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Abdullah_A

Are Ismaili muslims?

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You're being vague. What laws are you talking about in particular which according to you are being said to be "abrogated" and by whom?

I guess I will have to leave it ambigious because then it would be a whole new topic all together. The issue is if certain things are obligatory now still and if they are by Quran (you can deduce if you think about it sincerely it's obligatory), then it would be kufr by these hadiths.

And according to one of the hadiths (in the 2nd link), if we ascribe something to the Deen not part of the deen, we are Mushriks.

So by definition, this would mean if we got some wrong laws, we would be Mushriks.

Unless it's changed to knowingly denying them...and some other hadiths verify Kufr only to be of such a case. This would apply to everyone equally then, you can't go picking one sect and saying it doesn't apply to them.

wa salam

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Then open another topic on it. I don't care to argue about vagueries (though I suspect I know what you're referring to and misunderstanding to mean abrogation when it's not)

Whatever you term it, any hypothetical obligation that is still obligatory now, if it's obligatory for society to do something right now per Quran and Sunna, and you are denying it, then those hadiths should apply in the same exact way.

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If it was individual responsibilities like salat and fasting, sure. But none of us say that. Laws that require certain conditions to be properly fulfilled in order for them to be carried out are another matter. Say you don't have the minimum number of Muslims in a city to hold a jum`a salat, then, you can't hold it. Doesn't mean you've "denied" the obligation of jum`a, it's just that it's being obligatory is dependent on the fulfillment of certain criteria, one of which is the minimum amount of attendees. If there are laws that require the presence of the Imam (as) in order to have their conditions of being wajib fulfilled, then obviously the ghayba would make them unfulfillable (in terms of being wajib for instance) until his re-appearance. So no, it isn't the same thing as the kufr of one who denies an responsibility like the daily salat where the presence or ghayba of the Imam (as) does not change its basic obligatoriness.

Furthermore, the Imams clearly rejected those people who 'abrogated' the Sharia and said that you didn't have to pray, or that alcohol was ok, or similiar things. They also rejected those who had 'odd' beliefs (beliefs that are unacceptable under the teachings of the Imams.

From what I know the Bohora Ismailis do not reject the Sharia obligations.

As for whether or not they are Muslims............. well that really depends on your point of view. They are definitely connected to Islam and come from Islam and had a big role in Islamic history. So socioculturally speaking, they are Muslims. I mean, they're not Jews. There are plenty of other people who had bizarre ideas in the past who were, socioculturally speaking, Muslims.

(For instance, the Khattabiyyah who said that Imam Sadiq - astaghfirullah - was God; or, if one wants to think about Sunnis, the anthropomorphists who thought that God had a head and foot and everything)

However, the Imams did reject those people who went against their teachings, and they 'excommunicated' people with 'extremist' beliefs (deifying Imams, saying that various deceased personalities had risen or that people other than the Mahdi had gone into occultation, reincarnation, etc). So from a Ithna Ashari Shia perspective, or theologically speaking, they have gone 'outside the boundaries of Islam' in terms of belief and practice.

If you don't mind me asking..... why it is it important to say one or the other? Unless someone is thinking of marrying an Ismaili man or lady - I can't think of any other reason.

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I got this information on internet and i was so shocked sounds like is aghakhanis in real mess

Dear Brothers-Sisters

As-Salaamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuhu

May I for the sake of Allah (swt), His Deen and the Muslim Ummaah, request you to please consider the following facts very carefully and decide on your responsibility before Allah (swt) in this matter.

I am a revert to Islam. I was an Ismaili before - a follower of the Aga Khan. And I perceive an important Da'wah responsibility which the majority of Muslims are for some reason or other are ignoring. I am not getting you into petty sectarian issues, but a very important matter - please judge for yourself:

1. The Ismailis (followers of the Aga Khan) all professedly believe that the Qur'an was time bound and was not meant to be a Universal message for all times. They believe that their spiritual leader, Karim Aga Khan, is the "walking - talking Qur'an" and his "religious pronouncements", whatever they may be, are the "guidance" for the present times. The fundamental article of faith that there will not be any NEW revelations or "wahy" after the Qur'an, is being completely violated by the Ismailis.

2. The Aga Khan has officially Declared himself, before his followers, as the "Mazhar of Allah on earth". The word "mazhar" means "copy" or "manifest". Consequently, these Ismailis who call themselves Muslims do "sujood" before him. So even the primary axiomatic principle of Tawheed is being fundamentally and formally violated by them.

3. The Ismailis are not instructed to offer the Islamic Salaah, observe Saum or perform Hajj. They have replaced Salaah with certain shirk-infested Dua'as (thrice a day). They are told that their Hajj is a personal "Glimpse" (Deedaar) of Karim Aga Khan.

4. The Aga Khan and his appointees 'forgive the sins' of the followers on regular basis. Ismailis are misled into believing that they will not be questioned on the Day of Judgment for the sins that are already forgiven in their Jamatkhanas (community centers). Forgiving of sins is the exclusive prerogative and privilege of Allah (swt) alone. Qur'an 3:135.

5. Against this backdrop, most of the poor (spiritually poor) Ismailis who are not introduced to al-Furqan are confused and misguided. Hence, Ismailis are very easy prey to missionary efforts by various Christian groups and Baha'is. I have known a couple of young ex-Ismailis who are today preaching "Pauline Christianity" to Ismailis as evangelical missionaries.

6. Karim Aga Khan's own daughter Zahra having married a practising Christian has opened the gates for young Ismailis girls to follow the footsteps of a family member of their beloved Imam-e-Zaman. The parents of the Ismaili girls who wish to marry outside of Islam have no recourse but to let them go.

7. The Aga Khan has made Halaal for the Ismailis that which Allah has made Haraam for the humans. Taking of interest (usury) is not forbidden by the religious instruction classes run by the "Tariqaah" board of the Ismailis. As a matter of fact, the much publicized "Venture Capital" program (details on the website of FORBES Magazine - search under "Aga Khan"), of loaning funds on interest by the AKFED (Aga Khan Fund & Economic Development), has been a great success. Similar entrepreneurial projects are now being actively promoted and introduced to poor Muslims of Tajikistan and neighboring areas.

8. The Muslim Ummaah and the various Muslim leaders are not fully aware of these Un-Islamic acts and beliefs of this community of less than two million members, who claim to be the Ismaili Muslims. Surprisingly, their leader Aga Khan claims himself to be a spiritual leader of 15 million Muslims and a Direct Descendant of Prophet Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).

9. Earlier, one did not have authentic books on Ismailism, but it is not so anymore. There are two authentic books as well as one comprehensive web site exposing the inner practices of the Ismailis and the Proclamations (Farmans) of the Aga Khans. Hence, now you have no "hujjah" argument or excuse left before Allah (swt) for not taking up the task of inviting the misguided "Ismaili Muslims" towards the Deen of Allah (swt) and not safeguarding them from committing unpardonable sin of Shirk.

10. The Aga Khan in collaboration with so many Western powers and aid, has set up the world-wide Aga Khan Development Network (AKDN) which runs several institutions and service companies both in the profit and not for profit sectors. This network is very actively operating in Pakistan, India, Tanzania, Uganda, Kenya and Bangladesh, and has now started concentrating its efforts in Tajikistan and the neighbouring areas where there is a concentration of Muslims who have not known or openly practised Islam for the decades. By taking up economical, social, educational and rural development efforts through NGOs (Non-Govt. Organizations) within the AKDN, the Ismailis and the Aga Khan have gained wide acceptance amongst these countries and masses. Hence this urgent appeal.

11. Now all these beneficiaries are "obliged and grateful" to the Aga Khan and his followers and his organizations for the much-needed schools, medical centers, hospitals, various projects and programmes. In this manner they are penetrating and infiltrating the support system - and one fine day, the Muslim Ummaah will wake up to the unexpected realization that they have a community of so called Muslims, practicing the Un-Islamic Tariqaah, in charge of all core and support activities. Each of these much-needed projects will have the photos of Aga Khan decorating the walls.

In the name of Allah (swt) and Islam, kindly urge our Brothers and Sisters to do Da'wah to the Ismailis, who otherwise will, on the day of judgement, hold us responsible for not conveying the Revealed Truth to them. Dear Brother/Sister, you know much more on the subject than what little I have learnt since reverting to the Deen of Allah (swt). It hurts to see the misguided simple minded people die on SHIRK because we did not amply warn them before their deaths.

I am aware of your stature as a religious leader of repute, respectability and acceptance among Muslim Masses, and hence have sought to put this appeal to you. I request you to seriously consider this request and initiate all steps that you consider Wajib and appropriate. To spread the "Truth" and eradicate "Tagoot" is a significant, major Sunnah of the prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).

May I also request you to please forward this e-mail to at least five (if not all) of your Muslim friends and activists so that greater awareness of this issue is created, and this request reaches a wider audience. Please do so. JazakAllah."

In case you wish to seek any further clarification please feel free to e-mail a message. I will Insh'Allah respond. I apologize in advance, if this happens to be a repeat message.

May Allah (swt) shower His Choicest Blessings on the entire Muslim Ummah. May Almighty Allah bless you and keep you in the service of Islam and Muslims. Aameen.

Jazak'Allah and Was salaam,

Yours in the Service of Islam,

Akbarally Meherally

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(salam)

I know for a fact that not all Ismailis reject Sharia. They are some Ismailis who upholds all the religious obligations such as prayers, fasting etc. They even keep the Prophet (sawa) family close to their heart. It is incorrect and totally unfair to pronounce Ismailis as Kafir.

Personally, I dislike people (common men) making takfir on each other. We don't like the wahhabis when they go around declaring Shia as kafir and fit to be killed. You need to be extra careful when you make controversial remark. You don't want to start oppressing people and get them killed because you don't like some aspect of their sect. With proper dawa, I am fairly confident that you will get good people back on track (the correct Islamic teaching).

The best is to check with your marja. He would know.

Edited by Zareen

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(salam)

I know for a fact that not all Ismailis reject Sharia. They are some Ismailis who upholds all the religious obligations such as prayers, fasting etc. They even keep the Prophet (sawa) family close to their heart. It is incorrect and totally unfair to pronounce Ismailis as Kafir.

Personally, I dislike people (common men) making takfir on each other. We don't like the wahhabis when they go around declaring Shia as kafir and fit to be killed. You need to be extra careful when you make controversial remark. You don't want to start oppressing people and get them killed because you don't like some aspect of their sect. With proper dawa, I am fairly confident that you will get good people back on track (the correct Islamic teaching).

The best is to check with your marja. He would know.

(wasalam)

Keep in mind there are two major divisions of the Isma`ilis (with further subdivisions within them), and they are quite different in regards to their stance with the Shari`a. Perhaps the ones you knew where Musta`lis (aka Bohras)? If so, that is correct. While misguided, they do offer their salat, fast, and so on. The other division however, the Nizaris (aka Agha Khanis), are a different story altogether with their rejection of Shari`a (e.g. not considering salat, fasting, hajj to be wajib as such). I can't really see how they could possibly be considered Muslims by this point.

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Is Allah (saw) not the Lord of east and west? Is it not ok to pray in whatever direction if you do not know which direction is facing the Kaba?

yes its ok if you dont, but if you know the direction, you have to face kaabaa, its on the quran, al baaqarah, several ayats is mentioning that (about 3 i recall)

"fa walli wajhaka syatral masjidil haraam" i forget which ayaat but its there, at ninenty's ayat, i forget whether 92 or 95 or something

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Perhaps the ones you knew where Musta`lis (aka Bohras)? If so, that is correct. While misguided, they do offer their salat, fast, and so on. The other division however, the Nizaris (aka Agha Khanis), are a different story altogether with their rejection of Shari`a (e.g. not considering salat, fasting, hajj to be wajib as such).

(salam)

I know both the Ismaili bohras and the followers of Aga Khan. I have met and talked with many followers of their sect.

I can't really see how they could possibly be considered Muslims by this point.

We'll I don't see how certain wahhabis are consider Muslims. They fast and pray but they also bomb and kill innocent Shias.

How about people who fought the ahlul bayt (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ayesha)? They are still Muslim right? :unsure:

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(salam)

I know both the Ismaili bohras and the followers of Aga Khan. I have met and talked with many followers of their sect.

One who knowingly denies a fareeda for the fara'id ad-deen is a kafir. So if the Agha Khani rejects salat (that du`a they do doesn't count), fasting, and hajj, then I can't see how they would not be out of the religion. Add to that their utterly corrupt beliefs and there's very little in common with their sect and Islam.

We'll I don't see how certain wahhabis are consider Muslims. They fast and pray but they also bomb and kill innocent Shias.

I don't disagree with that. Nawasib are kafir, and the Wahabis aren't even believers in tawhid regardless of how much they shout about it.

How about people who fought the ahlul bayt (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ayesha)? They are still Muslim right? :unsure:

Anybody who fought against the Ahl al-Bayt and died on their hatred is a kafir no doubt.

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We'll I don't see how certain wahhabis are consider Muslims. They fast and pray but they also bomb and kill innocent Shias.

How about people who fought the ahlul bayt (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ayesha)? They are still Muslim right? :unsure:

There is a general agreement in most historical Islamic scholarship that someone who commits heinous crimes but still professes the main beliefs of Islam (such as tawhid and the Prophethood) is still a Muslim. The correct word for these individuals is 'fasiq' and of course we would assume these people would be in the pit of hell - but, would be in the pit of hell as "Muslims".

However, those who deviate sufficiently from the primary beliefs of Islam are no longer considered Muslims, even if they are good people. An example would be Baha'is - the Baha'i split from Islam happened over some years, and the proto-Baha'is were originally a subsect of Islam. However, eventually they deviated sufficiently in their belief to become something else, and no one (not us and not them) calls them Muslims anymore.

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#1 One who knowingly denies a fareeda for the fara'id ad-deen is a kafir. So if the Agha Khani rejects salat (that du`a they do doesn't count), fasting, and hajj, then I can't see how they would not be out of the religion. Add to that their utterly corrupt beliefs and there's very little in common with their sect and Islam.

#2 I don't disagree with that. Nawasib are kafir, and the Wahabis aren't even believers in tawhid regardless of how much they shout about it.

#3 Anybody who fought against the Ahl al-Bayt and died on their hatred is a kafir no doubt.

(salam)

Thanks for clarifying. I am in complete agreement with you on point #2 and #3.

However, I have some doubt on point #1. The fact is they are many Shias and also Sunnis who do not pray (salah) or fast. They don't become non-Muslim because of that. We consider them as bad Muslims.

I have spoken to some Ismailis who do not pray or fast. They acknowledge that Holy Prophet(saw) did pray and fast but according to them it is no longer necessary. I have receive numerous answer for this, one that Salat and fast were only applicable to the Arabs in the time of Jahiliah.

My point is, there must be a minimum requirement for be considered as a muslim. :unsure: If we consider salat and fast as the main criteria to be considered as Muslims, then surely a huge segment of the Muslim community are non Muslims. Correct me if I am wrong.

Edited by Zareen

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There is a general agreement in most historical Islamic scholarship that someone who commits heinous crimes but still professes the main beliefs of Islam (such as tawhid and the Prophethood) is still a Muslim. The correct word for these individuals is 'fasiq' and of course we would assume these people would be in the pit of hell - but, would be in the pit of hell as "Muslims".

(salam)

I was thought that Muslims who do not pray and fast are fasiq. It doesn't matter if they are Sunni, Shia or Ismailis, Someone just don't become non Muslim if they believe in Allah swt and the Holy Prophet(sa). Technically, Ismailis are still Muslims based on your criteria - Tawhid and Prophet hood. They do not deny it. Neither do they reject the ahlul bayt.

I am detecting some disagreement with what you said (tawhid and Nubuwat) and with few points highlighted by bro macisaac (tawhid, Nubuwat, ahlul bayt, prayers and fasting).

Before we classify someone as a non Muslim, shouldn't we first decide what is the minimum criteria for being a Muslim. :unsure:

Edited by Zareen

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(salam)

Thanks for clarifying. I am in complete agreement with you on point #2 and #3.

However, I have some doubt on point #1. The fact is they are many Shias and also Sunnis who do not pray (salah) or fast. They don't become non-Muslim because of that. We consider them as bad Muslims.

I have spoken to some Ismailis who do not pray or fast. They acknowledge that Holy Prophet(saw) did pray and fast but according to them it is no longer necessary.

(wasalam)

The general position held at least nowadays is that one who does not pray (for example) because they don't believe it's wajib, then they are a kafir. It's denying a clear mandate of the religion. On the opposite end for instance, one who drink wine and denies it's haram to do so, is also a kafir. They are denying a clear mandate of Islam as such.

Now, one who believes salat is wajib, but neglects it out of laziness for instance is not generally kafir but one who is sinning. That said, personally I have some doubts on this on the basis of a number of riwaya I have read. (About the one who commits the great sin though while acknowledging its being haram and such being different from the one who considers it halal there are narrations that do affirm that distinction) Here, read them for yourself and see what I mean, though there are more narrations in that chapter (in Wasa'il) not up there (yet, in sha Allah):

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/preface-of-the-ibadat/kufr-of-one-who-rejects-the-daruriyat

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salam,

being a muslim takes to believe in

-there is no GOD but Allah (which the ismailis believe in)

-the PROPHET is the last prophet ( which i have heard conflicting comments on a few claiming the lineage of their imams to be continuing prophets and some claim them to be imams only in which case its ok)

-the QURAN is the ultimate book of GOD ( which they recite but not hold it in the true sense of a book that covers everythign till QAYAMAT. which is wrong and not muslimi)

- 5 pillars of islam has to be followed ( which they dunt follow and if they do it is very much different from the prophets teachings....infact a few claim that their imam has asked them not ot perfomr it as he will be answerable to Allah for all his ummah)

- saying YA ALI MADAD means they are holding ALI above Allah which is clear shirk as ALI is JUST AN IMAM considering the caomparasion with Allah SUBHANAWATAALA.

- they dunt face the KAABA when they pray where as it is sunnat of prophet and command of Allah to face the kaaba. this is apart form the objection of Allah being the master of the east and the west this is a lame excuse.

more over a few of the marjas have also counted them out of the fold of islam based on such practices fo thiers.

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Does anyone know if the Amman Message actually covers Ismailis? Are they Muslims by its definition? I know that the Aga Khan sent a letter approving of the Amman Message, but he lumped the Ismaili school with the Jafari school. To my knowledge, Jafaris do not believe Ismailis are Muslim, let alone that the Ismaili school is somehow part of the Jafari school.

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Depends on which Ismailis we are talking about. Bohri Ismailis are very much Muslim...they pray, fast, commemorate Moharram, and in general follow the practices of mainstream Muslims without major differences. Agha Khani Ismailis are a different case altogether. The Agha Khan's grandfather radically changed the religion to the point that all orthodox practices were thrown out and replaced with a cultist beliefs. In terms of practice, I would say the Ahmedi/Qadiyanni community is resembles Islam more than their sect. But technically you can't label them non-Muslims because unlike other Islamic cults like NOI and Ahmedis, they still believe in monotheism and Prophet Muhammad (saw) as the final prophet. So yes, they are Muslims but they are on the fringes of Islam.

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I am a Nizari Ismaili.

They offer prayer facing any side which means they do not necessarily face Kaba for offering their prayers.

This is wrong. We face kaba for offering prayers. There are tens of thousands of ismaili mosque all over the world and all of them face kaba. There was one mosque that had some issue in the past where they were confused, but then they fixed it latter. Kaba as great importance for ismailies, Other than many other Islamic importance, our first Imam Ali was born in Kaba.

While having fast, they can eat and drink even and when questioned they say that Fast is of your tongue, eyes and limbs not of your stomach

This is wrong. While fasting we don’t eat or drink. It is true that some ismailis believe that tongue, eye is limbs fasting is more important. Also there are ismailis from india (some of them who settled in Pakistan) know as khoja ismaili, they used to follow that fasting just for tongue, eye and limbs are enough.

To survive in religiously intolerant community of past Gujarat, khoja ismailis practiced taqiya and adopted some of the hindu practices and distanced themselves from wahabi islam. By doing this they got protected from both hindu fundamentalists and wahabi muslims. While aurangazeb (evil wahabi ruler of India), killed many shia, sufi, and moderate sunnis, khoja shia ismaili got protection from hindu rulers against aurangazeb (some shia ithnasary got the same support). After few generations khoja ismailis got so adapted to there lifestyle and their taqaya became their reality. But from last few decades things are now changes. Current Aga khan is working hard to bring these ismailis back to Shia sect.

Khoja ismailis are just a small minority of Nizari Ismailis (90% of all the ismilis are nizari ismaili). All the Nizari ismailis belive in Aga Khan as their Imam. Nizari ismailis (other than some khoja ismaili) strongly believe in the 5 + 2 pillars of Islam. And khoja ismailis have started following the same pillars. And insha-Allah soon there will not be any differences.

Is it true that Ismailis do no consider salat to be wajib, alcohol is no longer prohibited, gambling is permissible. I would like for an Ismaili to answer.

This is totally wrong. No Ismailis believe that alcohol is no longer prohibited. No one in my family ever drank alcohol, but I know at least 2 of my ithnasary friends who drink alcohol. Like ithnasaries there are some Ismailis who drink alcohol, but that does not mean alcohol is no longer prohibited. Same with gambling, these two things are very strictly prohibited in Ismaili Islam. Time and again Aga khan has made this very clear that no Ismailis should indulge in these anti-social habits. I am not saying that no Ismailis indulge in these anti-social activities, but if they are indulging in it, they are doing so by going against of Ismailism.

We pray 5 namaz in 3 times.

"Ya Ali Madad" -- Don't know whether Ismailis are Muslims or not, but the above characteristic in a person at least proves that he/she is biddati.

Ismailis do say Ya Ali Madad (O Ali Help). It is how you look at it. For you it may be biddat, but for us it is sunnat. We believe that Ali was send as a help from Allah to man kind. So asking Ali’s help is same as asking Allah’s help. If a post man brings me a post, I will not refuse to get help from post man in getting my post, only because the post is suppose to be delivered by post office. Post man is the part of the post office. So same thing with Ali and Allah. Asking help from Ali also means asking help from Allah.

This does not mean, we don’t say As-Salamu Alaykum, we do great muslims with salamu alaykum.

I think it is Allah, who should judge peoples faith, so stop calling some who do not have exact same believe as yours as Kafir. If you want to call Ismailis kafir then you don’t have any rights in stopping wahabies call Shia kafir.

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This is wrong. We face kaba for offering prayers. There are tens of thousands of ismaili mosque all over the world and all of them face kaba. There was one mosque that had some issue in the past where they were confused, but then they fixed it latter. Kaba as great importance for ismailies, Other than many other Islamic importance, our first Imam Ali was born in Kaba.

------------

Sure the jamatkhana's maybe built facing the Kaba, but you don't face it when offering prayers. That's why in your jamatkhana's there are people facing in every direction when your Ismaili du'a is being said. Atleast that's how it is in North America. In any case, the fact that it's not the same everywhere shows that it's not that important in Ismailism. Otherwise, it would be taken as seriously as the Sunni's and Twelvers take it. And even given that Imam Ali was born inside the Kaba, it still does not hold 'great importance' for you. Rather the 'didar' of your imam does.

This is wrong. While fasting we don’t eat or drink. It is true that some ismailis believe that tongue, eye is limbs fasting is more important. Also there are ismailis from india (some of them who settled in Pakistan) know as khoja ismaili, they used to follow that fasting just for tongue, eye and limbs are enough.

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The problem is your imam does not make fasting obligatory like he makes the 'du'a' you recite everyday obligatory.That is unacceptable. Many many Ismailis don't fast because of that fact.

This is totally wrong. No Ismailis believe that alcohol is no longer prohibited. No one in my family ever drank alcohol, but I know at least 2 of my ithnasary friends who drink alcohol. Like ithnasaries there are some Ismailis who drink alcohol, but that does not mean alcohol is no longer prohibited. Same with gambling, these two things are very strictly prohibited in Ismaili Islam. Time and again Aga khan has made this very clear that no Ismailis should indulge in these anti-social habits. I am not saying that no Ismailis indulge in these anti-social activities, but if they are indulging in it, they are doing so by going against of Ismailism.

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Your imam has forbidden the consumption of alcohol, thank God. But why hasn't he forbidden its selling, which he himself does through his hotels?

We pray 5 namaz in 3 times.

------

You don't pray namaz. You pray your du'a which one of your pirs composed and your imam approved.

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Anyone who says the la ilaha ila Allah is a muslim. Thats what the imams AS taught. So stop acting like yr god and have the keys to paradise in yr back pockets to janna, There are 1.6 billion muslims in the world and we are only a drop so stop bieng wahabis and judging others.

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Ismailis do say Ya Ali Madad (O Ali Help). It is how you look at it. For you it may be biddat, but for us it is sunnat. We believe that Ali was send as a help from Allah to man kind. So asking Ali’s help is same as asking Allah’s help. If a post man brings me a post, I will not refuse to get help from post man in getting my post, only because the post is suppose to be delivered by post office. Post man is the part of the post office. So same thing with Ali and Allah. Asking help from Ali also means asking help from Allah.

This is problematic. Clarify for me what you're doing here.

By saying Ya Ali Madad is Ali's (ra) help being invoked as in he's (ra) the granter or is his help being invoked as a way for your du'a tor each Allah (swt)? If it's the first, then that's shirk. If it's the second, then it is accepted.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more? Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj? I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.

I was doing so looking into on this topic the past month or so. Here, you might find these helpful

http://www.amaana.org/history/history1.htm

http://www.amaana.org/articles/Ismailidawa.htm

They are kind of exotic, but how they all squabbled for the tittle of Imam, how Fatmid prince fought Fatmid prince to claim the title of Imam, makes it all seem like a sham.

This site explain the unique & complex beliefs of the Ismailis pretty well

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/news/120/64/Qur-an-and-Isma-ili-ta-wil/d,pdb_detail_article/

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more? Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj? I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.

Ok. I also found these sites to be interesting sources of their history. The third is the most detailed but its also the most rabidly anti-Ismail

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab17 (Western Source)

http://www.iranmilitary.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4966 (Twelver Shia source)

http://www.islamawareness.net/Deviant/Ismailis/ismailis.html (Sunni/Salafi Source)

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I got this information on internet and i was so shocked sounds like is aghakhanis in real mess

Dear Brothers-Sisters

As-Salaamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuhu

May I for the sake of Allah (swt), His Deen and the Muslim Ummaah, request you to please consider the following facts very carefully and decide on your responsibility before Allah (swt) in this matter.

I am a revert to Islam. I was an Ismaili before - a follower of the Aga Khan. And I perceive an important Da'wah responsibility which the majority of Muslims are for some reason or other are ignoring. I am not getting you into petty sectarian issues, but a very important matter - please judge for yourself:

1. The Ismailis (followers of the Aga Khan) all professedly believe that the Qur'an was time bound and was not meant to be a Universal message for all times. They believe that their spiritual leader, Karim Aga Khan, is the "walking - talking Qur'an" and his "religious pronouncements", whatever they may be, are the "guidance" for the present times. The fundamental article of faith that there will not be any NEW revelations or "wahy" after the Qur'an, is being completely violated by the Ismailis.

2. The Aga Khan has officially Declared himself, before his followers, as the "Mazhar of Allah on earth". The word "mazhar" means "copy" or "manifest". Consequently, these Ismailis who call themselves Muslims do "sujood" before him. So even the primary axiomatic principle of Tawheed is being fundamentally and formally violated by them.

3. The Ismailis are not instructed to offer the Islamic Salaah, observe Saum or perform Hajj. They have replaced Salaah with certain shirk-infested Dua'as (thrice a day). They are told that their Hajj is a personal "Glimpse" (Deedaar) of Karim Aga Khan.

4. The Aga Khan and his appointees 'forgive the sins' of the followers on regular basis. Ismailis are misled into believing that they will not be questioned on the Day of Judgment for the sins that are already forgiven in their Jamatkhanas (community centers). Forgiving of sins is the exclusive prerogative and privilege of Allah (swt) alone. Qur'an 3:135.

5. Against this backdrop, most of the poor (spiritually poor) Ismailis who are not introduced to al-Furqan are confused and misguided. Hence, Ismailis are very easy prey to missionary efforts by various Christian groups and Baha'is. I have known a couple of young ex-Ismailis who are today preaching "Pauline Christianity" to Ismailis as evangelical missionaries.

6. Karim Aga Khan's own daughter Zahra having married a practising Christian has opened the gates for young Ismailis girls to follow the footsteps of a family member of their beloved Imam-e-Zaman. The parents of the Ismaili girls who wish to marry outside of Islam have no recourse but to let them go.

7. The Aga Khan has made Halaal for the Ismailis that which Allah has made Haraam for the humans. Taking of interest (usury) is not forbidden by the religious instruction classes run by the "Tariqaah" board of the Ismailis. As a matter of fact, the much publicized "Venture Capital" program (details on the website of FORBES Magazine - search under "Aga Khan"), of loaning funds on interest by the AKFED (Aga Khan Fund & Economic Development), has been a great success. Similar entrepreneurial projects are now being actively promoted and introduced to poor Muslims of Tajikistan and neighboring areas.

8. The Muslim Ummaah and the various Muslim leaders are not fully aware of these Un-Islamic acts and beliefs of this community of less than two million members, who claim to be the Ismaili Muslims. Surprisingly, their leader Aga Khan claims himself to be a spiritual leader of 15 million Muslims and a Direct Descendant of Prophet Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).

9. Earlier, one did not have authentic books on Ismailism, but it is not so anymore. There are two authentic books as well as one comprehensive web site exposing the inner practices of the Ismailis and the Proclamations (Farmans) of the Aga Khans. Hence, now you have no "hujjah" argument or excuse left before Allah (swt) for not taking up the task of inviting the misguided "Ismaili Muslims" towards the Deen of Allah (swt) and not safeguarding them from committing unpardonable sin of Shirk.

10. The Aga Khan in collaboration with so many Western powers and aid, has set up the world-wide Aga Khan Development Network (AKDN) which runs several institutions and service companies both in the profit and not for profit sectors. This network is very actively operating in Pakistan, India, Tanzania, Uganda, Kenya and Bangladesh, and has now started concentrating its efforts in Tajikistan and the neighbouring areas where there is a concentration of Muslims who have not known or openly practised Islam for the decades. By taking up economical, social, educational and rural development efforts through NGOs (Non-Govt. Organizations) within the AKDN, the Ismailis and the Aga Khan have gained wide acceptance amongst these countries and masses. Hence this urgent appeal.

11. Now all these beneficiaries are "obliged and grateful" to the Aga Khan and his followers and his organizations for the much-needed schools, medical centers, hospitals, various projects and programmes. In this manner they are penetrating and infiltrating the support system - and one fine day, the Muslim Ummaah will wake up to the unexpected realization that they have a community of so called Muslims, practicing the Un-Islamic Tariqaah, in charge of all core and support activities. Each of these much-needed projects will have the photos of Aga Khan decorating the walls.

In the name of Allah (swt) and Islam, kindly urge our Brothers and Sisters to do Da'wah to the Ismailis, who otherwise will, on the day of judgement, hold us responsible for not conveying the Revealed Truth to them. Dear Brother/Sister, you know much more on the subject than what little I have learnt since reverting to the Deen of Allah (swt). It hurts to see the misguided simple minded people die on SHIRK because we did not amply warn them before their deaths.

I am aware of your stature as a religious leader of repute, respectability and acceptance among Muslim Masses, and hence have sought to put this appeal to you. I request you to seriously consider this request and initiate all steps that you consider Wajib and appropriate. To spread the "Truth" and eradicate "Tagoot" is a significant, major Sunnah of the prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).

May I also request you to please forward this e-mail to at least five (if not all) of your Muslim friends and activists so that greater awareness of this issue is created, and this request reaches a wider audience. Please do so. JazakAllah."

In case you wish to seek any further clarification please feel free to e-mail a message. I will Insh'Allah respond. I apologize in advance, if this happens to be a repeat message.

May Allah (swt) shower His Choicest Blessings on the entire Muslim Ummah. May Almighty Allah bless you and keep you in the service of Islam and Muslims. Aameen.

Jazak'Allah and Was salaam,

Yours in the Service of Islam,

Akbarally Meherally

You know, that might just be propaganda, Since my father used to work alongside Ismailis and according to him, they did pray and fast. And they also considered drinking as haram. According to them, the current Agha Khan is more inclined towards having the Nizaris move back towards shariat than his predecessors. But the current Agha Khan is a good organizer, i'll say that much. Through their charity in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Central Asia and China, they're slowly trying to wean some of the most impoverished, neglected people in the world living in the Pamir region into their fold. The Agha Khan donated an absolutely enormous more money to Afghanistan, from what i heard. A new Alamut maybe?

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