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Abdullah_A

Are Ismaili muslims?

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Sure the jamatkhana's maybe built facing the Kaba, but you don't face it when offering prayers. That's why in your jamatkhana's there are people facing in every direction when your Ismaili du'a is being said. Atleast that's how it is in North America.

The roomer that all ismailis do not face kaba came from that one jamat khan that was bulid by mistake in North America. Now it’s been fixed. All Ismailis pray facing kaba.

Your imam has forbidden the consumption of alcohol, thank God. But why hasn't he forbidden its selling, which he himself does through his hotels?

There are many Christian sects which believe drinking wine is holly, also vast majority of Christians believe its ok to drink alcohol once in a while. Ismailis don't believe in enforcing there believe on others, we don't drink it because we don't believe in it. But we are not going to shut the doors of our hotels if a Christian who believe its their right to drink alcohol. We will not force them not to drinking it. We want to see the other face of islam which is not horrifying as wahabism. Once they will come in and will see other good things inshallah one day, they will stop drinking wine. We don’t want Christian airlines to stop Muslims from flying to holy places around the world; because their religion does not permit then to help someone go anywhere other than Christian holy places.

Also drinking alcohol does not make a muslim kafir let go selling it. Alcohol is bad for your own body and if taken in excess it can also harm you entire family. If I am in a hotel business and if it is custom and legal to sell alcohol I may end up selling it. Because otherwise I will be out of business.

A lot of our Hajj money goes to funding wahabies, but that will not make us quit going to Hajj. I think funding wahabies is more harmful then allowing alcohol.

The problem is your imam does not make fasting obligatory like he makes the 'du'a' you recite everyday obligatory.That is unacceptable. Many many Ismailis don't fast because of that fact. You don't pray namaz. You pray your du'a which one of your pirs composed and your imam approved.

He is trying to make fasting compulsory to the part of the ismaili comunity that does not following things strictly. But again Khoja ismaili are just a minority and majority still fast regularly. Same thing with Namaz. He is having hard time in making it implemented everywhere. So now he is syntactically do this. I will explain this in my next post.

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This is problematic. Clarify for me what you're doing here.

By saying Ya Ali Madad is Ali's (ra) help being invoked as in he's (ra) the granter or is his help being invoked as a way for your du'a tor each Allah (swt)? If it's the first, then that's shirk. If it's the second, then it is accepted.

I can't tell you about all the ismaili, as believes may be different from person to person. Here are some of the believes

1. Some ismailis when they say Ya Ali Madad, they are following the sunnat of Rasul, they are asking help from Allah directly, but they are referring to a particular type of help that Allah offered to Muhammad when Islam was in deep trouble and Muhammad was having hard time in conquering khybar, and after getting the help from Allah Muhammad conquered it in just 3 days, they are also referring to the help that Allah gave Muhammad when Allah asked Ali to sleep on the bed of Muhammad when Muhammad migrated. When they are saying Ya Ali Madad, they are actually asking Allah directly, the kind of blessing that Allah offered Muhammad.

2. Some ismailis when they say Ya Ali Madad, they are asking Ali's intervention in requesting help from Allah.

3. Some ismailis when they say Ya Ali Madad, with Ali they mean one of the 99 names of Allah which is also Ali.

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When many Muslims refused to obey the command of Allah in gadir -e-khum. The command that made Islam perfect. They are not kafirs, then how come ismailis are kafirs?

This is crazy. Let Allah be the judge of the faith. Lets not play Allah.

We should break the walls and build bridges. Lets not look at the small differences we have. Lets concentrate on big similarities.

Allah wanted diverse communities, that's why he has divided us into communities.

This is what Quran says -

O mankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that you might get to know one another. Surely the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous. Allah is All-Knowledgeable, All-Aware.[

Lets stop blaming one another. Shia, Sunni, Sufi, we are all muslims. We all believe in one Allah, we all believe that Muhammad was our prophet, we all believe in not harming others, we all believe in respecting our parents, we all believe in honest and truthfulness and one of the most important which we keep forgetting - we all believe in charity and helping those who are in need.

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The roomer that all ismailis do not face kaba came from that one jamat khan that was bulid by mistake in North America. Now it’s been fixed. All Ismailis pray facing kaba.

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No they don’t. The Ismailis when praying inside the jamatkhana, although it may be facing the Kaba, are themselves not facing the Kaba. Some are facing, others are not. They pray almost in every direction, i.e. people leaning up against the walls, etc, not to mention the leaders, i.e. mukhi, etc, sitting at the front, the person reciting the dua, and etc, are all not facing the Kaba. They are actually facing the opposite direction. This is how it is in every jamatkhana in North America and other continents, especially as regards the leaders sitting at the front. You know this better than me.

There are many Christian sects which believe drinking wine is holly, also vast majority of Christians believe its ok to drink alcohol once in a while. Ismailis don't believe in enforcing there believe on others, we don't drink it because we don't believe in it. But we are not going to shut the doors of our hotels if a Christian who believe its their right to drink alcohol. We will not force them not to drinking it. We want to see the other face of islam which is not horrifying as wahabism. Once they will come in and will see other good things inshallah one day, they will stop drinking wine. We don’t want Christian airlines to stop Muslims from flying to holy places around the world; because their religion does not permit then to help someone go anywhere other than Christian holy places.

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To this pathetic excuse I will simply reply with the words of one the posters in this forum:

“[…] please, spare us the "it's because it's ok in other people's cultures". When has other people's cultures somehow overruled the law of God and justified profiting from something which is a great sin in our religion. Would it be ok if he ran a prostitution ring in Amsterdam, since that's legal there too?”

He is trying to make fasting compulsory to the part of the ismaili comunity that does not following things strictly. But again Khoja ismaili are just a minority and majority still fast regularly. Same thing with Namaz. He is having hard time in making it implemented everywhere. So now he is syntactically do this. I will explain this in my next post.

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Not fasting is not limited to the Khoja community. You simply haven’t been around. Ismailis everywhere generally don’t think much of fasting, a problem which goes back to your imam. In fact, this is so true to the point that certain Ismailis would not fast on purpose to disassociate themselves from other Muslims. They would not follow the prescriptions of the Sharia’ as sort of a way to identify themselves amongst themselves.

I will deal with this so called ‘new namaz’ that your imam is thinking about introducing into your practices later. There’s a deeper problem involved in this issue. But for now, we maintain that the dua’ you recite is completely unwarranted.

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Lets stop blaming one another. Shia, Sunni, Sufi, we are all muslims. We all believe in one Allah, we all believe that Muhammad was our prophet, we all believe in not harming others, we all believe in respecting our parents, we all believe in honest and truthfulness and one of the most important which we keep forgetting - we all believe in charity and helping those who are in need.

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First of all, there’s no such thing as Shia, Sunni, and Sufi, but only Shia and Sunni. Sufism is either a part of Sunni Islam or Shia Islam as the Sufi orders are either Sunni or Twelver Shi’i. Don’t treat Sufism independently of Sunni Islam. It’s like saying that ‘Irfan is independent of the (Twelver) Shia tradition. That’s not true at all. Sufism and ‘Irfan are more like the inner dimensions of those traditions, and they intermingle a lot, especially in later Islamic history. People often forget this. Secondly, what we are discussing here are doctrinal issues that deal with the question of orthodoxy and heterodoxy, which is an extremely important question. So we cannot simply say we are all Muslims and leave it at that. Although that is true, there’s still more to be said which might lead us into distinguishing, to the best of our ability, between not only orthodoxy and heterodoxy but also downright unbelief and apostasy. Let me give you an example. There are fundamental beliefs which we all hold that make us Muslims, like for example La Iaha Ila Allah, Muhammadun rasul Allah. But what does this mean and what are its implications? One of the implications, according to both Sunnis and Twelver Shi’i’s, of the second shahada is that Muhammad – alayhi salatu wasalam, is the last prophet of God, and that what he brought from God as regards the Sharia’ cannot be changed or abrogated by anyone. The reason for this is because only a messenger can change the Law of God by bringing a new one from Him, but since the Prophet (saw) is the last rasul of God, no one can change the Sharia’ he brought because there will not be any new messenger after him. This is one the fundamental tenets of Islam that all Muslims, Sunni and Shia, accept. This is a belief that anyone who takes a look at the Qur’an and the prophetic traditions will inevitably uphold. Now about Ismalis, do they believe in it as well? In short, no they don’t, even though they might say they do. This is clear from the various practices and rituals i.e. the dua, and many others, that Ismailis perform which have no basis in either the Qur’an or the Sunna of the Prophet (saw). These rituals were introduced either by their imam or by some high ranking member of their community and the imam approved it. Moreover, and this is the main issue, the fundamental basis for all this is their belief that their imam has the authority to change the laws of the Sharia’. By doing that, their imam takes on the function of the Prophet and in a sense brings a new Law or can bring a new one. Why else are they so different from the rest of Muslims in terms of practices? More importantly, what consequence has this now for the belief that Muhammad (saw) is the last rasul of God? Now is this anything but against the belief of all Muslims, be they Sunni or Shia?

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I don't know if this has been asked before but do ismali's hold majalis in commemoration of the tragedy of Karbala and other events. do they do matam and mourn the tragedies of the Ahulbayt a.s? and what their ruling on hijab? it might be an misconception but i havent seen any ismali girls wearing the hijab or properly covering themselves?

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When many Muslims refused to obey the command of Allah in gadir -e-khum. The command that made Islam perfect. They are not kafirs, then how come ismailis are kafirs?

This is crazy. Let Allah be the judge of the faith. Lets not play Allah.

We should break the walls and build bridges. Lets not look at the small differences we have. Lets concentrate on big similarities.

Allah wanted diverse communities, that's why he has divided us into communities.

This is what Quran says -

Lets stop blaming one another. Shia, Sunni, Sufi, we are all muslims. We all believe in one Allah, we all believe that Muhammad was our prophet, we all believe in not harming others, we all believe in respecting our parents, we all believe in honest and truthfulness and one of the most important which we keep forgetting - we all believe in charity and helping those who are in need.

Demons and Jinn also believe in Allah. And Iblis (shaytaan) also knows Allah is his creator. Saying you believe in Allah, and believe in the Prophet (pbuh) and lots of other 'nice' things does not suffice to save onself from Hell

The Aga Khan of the Ismailis presents Farmans and they are accepted as doctrine

Farman of Aga Khan III wherein he says;

"If I say it is night, (you are to believe) it is night. If I say it is day (you are to believe) it is day"

(o really)

Allah (swt) says:

"Give the warning to those in whose (hearts) is the fear that they will be brought (to Judgement) before their Lord, for whom there is no protecting friend nor intercessor beside Him (Allah), that they may ward off (evil)" "... and who can forgive sins except Allah?" Holy Quran 6/51 and 3/135

The Ismaili say

Mowla'na Ima'm Hasan Ala'Zikrihis Salaam (23rd Ismaili Imam) declared the Youm-el-Qiya'ma, the Day of Resurrection, which was held on the nineteenth of Ramaza'n, 559 a.h. (10th of August, 1164). Thousands upon thousands of Ismai'ilis came from all corners of the world to attend this important day of resurrection of the holy faith. The Holy Ima'm declared...

“Today I have explained to you the Law [shari'at] and its meaning. I make you free from the rigidity of the Law and resurrect you from the bondage of the letter to the freedom of the spirit of the Law. Obey me and follow my farma'n.... Break your fast and rejoice. This is the day of utmost happiness and gratitude.”

Allah (swt) says

"O you who believe! Fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious).

(Fasting) for a fixed number of days, but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the same number (should be made up) from other days. And as for those who can fast with difficulty, (i.e. an old man, etc.), they have (a choice either to fast or) to feed a poor person (for every day). But whoever does good of his own accord, it is better for him. And that you fast, it is better for you if only you know." (2:183-84)

"The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Quran, a guidance for mankind and clear proofs for the guidance and the criterion (between right and wrong). So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadan), he must fast that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number (of days which one did not fast must be made up) from other days.

Allah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allah for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him" (2: 185).

20 February 1910, at Rajkot, India, Aga Khan III

"Do nt at all reflect about the future and do not at all think about whether you shall receive the Heaven or the Hell in the afterlife. Because, all things — the Heaven and the Hell — [to give] is in my hand.

Well that quote was so ridiculous. There are there are just too many passages from the Quran regarding the ultimate Judge being Allah (swt) on yaumul qiyaam that there is not enough space to post so to make the quote above look laughable. Malik i yaum i deen is ONLY and will ONLY ever be Allah (swt). Anyone claiming to be otherwise will be destined for Hellfire.

1)To declare yaum ul qiyam iz murtad.

2)To declare fasting is not obligatory is murtad

3)To declare Hajj is not obligatory is murtad

4)To declare Heaven and Hell as "metaphorical" rather than real places is murtad

5)Allah IS AL HAKIM and the judger of Yaum ul Qiyam and the ONLY one that can accept repentance and tauba. Not any Imam. Even the 12 imams. To suggest that anyone else has this power is murtad. May Allah curse those who deny him.

6)The quran explicits states that those who believe in Allah and the last day "PROSTRATE THEMSELVES IN PRAYER"

7)Masjid were and have always been places of worship.

8)Sunnis and Shias pray the same and nothing like you so deal with it. To not keep up prayers as mentioned in the quran "morning prayer, noon, and night prayer" is murtad

9)The IMAMS ALL PRAYED and did Namaz as did Rasulallah. All Hadith of Sunni and Shia states this. The entire Muslim Ummah carrys out salaat and namaz. The enture Muslim Ummah Prostrates themselves in pray during Hajj in front of Allah as they have done for thousands of years. I cannot understand how you can deny this and think it is made up BS that we do all these things and that actually salaat is a fantasy and rasullalah and the imams instead sat in a jamaatkhane. Please

.

SALAAT was taught by Rasullulah (you know the guy who who founded our religion) and is documented and recorder in Hadith and Sunnah and passed down and practiced by hundreds of Millions of Sunni brothers and Shia brothers.

Allah Commands:

"From whencesoever thou startest forth (for prayer) turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: That is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. So from whencesoever thou startest forth, turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; among wheresoever ye are turn your face thither: That there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye may be guided". Holy Quran 2/ 149-150

The Ismaili say:

"Facing Qibla in prayer is not a fundamental principle of Islam, it is a tradition." 'Ismaili Tariqah' page 184

Unfortunately the Ismaili decided to ditch the idea.

Allahs law in the Quran is the only authentic thing we have. Thats why its murtad when you chop and change, and reject obligatory laws like sawm and hajj and say they are not obligatory and spin an interpretation on salaat. As well as declare heaven and hell are metaphoric. THESE ARE THE PILLARS OF ISLAM. They are what is required to be called a Muslim to accept Allah.

There are lots of Muslims who dont fast, dont pray, dont go hajj, dont wear hijab. However if you ask them if it is commanded by Allah they will say yes. But the reason for them not doing it is shaitans influnce

The line between that an murtad is huge as to be murtad you dont act upon say sawm and hajj or anything else commanded in the Quran and not only are you not doing it, you say that you are correct in not doing it. Which means you reject that Allah requires it despite it being commanded in the Quran.

Brother anybody who ever preaches in violation of what is commanded in the Quran is a DAJJAL. There are many Dajjals who will come b4 the great Dajjal. There is no fitna greater than that of the Dajjal. Please be aware of this

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More about the beliefs Nizari Ismailis from their own sites.I wouldn't call them "un-islamic" since well, who knows that the batin meanings of the Quran are but why do Sijistani(who never met an Ismaili imam) and Nasir Khusrow appear to be the main people who laid the foundations of Ismaili Shariat and philosophy, rather than the Ismaili imams themsleves?

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101017#anchor24_7

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106542

Why is it that the most "impressive" theories and doctrines of the Ismailis do not seem to be derived from the teachings of the Imams themselves but rather appear to the the works of sufi-type philosophers trying to blend ancient greek spiritual doctrines with Islamic view of the universe? Is the spiritual thought of the polytheist ancient greeks derived from God?? Can it be really considered valid? Why give it so much importance. Why so much focus on the un-explained (batin) parts of the Quran? Does it really have that much of an impact on a common man's life, that you build an entire school of thought around it?

Compare this with us Twelvers, our greatest religious works are the words of our Imams themselves, the knowledge of the Imams themselves, the Nahjul Balagha, the Al-Kafi, the Supplications of Imam Sajjad(as), the Bihar al-Anwar. We still cling steadfastly to the teaching of OUR Imams, the Imams of the formative times of the muslim world. Compared to Twelvers the Ismailis seem to have turned their backs on the works and teachings of the Imams they share in common with twelvers, instead swandiving into mysticism and batinism, which is not something tangiable. This may just be my own opinion,but i dont think the batin meaning of the Quran whatever it's significance can serve as a guide to live your life or base your laws upon. It may broaden your mind, but its not as practical in day to day matters as the zahir meaning, which the common man is concerned more with. If an imam tells you something of the batin of his own record, then well and good, otherwise its all just speculation. It should be left alone. Instead the focus should be on character building.

How many Ismailis actually read the works of Sijistani and Nasir Khusrow, and if they do, what do they get out of it? Has the sect which tried to study the hidden aspects of Islam sect now just devolved into, "Agha Khan says go to Canada, and we oblige"?

Im not saying become Twelver, what im saying is try to BE something. Hasan Ibn Sabbah was something, look at you now.

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More about the beliefs Nizari Ismailis from their own sites.I wouldn't call them "un-islamic" since well, who knows that the batin meanings of the Quran are but why do Sijistani(who never met an Ismaili imam) and Nasir Khusrow appear to be the main people who laid the foundations of Ismaili Shariat and philosophy, rather than the Ismaili imams themsleves?

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101017#anchor24_7

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106542

Why is it that the most "impressive" theories and doctrines of the Ismailis do not seem to be derived from the teachings of the Imams themselves but rather appear to the the works of sufi-type philosophers trying to blend ancient greek spiritual doctrines with Islamic view of the universe? Is the spiritual thought of the polytheist ancient greeks derived from God?? Can it be really considered valid? Why give it so much importance. Why so much focus on the un-explained (batin) parts of the Quran? Does it really have that much of an impact on a common man's life, that you build an entire school of thought around it?

Compare this with us Twelvers, our greatest religious works are the words of our Imams themselves, the knowledge of the Imams themselves, the Nahjul Balagha, the Al-Kafi, the Supplications of Imam Sajjad(as), the Bihar al-Anwar. We still cling steadfastly to the teaching of OUR Imams, the Imams of the formative times of the muslim world. Compared to Twelvers the Ismailis seem to have turned their backs on the works and teachings of the Imams they share in common with twelvers, instead swandiving into mysticism and batinism, which is not something tangiable. This may just be my own opinion,but i dont think the batin meaning of the Quran whatever it's significance can serve as a guide to live your life or base your laws upon. It may broaden your mind, but its not as practical in day to day matters as the zahir meaning, which the common man is concerned more with. If an imam tells you something of the batin of his own record, then well and good, otherwise its all just speculation. It should be left alone. Instead the focus should be on character building.

How many Ismailis actually read the works of Sijistani and Nasir Khusrow, and if they do, what do they get out of it? Has the sect which tried to study the hidden aspects of Islam sect now just devolved into, "Agha Khan says go to Canada, and we oblige"?

Im not saying become Twelver, what im saying is try to BE something. Hasan Ibn Sabbah was something, look at you now.

Very true. I would question Hassan e sabbah anyway to be honest. He druged people with narcotics to get them to fight, built a tower like a warlord, and attack and murdered people like no bodies business.

But anyway. Point is the hashashin and Hasssan e sabbah got mixed with a very secretive cult knowns as the Ikhwan al Safa (brthern of purity). Now these guys were into things like manucripts and more important for people to be aware of, the usage of rites, rituals, and mystic knowledge in order to evoke Jinn. There are many ancient arabic manuscripts on summoning Jinn that were used by these secret societies. This is why it was know as 'esoteric' knowledge. It was the manipulation of the Quran and specifically the names of Allah, in order to serve, what it very much seems like heretical means.

So all this batin batin etc is lodged in Ismailism and sufism alike. However the followers are like sheep and cattle. Havent a clue whats going on. The people who know how to practice the true tennets of the faith are higher up the order and unfortunately as most cases with 'esotericism; it develops simply into occultism and dealing with Jinns. So essentially misguiding people and leading to Hellfire rather than deepening the faith.

To be honest i cannot understand why an Ismaili shia would look at the rest of the sunni and shia population and what they practice and not find something deeply wrong with their own faith which is so far from Islam persoanlly i would say it falls outside of Islam.

Shia and Sunnis as i said previous post may differ on matters but the furoo od deen (the tennents and practices as derived for the Quran) are not debated. No one in their right mind ever questions the compulsion or farz of sawm (fasting), salaat, hajj etc.

I would honestly class Ismailism with Ahmadiyyas (Qadians), and Bahais to be honest. Bears very little resemblence to Sunna and Shia and classed as Kufar sect by most.

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Very true. I would question Hassan e sabbah anyway to be honest. He druged people with narcotics to get them to fight, built a tower like a warlord, and attack and murdered people like no bodies business.

But anyway. Point is the hashashin and Hasssan e sabbah got mixed with a very secretive cult knowns as the Ikhwan al Safa (brthern of purity). Now these guys were into things like manucripts and more important for people to be aware of, the usage of rites, rituals, and mystic knowledge in order to evoke Jinn. There are many ancient arabic manuscripts on summoning Jinn that were used by these secret societies. This is why it was know as 'esoteric' knowledge. It was the manipulation of the Quran and specifically the names of Allah, in order to serve, what it very much seems like heretical means.

So all this batin batin etc is lodged in Ismailism and sufism alike. However the followers are like sheep and cattle. Havent a clue whats going on. The people who know how to practice the true tennets of the faith are higher up the order and unfortunately as most cases with 'esotericism; it develops simply into occultism and dealing with Jinns. So essentially misguiding people and leading to Hellfire rather than deepening the faith.

To be honest i cannot understand why an Ismaili shia would look at the rest of the sunni and shia population and what they practice and not find something deeply wrong with their own faith which is so far from Islam persoanlly i would say it falls outside of Islam.

Shia and Sunnis as i said previous post may differ on matters but the furoo od deen (the tennents and practices as derived for the Quran) are not debated. No one in their right mind ever questions the compulsion or farz of sawm (fasting), salaat, hajj etc.

I would honestly class Ismailism with Ahmadiyyas (Qadians), and Bahais to be honest. Bears very little resemblence to Sunna and Shia and classed as Kufar sect by most.

I wouldn't believe all the Propangana that was put put about Hasan Ibn Sabbah. I dont think he really did go around drugging people. Its just that he was an opponent of BOTH the crusader s and the Sunnis. So they made all sorts of stories about him. The fword Aassasin isnt taken from Hashishin, instead it's taken from Assas or foundation or asset. And the esoteric knowledge the Ismailis went at, that was the old greek literaure of neo-platonism, in which the greeks tried to construct a rational framework of rationalize divinity since to them, Philosophy was the main science. I would commend the ancient ismails to be so broad minded and commited to rational though, no wonder they were among the foremost sects of the mideaval times with many thinkers & scientists belonging to them. Sufism was brought forward by the Abbasis as a counnter to the rationalist movements like the Mutazalites and Ismailis. The Agha Khanis were not only Ismalis, there were also the Qamarti Ismailis, who were SO fanatically agaisnt religious superstition that they raided Makkah and stole the Hijar-e-Aswad (stupid buggers). Those Qamartis even had for a time a state in Multan, which was later destroyed by Ghaznavi, and destroying it was part of his reason to invade India.

But as they are now today, they are just hopeless the Ismailis, its always their own Imams that have been their undoing historically, both in the Fatmid and Almatian ages

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Imam Ali(as) said:

"Acquire wisdom and truth from whomever you can because even an apostate can have them but unless they are passed over to a faithful Muslim and become part of wisdom and truth that he possesses, they have a confused existence in the minds of apostates."

"Knowledge and wisdom are really the privilege of a faithful Muslim. If you have lost them, get them back even though you may have to get them from the apostates."

So i wouldn't really see any reason to condemn their trying to study and gain something from the primary foreign philosophies of that were a hit that time. Its not their esoterism that was the problem,their scholariness & was their main plus. The problem was that their Imams turned their backs on the teaching of the imams they share with us twelvers, the Shariat-e-Muahmmadi that the Imams gave their lives for, they consider so insignificant that they abandoned them. They damned themselves.

You have a promising people, done in by their leaders foolishness.

The Bohris have given up and trried to go mainstrream. Lets see how the Agha Khans shape up in the future.

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Does anyone know if the Amman Message actually covers Ismailis? Are they Muslims by its definition? I know that the Aga Khan sent a letter approving of the Amman Message, but he lumped the Ismaili school with the Jafari school. To my knowledge, Jafaris do not believe Ismailis are Muslim, let alone that the Ismaili school is somehow part of the Jafari school.

I don’t think the Amman Message includes Ismailism for the following simple reason.

P1. The Amman Message only includes Sunni (maliki,hanafi,hanbali,shafi’) and Shia (ja’fari) madhahib.

P2. Ismailism (contrary to the Aga Khan) does not belong either to the (Shia) Ja’fari madhhab or the 4 Sunni madhahib.

C. Therefore, the Amman Message does not include Ismailism.

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I don’t think the Amman Message includes Ismailism for the following simple reason.

P1. The Amman Message only includes Sunni (maliki,hanafi,hanbali,shafi’) and Shia (ja’fari) madhahib.

P2. Ismailism (contrary to the Aga Khan) does not belong either to the (Shia) Ja’fari madhhab or the 4 Sunni madhahib.

C. Therefore, the Amman Message does not include Ismailism.

It also includes the Salafi, Ibadhi and Shia Zaidiyyah schools.

It's weird because the Aga Khan is a signatory and endorser of the Amman Message.

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I can never see a post like this one without asking myself one question: "And I? Am I a Muslim?" I do salat, pay zakat, say shahadah,fast in Ramadan, and will (inshallah) make Hajj in the next year. But am I a Muslim? Do I REALLY submit to Allah's will? The fact that I find the time to find fault with my, perhaps distant, neighbor's Islam speaks volumes about the quality my own.

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Salam,

when a person says "Ashadu Allah ilah ha ilah lah wa ashadu anla Mohammad (SAWS) rasulullah" it makes him or her Muslim. If he or she adds "ashadu anla hojjatollah Aliem wali ullah" then it makes him or her shia. It is not in our hands to judge if someone is Muslim or not. We just have to accept that someoen who says that he or she is Muslim, has to be treated like a Muslim, the rest is not for us to judge.

Wsalam, Mahdi

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Salam,

when a person says "Ashadu Allah ilah ha ilah lah wa ashadu anla Mohammad (SAWS) rasulullah" it makes him or her Muslim. If he or she adds "ashadu anla hojjatollah Aliem wali ullah" then it makes him or her shia. It is not in our hands to judge if someone is Muslim or not. We just have to accept that someoen who says that he or she is Muslim, has to be treated like a Muslim, the rest is not for us to judge.

Wsalam, Mahdi

Excellent reply! One of the things that hurts Islam's appeal to the rest of the world is the constant bickering---and killing---all in the name of who is or is not really Muslim. One would think we did not believe there was Allah to judge that question.

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It also includes the Salafi, Ibadhi and Shia Zaidiyyah schools.

I didn't include the Ibadhi and (original) Salafi madhahib because I figured that they are more or less Sunni. I didn't know the Amman Message, or Twelver Shi'ism for that matter, included the Zaidiyyah madhhab. What is the general view of the 'ulama?

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Why else would they include Aga Khan IV's endorsement on their website?

Good question. I don't know. I tried contacting them about this but was not able to.

In his letter, Aga Khan himself claims historic adherence to the Ja'fari Madhhab and "other Madhahib of close affinity."

That absolutely means nothing besides, perhaps, that at a certain point in history i.e. the Fatimid dynasty, Ismaili fiqh was close to or even maybe the same as Ithnashari jurisprudence. But what about now? What does it mean to belong to a particular madhhab anyway? Does adherence to a school of law depend on more or less loose historical affinities to that particular madhhab? If so, then I guess it's safe to say that Bahaism belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab because its origins are in Twelver Shi'ism or that the Ahmadiyya are Sunni because they grew out of that context. Many other examples can be cited, but of course that's something completely unacceptable to Sunni and Shia 'ulama !. One would think that The Aga Khan, given that he is 'the Imam', would be much clearer not only about what he means when he claims "historical adherence to the Ja'fari madhhab" but also why, if it's true, it follows from that that Ismailism therefore belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab. I don't seem to understand; maybe someone here can explain it to me?

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That absolutely means nothing besides, perhaps, that at a certain point in history i.e. the Fatimid dynasty, Ismaili fiqh was close to or even maybe the same as Ithnashari jurisprudence. But what about now? What does it mean to belong to a particular madhhab anyway? Does adherence to a school of law depend on more or less loose historical affinities to that particular madhhab? If so, then I guess it's safe to say that Bahaism belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab because its origins are in Twelver Shi'ism or that the Ahmadiyya are Sunni because they grew out of that context. Many other examples can be cited, but of course that's something completely unacceptable to Sunni and Shia 'ulama !. One would think that The Aga Khan, given that he is 'the Imam', would be much clearer not only about what he means when he claims "historical adherence to the Ja'fari madhhab" but also why, if it's true, it follows from that that Ismailism therefore belongs to the Ja'fari madhhab. I don't seem to understand; maybe someone here can explain it to me?

It is a bit odd, though Isma'ili fiqh itself was derived from Zaydi and Imami sources. I suppose 'Ja'fari' is just an umbrella term for Imami and Isma'ili fiqh since much of it is based upon the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as).

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I suppose 'Ja'fari' is just an umbrella term for Imami and Isma'ili fiqh since much of it is based upon the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as).

Unlike the Sunnis and Shias, modern day Ismailis don't have a jurisprudential framework under which they observe the Sharia'. There fiqh is thus not based on the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq; they don't even have fiqh properly speaking. Any general rules or formal laws they might observe are the rules and laws that the Aga Khan has prescribed for them. In other words, anything Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (or the Imams before him) said regarding ablutions, or salaat and etc, does not matter as the Aga Khan says otherwise. I still don't see how they are Ja'fari.

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if they say "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Mohammed Rasulu Allah" then they are muslims.

(wasalam)

Beautifully put and as long as they don't try to ram it down anyone else's throat or make claims that they have the only true interpretation of Islam - its all good.

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Unlike the Sunnis and Shias, modern day Ismailis don't have a jurisprudential framework under which they observe the Sharia'. There fiqh is thus not based on the narrations of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq; they don't even have fiqh properly speaking. Any general rules or formal laws they might observe are the rules and laws that the Aga Khan has prescribed for them. In other words, anything Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (or the Imams before him) said regarding ablutions, or salaat and etc, does not matter as the Aga Khan says otherwise. I still don't see how they are Ja'fari.

Well under Fatmid times they DID follow the Jafari fiqh, Jafari fiqh, to the best of my knowledge is based on ijtihad, more so than any other concept of Shariat. Thats what our Usooli concept of Marjiyat is based upon. To see what the fiqh of the Ismailis of the fatmiad times was like you have to see, the Mustaali Ismaili i.e the Bohras. They are like living fossils of the Fatmid age. They actually do follow the Shariat and pray, and follow hijab, commemorate muharram etcThe Agha Khan being the Imam is the Nizari one and only Marjah, their only interpreter of faith. In their view. They think dont need scholars or theology when they have a living Imam to lead them. In their he is like Imam Ali (as). A man who has the best knowledge of Islam and can thus answer every spiritual question. Although in my opinion a true imam would encourage his followers to learn the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) and the preceding Imams.

Twelver Imams always stuck to the Quran and citied the verses of the Quran very often in my observation of our literature. The Agha Khan doesn't ever seem to do that.

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Yea. I think im beginning to realise the obvious

Their are increasing numbers of young muslims in tis generation that do not keep up their salaat, do not go mosque, dont pay zakaat, dont wear hijab, engage in sinful activities etc. These are the ABC of Islam, the very basics and increasing numbers are not doing it. I dont think we should bicker when in fact their is waning Iman in the muslim population. The Ummah is extremely divided along both racial and sectarian grounds. If we were united we could focus on why the everyday youth of the Ummah is becoming like this, and look for ways to change this worrying slide. There is no point in hysterically pointing fingers and posting fatwas like salafis on who or who isnt a muslim, kufr, commited shirk or whatever because this is not the time for this if there ever is one in the first place.

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Yea. I think im beginning to realise the obvious

Their are increasing numbers of young muslims in tis generation that do not keep up their salaat, do not go mosque, dont pay zakaat, dont wear hijab, engage in sinful activities etc. These are the ABC of Islam, the very basics and increasing numbers are not doing it. I dont think we should bicker when in fact their is waning Iman in the muslim population. The Ummah is extremely divided along both racial and sectarian grounds. If we were united we could focus on why the everyday youth of the Ummah is becoming like this, and look for ways to change this worrying slide. There is no point in hysterically pointing fingers and posting fatwas like salafis on who or who isnt a muslim, kufr, commited shirk or whatever because this is not the time for this if there ever is one in the first place.

(wasalam)

I don't blame youth from becoming more distant from Islam considering the people who have appointed themselves as spokes people for Islam - a casual crawl through the MEMRI archive (and yes, the translations are accurate - so please don't bring in conspiracy theories in an attempt to undercut the point of what I'm saying) and there are self appointed 'scholars' claiming they speak for Islam. The scary part are the number of Muslims who then take what these scholars have to say without question and the claim that some how scholars are magically immune to dogmatism -humans are fallible and only God is perfection.

God gave us the Qur'an, prophets and one of the most powerful computers in existence, our brain, time for us to start using the brain instead of blindly following the opinions of self appointed gurus.

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