucified at all. 

Jesus also said: today you will be with me in paradise" , does this mean the robber has been in heaven for 2.000 years now? Maybe we shall not take it litterally. The writer of the Gospel was a normal human from a distant age.

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2 hours ago, andres said:

I fully agree that Jesus was crucified by the Romans, and that the responsability was Pilates. I guess we could interpret "they (=the Jews) killed him not" , meaning he was killed, just not by the Jews. But more likely is that Muhammed meant that Jesus was not crucified at all. 

Jesus also said: today you will be with me in paradise" , does this mean the robber has been in heaven for 2.000 years now? Maybe we shall not take it litterally. The writer of the Gospel was a normal human from a distant age.

I can't totally reconcile the entire event, but coming from the perspective that God would not allow conflicting scriptures over the centuries, there is a much better chance the corruption is in the interpretation rather than the letter.

It would seem, Matthew was the main recorder. He was well versed in language and as a previous tax collector, probably paid good attention to detail. It is possible that Mark and Like worked together on some records and apart on others. Of course 4 Gospels from 4 witnesses with different backgrounds perspectives, and vantage points would not see everything the same, as in, John heard what Jesus said, but Luke was obviously out of earshot, or far enough away it was inaudible to him. Thus the varied reports. Kind of hard to be a Disciple at that time. I believe it was John almost got caught while Peter denied, then wept bitterly.

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Hi SoP

If you assume that God does not allow conflicting scriptures over the centuries, of course you will have to make them match. 

However this also means you must disregard all historical and archeological evidence that say monotheism first occured 3.000 years ago, in America only 500 years ago. Or do you believe stoneage people were monotheists? Does the Bible not say Abraham was the first? And wich scriptures must match?  Only the Bible and the Quran? 

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10 hours ago, andres said:

Hi SoP

If you assume that God does not allow conflicting scriptures over the centuries, of course you will have to make them match. 

However this also means you must disregard all historical and archeological evidence that say monotheism first occured 3.000 years ago, in America only 500 years ago. Or do you believe stoneage people were monotheists? Does the Bible not say Abraham was the first? And wich scriptures must match?  Only the Bible and the Quran? 

I'm not sure what it is I have to disregard. What archaeological evidence must I ignore? I don't know any stone age people to ask.

 

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12 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

I'm not sure what it is I have to disregard. What archaeological evidence must I ignore? I don't know any stone age people to ask.

 

You are not interested in archeology, thats OK. 

If I undetstand you correct, there are no contradictions between the Bible and the Quran. Are there other Books in this group? Book of Mormon for example? 

 

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4 hours ago, andres said:

You are not interested in archeology, thats OK. 

If I undetstand you correct, there are no contradictions between the Bible and the Quran. Are there other Books in this group? Book of Mormon for example? 

 

Not sure how the book of Mormon would make the list. I know very little about them. They came to my door, I offered them a coffee, they told me in their religion they didn't drink coffee. Never heard anything they said after that.

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4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Not sure how the book of Mormon would make the list. I know very little about them. They came to my door, I offered them a coffee, they told me in their religion they didn't drink coffee. Never heard anything they said after that.

But Quran and all Books in our Bible are on the list. A combined Jewish-Christian-Muslim religion is what you believe in. Is there such congregation somewhere or are you alone?

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Christ came to prepare Jews for Islam. Zoroaster did the same in Persia. Not only does bible symbolize the 12 Imams, it also mentions the names of the Prophet of Islam, Imam Ali, Hussain, Naqi, Mahdi and Lady Sediqa (pbut) in various verses. The event of Karbala, Ghadeer and the Occultation of the last Imam were openly foretold in the Bible but they were lost in the translations. Here is where you can get the evidences: lulu.com search the book titled "The Spirit Of Truth, Bible the Herald of Quran" By Esmail Hemmati.

This book also takes you to the verses from Avesta of Zoroaster where mentions revelation of Quran in Mecca and Imam Mahdi.

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On 6/29/2017 at 10:22 AM, Parakleet said:

Christ came to prepare Jews for Islam. Zoroaster did the same in Persia. Not only does bible symbolize the 12 Imams, it also mentions the names of the Prophet of Islam, Imam Ali, Hussain, Naqi, Mahdi and Lady Sediqa (pbut) in various verses. The event of Karbala, Ghadeer and the Occultation of the last Imam were openly foretold in the Bible but they were lost in the translations. Here is where you can get the evidences: lulu.com search the book titled "The Spirit Of Truth, Bible the Herald of Quran" By Esmail Hemmati.

This book also takes you to the verses from Avesta of Zoroaster where mentions revelation of Quran in Mecca and Imam Mahdi.

Not going to buy a $30. book to find out what one man has discouvered. The Bible has a lot of symbolism and in areas is vague on descriptions. Many like to interpret these vague descriptions in forms that suit their preference. Jews have done it, Christians have done it, now Muslims want to do it too.

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On 4/27/2017 at 0:23 AM, andres said:

But Quran and all Books in our Bible are on the list. A combined Jewish-Christian-Muslim religion is what you believe in. Is there such congregation somewhere or are you alone?

No congregation in my range. The area is predominantly Mennonite for many kilometers around. Most towns, (50klm radius) have one Catholic church and a half dozen Protestant. Not much for Jews, less for Muslims.

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On 6/29/2017 at 6:22 PM, Parakleet said:

Christ came to prepare Jews for Islam. Zoroaster did the same in Persia. Not only does bible symbolize the 12 Imams, it also mentions the names of the Prophet of Islam, Imam Ali, Hussain, Naqi, Mahdi and Lady Sediqa (pbut) in various verses. The event of Karbala, Ghadeer and the Occultation of the last Imam were openly foretold in the Bible but they were lost in the translations. Here is where you can get the evidences: lulu.com search the book titled "The Spirit Of Truth, Bible the Herald of Quran" By Esmail Hemmati.

This book also takes you to the verses from Avesta of Zoroaster where mentions revelation of Quran in Mecca and Imam Mahdi.

I totally agree wit SoP. " Many like to interpret these vague descriptions in forms that suit their preference. Jews have done it, Christians have done it, now Muslims want to do it too". I wish to add; some Christians, Muslims and Jews still do.

That older religions have inspired newer is a known fact. Zoroastrism have left traces into all three Monitheistic religions. Zoroastrism itself was inspired by earlier religions.

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