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hamari mustanad kitabon me mutta ka bohat clear ahkamat milte han or baz books me jese haq ul yaqeen or shafi jese books me yahan tuk likha ha k mutta kerne wala hazrat ali or hazrat muhammad SAW jesa maqam pai ga to phir hamare yahan is topic per bat kerna bhi zaroori nahi samjha jata or koi baap apni beti or koi bhai apni bhan k liye mutta ko pasaand nahi kerta .to phir sunnion ka ye kehna sahi ha k mutta ik fahsh amal ha jis ko shia mazhab halal kehta ha or agar halal kehta ha to phir apni mao behno k liye khule dil se qabool kiun nahi kerta

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hamari mustanad kitabon me mutta ka bohat clear ahkamat milte han or baz books me jese haq ul yaqeen or shafi jese books me yahan tuk likha ha k mutta kerne wala hazrat ali or hazrat muhammad SAW jesa maqam pai ga to phir hamare yahan is topic per bat kerna bhi zaroori nahi samjha jata or koi baap apni beti or koi bhai apni bhan k liye mutta ko pasaand nahi kerta .to phir sunnion ka ye kehna sahi ha k mutta ik fahsh amal ha jis ko shia mazhab halal kehta ha or agar halal kehta ha to phir apni mao behno k liye khule dil se qabool kiun nahi kerta

is topic par pehaly baat hochuki hey dost AUR rahi baat jo aap keh rahey hein tu yeh tu suna hi hoga "kitab dost bhi hey aur dushman bhi"...Achi kitab achayi sikhaye gi ,buri kitaab gumrah karey gi.Kitaab tu shayed buri na hou kiyun key jis ney likhi hogi us ko woh baatein sahi lagti hoongi tu (smajhney waley par munhasir hey)

aur agr waaqiyan mein aap ko woh janana hey jo sach hey aur jo sahi hey tu issi topic sey related mein ney kayi jaga baat ki hey,aap is topic sey related forums ko khool kar check karein and dekhein key mein ney kiya baat ki hey aur baaqi sab key kiya nazriye hein.

is urdu forum par tu nahin,liken baaqi dosrey forums jahan yeh baat hoti hey

Is key ilawa agr aap quran bhut zouq-o-shauq sey parhtey hein aur us ki ayaton ko sirf parhtey hi nahin smajhney ki bhi kooshish kartey hein tu Quran sey behtar koi kitab nahin.

InshaAllah,aap ko apney is sawal ka jawab wahan mil jaye ga.

Saath saath duaon ko bhi jariye rakhiye ga

Waisey aap key sawal mein hi aap ka jawab maujood hey,alhamdulillah

Bus aap ko samjhney ki zaroorat hey. :angel:

Jazakallah kheir

Allah sab ko hidayat dey

Edited by asher

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Islam aur muslaman mei bohat bara farq hai.. Kissi nay kaha tha kay islam duniya ka behtreen mazhab hai or musalman badtareen follower. Yaha bhee wohee masla hai.. kiyonkay log isko passand nahi kartay ya upni maoo behno kay liyay yeh lafz sunna bhee nahi passand kartay, issay jaiz ya najiaz hona bilkol sabit nahi hota.

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kiyonkay log isko passand nahi kartay ya upni maoo behno kay liyay yeh lafz sunna bhee nahi passand kartay, issay jaiz ya najiaz hona bilkol sabit nahi hota.

Dost faraqh hota hey.Zara samajh kar tu dekho.Bhut bara faraq dikhey ga.

Quran ko dil sey parh kar tu dekho asr hoga(InshaAllah)

us ki ayaton ko tu samajh kar dekho rooshni hogi.(InshaAllah)

Allah sey muhabbat kar key tu dekho dil ka sukoon miley ga

Us sey dua maang kar tu dekho dil sey,us sey hidayat maang kar tu dekho...Us sey woh ilm maang kar tu dekho jo nafa dey ..

us sey woh rasta mango jo seedha hou,woh cheez jis mein us ki raza hou...

Faraq dikhey ga....

Zaroor dikhey ga..(inshaAllah)

Quran humein sikhata hey...aksar aakhri ayaton mein aap ney suna hoga...

'in ayaton mein gour-o-fikr karney walon key liye nishaniyan hein'

Edited by asher

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i m sorry me galat jaga per agayi hoon me kai sunni or wahabhi forums pe jati hoon muje afsoos ha k itne nonserious or la ilm log un me nahi wahan bhi youngsters mojood han lakin jin baton me ap log uljhe hoe han wo log nahi

muje apne shia hone pe dukh horaha ha khas ker khak e batool ki baten sun ker jin ko naam ka bhi ahtaram nahi

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hamari mustanad kitabon me mutta ka bohat clear ahkamat milte han or baz books me jese haq ul yaqeen or shafi jese books me yahan tuk likha ha k mutta kerne wala hazrat ali or hazrat muhammad SAW jesa maqam pai ga to phir hamare yahan is topic per bat kerna bhi zaroori nahi samjha jata or koi baap apni beti or koi bhai apni bhan k liye mutta ko pasaand nahi kerta .to phir sunnion ka ye kehna sahi ha k mutta ik fahsh amal ha jis ko shia mazhab halal kehta ha or agar halal kehta ha to phir apni mao behno k liye khule dil se qabool kiun nahi kerta

..

Loag Fake Profiles Sa Aa Kar Jo Kahain Gay Hum Maan Lan Gay?

..

Ya Uski Baat Ka Jawaab Dan Gay?

..

Behrhaal Jo Ap Na Farmaya Ka Muttah Karnay Walay Nabi Or Imam Jasa Ha,Hairta Ha Mujhay

..

Ap Khud Ko Shia Kah Rahy Han,Mujhay Koi Sahih Riwayat Dikha Dan To Maan Jaon Apko,It's

.

My Challenge To You,

....

muje apne shia hone pe dukh horaha ha

...

Ya Baat Kahnay Wala Kuch Bhe Ho Sakta Ha Mgar Shia Nahy,

..

Behrhaal Muttah ik Sahulat Ha,Sahaaba Na Bhe Muttah Kiya,Ya ik Temporary Nikah Ha,Jis

Main 2 Loag ik Tay Shuda Arsa Tak ik Dosray Ka Sath Rahtay Han,Or Muddat Khatam Honay

Par Woh ik Dosray Sa Alag Ho Jatay Han Or Mehram Nahy Rahtay,

..

Wasalam

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salam,

ye sab Fiqhi,Sharaai masaail hain.

yahan yani Urdu Sub Forum mien aap ko, dil o jigar ko tapanay walay raqeeb, ishq mien roosva, mohabbat mien andhay, piyar mien pagal, es per lattoo, us per wari, sab mil jaain gain, laikin aAp kay sawal ka jawab nahi mil paai ga.

LMAO.

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Itna hangama kiss baat pay ho raha hia... eik cheez jaiz hai to jaiz hai.. agar samjh nahi atta kiyo jaiz hai to upnay app say larain.. SC pay nahi.. or agar yeh gilla hai kay log isko jaiz kiyo nahimantay to loggo key sooch pay aitraaz karein shia mazhab pay nahi... and yes.. chahee koiee kuch kahey.. mei gunnahgar banda hoon lekin is baat pay fakhar hai kay shia hoon.

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syed _demanding me ap ko kal tuk wo sare references dikha doon gi jis me ye kaha gaya ha k mutta kerne wala imam or nabi k derja per ajata ha ,isi ko perh ker to khud per afsoos hoa to apne shia behn bhaion me akar apne dil ka gubar nikal diya ,meri to sirf itni khawahish ha k kash ye mutta jesi manhoos cheez hamare mazhab e shia se nikal di jai kiun k muje gair muslimo or gair shion ko is hawale se face krte hoe barii sharam ati ha

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OHHHH PLZZZZZZZZZZ...BEFORE ANYBODY REPLIES IN HERE......PLEASE CHK OUT THE INTENTIONS OF THE TOPIC STARTER:

hamari mustanad kitabon me mutta ka bohat clear ahkamat milte han or baz books me jese haq ul yaqeen or shafi jese books me yahan tuk likha ha k mutta kerne wala hazrat ali or hazrat muhammad SAW jesa maqam pai ga to phir hamare yahan is topic per bat kerna bhi zaroori nahi samjha jata or koi baap apni beti or koi bhai apni bhan k liye mutta ko pasaand nahi kerta .to phir sunnion ka ye kehna sahi ha k mutta ik fahsh amal ha jis ko shia mazhab halal kehta ha or agar halal kehta ha to phir apni mao behno k liye khule dil se qabool kiun nahi kerta

yeh alfaaz koyee shia apne mu'n se ada nahee karsakta........

1) KOYEE BHEE SHIA MUHAMMAD (s.a.w) AUR AAL E MUHAMMAD (a.s) KE BAARE MEI AISA TASAWWUR BHEE NAHEE KARSAKTA KE WOH UNKE RUTBE TAK PHONCHE...

2) KOYEE SHIA APNE AAPKO ALAG 'MAZHAB' NAHEE KEHELWAYE GA......

aur just incase agar mei 0.00000000000001% chance hai ke mei galat hu'n, to APP PLEASE APNA LEHJA DURUST KEEJIYE.....AUR AAP PLEASE SHIA ISLAM KE BAARE MEI PARHYE AUR PHIR WAHAABIYO'n SE BAAT KARAI'N....APNEE KITAABAI'n PARHEE NAHEE AUR WAHAABI SE BAAT KARNE CHAL DIYE......PEHLE GRADE 1 KA AQAID TO PARHO, PHIR JAAKAR HUQQUL YAQEEN AUR DOOSREE AISEE AZEEM KITAABO'N KE BAARE MEI BAAAT KARNA.....AAP KEE MISAAL WOHEE HAI KE 2 DIN KE BACHE KO THEEKEE NIHAAREE KHILADENA>....PETH TO KHARAB HOGA HEE NA......

useless topic...

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meri to sirf itni khawahish ha k kash ye mutta jesi manhoos cheez hamare mazhab e shia se nikal di jai kiun k muje gair muslimo or gair shion ko is hawale se face krte hoe barii sharam ati ha

+1

salam,

Aray koi hanggama ya jhagdha thori ho raha hai. sab ko apnay apny khayalaat derj kerney ka haq hai.

LOL,ya wanted me to comment on this topic.

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OHHHH PLZZZZZZZZZZ...BEFORE ANYBODY REPLIES IN HERE......PLEASE CHK OUT THE INTENTIONS OF THE TOPIC STARTER:

yeh alfaaz koyee shia apne mu'n se ada nahee karsakta........

1) KOYEE BHEE SHIA MUHAMMAD (s.a.w) AUR AAL E MUHAMMAD (a.s) KE BAARE MEI AISA TASAWWUR BHEE NAHEE KARSAKTA KE WOH UNKE RUTBE TAK PHONCHE...

2) KOYEE SHIA APNE AAPKO ALAG 'MAZHAB' NAHEE KEHELWAYE GA......

aur just incase agar mei 0.00000000000001% chance hai ke mei galat hu'n, to APP PLEASE APNA LEHJA DURUST KEEJIYE.....AUR AAP PLEASE SHIA ISLAM KE BAARE MEI PARHYE AUR PHIR WAHAABIYO'n SE BAAT KARAI'N....APNEE KITAABAI'n PARHEE NAHEE AUR WAHAABI SE BAAT KARNE CHAL DIYE......PEHLE GRADE 1 KA AQAID TO PARHO, PHIR JAAKAR HUQQUL YAQEEN AUR DOOSREE AISEE AZEEM KITAABO'N KE BAARE MEI BAAAT KARNA.....AAP KEE MISAAL WOHEE HAI KE 2 DIN KE BACHE KO THEEKEE NIHAAREE KHILADENA>....PETH TO KHARAB HOGA HEE NA......

useless topic...

Salam ,

you have a point dear.I also see "bint-e ali" as a case of impersonification [as Shia].

The debate can be done even without disguising oneself as Shia.

Mut-aa is not a black spot on Shism that Shias will hesitate to debate on it.

wassalam

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salam,

aAp kiya kehna chah rehai hain asher, kuch samajhnahi aya?

kiya aap kehrehai hain kay sunnat e Rasool[pbuh]ko badal dena jaaiz hai?

ws

(bismillah)

Walaikum salaam, :cry:

Sunnat-e-rasool (pbuh) ki sunnat par chalney key liye tu mein duayein kart hoon.Mein aisa kiyun kahon?Nazu-billah.......

Dost agr aap ney meri aakhri post ka aakhri fiqra parha hey tu us par zara gaur karein.Allah ney quran mein ayaton key aakhir mein aksar yeh farmaya hey khe meri ayaton par gaur karney walon key liye nishaniyan hein..

Is surah ki ayat dekhein aur us par gaur karein :(surah rum)

http://www.quranweb.org/urdu/

Is surat ki ayat raqam 3 par (surah nisa) aur ayat raqam 24 par gaur karein :

http://www.quranweb.org/urdu/

Sirf in ayaton ko agr aap gaur sey parhein aur samjhney ki kooshish karein duaon ko saath jari rakhtey huey(khe Allah mujehy nafay wala ilm ata kar)tu inshaAllah jinhon ney sawal kiya hey "muta" ka in ayaton mein in ka jawab pooshida hey.

Shaadi mein aur muta mein faraqh wazhiya hey.Is ko jaan lenay key bawajood agr aap ussi rah par chalna chahtey hein jo andheray ki taraf ley kar jaye tu Allah key siwa koi hidayat nahin dey sakta.

mein nahin keht khe mein bhut sahih aur seedhay rastey par chalta hoon,albatta duayein hameshan kart hoon...alhamdulillah...

Jis dost ney yeh sawal kiya us mein jawab maujood tha..tu is ka jawab tu unkey sawal key andar tha..

"phir hamare yahan is topic per bat kerna bhi zaroori nahi samjha jata or koi baap apni beti or koi bhai apni bhan k liye mutta ko pasaand nahi kerta "....

yehi is ka jawab hey.Is key ilawa bhi bhut hein liken guro-fikr karney walon jaisey key quran ney kaha.

Sab sey bari baat jo yahan horahi hey.."Shia muslim"....Quran ney ya Allah ney islam key mananey walon ko musalman kaha hey..."shia"..ya "sunni"..nahin...

Surah hajj ki ayat raqam 78 dekhein:

http://www.quranweb.org/urdu/

Humein dosron sey seekhnay key liye Allah ney kabhi mana nahin kiya liken Allah ney yeh bhi kaha hey guro-fikr karo.Ab guro-fikr tu insaan ka dimag khud hi karey ga ,koi dosra tu nahin.. :angel:

Mutah ek waqt key liye sahi tha liken us key baad aney wali nasloon key liye is ko haraam qarar dey diya gaya tha.Ab aney waley kuch logon ney woh baatein nikali hein jo us waqt key liye jayiz thein liken baad mein haraam keh di gayein thein.Woh khud bhi gumrah hein aur logon ko bhi kar rahey hein.Aap shayed meri baaton ko parh kar kahein mein kaun haut hoon yeh kehnay wal?

Liken quran par gaur farmayein,aap ko us key andar hi is ka jawab mil jaye ga.inshaAllah

Sach aur jhoot key faraqh ko janana zaroori hey aur zaroori nahin her insaan sahi hou.Insaan khatayon ko putla hey.

Anbiya karaam (as) sey bhi ghaltiyan huein.

Liken sab sey barh kar insaan woh hey jo apni ghaltiyon ko samjhey aur Allah ki bargaah mein maafi mangey...

Ayatein mein ney aap ko dikha di hein,is par guro-fikr karna aur samjhna aap ka kaam hey jo key Allah ki madad key beghair na mumkin hey.

Meri Allah sey dua hey ko woh sab ko hidayat dey aur nafey waley ilm sey rooshna karey aur humein apney hifzo-aman mein rakhey :cry:

Wasalaam

Edited by asher

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ji jahaan tak mujhe pta ha to mutta ik mubha amal ha jis se na to koi gunnah milta ha or na sawab or jahaan tak HAZRAT MUHAMMAD(SAWW),HAZRAT ALI(AS), OR HAZRAT IMAM HUSSAIN (as) ke darje tak pohanchne wali bat ha to ham kabhi bhe wahaan tak nai pohanch sakte, mujhe dosre shioon ka to nai pta par ham isna ashri shioon ka ye aqeda bilkul nai ha ke jo khuch hamari kitaboon main likha ha wo 100% sahi ha balke in main bhe bohat si zaeeef rawayaat (ghatiyaan) mojood hain jis ki nishaandehi hamare ulma kar chuke hain jaise ALLAMA BAQIR MAJLISI ne maratul kool main isool e kafi ki bohat si ghaltiyaan nikali hain.

W SALAM

YA ALI MADAD

maine ye post apne ilm ke hisaab se ki ha koi ghalti ho to us ke liye mazrat khowaan hoon

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asher bhai kiya aap mujhe btaoo ge ke muta kab se haraam ho gya or kiss ne kiya??????????????

کوئي شخص کسی مسلمان یا پھر کتابی عورت سے محدد مدت کے لیے شادی کرے ، وہ اس طرح کہ اس میں یہ شرط ہو کہ پانچ دن یا دو ماہ یا چھ ماہ یا کچھ سال مدت مقرر کی جائے جس کی ابتداء اورانتھاء دونوں معلوم ہوں ، اوراسے کچھ تھوڑا سامہر بھی ادا کرے ، اورجب مقرر کردہ مدت ختم ہوجائے تووہ اس شادی سے نکل جائے گی ۔

نکاح کی یہ قسم فتح مکہ کے سال تین دن کے لیے جائز کی گئي تھی ، پھر بعد میں اس سے منع کر دیا گيا اورقیامت تک حرام کر دی گئي ، اس کی دلیل مسلم شریف کی حدیث میں موجود ہے : دیکھیں صحیح مسلم حدیث نمبر ( 1406 ) ۔

اوریہ حرام اس لیے بھی ہے کہ بیوی سے تو معاشرت اوربود وباش ایک لمبے عرصے تک ہوتی ہے ، جیسا کہ اللہ تعالی کا فرمان ہے :

{ اوران عورتوں سے اچھے اوراحسن انداز میں بود وباش اختیار کرو } النساء ( 19 ) ۔

اورنکاح متعہ میں اس سے یہ معاشرت لمبی مدت تک نہیں ، اورپھر یہ بھی ہے کہ بیوی کوہی شرعی طور پر بیوی اورزوجہ کانام دیا جاتا ہے اور اس کی صحبت بھی ہمیشہ اورلمبی ہوتی ہے جس کا ذکر اللہ تعالی کے اس فرمان میں ہوا ہے :

{ سوائے اپنی بیویوں کے اوریا پھر اپنی لونڈیوں کے } المؤمنون ( 6 ) ۔

اورنکاح متعہ والی عورت شرعی بیوی نہيں اس لیے کہ اس کا باقی رہنا مؤقت اورتھوڑی سی مدت کے لیے ہے ، پھر یہ بھی ہے کہ بیوی تو اپنے خاوند کی وراث ہے اورخاوند بیوی کا آّپس میں وراث ہونے کی دلیل مندرجہ ذیل فرمان ہے :

{ اورجو کچھ تمہاری بیویاں چھوڑیں اگر ان کی اولاد نہ ہو توتمہارے لیے نصف ہو گا } النساء ( 12 ) ۔

اورنکاح متعہ والی عورت وارث نہيں بنتی کیونکہ مرد کے ساتھ تھوڑی سی مدت کی بنا پر یہ بیوی ہی نہیں بنی ۔

لھذا اس بنا پر نکاح متعہ زنا شمار ہوگا ، اگرچہ مرد اورعورت دونوں اس پر رضامند بھی ہوں اورمدت بھی لمبی ہوجائے اورمہر بھی ادا کردیا جائے ، اس نکاح کی اباحت شریعت اسلامیہ میں صرف فتح مکہ کے زمانہ کے علاوہ نہیں ملتی ، جہاں پر بہت سارے نئے نئے مسلمان بھی حاضر ہوئے تھے اوران کے ارتداد کا خوف تھا ، کیونکہ وہ جاہلیت میں زنا کے عادی تھے توان کے لیے صرف یہ نکاح تین دن تک کے لیے مباح کیا گیا اوراس کے بعد قیامت تک کے لیے حرام قرار دیا گیا ، جیسا کہ صحیح مسلم کی حدیث نمبر ( 1406 ) میں مذکور ہے ۔ .

Edited by asher

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Narrated by Muslim, 1406.

Allaah has made marriage one of His signs which calls us to think and ponder. He has created love and compassion between the spouses, and has made the wife a source of tranquility for the husband. He encouraged us to have children and decreed that a woman should wait out the ‘iddah period and may inherit. None of that exists in this haraam form of marriage.

A woman who is married in a mut’ah marriage, according to the Raafidis – i.e. the Shi’ah, who are the ones who say that this is permissible – is neither a wife nor a concubine. But Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts)

Except from their wives or (the slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame;

But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors”

[al-Mu’minoon 23:5-7]

The Raafidis quote invalid evidence to support their argument that mut’ah is permissible. For example:

(a) They quote the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“…so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed…”

[al-Nisa’ 4:24]

They say: this verse indicates that mut’ah is permissible, and the word ‘their mahr (ujoorahunna – lit. their dues or their wages)’ is evidence that what is meant by the phrase ‘you have enjoyed sexual relations’ is mut’ah.

The refutation of this is the fact that prior to this Allaah mentions the women whom a man is forbidden to marry, then he mentions what is permissible for him, and He commands the man to give to the woman he marries her mahr.

The joy of marriage is expressed here by the word enjoyment (‘of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations’). A similar instance occurs in the Sunnah, in the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah according to which the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Woman is like a bent rib, if you try to straighten her you will break her. If you want to enjoy her, then enjoy her while she still has some crookedness in her.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4889; Muslim, 1468.

The mahr is referred to here as ajr (lit. dues or wages), but this does not refer to the money which is paid to the woman with whom he engages in mut’ah in the contract of mut’ah. The mahr is referred to as ajr elsewhere in the Book of Allaah, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage)…”

[al-Ahzaab 33:50]

Thus it becomes clear that there is no evidence in this verse to suggest that mut’ah is permissible.

Even if we were to say for argument’s sake that this verse indicates that mut’ah is permitted, we would still say that it is abrogated by the reports in the saheeh Sunnah which prove that mut’ah is forbidden until the Day of Resurrection.

(B ) The reports that some of the Sahaabah regarded it as being permissible, especially Ibn ‘Abbaas.

The refutation here is the fact that the Raafidis are following their own whims and desires, because they regard the companions of the Prophet (may Allaah be pleased with them) as kaafirs, then you see them quoting their actions as permissible in this instance and in others.

With regard to those who said that it is permissible, they are among those who did not hear that it had been forbidden. The Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) – including ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Zubayr – refuted Ibn ‘Abbaas’s view that mut’ah was permitted.

It was narrated from ‘Ali that he heard Ibn ‘Abbaas permitting mut’ah marriage, and he said, “Wait a minute, O Ibn ‘Abbaas, for the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade it on the day of Khaybar and (he also forbade) the meat of tame donkeys.”

Narrated by Muslim, 1407.

Note :

Agr aap ko is zabaan mein samajh na aaye tu pooch lena.Mein tarjuma karney ki kooshish karon g.

Mein ney kooshish tu ki liken problem aarahi thi post kartey huey aur woh shayed kisi ko samajh na aata kiyun key urdu zabaan key har lafz key tukrey ho rahey they jab mein post kart :lol:

(wasalam)

Edited by asher

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Muttah qayamat taq jaiz hai. Orr aap ko kiss nae majboor kia hai kae zaroor muttah karo. Aap nahin karna chahtae ya chahteen toe na karain. iss main kya hai? Jaisae jaisae dunya aagae ja rahee hai iss kisam kae nikkah kee ehmiyat barhatee ja rahee hai. Khaas torr per jab kae dunya main itnee fahashi orr bae pardagee aam hoe gayee hai jahan per banda e momin ka imaan khatrae main hai toe Muttah aik rehmat bann kar uss kae liyae aya hai kae agar banda e momin Nikkah e Ghair Daimii nahin kar sakta toe Nikkah e Muwaqat ya Muttah kar lae taqae Gunnah sae bach sakae.

Ajeeb baat yae hai kae main aik parhee likhee Lawyer community sae taluq rakhta hoon orr main bohat sae aisae logoon koe janta hoon jo herr kissam kee ghair ikhlaqee sargarmioon main mulawiss hain. Woe sharaab peetae hain orr koee hee hafta aisa guzarta hai jiss main woe Zina na kartae hoon. Qahba khanae inn logoon nae bharae huwain hain magar mujhae hairat hai kae yahee logg sabb sae zayada Muttah kae khilaaf boltae hain. Muttah toe sirf aik contract hai orr contract dono atraaf kee marzee sae hota hai agar koee iss ko acha nahin samajhta toe uss koe kiss nae force kia hai kae woe zaroor muttah karae magar iss koe bura kehna ya Zina sae badtar kahna ya Sharayee ehkaam ka mazaak urrana sareehan Kufr hai. Abb aap shoq sae jitna marzee Kufr karain woe aap janain orr Allah janae.

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:lol:

Asher is forum ka naam hai shiachat... to agar shio ko kissi cheez kay baray mei convince karna hia to shia hadith paish karoo.. or agar shia sunni discussion cahhtay ho to uskay liyay bhee eik section mojood hia waha pay post kar saktay ho.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Meray bhai issi baat ka tu dukh hey :( khe is forum ka naam shia chat hey,kaash aye kaash is forum ka naam muslim chat hota tu aaj jo yahan sab kuch horaha hey us ki shayed naubat hi nahin aati....

Aap ka kehnay ka matlab hey khe shio ko convince karny key liye shia hadith lani parey gi.

Liken janab aisi tu koi hadith hey hi nahin... ^_^ ....

Aap ko kis ney kaha khe mein sunni hoon....hum sey milein hum "musalmaan hein"..

Jo in tafaraqoon key chakroon sey barey paar hein(alhamdulillah),sach ki talaash hey aur us key liye apney Rub sey dua hey....

Sach ka raasta mushkil hey liken mayossi karna bhi tu kufr hey... B)

Hum tu sirf un logon ko jinhon ney sawaal kiya ,un ka jwab dey r hoon...kiyun key islam ney kabhi tafarqey nahin banaye aur na kaha..Aaj ki duniya mein agr sach ko dhoondna hey tu pehlay dua aur phir saarey tafaraqoon sey bahir aana parey ga aur sach ko dhoondna hoga duaon ko saath jari rakhtey huey..

Duaon ka is sey kiya taluq ? Taluq hey kiyun key kabhi key baar insaan sach ki talaash mein tu nikal parta hey liken gumrah hojaata hey ,andheron mein doob jata hey aur ussi ko sach maan leta hey.In andherron sey bachney ka sirf or sirf rasta Allah key paas hey kiyun khe woh sab Jananey wala hey.Us ki madad key beghair kuch bhi mumkin nahin...

Waisey aap ney mushwara diya,us key liye jazakallah kheir... :)

Allah hum sab ko seeeeeedhay rastey par chalaye...

Ek tu seedhay rastey key neechay aag hi aag hey... :lol:

(wasalam)

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Muttah qayamat taq jaiz hai. Orr aap ko kiss nae majboor kia hai kae zaroor muttah karo. Aap nahin karna chahtae ya chahteen toe na karain. iss main kya hai? Jaisae jaisae dunya aagae ja rahee hai iss kisam kae nikkah kee ehmiyat barhatee ja rahee hai. Khaas torr per jab kae dunya main itnee fahashi orr bae pardagee aam hoe gayee hai jahan per banda e momin ka imaan khatrae main hai toe Muttah aik rehmat bann kar uss kae liyae aya hai kae agar banda e momin Nikkah e Ghair Daimii nahin kar sakta toe Nikkah e Muwaqat ya Muttah kar lae taqae Gunnah sae bach sakae.

Ajeeb baat yae hai kae main aik parhee likhee Lawyer community sae taluq rakhta hoon orr main bohat sae aisae logoon koe janta hoon jo herr kissam kee ghair ikhlaqee sargarmioon main mulawiss hain. Woe sharaab peetae hain orr koee hee hafta aisa guzarta hai jiss main woe Zina na kartae hoon. Qahba khanae inn logoon nae bharae huwain hain magar mujhae hairat hai kae yahee logg sabb sae zayada Muttah kae khilaaf boltae hain. Muttah toe sirf aik contract hai orr contract dono atraaf kee marzee sae hota hai agar koee iss ko acha nahin samajhta toe uss koe kiss nae force kia hai kae woe zaroor muttah karae magar iss koe bura kehna ya Zina sae badtar kahna ya Sharayee ehkaam ka mazaak urrana sareehan Kufr hai. Abb aap shoq sae jitna marzee Kufr karain woe aap janain orr Allah janae.

(salam)

mein ney uppar bhut bari post post ki hey... :angel: Bhut bari post,elephant jitni...... :lol:

Shayed aap ney parhi nahin...

Meri kooshish rehti hey khe mein quran sey jitni ayaat nikal kar la sakoon ya mujhey milein tu mein unhein sey logon tak is ka paigaam phunchaon.Kiyun hadith ley kar jao tu hameshan koi na koi baat khari hojaati hey(ziyada tar khe woh kitni sahih hey)liken kam sey kam quran ki ayatein dekh kar log gour-o-fikr tu karein gey...tab bhi na karein..........tu....tu......?

Dua hey khe karein :lol:

(Aur meri post mein alhamdulillah wahi hey.)

Agr aap gooro-fikr karein ya un ayaton ko parhein tu is ka jawab mil jaye ga khe mutah halaal nhin ,haraam hey..

InshaAllah,agr zindagi rahi aur agr Allah ney mujhey sahi ilm sey nawaza(woh ilm jo sirf nafa dey)tu mein zaroor is key nuqsaanat sey bhi agah karon g.[Zaroor nawazey ga....kiyun key woh nawazta hey jab banda us sey mangta hey bus kabhi kabhi thori deir kar deta hey ^_^ ]

Sirf zaroorat hy fikr ki jo khe log nahin kar rahey :cry:

Allah hum sab ko sahi raah dikhaye...

(wasalam)

Edited by asher

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First of all, I apologize for posting in English on an Urdu forum, but my Urdu typing is really bad :P

If anyone wants to reply to my post they can do so in Urdu if they wish since I'll understand it, but don't expect my reply to be in Urdu too ;)

syed _demanding me ap ko kal tuk wo sare references dikha doon gi jis me ye kaha gaya ha k mutta kerne wala imam or nabi k derja per ajata ha ,isi ko perh ker to khud per afsoos hoa to apne shia behn bhaion me akar apne dil ka gubar nikal diya ,meri to sirf itni khawahish ha k kash ye mutta jesi manhoos cheez hamare mazhab e shia se nikal di jai kiun k muje gair muslimo or gair shion ko is hawale se face krte hoe barii sharam ati ha

You do know that you're calling something the Prophet(pbuh) allowed and our Imams allowed "manhoos". I agree with you that Muta is not so appropriate for our time (but for different reasons than you, I think that the original reasons for Mutah no longer apply to us, and nowadays it's just getting abused by lustful guys taking advantage of women), but no Shia, even anti-muta ones, should call it "manhoos".

Muttah qayamat taq jaiz hai. Orr aap ko kiss nae majboor kia hai kae zaroor muttah karo. Aap nahin karna chahtae ya chahteen toe na karain. iss main kya hai? Jaisae jaisae dunya aagae ja rahee hai iss kisam kae nikkah kee ehmiyat barhatee ja rahee hai. Khaas torr per jab kae dunya main itnee fahashi orr bae pardagee aam hoe gayee hai jahan per banda e momin ka imaan khatrae main hai toe Muttah aik rehmat bann kar uss kae liyae aya hai kae agar banda e momin Nikkah e Ghair Daimii nahin kar sakta toe Nikkah e Muwaqat ya Muttah kar lae taqae Gunnah sae bach sakae.

Ajeeb baat yae hai kae main aik parhee likhee Lawyer community sae taluq rakhta hoon orr main bohat sae aisae logoon koe janta hoon jo herr kissam kee ghair ikhlaqee sargarmioon main mulawiss hain. Woe sharaab peetae hain orr koee hee hafta aisa guzarta hai jiss main woe Zina na kartae hoon. Qahba khanae inn logoon nae bharae huwain hain magar mujhae hairat hai kae yahee logg sabb sae zayada Muttah kae khilaaf boltae hain. Muttah toe sirf aik contract hai orr contract dono atraaf kee marzee sae hota hai agar koee iss ko acha nahin samajhta toe uss koe kiss nae force kia hai kae woe zaroor muttah karae magar iss koe bura kehna ya Zina sae badtar kahna ya Sharayee ehkaam ka mazaak urrana sareehan Kufr hai. Abb aap shoq sae jitna marzee Kufr karain woe aap janain orr Allah janae.

And really it all comes down to that, it's jaiz and will be until a marja disallows it or something. As for the hypocrite lawyers you know, it's best to ignore them because they're hypocrites for a reason. Also, introduce them to the concept of Nikah Misyar, which is allowed in Sunni Islam, they may be stunned to find out how similar it is to Nikah Muta.

(salam)

mein ney uppar bhut bari post post ki hey... :angel: Bhut bari post,elephant jitni...... :lol:

Shayed aap ney parhi nahin...

Meri kooshish rehti hey khe mein quran sey jitni ayaat nikal kar la sakoon ya mujhey milein tu mein unhein sey logon tak is ka paigaam phunchaon.Kiyun hadith ley kar jao tu hameshan koi na koi baat khari hojaati hey(ziyada tar khe woh kitni sahih hey)liken kam sey kam quran ki ayatein dekh kar log gour-o-fikr tu karein gey...tab bhi na karein..........tu....tu......?

Dua hey khe karein :lol:

(Aur meri post mein alhamdulillah wahi hey.)

Agr aap gooro-fikr karein ya un ayaton ko parhein tu is ka jawab mil jaye ga khe mutah halaal nhin ,haraam hey..

InshaAllah,agr zindagi rahi aur agr Allah ney mujhey sahi ilm sey nawaza(woh ilm jo sirf nafa dey)tu mein zaroor is key nuqsaanat sey bhi agah karon g.[Zaroor nawazey ga....kiyun key woh nawazta hey jab banda us sey mangta hey bus kabhi kabhi thori deir kar deta hey ^_^ ]

Sirf zaroorat hy fikr ki jo khe log nahin kar rahey :cry:

Allah hum sab ko sahi raah dikhaye...

(wasalam)

You did post a huge post, but it was from a wahabi reference. I mean they're throwing out the term "rafidi", when referring to Shias, like it's no one's business, you can't honestly expect Shias to take that seriously.

Again, apologize for no Urdu.

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You did post a huge post, but it was from a wahabi reference. I mean they're throwing out the term "rafidi", when referring to Shias, like it's no one's business, you can't honestly expect Shias to take that seriously.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ah!You read the post but unfortunately you didn't focused on the content.Did u read quranic ayats in between?From where were they?Shia source,sunni source,wahaabi source,salafi source,etc?Which source were these quranic ayats from....

Alas!you are much worried about word "Rafidi or Shia" but not worried about what quran says?Not bothered to be called "Muslim"but proud to be part of particular sect

:( ...

Alright fine,if you say it is from wahabi source,then did u atleast focus on the way they are interpreting?....No,you will not ! because it is from wahabi source as you think in that way.....

When will people start searching true islam and believe in Quranic ayats.....

If desires are overcoming ,if one don't want to leave what their ancestors done(wrong)...then call it your weakness and not islam...

Islam is free from all sects ,free from all geographic boundaries....

Unless and until one doesn't search for true islam guidance isn't possible.

Ask for guidance,Allah guides but if person rejects is it HIS fault? :cry:

Allah hum sab ko seedhay rastey par chalaye aur sahih ilm sey nawazey...ameen

(wasalam)

Edited by asher

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asher bhai pehli bat to ye ha to aap ne hadit pesh keen wo aap ne apni kitaboon se pesh ki jabke manazre ka asool hota ha ke daleel mukhalifeeen ki kitaboon se di jati ha. agar main aap ko asool e kafi se koi daleel doon to aap mano ge?

dosre ye ke muttah ke halal hone ka hukam QURAN main ha or ham MUHHAMMAD SAWW ko baqi sab firqoon se ziyada manate hain par MUHAMMAD SAWW ko bhe quran ki kisi ayat ko mansookh karne ka ikhtiyaar nai ha.

QURAAN MAIN HA

"han jin logoon se tumne muttah kiya ho to unhe jo mehar mukarar kiya ha dedo or mehar mukarar hone ke bad aapas main razi ho jao to is main tum par koi gunah nai beshak khuda har cheez se wakif ha or maslehatoon ko peh chanane wala ha"

or ab zara un ahle sunnat ke mofassareen ki gawahi bhe sun lijeye jin logoon ne ise AYYAT E MUTTAH mana ha

2cs6w6c.jpg

or wase bhe aap ki bukhari or muslim main muttah ke mana hone par sakht ikhtilaaf ha kaheen likha ha ke tabook main mana kiya tha kaheen khebar main kaheen fatah makka or kaheen par haja tulwidah ka zikar ha or isi bukhari or muslim main hazrat umer se bhe mansoob ha jiss main unho ne muttah se mana kiya ha or yehi sahi rawayat ha jiss ke pages main agge attach kar raha hoon muslin ke hawale se.

to jab QURAAN ki kisi ayyat ko RASOOL SAWW mansookh nai kar sakte to hazrat umer to bohat door ki bt hain.

2i07m75.jpg

1572hxe.jpg

"muttah ki ayyat quraan main nazil hoi thi or hazrat MUHHAMMAD SAWW ke dor main muttah howa or hazrat umer ne use appni raye se khatam kar diya"

bukhari jild 5 page 158

agar muttah RASOOL SAWW ne mana kiya tha to hazrat umer koi kiya zaroorat thi is ka ilzaam khud par lene ki?

hazrat umer ka beyaan:

" do mutah RASOOL SAWW ke doe main jaiz the main (umer ) tumhe is se mana karta hoon or is ke karne wale ko saza doon ga un main se ik muttah haj ha or dosra aurtoon se mutah"

tafsser kabeer G 3 P 197

is ke ilawa 11 or hawale likh sakta hoon

MUTTAH KE BARE MAIN HAZRAT ALI AS KI RAYE:

"muttah to banddon par Allah ki rehmat ha agar umer isse apne dor main mana na karta to koi badbakht he zana karta"

tafseer durmanshoor G 2 P 140

tafseer sabli

tafseer tabri

MUTTAH KE BARE MAIN HAZRAT IBNE ABBAS AS KI RAYE:

agar umer muttah se na rokte to koi bhe zana ki taraf na jata siwaye shaki ke

tafseer durmanshoor G 2 P 141

tafseer al mazhari G 2 P 74

umeed karta hoon aap is bt ko samajhne ki koshish kareen ge.

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"han jin logoon se tumne muttah kiya ho to unhe jo mehar mukarar kiya ha dedo or mehar mukarar hone ke bad aapas main razi ho jao to is main tum par koi gunah nai beshak khuda har cheez se wakif ha or maslehatoon ko peh chanane wala ha"

(bismillah)

(salam)

Mujhey jis cheiz par poora ikhityar hey (sahi samajh hey,alhamdulillah)mein aap ki is bari si post mein us par pehlay baat karon g.

Aap ney ayat ko samjhney mein ghalti ki hey.Quran ko parhna aur samjhna do alag baatein hein.

Chalein jaisa aap ney kaha Hum na bukhari ,muslim aur na hi koi aur ulama ki baat darmiyan mein latey hein.Aap agr sirf maazi key baarey mein parhein aur jo waqiyat huey unko mad-e-nazar rakhtey huey ayat par gaur karein tu aap ko pata chaley ga khe aap ney ayat ko samjhney mein ghalti kar di hey.

Is ayat mein :

han jin logoon se tumne muttah kiya ho to unhe jo mehar mukarar kiya ha dedo or mehar mukarar hone ke bad aapas main razi ho jao to is main tum par koi gunah nai beshak khuda har cheez se wakif ha or maslehatoon ko peh chanane wala ha"

English Translation of above ayat:

[The mahr is referred to here as ajr (lit. dues or wages), but this does not refer to the money which is paid to the woman with whom he engages in mut’ah in the contract of mut’ah. The mahr is referred to as ajr elsewhere in the Book of Allaah, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage)…”

[al-Ahzaab 33:50] ]

Mahr woh raqam hey jo shaadi key muqaddas rishtey mein bandney sey pehlay suhar(husband) apni biwi ko deta hey.

Aur agr aap ney uppar saari posts pari hein tu meinney poori kooshish ki hey khe mein sirf quran key zariye yeh paigaam dey sakoon key mutta haraam hey.

Quran ki ek ayat ko ghalat samjhney sey us key maani badal jaatey hein.

Muttah ek aisa fitna aur biddat hey jo aaj muashrey mein pahlta ja rahi hey aur agr musalmaanon ney jald koi naseehat na pakri tu woh waqt daur nahin jab woh is andheeray mein gum hokar rah jayein gey.

Aur yaqeenan phir aisay muashrey mein jahan Quran aur sunnat choor di jaye woh Zawaal key qareeb hota hey.

Agr mutah aaj jaisa key kuch ulema ney kaha halaal hey tu phir mutah aur azdawaji zindagi zindagi sey pehlay jo taluq hotey hein jo key magrabi muashrey mein aam hein (pre-marital:Concept of boy friend and girl friend)mein koi faraq nahin.Woh muashra tu doob raha hey aur agr is muashraye mein yeh mutah qayim raha tu yeh bhi zawaal pazeer hojaye ga.

Allah sab ko seedhay rastey par chalaye...Ameen.

Yeh ek aisi misaal hey jo key muttah sey utth rahi hey.Muttah sirf kharabiyan paida karey ga aur kuch nahin,muashrey mein aisay masayil kharey kar day ga jis sey muashra doob jaye ga.

Yeh jo uppar ka link hey is mein mein kisi ka mazaqh nahin urrana chaht ,liken yeh tu sirf ek misaal hey,aisi kayi aur misaalein milein gi.Muttah sey shaadi ka muqaddas rishta bhi paak nahin rehta,us mein masayil aajatey hein.

Nafs par qaboo pana asaan nahin aur nafsi khawahishaat poori karney key liye Allah ney ek rishta banaya hey shaadi ka.

Mutah Allah ki taraf sey nahin balkey aaj insaan ney khud apni khawshiat poori karney key liye issey istimaal kiya hey.

Agr Huzoor (pbuh) nay issey halaal hi rakhna tha tu phir shaadi jaisa rishta kiyun?

Agr Mutah halaah hey tu phir hazrat Ali (ra) ney yeh kiyun farmaya :

To fight against one's desires is the greatest of all fights.

Mutah haraam hey aur sirf haraam.Agr aaj na samjha tu kal khud hi Allah key samney jawab da hona hey. :cry:

(wasalam)

Edited by asher

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    • Why not give away Afghanistan to Pakistan and just be done with it? Don't the majority of Afghans live in Pakistans tribal areas and cities anyways? There is more Afghans in Pakistan than there is in Afghanistan itself so yeah again whats the difference? Obviously India would not like this and would be upset but do they have a border with Afghanistan? Whats their agenda in this whole conflict?  Afghanistan is much more closer to Pakistan and Iran than India from my knowledge.   
    • Shukriya bro See maybe I have a chance to be a geek in a Washington think tank lol Btw Herat can go to Iran too it's traditionally Persian  This way hazara will be a neutral buffer state  But India might not like this as it makes Pakistan bigger  Punjabi and muhajir might not like a pashtun dominated Pakistan   
    • 3.87. Urwa b. Yahya al-Nakhkhas al-Dihqan https://sites.google.com/site/mujamalahadith/vol1/book-of-narrators/urwa-b-yahya-al-nakhkhas-al-dihqan   [-/1] رجال الكشي: حكى بعض الثقات بنيسابور أنه خرج لإسحاق بن اسماعيل من أبي محمد عليه السّلام توقيع: يا اسحاق بن اسماعيل سترنا اللّه و اياك بستره ... فإذا وردت بغداد فاقرأه على الدهقان وكيلنا و ثقتنا و الذي يقبض من موالينا ... [1/-] Rijal al-Kashshi: One of the trustworthy narrators in Naysabur reported that a Tawqi [signed rescript] came out addressed to Ishaq b. Ismail from Abi Muhammad عليه السلام saying: O Ishaq b. Ismail, may Allah protect both you and us with His protection … so when you reach Baghdad then read it [this Tawqi] to al-Dihqan, our Wakil [agent], our Thiqa [trustworthy one], and the one who collects from our followers [the dues] … NOTES: Urwa b. Yahya al-Nakhkhas (the slave merchant) was at one time a trusted Wakil of al-Askari in Baghdad as can be confirmed from the above. But he subsequently sold his religion for the petty price of the world and betrayed the Imam. al-Tusi says in his entry on him: عروة النخاس الدهقان، ملعون غال Urwa al-Nakhkhas al-Dihqan - an accursed Ghali al-Kashshi narrates the following reports which confirm his fall from favour: - حدثني محمد بن قولويه الجمال، عن محمد بن موسى الهمداني: أن عروة بن يحيى البغدادي المعروف بالدهقان لعنه الله و كان يكذب على أبي الحسن علي بن محمد بن الرضا عليهم السلام و على أبي محمد الحسن بن علي عليهما السلام بعده، و كان يقطع أمواله لنفسه دونه و يكذب عليه، حتى لعنه أبو محمد عليه السلام و أمر شيعته بلعنة، و الدعاء عليه لقطع الأموال، لعنه الله Muhammad b. Qulawayh the cameleer - Muhammad b. Musa al-Hamdani: Urwa b. Yahya al-Baghdadi, famously known as al-Dihqan - may Allah curse him, used to lie about Abi al-Hasan Ali b. Muhammad b. al-Ridha عليهم السلام and about Abi Muhammad al-Hasan b. Ali عليهما السلام after him. He used to keep a portion of his (the Imam’s) wealth (collected dues) for himself and lie about that. This led Abu Muhammad عليه السلام to curse him and to order his Shia to curse him and supplicate against him for withholding (and keeping to himself) the collected amount - may Allah curse him. قال علي بن سلمان بن رشيد العطار البغدادي كان يلعنه أبو محمد عليه السلام و ذلك أنه كانت لأبي محمد عليه السلام خزانة، و كان يليها أبو علي بن راشد رضي الله عنه، فسلمت إلى عروة، فأخذ منها لنفسه ثم أحرق باقي ما فيها، يغايظ بذلك أبا محمد عليه السلام فلعنه و بري‏ء منه و دعا عليه، فما أمهل يومه ذلك و ليلته حتى قبضه الله إلى النار، فقال عليه السلام: جلست لربي ليلتي هذه كذا و كذا جلسة فما انفجر عمود الصبح و لا انطفى ذلك النار حتى قتل الله عدوه لعنه الله Ali b. Sulayman b. Rashid al-Baghdadi the perfumer said: Abu Muhammad عليه السلام used to curse him. That was because Abi Muhammad عليه السلام had a saved-up amount (of collections) which used to be overseen by Abu Ali b. Rashid - may Allah be pleased with him. This was handed to Urwa (fell in his hands for safe-keeping), so he took from it for himself and then destroyed (burnt) the rest of it, seeking to anger Aba Muhammad عليه السلام thereby. Because of this he [the Imam] cursed him, disassociated from him, and supplicated against him. He [Urwa] was not given respite for even a single day or night before Allah seized him unto the fire. He عليه السلام said: I sat in vigil to my Lord this night of mine - such and such a seating (of worship i.e. describing it), so the light of day did not break nor did that fire (of lamp burnt at night) go out (extinguish) except that Allah had already killed his enemy - may Allah curse him. The following is also found in a letter sent by al-Askari about Ahmad b. Hilal: و قد علمتم ما كان من أمر الدهقان عليه لعنة الله و خدمته و طول صحبته، فأبدله الله بالإيمان كفرا حين فعل ما فعل، فعاجله الله بالنقمة ولم يمهله، و الحمد لله لا شريك له، و صلى الله على محمد و آله و سلم … and you have known what the status of al-Dihqan was - may Allah curse him, his service, and the long period of his companionship, but then Allah transformed his belief into disbelief, when he committed what he committed, so Allah hastened in retribution to him and did not grant him any respite. All praise is due to Allah who has no partner, and may Allah send blessings on Muhammad and his family. What this shows is that being a Wakil of the Imam does not mean that one is Thiqa forever and cannot change into a worse state. We ask Allah to secure us from having high stations but ending in disgrace.
    • They are stems off the same roots. Im quite sure both fund eachother too. May the reappesrance of our saviour be hastened to bring peace in our holy lands and the rest of the world
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