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My head is now spinning! subhanallah!

This has been a really interesting thread....

To me however, the bible is confusing even to christians... they all interpret it differently, and so many things were written in parables and etc that it is so confusing even having been raised to know it... i think it can be dangerous and dare I say even can be a wasted effort to put that much thought and weight into the bible... it has clearly been tampered with...

I know what you mean by confusing at times, and there are no Hadeeths to explain it. Then again Hadeeth can be an iffy thing as well. They can be like dogmatic commentaries.

You should explain to me what is clearly tampered with.

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Salaamu aleikum,

The imams (as) are higher than the prophets (as). They (as) were created before the prophets (as). Read this; http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/8.html

Imam Ali (as) is the divider between hell and heaven and he's not a prophet he's an imam. The rank of imam is higher than the rank of a prophet. Notice that prophet Ibrahim (as) had a rank as a prophet before he was ranked as imam.

It is noted that the prophet Jesus (p) will pray behind imam Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Our imams are not simply successors, they are the reason for creation of mankind. Read hadith al kisa:

ÞóÇáó: ” ٱáÓøóáÇãõ Úóáóíúßó íóÇ ÑóÓõæáó ٱááøóåö! ٱáúÚóáöíøõ ٱáÇÚúáóìٰ íõÞúÑöÆõßó ٱáÓøóáÇóãó¡ æóíóÎõÕøõßó ÈöٱáÊøóÍöíøóÉö æóٱáÅößúÑóÇãö¡ æóíóÞõæúáõ áóßó: ’æóÚöÒøóÊöí æóÌóáÇáöí¡ Åöäøöí ãóÇ ÎóáóÞúÊõ ÓóãóÇÁð ãóÈúäöíøóÉð¡ æóáÇó ÇÑúÖÇð ãóÏúÍöíøóÉð¡ æóáÇó ÞóãóÑÇð ãõäöíÑÇð¡ æóáÇó ÔóãúÓÇð ãõÖöíÆóÉð¡ æóáÇó ÝóáóßÇð íóÏõæúÑõ¡ æóáÇó ÈóÍúÑÇð íóÌúÑöí¡ æóáÇó ÝõáúßÇð íóÓúÑöí ÅöáÇøó áÇöÌúáößõãú æóãóÍóÈøóÊößõãú.

Gabriel the Honest Archangel descended, "Peace be upon you, O Allah’s Messenger!" he greeted, "The Most High and All-high (Lord) conveys to you His greeting, expresses His special greeting and honoring to you, and says, ‘By My Almightiness and My Majesty I take this oath: I have not created any well-established sky, extended land, glowing moon, shining sun, revolving planet, flowing ocean, or moving on ark except for your sake and for your love.’

There are lots of hadiths, be it sunni or shia,

that have the prophet (p) mentioning each successor by their name.

There are a lot more to them than just successors, it's a shame people

only stick to their biographies as if they were no better than just a regular

person like you and I.

(salam)

My point was, be careful when using the Bible. Remember that the books in the Old Testament were originally not divided in verses and chapters - you can't really pick and choose things you like from it, and then leave the rest. So if it says "12 princes", and then gives the description of these 12 princes, taking one part of it and saying the other part was fabricated, without proper evidence, is not a good argument. It reminds me of what some Christians do when they say the capture, trial, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus fulfills 300 OT prophecies - it's simply not true. If there was substantive evidence that the later part of the verse was fabricated, then your argument would be valid, but at this point we do not know if the 1st part is fabricated or not, if the 2nd part was fabricated or not, or if the entire text was authentic (as a whole) or not.

Furthermore, I find it unlikely that the 12 A'immah (as) were mentioned at that period. There aren't many prophets, for example, that the Old Testament talks about before their birth, let alone successors of prophets. Isaiah talks about the Messiah, Malachi talks about John the Baptist, but I think that's pretty much it. Moreover, the Qur'an itself does not talk about the specific number of Imams, and its evident that even some from the early Shiite community did not know that there will be 12. It would be a bit strange to say that Moses and the Jews knew about the 12 Imams, but not many of the actual followers of the Imams.

I think at this point it is nothing more than a plausibility, but to prove that it is likely is another story.

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Salam Alaykum,

You are right. This verse not only tell us about the fact that our twelve beloved Imams (may God's peace and blessing be upon them all) are descendants of Ishmael. This verse also tell us that our beloved prophet Mohammad (may God's peace and blessing be upon him and his immaculate progeny) is from Ishmael. However, the jewish scholar, as they are experts in distorting the words and the truth, have this distorted this verse's translation as to hide the truth. Please notice the 'transliteration' of the verse Genesis 17:20.

ûl'yish'mäël sh'ma'Tiykhä hiNëh Bërakh'Tiy otô w'hif'rëytiy otô w'hir'Bëytiy otô Bi m'od m'od sh'nëym-äsär n'siyim yôliyd ûn'taTiyw l'gôy Gädôl

In all of the bibles' it has been translated as something similar to this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."

The word mo'd mo'd is actually is a name. Can you guess which holy name this is? If you guessed Mohammad, then you are correct.

However, it seems to me the words fruitful, and great numbers are what they have translated Mo'd Mo'd as.

So, in conclusion, the verse not only gives the glad tidings of the twelve Imams,(pbuh) but also our beloved prophet (pbuhahf). So I think the correct translation should be something like this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father Mohammad of twelve kings, and I will make him into a great nation."

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10 hours ago, Hadi Ataei said:

 

ûl'yish'mäël sh'ma'Tiykhä hiNëh Bërakh'Tiy otô w'hif'rëytiy otô w'hir'Bëytiy otô Bi m'od m'od sh'nëym-äsär n'siyim yôliyd ûn'taTiyw l'gôy Gädôl

In all of the bibles' it has been translated as something similar to this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."

The word mo'd mo'd is actually is a name. Can you guess which holy name this is? If you guessed Mohammad, then you are correct.

However, it seems to me the words fruitful, and great numbers are what they have translated Mo'd Mo'd as.

So, in conclusion, the verse not only gives the glad tidings of the twelve Imams,(pbuh) but also our beloved prophet (pbuhahf). So I think the correct translation should be something like this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father Mohammad of twelve kings, and I will make him into a great nation."

This is incorrect. You assert that "Jewish scholars are experts at distorting the words and truth", yet you find a need to insert Muhammad into a verse in which he doesn't appear? That's called irony, my friend.

I don't claim to be an expert on Hebrew, but בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד (b'me'od me'od) is what your translation has rendered as "great numbers". מְאֹד means "very" or "exceedingly". בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד would then mean "very very much" or "very exceedingly". A more thorough literal translation might look something like this:

וּלְיִשְׁמָעֵאל שְׁמַעְתִּיךָ הִנֵּה בֵּרַכְתִּי אֹתוֹ וְהִפְרֵיתִי אֹתוֹ וְהִרְבֵּיתִי אֹתוֹ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר נְשִׂיאִם יוֹלִיד וּנְתַתִּיו לְגוֹי גָּדוֹל

וּלְיִשְׁמָעֵאל -- And for Ishmael שְׁמַעְתִּיךָ -- I have heard you הִנֵּה -- behold בֵּרַכְתִּי אֹתוֹ -- I have blessed him וְהִפְרֵיתִי אֹתוֹ -- and will make fruitful him וְהִרְבֵּיתִי אֹתוֹ -- and increase/multiply him בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד -- in very exceedingly שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר -- two [and] ten נְשִׂיאִם -- princes/rulers יוֹלִיד -- beget/father וּנְתַתִּיו -- and make/accomplish [I don't know this word] לְגוֹי גָּדוֹל -- his nation great.

Salam and Shalom

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You seem to have more knowledge of Hebrew than I do, so I take your word for it. 

Also, could you please tell me what the word "b'me'od me'od" means? Could it be referring to a name or a person? What would the literal meaning of it be?

Thank you,

-- Hadi Ataei

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On 3/2/2010 at 8:32 AM, AlayhisSalaam said:

"As for Ishmael, I will bless him also, just as you have asked. I will make him extremely fruitful and multiply his descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." Bible - Genesis Chapter 17, Verse 20

I was just reading this last night and the same thought occurred to me as you and I stumbled on your thread. As someone else mentioned Ishmael also had 12 sons so as far as I can tell with my limited knowledge of the subject I suppose it could be referring to either on or both. I am interested if there are other views on this.

I would however point out that your reasoning of the Bible scriptures is not consistent. It is illogical to presume that its scriptures are fallible but then use them to prove your belief. I don't outright refute your interpretation that Habakkuk 3:3 is referring to your Prophet; however I would suggest, this verse is referring to the law being given to Moses as recorded in the Bible. As far as I can tell a third reasonable understanding of this verse could be that the prophesy is not yet fulfilled.

I would agree it is clear Islam teaches that the Bible is not to be trusted. Hypothetically speaking I would also suggest a reasonable textual interpretation of the Bible (under the presumption it is true) would invalidate the Koran - that is because the Bible and Koran have disagreements. It would seem that there is no way to discern one is truth over the other without presupposing on faith that one of them is true and building your belief system from that, that is unless you have some extra scriptural knowledge (which I don't).

If the scriptures of the Bible were purposefully falsified they are much different than I would expect. I would hardly expect verses like 2 Kings 21:12-14 to read as they do and not have been changed.

Peace be to you,

-A

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On 1/27/2017 at 9:39 AM, aflyer said:

If the scriptures of the Bible were purposefully falsified they are much different than I would expect. I would hardly expect verses like 2 Kings 21:12-14 to read as they do and not have been changed.

Peace be to you,

-A

One would also expect to see Jesus saying, "I am God", or at least mention His position in a trinity. 

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 I wouldn't say that the Bible and the Qur'an contradict one another but they are saying the same thing from different view points. It wouldn't make sense for the Qur'an to retell the entire story of Abraham (A.S.) because people in Muhammad's (A.S.) time already new the story. Instead the Qur'an tells aspects that may not be known to stress a certain point. Ishmael (A.S.) could have been sent away after he build the Ka'ba with his father. Just because he was sent away doesn't mean people lost touch, the Bible also says that at some point Isaac (A.S.) lived with Ishmael (A.S.) for a period of time. 

  The Bible (Tanakh more specific) and the Qur'an has many layers to it, some plain, some not. I think that the Twelve Princes of Ishmael is telling of the Twelve Tribes of Ishmaelites, the twelve names giving were the heads of each tribe. This doesn't mean a connection can't be made between the 12 Imams but you'd have to study what we know of the Ishmalite Tribal leaders and see if they match with the Imams. 

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6 hours ago, Abdul Batin Bey said:

 I wouldn't say that the Bible and the Qur'an contradict one another but they are saying the same thing from different view points. It wouldn't make sense for the Qur'an to retell the entire story of Abraham (A.S.) because people in Muhammad's (A.S.) time already new the story. Instead the Qur'an tells aspects that may not be known to stress a certain point. Ishmael (A.S.) could have been sent away after he build the Ka'ba with his father. Just because he was sent away doesn't mean people lost touch, the Bible also says that at some point Isaac (A.S.) lived with Ishmael (A.S.) for a period of time. 

  The Bible (Tanakh more specific) and the Qur'an has many layers to it, some plain, some not. I think that the Twelve Princes of Ishmael is telling of the Twelve Tribes of Ishmaelites, the twelve names giving were the heads of each tribe. This doesn't mean a connection can't be made between the 12 Imams but you'd have to study what we know of the Ishmalite Tribal leaders and see if they match with the Imams. 

After much study, (from my view point), The Qur'an confirms past scripture, fills in blanks, and refutes faulty doctrines. One Almighty God would not preserve contradicting scriptures, not possible. If we find contradictions it is because we are looking for them. The proper study would take into account all unbiased view points,  The trick is to properly recognize the bias, then it's value. One key aspect to watch for is bias that leads to a separation between true believers. 

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1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

After much study, (from my view point), The Qur'an confirms past scripture, fills in blanks, and refutes faulty doctrines. One Almighty God would not preserve contradicting scriptures, not possible. If we find contradictions it is because we are looking for them. The proper study would take into account all unbiased view points,  The trick is to properly recognize the bias, then it's value. One key aspect to watch for is bias that leads to a separation between true believers. 

I read the Bible often. I find the views of Christian masses somewhat different to what the Bible says, For example, Prophet Noah is blameless. We do not see anything like trinity in the Bible. 

But then I read phrases in the Bible that just seem to not just go against other verses in the Bible, but against reason and the Quran, and this I have trouble with. For example, we see Noah being later described as a drunkard. Jacob tricking his father Isaac in order to get his blessing. Lot getting drunk and having sex with his daughters. I mean there is a lot of strange things.

These things do not seem to fit in with the rest of the Bible and the logical message of God as a concept. Eg If God wants us to recognise his messengers, surely they must be of good character?

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On 30/03/2017 at 3:18 PM, whirlingmerc said:

No...  it is a prophesy of 12 sons... just as Jacob had 12 sons

Is that just belief or is there corroborating evidence for that statement?

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20 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I read the Bible often. I find the views of Christian masses somewhat different to what the Bible says, For example, Prophet Noah is blameless. We do not see anything like trinity in the Bible. 

But then I read phrases in the Bible that just seem to not just go against other verses in the Bible, but against reason and the Quran, and this I have trouble with. For example, we see Noah being later described as a drunkard. Jacob tricking his father Isaac in order to get his blessing. Lot getting drunk and having sex with his daughters. I mean there is a lot of strange things.

These things do not seem to fit in with the rest of the Bible and the logical message of God as a concept. Eg If God wants us to recognise his messengers, surely they must be of good character?

 I think we also have to recognize that some meanings that we take for granted may be imposed on the scripture rather than what the scripture actually says. We need to approach both the Bible and the Qur'an as One Book while pushing out ideas that may have gained popularity overtime. It's tough because everyone imposes something on scripture. 

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12 minutes ago, Abdul Batin Bey said:

 I think we also have to recognize that some meanings that we take for granted may be imposed on the scripture rather than what the scripture actually says. We need to approach both the Bible and the Qur'an as One Book while pushing out ideas that may have gained popularity overtime. It's tough because everyone imposes something on scripture. 

Yes, no doubt as things are translated and copied, we have to wonder if they translated the wording, or their understanding of the meaning.

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On 4/16/2017 at 2:12 PM, iraqi_shia said:

I read the Bible often. I find the views of Christian masses somewhat different to what the Bible says, For example, Prophet Noah is blameless. We do not see anything like trinity in the Bible. 

But then I read phrases in the Bible that just seem to not just go against other verses in the Bible, but against reason and the Quran, and this I have trouble with. For example, we see Noah being later described as a drunkard. Jacob tricking his father Isaac in order to get his blessing. Lot getting drunk and having sex with his daughters. I mean there is a lot of strange things.

These things do not seem to fit in with the rest of the Bible and the logical message of God as a concept. Eg If God wants us to recognise his messengers, surely they must be of good character?

Add King Solomon who apparently had a weakness for women.

I'm not sure what to do with these stories. I believe they are there for a reason, maybe to let us know that nobody is safe from evil. It would seem that when satan can't get a grasp on a leader he goes after those closest to him. Some of the worst kids I knew were preachers kids. Everything from pre teen rebellion to armed robbery. 

Again, I'm not sure if it shares any relevance to the Nazarite vows outlined in Numbers 6. Even though this vow is for servanthood, it is not a life long duty. Not sure how you hold to such standards, then go back to being average people. 

Lot is a strange story from beginning to end. He's supposed to be a Prophet, but has no following. Come to find out he's the only one righteous in two adjoining cities, manages to escape with his two daughters. Hides in the caves, afraid to go into the next city, his daughters want children and don't see any other way, considering circumstances. The oddest part of all is that the lineage of Jesus Christ passes through Lot and his daughter's child. There is no mention that Lot had any sons to pass on the genes. There are also cases in the Bible where incest was a thing and not always considered a sin. Moses father is said to have married his aunt, (his father's sister) It's hard to judge ancient history by today's rules. Especially if the rules didn't apply at the time.

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2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

The oddest part of all is that the lineage of Jesus Christ passes through Lot and his daughter's child. 

Hi SoP

As you are aware, Muslims don't believe in the incest story.

In any case, I seriously doubt that Jesus would have been born in the line of incest.

The Islamic belief is that prophets cannot have a flaw in their lineage.

2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Add King Solomon who apparently had a weakness for women.

Multiple marriages are not necessarily because of sexual desire. In any case, I don't think we know enough about Solomon. Historians seem to have concealed a fair bit about him. 

The Quran asserts that David and Solomon were both men of high morals. God gave wisdom and knowledge to David and Solomon (Q. 21:79). That sort of statement in the Quran subsumes moral elevation.

David was near to God in station (Q. 38:25). And he frequently turned to God (Q. 38:17).

All those statements rule out the adulterous picture the Bible paints of him.

I am not trying to say that the Quran is right and the Bible is wrong, but they do contradict each other.

They take completely opposite stands on the issue of people highly regarded by Islam.

Therefore both cannot be right.

2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Lot is a strange story from beginning to end. He's supposed to be a Prophet, but has no following. 

Are you saying that the Bible recognizes Lot as a prophet?  

Many prophets were rejected by their people.

That is quite understandable.

And so they had no following.

   

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On 17/04/2017 at 6:12 AM, iraqi_shia said:

If God wants us to recognise his messengers, surely they must be of good character?

Yes, the Islamic view is that God will not  appoint men as prophets unless they were among the highest and the best.

That applies to all of them, including Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon and Lot.

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9 hours ago, baqar said:

Yes, the Islamic view is that God will not  appoint men as prophets unless they were among the highest and the best.

That applies to all of them, including Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon and Lot.

Yes, I appreciate that, I was wondering how the Christians reconcile this dilemma. 

I would also add that I believe Prophet Ibrahem AS had a very small following, the Quran said he was a community by himself. Also Prophet Noah AS also had a very small following that took a long time to build up.

I think the number of followers is no indicator to a prophets behavior. 

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On 4/18/2017 at 2:54 AM, baqar said:

Hi SoP

As you are aware, Muslims don't believe in the incest story.

In any case, I seriously doubt that Jesus would have been born in the line of incest.

The Islamic belief is that prophets cannot have a flaw in their lineage.   

I'm aware of the Islamic belief, but I can't find enough evidence to disprove what was written centuries before. Many would like to say the Holocaust didn't happen. I would go so far as to say it didn't happen as history portrays. To say it didn't happen because it should not have happened is to exchange truth for opinion, aka tomorrow's truth. 

It's one thing to call a man righteous, it's another to call him righteous all his life. At the moment I'm not sure how it's written in the Qur'an but in most cases it seems a Prophet comes around and nobody totally knows their actual past, we must assume in every case they could never have done anything wrong. 

On 4/18/2017 at 2:54 AM, baqar said:

Are you saying that the Bible recognizes Lot as a prophet?  

Lot was a nephew of a Prophet. He was most successful when raising livestock. He is assumed to be a Biblical Prophet because his story is told. It's more than just a following that makes a prophet. 

What actual Prophet-like stuff did he do?

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8 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I'm aware of the Islamic belief, but I can't find enough evidence to disprove what was written centuries before. 

I fully understand that. As I indicated before, I was not trying to push the view that the Quran is right and the Bible is wrong.  

And I see your point very well.

From the view-point of logic, both can be wrong but both cannot be right. 

8 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

What actual Prophet-like stuff did he do?

According to the Quran, he stood his ground and did not show weakness when confronted by people who wished to go against the law of God.

He tells his people not to oppose him lest the calamities that befell earlier generations should befall them [11:89].

He tells them to fear God and obey him [26:163].

And he felt sorry for them when he found that they were going to be punished by God [29:33].

He pleads with them not to fall into sin [11:78]. 

God sent his messengers (angels) to Lot [15:61].

Edited by baqar

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14 hours ago, baqar said:

God sent his messengers (angels) to Lot [15:61].

I am afraid this is the only thing on the list that is above the capabilities of a common believer. Then again, as the OT reads, angelic visits were much more common in those times, so that can't be considered proof positive either. 

Lot made many bad decisions. Abram rescued Lot from Kedorlaomer and his allies so Lot went back to the same bad decision, found a city girl, got married, had kids, lived the city life. I tend more to believe Lot was saved because of the pleas of Abram. They call him a patriarch, but I'm not seeing that either. Sorry if I misled you. 

 

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On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:54 AM, baqar said:

The Quran asserts that David and Solomon were both men of high morals. God gave wisdom and knowledge to David and Solomon (Q. 21:79). That sort of statement in the Quran subsumes moral elevation.

David was near to God in station (Q. 38:25). And he frequently turned to God (Q. 38:17).

All those statements rule out the adulterous picture the Bible paints of him.

There is no doubt that the Bible gives a different picture of David and Solomon than does the Quran

I do not know if you know the story about David and Batseba, the woman that David wanted to have as wife. David made her pregnant while she still was married to Urias. David solved the problem by having Urias placed in first row under a battle. Urias died, David married Batseba. God was not happy with his servant. 

And Solomon. He built his temple, and in it he placed statues of the Godess Ashera, wife of the Kanaanean god "El", to make some of his pagan wives happy.

These are stories from the Bible. 

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On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Son of Placid said:

After much study, (from my view point), The Qur'an confirms past scripture, fills in blanks, and refutes faulty doctrines. 

"They killed him not" . No further explanation. This is no " filling in blanks" to me. It could mean that Jesus did not die, or it could mean it was the Romans that killed Jesus and not the Jews, as Pilate said as he washed his hands.

The Quran has not got much to say, how can you explain this as a filling in of blanks?

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On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Son of Placid said:

.... Many would like to say the Holocaust didn't happen. I would go so far as to say it didn't happen as history portrays.

WHAT?????

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