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Allowed & Prohibited Food In The Old Testament


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#1 John Al-Ameli

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 11:07 PM

Bible (The Old Testament): Deuteronomy 14


Translated:

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1 You are the children of Yahweh your God: you shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2 For you are a holy people to Yahweh your God, and Yahweh has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3 You shall not eat any abominable thing. 4 These are the animals which you may eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, 5 the hart, and the gazelle, and the roebuck, and the wild goat, and the ibex, and the antelope, and the chamois. 6 Every animal that parts the hoof, and has the hoof cloven in two, [and] chews the cud, among the animals, that may you eat. 7 Nevertheless these you shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of those who have the hoof cloven: the camel, and the hare, and the rabbit; because they chew the cud but don't part the hoof, they are unclean to you. 8 The pig, because it has a split hoof but doesn't chew the cud, is unclean to you: of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch.

9 These you may eat of all that are in the waters: whatever has fins and scales may you eat; 10 and whatever doesn't have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean to you.

11 Of all clean birds you may eat. 12 But these are they of which you shall not eat: the eagle, and the vulture, and the osprey, 13 and the red kite, and the falcon, and the kite after its kind, 14 and every raven after its kind, 15 and the ostrich, and the owl, and the seagull, and the hawk after its kind, 16 the little owl, and the great owl, and the horned owl, 17 and the pelican, and the vulture, and the cormorant, 18 and the stork, and the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe, and the bat. 19 All winged creeping things are unclean to you: they shall not be eaten. 20 Of all clean birds you may eat.

21 You shall not eat of anything that dies of itself: you may give it to the foreigner living among you who is within your gates, that he may eat it; or you may sell it to a foreigner: for you are a holy people to Yahweh your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk.


22 You shall surely tithe all the increase of your seed, that which comes forth from the field year by year. 23 You shall eat before Yahweh your God, in the place which he shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there, the tithe of your grain, of your new wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock; that you may learn to fear Yahweh your God always. 24 If the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it, because the place is too far from you, which Yahweh your God shall choose, to set his name there, when Yahweh your God shall bless you; 25 then you shall turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go to the place which Yahweh your God shall choose: 26 and you shall bestow the money for whatever your soul desires, for cattle, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul asks of you; and you shall eat there before Yahweh your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 The Levite who is within your gates, you shall not forsake him; for he has no portion nor inheritance with you.

28 At the end of every three years you shall bring forth all the tithe of your increase in the same year, and shall lay it up within your gates: 29 and the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the foreigner living among you, and the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that Yahweh your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.



http://worldebible.c...teronomy/14.htm

#2 jund_el_Mahdi

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 11:53 PM

Yes this is true. I have many Christian friends who follow this to the tee. The current modern testament has been changed and edited by the various popes and kings and bishops and what have you throughout the middle ages and renaissance, etc. That's why you have King James version, and Matthew version and Luke and John and Peter and I don't know what.

This is the true Ingil as revealed to Nabi Isa (as).

#3 rzairul

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 12:27 AM

As far as I know, Christians argue that Old Testament order were replaced. This was done by (guess who?) Paul of Tarsus.

#4 Cypress

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 04:00 AM

I think the Revelation of Jesus is what the scholars find in the Injil. There are unique statements that scholars have evaluated as likely, less likely, not sure, unlikely, no way: you can even buy a copy of the New Testament. For example, scholars list as "no way" all the statements where Jesus claims divinity - those were added. But other statements are unique for the time, without parallel in existing scripture at the time and even shocking. An example is the work done by the Jesus Seminar.

You can read the works and decide on your own. I think they've done superb work, especially given the discovery of works like the Gospel of Thomas which - although having its own interpolated material - essentially agrees with their conclusions...

#5 Reepicheep

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:11 AM

Let's see what Jesus says about this topic:

"Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean'. Mark 7:18-19



#6 yonus

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:21 AM

Let's see what Jesus says about this topic:


Doesn't Jesus know that this food change into protine and vitamine to build flesh and reason of man and maybe Psychology ?

#7 Reepicheep

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:27 AM

Doesn't Jesus know that this food change into protine and vitamine to build flesh and reason of man and maybe Psychology ?


If you are claiming that eating (for example) pork causes people to act like pigs, I assume you likewise agree that eating chicken causes people to act like chickens?

#8 yonus

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:37 AM

If you are claiming that eating (for example) pork causes people to act like pigs, I assume you likewise agree that eating chicken causes people to act like chickens?


Lol I swear you make me laugh my friend .

There is a base says that every thing Allah prevent us to eat is good for us and we have time till resurrection day to search why this food is lawful and that food is unlawful .

#9 rzairul

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 09:39 PM

Let's see what Jesus says about this topic:


To get a more compehensive picture, I took Mark 7:1-23 English Standard Version from www.biblegateway.com

1(A) Then Pharisees and(B) scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2© "Why do your disciples break(D) the tradition of the elders?(E) For they do not wash their hands when they eat." 3He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God commanded,(F) 'Honor your father and your mother,' and,(G) 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 5But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, "What you would have gained from me is given to God,"[a] 6he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have(H) made void the word[b] of God. 7(I) You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8(J) "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9in vain do they worship me,
teaching as(K) doctrines the commandments of men.'"
10And he called the people to him and said to them, (L) "Hear and understand: 11(M) it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person." 12Then the disciples came and said to him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were(N) offended when they heard this saying?" 13He answered, (O) "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted(P) will be rooted up. 14Let them alone;(Q) they are blind guides.[c] And® if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." 15But Peter said to him,(S) "Explain the parable to us." 16And he said, (T) "Are you also still without understanding? 17Do you not see that(U) whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?[d] 18But(V) what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19For out of the heart come(W) evil thoughts,(X) murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness,(Y) slander. 20(Z) These are what defile a person. But(AA) to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."


My comments:
1. What "defile" means here? If it means it general meaning, that it makes no sense since if you eat something harmful, of course it will defile & harm you. If it means "defile spiritually", then it's also weird because it means that you will be OK spiritually if you eat food dedicated to pagan gods or human carcass.
2. You'll see that in verse 19, the words "Thus he declared all foods clean." were put in brackets. It means that it's the view of the writer of Gospel of Mark, instead of the actual word of Jesus himself.
3. The author's view was in direct contradiction of Matthew 5:17-18 where Jesus said that "he came not to abolish the Law of the Prophets but to fulfill them" & "not a dot will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
4. If you believe in the author's view, there are 2 possible interpretations.
a. The 1st one is like your view, the author believe that it's OK to eat anything.
b. Observe the beginning of the verse. It talks about "washing hand before eating". Then it's logical all other verses also still in this topic. So, what he meant by "all foods clean" was "all foods clean even though you're not washing your hand before eating". What he meant by food is something that's not forbidden to eat, e.g. he never thinks pork as "food"

#10 Maranatha!

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 07:54 PM

As far as I know, Christians argue that Old Testament order were replaced. This was done by (guess who?) Paul of Tarsus.


You should probably enhance your understanding. I find it a bit unfair given the fact that Muslims believe that Allah can abrogate his Word, but when Christians make the exact claim they are attacked as inconsistent. Its tantalizing the ridiculous and slanderous claims made of Christians by Muslims.

Also, you do recognize that there is a difference b/w Gentiles and Jews? Right?

Firstly, you are quoting passages that were made to a specific people, under a specific covenant. Since we are Christians, we are under a New Covenant, not an Old Covenant with a better mediator. Therefore making the 613 Mitzvah abrogated and fulfilled. The Law of the Old Testament was a tutor to lead us to Christ, it was a 'ministry of death' that revealed the sin and wickedness of men so that we can rely on God completely for salvation. Under the Old Covenant men were saved by faith in the promise. What was that promise? That through Abraham, God would bless the nations and his People would be numerous. This promise was given to the serpent in Genesis three. "He will crush your head you will bruise his heel." again, demonstrating that God promised a Messiah and a blessing to the nations (plural) through Abraham. This man, Christ the Messiah who was and is and is to come.

The order was not replaced but fulfilled.

#11 rzairul

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 08:34 PM

1. How many of 613 Mitzvot still Christians believe today?
2. Please tell me the logic you use to interpret a complete removal of food law = fulfillment, instead of the obvious fact = removal.

#12 nikita.cohen

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 03:00 PM

Bible (The Old Testament): Deuteronomy 14


Translated:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 You are the children of Yahweh your God: you shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2 For you are a holy people to Yahweh your God, and Yahweh has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples who are on the face of the earth.

3 You shall not eat any abominable thing. 4 These are the animals which you may eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, 5 the hart, and the gazelle, and the roebuck, and the wild goat, and the ibex, and the antelope, and the chamois. 6 Every animal that parts the hoof, and has the hoof cloven in two, [and] chews the cud, among the animals, that may you eat. 7 Nevertheless these you shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of those who have the hoof cloven: the camel, and the hare, and the rabbit; because they chew the cud but don't part the hoof, they are unclean to you. 8 The pig, because it has a split hoof but doesn't chew the cud, is unclean to you: of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch.

9 These you may eat of all that are in the waters: whatever has fins and scales may you eat; 10 and whatever doesn't have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean to you.

11 Of all clean birds you may eat. 12 But these are they of which you shall not eat: the eagle, and the vulture, and the osprey, 13 and the red kite, and the falcon, and the kite after its kind, 14 and every raven after its kind, 15 and the ostrich, and the owl, and the seagull, and the hawk after its kind, 16 the little owl, and the great owl, and the horned owl, 17 and the pelican, and the vulture, and the cormorant, 18 and the stork, and the heron after its kind, and the hoopoe, and the bat. 19 All winged creeping things are unclean to you: they shall not be eaten. 20 Of all clean birds you may eat.

21 You shall not eat of anything that dies of itself: you may give it to the foreigner living among you who is within your gates, that he may eat it; or you may sell it to a foreigner: for you are a holy people to Yahweh your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk.


22 You shall surely tithe all the increase of your seed, that which comes forth from the field year by year. 23 You shall eat before Yahweh your God, in the place which he shall choose, to cause his name to dwell there, the tithe of your grain, of your new wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock; that you may learn to fear Yahweh your God always. 24 If the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it, because the place is too far from you, which Yahweh your God shall choose, to set his name there, when Yahweh your God shall bless you; 25 then you shall turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go to the place which Yahweh your God shall choose: 26 and you shall bestow the money for whatever your soul desires, for cattle, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul asks of you; and you shall eat there before Yahweh your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 The Levite who is within your gates, you shall not forsake him; for he has no portion nor inheritance with you.

28 At the end of every three years you shall bring forth all the tithe of your increase in the same year, and shall lay it up within your gates: 29 and the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the foreigner living among you, and the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that Yahweh your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.



http://worldebible.c...teronomy/14.htm




Shalom. Please as well study the text in its original form before coming to conclusions.

Deuteronomy Chapter 14

א בָּנִים אַתֶּם, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם: לֹא תִתְגֹּדְדוּ, וְלֹא-תָשִׂימוּ קָרְחָה בֵּין עֵינֵיכֶם--לָמֵת. 1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
ב כִּי עַם קָדוֹשׁ אַתָּה, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ; וּבְךָ בָּחַר יְהוָה, לִהְיוֹת לוֹ לְעַם סְגֻלָּה, מִכֹּל הָעַמִּים, אֲשֶׁר עַל-פְּנֵי הָאֲדָמָה. {ס} 2 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be His own treasure out of all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. {S}
ג לֹא תֹאכַל, כָּל-תּוֹעֵבָה. 3 Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
ד זֹאת הַבְּהֵמָה, אֲשֶׁר תֹּאכֵלוּ: שׁוֹר, שֵׂה כְשָׂבִים וְשֵׂה עִזִּים. 4 These are the beasts which ye may eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat,
ה אַיָּל וּצְבִי, וְיַחְמוּר; וְאַקּוֹ וְדִישֹׁן, וּתְאוֹ וָזָמֶר. 5 the hart, and the gazelle, and the roebuck, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the antelope, and the mountain-sheep.
ו וְכָל-בְּהֵמָה מַפְרֶסֶת פַּרְסָה, וְשֹׁסַעַת שֶׁסַע שְׁתֵּי פְרָסוֹת, מַעֲלַת גֵּרָה, בַּבְּהֵמָה--אֹתָהּ, תֹּאכֵלוּ. 6 And every beast that parteth the hoof, and hath the hoof wholly cloven in two, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that ye may eat.
ז אַךְ אֶת-זֶה לֹא תֹאכְלוּ, מִמַּעֲלֵי הַגֵּרָה, וּמִמַּפְרִיסֵי הַפַּרְסָה, הַשְּׁסוּעָה: אֶת-הַגָּמָל וְאֶת-הָאַרְנֶבֶת וְאֶת-הַשָּׁפָן כִּי-מַעֲלֵה גֵרָה הֵמָּה, וּפַרְסָה לֹא הִפְרִיסוּ--טְמֵאִים הֵם, לָכֶם. 7 Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that only chew the cud, or of them that only have the hoof cloven: the camel, and the hare, and the rock-badger, because they chew the cud but part not the hoof, they are unclean unto you;
ח וְאֶת-הַחֲזִיר כִּי-מַפְרִיס פַּרְסָה הוּא, וְלֹא גֵרָה--טָמֵא הוּא, לָכֶם; מִבְּשָׂרָם לֹא תֹאכֵלוּ, וּבְנִבְלָתָם לֹא תִגָּעוּ. {ס} 8 and the swine, because he parteth the hoof but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you; of their flesh ye shall not eat, and their carcasses ye shall not touch. {S}
ט אֶת-זֶה, תֹּאכְלוּ, מִכֹּל, אֲשֶׁר בַּמָּיִם: כֹּל אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ סְנַפִּיר וְקַשְׂקֶשֶׂת, תֹּאכֵלוּ. 9 These ye may eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales may ye eat;
י וְכֹל אֲשֶׁר אֵין-לוֹ סְנַפִּיר וְקַשְׂקֶשֶׂת, לֹא תֹאכֵלוּ--טָמֵא הוּא, לָכֶם. {ס} 10 and whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye shall not eat; it is unclean unto you. {S}
יא כָּל-צִפּוֹר טְהֹרָה, תֹּאכֵלוּ. 11 Of all clean birds ye may eat.
יב וְזֶה, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-תֹאכְלוּ מֵהֶם: הַנֶּשֶׁר וְהַפֶּרֶס, וְהָעָזְנִיָּה. 12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the great vulture, and the bearded vulture, and the ospray;
יג וְהָרָאָה, וְאֶת-הָאַיָּה, וְהַדַּיָּה, לְמִינָהּ. 13 and the glede, and the falcon, and the kite after its kinds;
יד וְאֵת כָּל-עֹרֵב, לְמִינוֹ. 14 and every raven after its kinds;
טו וְאֵת בַּת הַיַּעֲנָה, וְאֶת-הַתַּחְמָס וְאֶת-הַשָּׁחַף; וְאֶת-הַנֵּץ, לְמִינֵהוּ. 15 and the ostrich, and the night-hawk, and the sea-mew, and the hawk after its kinds;
טז אֶת-הַכּוֹס וְאֶת-הַיַּנְשׁוּף, וְהַתִּנְשָׁמֶת. 16 the little owl, and the great owl, and the horned owl;
יז וְהַקָּאָת וְאֶת-הָרָחָמָה, וְאֶת-הַשָּׁלָךְ. 17 and the pelican, and the carrion-vulture, and the cormorant;
יח וְהַחֲסִידָה, וְהָאֲנָפָה לְמִינָהּ; וְהַדּוּכִיפַת, וְהָעֲטַלֵּף. 18 and the stork, and the heron after its kinds, and the hoopoe, and the bat.
יט וְכֹל שֶׁרֶץ הָעוֹף, טָמֵא הוּא לָכֶם: לֹא, יֵאָכֵלוּ. 19 And all winged swarming things are unclean unto you; they shall not be eaten.
כ כָּל-עוֹף טָהוֹר, תֹּאכֵלוּ. 20 Of all clean winged things ye may eat.
כא לֹא תֹאכְלוּ כָל-נְבֵלָה לַגֵּר אֲשֶׁר-בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ תִּתְּנֶנָּה וַאֲכָלָהּ, אוֹ מָכֹר לְנָכְרִי--כִּי עַם קָדוֹשׁ אַתָּה, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ; לֹא-תְבַשֵּׁל גְּדִי, בַּחֲלֵב אִמּוֹ. {פ} 21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself; thou mayest give it unto the stranger that is within thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto a foreigner; for thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. {P}
כב עַשֵּׂר תְּעַשֵּׂר, אֵת כָּל-תְּבוּאַת זַרְעֶךָ, הַיֹּצֵא הַשָּׂדֶה, שָׁנָה שָׁנָה. 22 Thou shalt surely tithe all the increase of thy seed, that which is brought forth in the field year by year.
כג וְאָכַלְתָּ לִפְנֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, בַּמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר-יִבְחַר לְשַׁכֵּן שְׁמוֹ שָׁם, מַעְשַׂר דְּגָנְךָ תִּירֹשְׁךָ וְיִצְהָרֶךָ, וּבְכֹרֹת בְּקָרְךָ וְצֹאנֶךָ: לְמַעַן תִּלְמַד, לְיִרְאָה אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ--כָּל-הַיָּמִים. 23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which He shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herd and of thy flock; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
כד וְכִי-יִרְבֶּה מִמְּךָ הַדֶּרֶךְ, כִּי לֹא תוּכַל שְׂאֵתוֹ--כִּי-יִרְחַק מִמְּךָ הַמָּקוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לָשׂוּם שְׁמוֹ שָׁם: כִּי יְבָרֶכְךָ, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it, because the place is too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set His name there, when the LORD thy God shall bless thee;
כה וְנָתַתָּה, בַּכָּסֶף; וְצַרְתָּ הַכֶּסֶף, בְּיָדְךָ, וְהָלַכְתָּ אֶל-הַמָּקוֹם, אֲשֶׁר יִבְחַר יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בּוֹ. 25 then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thy hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.
כו וְנָתַתָּה הַכֶּסֶף בְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר-תְּאַוֶּה נַפְשְׁךָ בַּבָּקָר וּבַצֹּאן, וּבַיַּיִן וּבַשֵּׁכָר, וּבְכֹל אֲשֶׁר תִּשְׁאָלְךָ, נַפְשֶׁךָ; וְאָכַלְתָּ שָּׁם, לִפְנֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, וְשָׂמַחְתָּ, אַתָּה וּבֵיתֶךָ. 26 And thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thy soul desireth, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul asketh of thee; and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thy household.
כז וְהַלֵּוִי אֲשֶׁר-בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ, לֹא תַעַזְבֶנּוּ: כִּי אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק וְנַחֲלָה, עִמָּךְ. {ס} 27 And the Levite that is within thy gates, thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no portion nor inheritance with thee. {S}
כח מִקְצֵה שָׁלֹשׁ שָׁנִים, תּוֹצִיא אֶת-כָּל-מַעְשַׂר תְּבוּאָתְךָ, בַּשָּׁנָה, הַהִוא; וְהִנַּחְתָּ, בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ. 28 At the end of every three years, even in the same year, thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase, and shall lay it up within thy gates.
כט וּבָא הַלֵּוִי כִּי אֵין-לוֹ חֵלֶק וְנַחֲלָה עִמָּךְ, וְהַגֵּר וְהַיָּתוֹם וְהָאַלְמָנָה אֲשֶׁר בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ, וְאָכְלוּ, וְשָׂבֵעוּ--לְמַעַן יְבָרֶכְךָ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, בְּכָל-מַעֲשֵׂה יָדְךָ אֲשֶׁר תַּעֲשֶׂה. {ס} 29 And the Levite, because he hath no portion nor inheritance with thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work



When you have learnt the hebrew language, you can go ahead and interpret Torah to your whims.

#13 Maranatha!

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 03:54 PM

1. How many of 613 Mitzvot still Christians believe today?
2. Please tell me the logic you use to interpret a complete removal of food law = fulfillment, instead of the obvious fact = removal.

1. How many of 613 Mitzvot still Christians believe today?


Have you read Matthew 5? Perhaps Christians affirm all necessarily moral laws, and implications. If a Christian wants to observe old testament food laws, he may do so. But under a New Covenant those things have passed.

2. Please tell me the logic you use to interpret a complete removal of food law = fulfillment, instead of the obvious fact = removal.


Because Christ was the fruition of Old Testament Law, he was the fulfillment. The 'logic' is the hermeneutic given by Christ. Its been 2000 years and the Jews and now the Muslims don't understand. The debate isn't over what the Old Testament says, but how do we interpret it. The hermeneutic that Jesus and the Apostles provided was always different than that of the Pharisee's and now the Muslims have become the Pharisees.

Also, you obviously take advantage of the fact that Christians and Jews have a concept of progressive revelation. Our books were not revealed in 22 years.

#14 Daystar

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 05:16 PM

[quote]name='rzairul' date='Sep 24 2008, 02:39 AM' post='1755390']
To get a more compehensive picture, I took Mark 7:1-23 English Standard Version from www.biblegateway.com


My comments:
1. What "defile" means here? If it means it general meaning, that it makes no sense since if you eat something harmful, of course it will defile & harm you. If it means "defile spiritually", then it's also weird because it means that you will be OK spiritually if you eat food dedicated to pagan gods or human carcass.
2. You'll see that in verse 19, the words "Thus he declared all foods clean." were put in brackets. It means that it's the view of the writer of Gospel of Mark, instead of the actual word of Jesus himself.[/quote]

Hello rzairul. You're correct about the parenthesis, but it is not inconsistent with what Jesus said in a the preceding verse: "Whatever enters a man from the outside cannot defile him." (Mk. 7:18) Would Pork not qualify as a "whatever?"

[quote]3. The author's view was in direct contradiction of Matthew 5:17-18 where Jesus said that "he came not to abolish the Law of the Prophets but to fulfill them" & "not a dot will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."[/quote]

Jesus would have required Jews to abide by Torah law, but at the same time he is anticipating the new covenant. The time would come (Pentecost) when it would be initiated and all foods become "clean." If a Jew ate pork before that time, he would have broken the law and sinned. But sin was still atoned for by the sacrifices. What Jesus was trying to do was show the Jews that the law revealed sin. No one could observe it perfectly as commanded by God. His death would set the stage for the new covenant where people would be led by the Spirit of God and not observance of the law, "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, IN ORDER THAT THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULLY MET IN US, WHO DO NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." (Rom. 8:3,4). Anyone who is in Christ has the law fulfilled in him and is not under law, rather grace (God's Riches At Christ's Expense).

[quote]4. If you believe in the author's view, there are 2 possible interpretations.
a. The 1st one is like your view, the author believe that it's OK to eat anything.
b. Observe the beginning of the verse. It talks about "washing hand before eating". Then it's logical all other verses also still in this topic. So, what he meant by "all foods clean" was "all foods clean even though you're not washing your hand before eating". What he meant by food is something that's not forbidden to eat, e.g. he never thinks pork as "food"[/quote]

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

#15 Paul Elliot

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 05:09 AM

Reepicheep has already provided the answer.

Read up on OT burnt offerings and sacrifices

http://www3.telus.ne...s/offerings.htm

http://www.americanb.../item.php?id=58

#16 yonus

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Posted 04 October 2008 - 07:09 AM

all foods clean even though you're not washing your hand before eating". What he meant by food is something that's not forbidden to eat, e.g. he never thinks pork as "food"


How do you arrive at that conclusion?


Smart thought !

Why Jesus was vegeterian ?

#17 Netzari

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Posted 06 October 2008 - 04:55 PM

Let's see what Jesus says about this topic:

"Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." In saying this, Jesus declared all foods 'clean'. Mark 7:18-19


I would like to raise a few points about this, but I'm in a bit of a hurry right now.

So I'll just say this:

What exactly did Jesus consider "food"? "Food" would be things that were permissible to eat (not pork, etc).

The debate in Mark is about whether a few of his disciples should wash their hands before eating, not kashrut laws.

#18 rzairul

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 04:32 AM

Have you read Matthew 5? Perhaps Christians affirm all necessarily moral laws, and implications. If a Christian wants to observe old testament food laws, he may do so. But under a New Covenant those things have passed.

Which verses of Matthew 5 are you refering to in proofing that Jesus abolish food laws?

Because Christ was the fruition of Old Testament Law, he was the fulfillment. The 'logic' is the hermeneutic given by Christ. Its been 2000 years and the Jews and now the Muslims don't understand. The debate isn't over what the Old Testament says, but how do we interpret it. The hermeneutic that Jesus and the Apostles provided was always different than that of the Pharisee's and now the Muslims have become the Pharisees.
Also, you obviously take advantage of the fact that Christians and Jews have a concept of progressive revelation. Our books were not revealed in 22 years.

You don't exactly answer my question. Let me rephrase it again: How can you conclude that a complete removal of food law = fulfillment, instead of the obvious fact = removal WHEN at the same time you believe Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 where Jesus said that "he came not to abolish the Law of the Prophets but to fulfill them" & "not a dot will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
If you want to reconcile Matthew 5:17-18 & Mark 7:19, you best bet is Jesus was not talking about abolishment of food law. Please read again my comment above.
You said that Jesus is the fulfillment. Please give me the actual word of Jesus to proof this (though I think it's not really related to the food law abolishment claim).
Additionally, please give me a DIRECT QUOTE of Jesus saying that the food law was abolished.

#19 rzairul

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 04:46 AM

Hello rzairul. You're correct about the parenthesis, but it is not inconsistent with what Jesus said in a the preceding verse: "Whatever enters a man from the outside cannot defile him." (Mk. 7:18) Would Pork not qualify as a "whatever?"

Jesus would have required Jews to abide by Torah law, but at the same time he is anticipating the new covenant. The time would come (Pentecost) when it would be initiated and all foods become "clean." If a Jew ate pork before that time, he would have broken the law and sinned. But sin was still atoned for by the sacrifices. What Jesus was trying to do was show the Jews that the law revealed sin. No one could observe it perfectly as commanded by God. His death would set the stage for the new covenant where people would be led by the Spirit of God and not observance of the law, "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, IN ORDER THAT THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULLY MET IN US, WHO DO NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE, BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT." (Rom. 8:3,4). Anyone who is in Christ has the law fulfilled in him and is not under law, rather grace (God's Riches At Christ's Expense).

How do you arrive at that conclusion?



Smart thought !

Why Jesus was vegeterian ?



I would like to raise a few points about this, but I'm in a bit of a hurry right now.

So I'll just say this:

What exactly did Jesus consider "food"? "Food" would be things that were permissible to eat (not pork, etc).

The debate in Mark is about whether a few of his disciples should wash their hands before eating, not kashrut laws.


Thanks Netzari, I agree with you. It also answers the question of Daystar & Yonus.
If you look the big picture of Mark 7:1-23, they talked about the debate of washing hand before eat, not the food law.
Since no direct quote of Jesus saying that he abolished the food law, it's logical to conclude that Jesus only considered food = "something that in line with food law". Otherwise, if you think that Jesus said food = everything that edible, could I say to you that this interpretation will allow cannibalism if the victim is consent?
Moreover, please read my posting above, You'll see that in verse 19, the words "Thus he declared all foods clean." were put in brackets. It means that it's the view of the writer of Gospel of Mark, instead of the actual word of Jesus himself.

#20 Maranatha!

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 08:35 PM

I would like to raise a few points about this, but I'm in a bit of a hurry right now.

So I'll just say this:

What exactly did Jesus consider "food"? "Food" would be things that were permissible to eat (not pork, etc).

The debate in Mark is about whether a few of his disciples should wash their hands before eating, not kashrut laws.


Incorrect, Matthew was written by a Gentile to Jews. Therefore food would be anything that Matthew as a Christian considered to be food. Also, why would Jesus declare food that was already cleaned to be clean? There is no necessity given the laws in Leviticus.

#21 rzairul

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 10:36 PM

Incorrect, Matthew was written by a Gentile to Jews. Therefore food would be anything that Matthew as a Christian considered to be food. Also, why would Jesus declare food that was already cleaned to be clean? There is no necessity given the laws in Leviticus.


What verse were you refering to here by saying "why would Jesus declare food that was already cleaned to be clean?"
Please read by posts above.

#22 Netzari

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 05:10 AM

Incorrect, Matthew was written by a Gentile to Jews. Therefore food would be anything that Matthew as a Christian considered to be food. Also, why would Jesus declare food that was already cleaned to be clean? There is no necessity given the laws in Leviticus.


Matthew wasn't a gentile!!! His name in Hebrew was Mattityahu! The author of the gospel obviously had a very intimate knowledge of Judaic religion and culture; the author utilizes "midrash" {lit. "to investigate" or "study"--is a Hebrew term referring to the not exact, but comparative (homiletic) method of exegesis (hermeneutic) of Biblical texts, which is one of four methods cumulatively called Pardes.} (Definition courtesy of Wikipedia ^_^ ) .

I think you confused him with Mark.

#23 Dhulfikar

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 05:17 AM

Let's see what Jesus says about this topic:


Salaam Aleikum,

What about eating human flesh?

#24 Reepicheep

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 02:12 PM

Zufa wrote: What about eating human flesh?

Are you referring to the "Sacrament of the Altar" (communion), or something else?

#25 Dhulfikar

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 02:44 PM

Zufa wrote: What about eating human flesh?

Are you referring to the "Sacrament of the Altar" (communion), or something else?


Salaam Aleikum,

Something else yes. I mean when i read "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." I can also get the picture that everything what we eat is clean...even the human flesh or organs.

I consider that this is an important question.

Edited by Zufa, 13 November 2008 - 03:26 PM.




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