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Seeing the Mehdi?


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#1 Qa'im

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:22 PM

(salam)

So we've all heard stories on how Imam al-Mehdi (as) has appeared to certain people and even ulema, sometimes leaving behind 'miracles'. But is this really true?

According to the last letter of al-Mahdi to Ali ibn Muhammad al-Samarri "from the day of your death [the last deputy] the period of my major occultation (al ghaybatul kubra) will begin. Hence forth, no one will see me, unless and until Allah makes me appear."

This indicates that Imam al-Mehdi's occultation is either distant or transparent, that he is somewhere beyond our site. Wouldn't this mean that it is impossible, in the words of the Mehdi himself, for one to see and speak to him during the major occultation?

#2 SpIzo

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 06:24 AM

(wasalam)

http://www.shiachat....h...t&p=1693303

#3 Jondab_Azdi

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:51 AM

(salam)

So we've all heard stories on how Imam al-Mehdi (as) has appeared to certain people and even ulema, sometimes leaving behind 'miracles'. But is this really true?

This is a very controversial subject, scholars have different opinions on this. Syed Fadhlallah(ha) does not consider these incidents to be established as reliable.

This indicates that Imam al-Mehdi's occultation is either distant or transparent, that he is somewhere beyond our site. Wouldn't this mean that it is impossible, in the words of the Mehdi himself, for one to see and speak to him during the major occultation?


There are different hadiths regarding seeing Imam al-Mahdi. . .

From al-Kafi,

ÚÏÉ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÝÖÇá¡ Úä ÇáÑíÇä Èä ÇáÕáÊ ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÇáÍÓä ÇáÑÖÇ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá - æÓÆá Úä ÇáÞÇÆã - ÝÞÇá: áÇ íÑì ÌÓãå¡ æáÇ íÓãì ÇÓãå

Imam al-Reda(as) when asked about al-Qaim, said: 'His body will not be seen nor his name will be mentioned'.

^It is graded as Muwaththaq by Allama Majlisi.

Another hadith:

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÍÈæÈ¡ Úä ÅÓÍÇÞ Èä ÚãÇÑ ÞÇá: ÞÇá ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: ááÞÇÆã ÛíÈÊÇä: ÅÍÏÇåãÇ ÞÕíÑÉ æÇáÇÎÑì ØæíáÉ¡ ÇáÛíÈÉ ÇáÇæáì áÇ íÚáã ÈãßÇäå ÝíåÇ ÅáÇ ÎÇÕÉ ÔíÚÊå¡ æÇáÇÎÑì áÇ íÚáã ÈãßÇäå ÝíåÇ ÅáÇ ÎÇÕÉ ãæÇáíå.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Ishaq ibn ‘Ammar who has said the following: "Abu ‘Abd Allah(a) has said, ‘Al-Qa’im will have two disappearances. One will be for a short time and the other for a longer time. No one will know his place during the shorter disappearance except the special persons from his Shi‘a. During his longer disappearance no one will see him except very special persons of his friends.'"


^It is also graded as Muwaththaq by Allama Majlisi, but there are different opinions regarding Ishaq b. Ammar(a fatihi). Najashi and Tusi considered him reliable, but Allama Hilli has mentioned him in his list of daif narrators and preferred to do tawaqquf on his riwayat.

---

I'm not sure about the translation of second hadith. . . (íÚáã = see?)

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi, 09 January 2009 - 09:56 AM.


#4 SpIzo

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:01 AM

This is a very controversial subject, scholars have different opinions on this. Syed Fadhlallah(ha) does not consider these incidents to be established as reliable.


This is news to me that it's a "very controversial subject". Apart from Fadlallah, which other scholar [especially classical scholars] considers these incidents as unreliable and that Imam Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã cannot be "seen"?

Those ahadith look quite alright to me and not contradictory. So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

#5 macisaac

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 12:29 PM

I'm not sure about the translation of second hadith. . . (يعلم = see?)

w/s



Here's my translation:



محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن ابن محبوب، عن إسحاق بن عمار قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: للقائم غيبتان: إحداهما قصيرة والاخرى طويلة، الغيبة الاولى لا يعلم بمكانه فيها إلا خاصة شيعته، والاخرى لا يعلم بمكانه فيها إلا خاصة مواليه.


Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from Ibn Mahbub from Ishaq b. `Ammar. He said: Abu `Abdillah (as) said: The Qa'im has two ghaybas: The first of them is short, the other is long. In the first ghayba, his location will not be known except by the Khass (special) of his Shi`a. And in the other, his location will not be known except the Khass from his Mawali.

Edited by macisaac, 11 January 2010 - 08:16 AM.


#6 Jondab_Azdi

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 12:47 PM

^Jazakallah, thanks.

#7 redman 123

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 02:26 PM

This is news to me that it's a "very controversial subject". Apart from Fadlallah, which other scholar [especially classical scholars] considers these incidents as unreliable and that Imam Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã cannot be "seen"?

Those ahadith look quite alright to me and not contradictory. So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.


It's Sayed Fadlallah by the way

#8 Qa'im

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 04:43 PM

(salam)

So if the majority believe he can be seen, does this not contradict his final message before occultation?

#9 zainab_

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 05:05 PM

(salam)

So if the majority believe he can be seen, does this not contradict his final message before occultation?



no its not a contradiction, seeing the mahdi in dreams is different than someone coming to some location and saying they are the Mahdi a.s. there will be some who come and say this, actually there is an entire religion where they believe the Mahdi a.s. came to them. There is a hadith which speaks of if someone says they see me etc it will be a lie I will not come before the rising of the (I forgot the name here)

so this is just a warning of people who will come saying they are the Mahdi a.s. but are not!

#10 Anjaam

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 05:19 PM

Al-Qaim ((the one who will rise with Divine Authority) will have two disappearances. One of them will be for a short time and the other for a longer time. No one would know his place during the shorter disappearance except the special persons from his Shia. During his longer disappearance no one will see him except very special persons from his friends."

Usool al-Kafi, Vol 1, Kitab al-Hujjat, H 906, Ch. 80, h 19
Allamah al-majlesi said: 'Muwathak' [Mirat al-Uqool, v4 p52]

#11 Jondab_Azdi

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 05:29 PM

Al-Qaim ((the one who will rise with Divine Authority) will have two disappearances. One of them will be for a short time and the other for a longer time. No one would know his place during the shorter disappearance except the special persons from his Shia. During his longer disappearance no one will see him except very special persons from his friends."

Usool al-Kafi, Vol 1, Kitab al-Hujjat, H 906, Ch. 80, h 19
Allamah al-majlesi said: 'Muwathak' [Mirat al-Uqool, v4 p52]


^This translation is not correct. See: http://www.shiachat....=...t&p=1810679

w/s

#12 Anjaam

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 05:37 PM

^This translation is not correct. See: http://www.shiachat....=...t&p=1810679

w/s



what makes you think that if the Mahdi's a.s. khass will know His a.s. location they wont see him?

I am not so sure this is a bad translation.

#13 SpIzo

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:51 AM

Jondab, this is the second time you have made this claim that it is a very controversial subject. I'd like to know which contemporary scholars held this position that no one can see the Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã during the time of Ghaybah al-Kubra and that all these incidents of meeting are unreliable?

#14 Jondab_Azdi

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:19 AM

Jondab, this is the second time you have made this claim that it is a very controversial subject. I'd like to know which contemporary scholars held this position that no one can see the Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã during the time of Ghaybah al-Kubra and that all these incidents of meeting are unreliable?


^Two different things. I meant that the controversy is for reliability of the incidents, not about possibility or impossibility of seeing/meeting Qaem(a)[as I'm not aware of any opinion of scholar about the possibility or impossibility of meeting Imam]

I did gave you an example of this before too, that the same incident are being used for different names of scholars[Allama Hilli, Majlisi, Mufeed etc]. As for the other incidents of meeting Imam, I don't have the stamped replies now. But I have confirmed this from a scholar here(not a mujtahid) that scholars have different opinions on this issue. I can PM you his details if you want. Will post the replies of marjas as soon as i get it, InshaAllah.

Those ahadith look quite alright to me and not contradictory. So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

Where did I say that the two hadiths i posted are contradictory? I only had the doubt about the translation. And I ain't trying to prove anything. I posted whatever hadiths I've read on this topic.
w/s

#15 SpIzo

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:32 AM

^Two different things. I meant that the controversy is for reliability of the incidents, not about possibility or impossibility of seeing/meeting Qaem(a)[as I'm not aware of any opinion of scholar about the possibility or impossibility of meeting Imam]


Seems like you change your opinion quite fast.

Make that the third time.

I did gave you an example of this before too, that the same incident are being used for different names of scholars[Allama Hilli, Majlisi, Mufeed etc]. As for the other incidents of meeting Imam, I don't have the stamped replies now. But I have confirmed this from a scholar here(not a mujtahid) that scholars have different opinions on this issue. I can PM you his details if you want. Will post the replies of marjas as soon as i get it, InshaAllah.


Even if different names of scholars are mentioned, it doesn't make that incident weak or unreliable in any way.

I know for one, Ayatullah Sayyed Muhammad Taqi Musawi Isfahani [r] who compiled the book 'Mikyalul Makarim' and Sayyed ibn Tawus [r] believed in these incidents. They both have said that these incidents are quite clear-cut to be denied. Shaykh al-Mufeed [r] was in contact with the Imam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã through letters, etc. .

Where did I say that the two hadiths i posted are contradictory? I only had the doubt about the translation. And I ain't trying to prove anything. I posted whatever hadiths I've read on this topic.
w/s


You tried to prove through those ahadith that Imam (atf) cannot be seen. You know your intentions better.

Edited by SpIzo, 10 January 2009 - 07:33 AM.


#16 Jondab_Azdi

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:39 AM

You tried to prove through those ahadith that Imam (atf) cannot be seen. You know your intentions better.


Not true. It this^ was my intention, I would not have posted the hadith(second one) which is going against by past arguments.

w/s

#17 siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 11:25 AM

Al-Qaim ((the one who will rise with Divine Authority) will have two disappearances. One of them will be for a short time and the other for a longer time. No one would know his place during the shorter disappearance except the special persons from his Shia. During his longer disappearance no one will see him except very special persons from his friends."

Usool al-Kafi, Vol 1, Kitab al-Hujjat, H 906, Ch. 80, h 19
Allamah al-majlesi said: 'Muwathak' [Mirat al-Uqool, v4 p52]


The above hadith is completely right. Seeing here refers to being guided and not physically seeing Imam. Very few seek guidance from him and he guides those who seek from him ajf.

Ya Ali Madad




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