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Who Are Alevi And What Are Their Belief ?

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We also have dedeleri and murschid let and have the same as below:

A - The functionary at the religious services

B - Dervish

C - Baba

D - Dede

E - Dede-Baba

Murschid/pir is someone whom has attained a higher spiritual level in Alevis and whom has passed the 4 paths, they can do kirklar semahi

Dede is someone whom is seyid and does cem

Edited by AleviTurkmenKhorasan

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From wiki

Haji Bektash Veli or Ḥājī Baktāsh Walī(Persianحاجی بکتاش ولی ‎‎ Ḥājī Baktāš Walī;TurkishHacı Bektaş Veli) was an AleviMuslim mysticSayyidhumanist and philosopher, who lived from 1209 to 1271.[1]who lived and taught from approximately 1209 to 1271 in Anatolia.[1] He is revered among Alevis for an Islamic understanding that is esoteric (spiritual), rational, progressive and humanistic. Alevi andBektashi Muslims believe the path of Haji Bektash is the path of Ali ibn Abu Talib, since Ali was the source of Bektash's teachings. His original name was "Sayyeed Muhammad ibn Sayyeed Ebrāheem Ātā", was one of the figures who flourished in the Sultanate of Rum and had an important influence on theTurkoman nomads of Asia Minor.[2] He is also referred to as the Sultan of Hearts[3] and the Derwish of the Derwishes.[4] Haji Bektash Veli was a descendant of the 7th Shi'a Imam Musa Kazim.

 

Exactly where I am and 99% Alevis are from

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And the difference is this

The biggest difference between all of these Sufi-orders is that in the Bektashi and Mevlevi-order everyone can become a 'dede' or 'pir' (religious spiritual leader / preacher), while in the mainstream Alevi belief only a sayyid, a descendant of the Prophet Muhammadthrough the Twelve Imams can become a dede.

Of course after the passing of Bektashi veli, things changed.

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11 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

^ Wrong bro

Alevi Bektashi is the same, Fact.

Not all Alevis consider themselves part of the Bektashi Order or recognize the Bektashi Order's authority even if they consider themselves followers of Hajj Bektash and not all Alevis even consider themselves to be Muslim. Your own personal feelings have no bearing on this fact

 

 

11 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Ottomans segregation and prosecution seems to be working.

Actually, the Ottomans patronized the Bektashi Sufi Order until the dissolution of the Janissaries. In the past, Bektashi could be found in Iran and Turkey and in Turkey, they were the more or less official Sufi Order of the Janissaries. And in many of the copies of Vilayatname of Haji Bektash Veli, the first Ottoman Sultan, Osman I, is mentioned as consecrated and blessed by Hajj Bektash Veli:

While Haci Bektas Veli's relationship with the Seljuk lords of Anatolia is somewhat ambiguous, compelling tradition holds that his interactions with the nascent Ottoman state was quite positive. The Vilayetname tells of contact between Haci Bektas and the founder of the Ottoman dynasty, Osman Gazi (1258-1326), who in the text is called by the diminutive Osmancik ("Little Osman"). We are told how Haci Bektas capped Osman Gazi with an Elifi Tac, how he girded him with a sword, how it placed in front of him the traditional badges of the Sufi faith, and how it lit the candle (cirag), while saying to him, "May your torch burn from the rising of the day until its sleeping." This is in complete disagreement with the testimony of the Asikpasazade, according to whom Haci Bektas had no relationship with the Ottomans at all.

--see the introduction to "The Saintly Exploits of Haci Bektas Veli" also titled "Manakib-i Haci Bektas-i-Veli 'Vilayetname'" published by Babagan Books with the express permission of the World Bektashi Order (http://www.bektashiorder.com/bookstore)

The Vilayatname which tells the story of Haji Bektashi blessing the Ottomans was widely available in Bektashi tekkes for centuries and is now available in English translation through their publishing firm, even though modern Bektashi researchers admit the story may be made up. But the point is that the Bektashi and Ottoman dynasty did not become enemies until the decline of the Janissary corps.

As far as non-Bektashi Alevi go, it's different because the Alevis the Ottomans persecuted were persecuted primarily because they saw them as "Qizilbash" and thus supporters of the Shi'a Safavids in Iran, but the Ottomans themselves supported Alevism through their respective branch of the Bektashi Order for years until the Janissaries fell out of their favor

11 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Bektashi is an offspring of Alevi, to be honest Alevi came after around 1600s 

The Bektashi Order was formally established by Balim Sultan in the year 1501.

11 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

We were Kizilbaslilar. 

This may be worth remembering:

As a final observation, we must mention a sociological study, which showed that only a small minority of Alevites (7%) describe themselves as belonging to the Ja'fari school or as being Shi'a (2.8%); the majority define themselves as Alevite (57%), Bektashi-Alevite (13%) or kizilbas (10%).

--Zarcone, Thierry "Shi'ism Under Construction: The Shi'a Community of Turkey in the Contemporary Era." The Shi'a Worlds and Iran. Ed. Sabrina Mervin. Saqi Books, 2011. p. 159

We have also had other users come on this site over the years who are from Turkey and who are either Alevi or come from Alevi families who have confirmed these differences of opinion on Alevi self-identity. I know Bektashi tend to identify more as "Shi'a" at least in the spiritual sense:

Outside of devotion to Imam ‘Ali, other Shicīte inspirations within Bektashi doctrine are the veneration of the twelve Shiīte Imams, as well as the “fourteen innocent ones” (Masûm-i Pâk), the martyred children of these holy figures. There is also adoration of the Onyedi Kemerbestigân, the seventeen loyal companions of ‘Ali, all of whom were girded with the esoteric knowledge of Reality. Reverence for the Twelve Imams takes on many symbolic forms in Bektashism. The tâc (ritual headgear) of dervishes, babas and dedes is called the Husaynî Tâc in remembrance of Imam Husayn. Embellishing this Husaynî Tâc are twelve gores (terks), each representing one of the Imams. Bektashi babas and dervishes wear around their necks a teslîm-i tâş, a stone carved with twelve flutes, likewise representing the Holy Twelve. Bektashis also openly claim to adhere to the mezheb (legal school) of the sixth Shicīte imam, Jacfar as-Sâdiq, despite their seemingly non-emphasis of outward ritual and legalism. As one Bektashi poet wrote:

Tâ ezel bezminden ikrâr eyliyen, şi’îleriz.

Bunda ol ikrârı tekrâr eyliyen, şi’îleriz.

 

Since the gathering of Eternity, we are Shi'ah.

Here, making this confession yet again, we are Shi'ah.

http://bektashiorder.com/thought-and-practice

Again, too, the Bektashi Order used to have a presence in Shi'ite Iran and elements of the Bektashi and the Qizilbash helped in the spread of Twelve Imam Shi'ism in Iran and supported the Safavids' claims to power.

Even on the wikipedia page for Alevism it states:

There is some tension between folk tradition Aleviness and the Bektashi Order, which is a Sufi order founded on Alevi beliefs. (see Ataseven, I: "The Alevi-Bektasi Legacy: Problems of Acquisition and Explanation", page 1. Coronet Books Inc, 1997)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevism#Sufi_elements_in_Alevism

Likewise:

According to Turkish university research conducted in 2005 by a researcher named Soner Cagaptay, 44% of respondents who called themselves "Alevis" self-identify as Muslim and 56% do not. (see Soner Cagaptay, The Rise of Turkey: The Twenty-First Century's First Muslim Power, p.90.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevism#Demographics

Such studies can hardly ever be completely accurate (I personally think the number of Alevis who identify as Muslims is most likely higher) but the fact is there are plenty of Alevis who identify themselves in a number of ways. Alevis who consider themselves true Muslims have tension with the secular Alevis who want to divorce it from Islam, and among those who identify as Muslim, there is some disagreement on the more precise identity of the Alevis. You say Alevis were Qizilbash, but only around 10% of Alevis apparently identify themselves as Qizilbash at all. And I know there are plenty of Qizilbash in Iran, Bulgaria, Azerbaijan and Afghanistan who don't necessarily identify themselves with the Alevis of Turkey or the Bektashi

While I understand that you may have strong feelings about your own Alevi identity and strong feelings about how Alevi should identify themselve, the reality is more complex than you'd like to believe.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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I agree brother, Osman 1 was Alevi too.

Check the hand gesture.

You cannot be an Alevi, if you don't believe in Allah, Muhammed and Ali 

Also instead of getting your information from outside, I recommend you speak to dedeler.

All dedeler say the same thing from east to west. Which is, we are muslim, Allah Muhamed and Ali 

The young Alevis have been assimilated,  and mostly believe they are kurdish which is also wrong

Yavuz massacred Alevis with the help of kurds.

All Alevis comes from Khorasan,  turkmen, oguz boylari, be careful from the armanian converts, as they have been trying to distort information.

Musa kazim I basically arranges marriage with turkmen, and Haci bektash is from this, as well as 99.9 percent of Alevis,  whom claim otherwise are not alevi. 

As to be an alevi you have to be seyid, from this bloodline of turkmen and Ahlibeyt. 

Firstly,  if an alevi denies haci bektash veli, than sorry you cannot be an alevi as you deny the foundation of what an alevi is, you become an atheist. 

As I said turkmens were mostly alevi, hence, Osman 1 is Alevi too, but after his passing his sons went astray due to marriages etc and sunni hoca.

Don't separate Haci Bektashi please from Alevi. 

As an alevi we also believe in 7 kemerbesh, 3ler, 5ler,7ler,12ler, 40 lar  etc

We are the foundation of Bektashi.

You do also know there was no alevi pre 1600s?

Everyone was named as Qizilbash and before that another name.

 

And brother again it is to split Alevis up, this has been going on forever and I agree with you, they do identify themselves as another which is wrong. 

Their dedeler even tell them they are on the wrong path, some Alevis also claim,  alevilik is without Hz Ali which is farce and sinful and wrong and against the whole foundation.

All I can say is, if you want to know the truth about Alevis,  visit and speak to an alevi dede.

A real alevi is from Khorasan and from Ahlibeyt and oguz boylari

Haci bektashi Veli is from their too and ottomans, hence they were alevi.

Yavuz collaborated with the kurds and put them in our villages to massacre and assimilate us.

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3 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

I agree brother, Osman 1 was Alevi too.

He was Sunni, but he could have also been Alevi as being Sunni and Alevi at the same time is not really a problem.

3 hours ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Also instead of getting your information from outside, I recommend you speak to dedeler.

All dedeler say the same thing from east to west. Which is, we are muslim, Allah Muhamed and Ali 

 

The problem is that an individual dede can't tell us what the general body of Alevis identify as. I think you are confused as to what we're discussing here. We aren't discussing what Alevis believe, but what they identify themselves as. Among the Alevi, as I said, there are a number of different views as to what they identify as being.

When I say that some Alevis don't identify as Alevi-Bektashi, I DO NOT mean to say that they don't believe in Haji Bektash Veli. Rather, I am only saying that they do not all identify as "Alevi-Bektashi" because this tend to imply that they are followers of the Bektashi Sufi Order, not that that they simply believe in Haji Bektash. Same reason that many Shi'a don't like to be called Sunni even though the word Sunni just means "follower of the Sunnah (of the Prophet p.b.u.h)" because while Shi'a do believe they follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), the word "Sunni" implies subjection to and identity with certain religious authorities, but if there was no fear of this case of mistaken identity, most Shi'a would gladly call themselves both Shi'a and Sunni if they could get away with it. The problem with identifying Alevis is not so much that Alevis have different beliefs but still call themselves Alevi, but that many Alevi have the same beliefs but identify themselves as different things.

Only a minority of Alevis identify as Alevi-Bektashi because they don't want to give the impression they follow the Bektashi Order of Dervishes which is headquartered in Tiranna.

With regards to the word "Qizilbash" most Alevi do not identify as such because it implies blood relation or association with the Qizilbash tribes that supported the Safavids and also because the word for years was a slur used by the Ottomans against specific groups. And also today, many Sunnis who don't like Alevis just throw the word "Qizilbash" around for anyone seen as too Shi'ite or who is seen as being tied to Iran. But the Qizilbash and the Alevi are separate things in that the Qizilbash adopted beliefs we now call "Alevi" but these beliefs existed before the Qizilbash and the Qizilbash got them from the Safavids, the Bektashi, the Hurufis and other groups. For the Ottomans, term Qizilbash just referred to the tribes who supported the Safavids while Alevi was something different,usually a reference to the Bektashi Order.

The Qajars, who ruled Iran after the Safavids, were a Qizilbash tribe and certainly didn't display any beliefs we'd call "Alevi" or "Bektashi" at least not any that weren't common to most Shi'ites or Sufis in Iran.

Being Alevi doesn't make you Qizilbash and being Qizilbash doesn't make you Alevi or Bektashi. Some Alevis today probably do descend from Qizilbash tribes absorbed into the Ottoman empire, but the beliefs of Alevism itself existed before the Qizilbash were around because Haji Bektash Veli died in 1271 CE, and the Qizilbash didn't exist until the 1400's when the followers of the Safavid order started wearing red headgear as a sign of allegiance to the Safavid house. And later on Qizilbash just became an ordinary set of tribal affiliations that didn't necessarily imply any special beliefs.

Most of the descendants of the Qizilbash in Iran and Central Asia today aren't what you might want to call "Alevi" and if they have any beliefs like the Alevi, it's only because most of them are Shi'ites or Sufis. And the Alevi of Turkey have little to no connection with them.

Between the late seventeenth century and 1822 the term “ Qizilbash” was also used in Ottoman administrative documents to identify Twelver (Imami) Shiites in what is today Lebanon. The Ottomans were aware they had no link to the Anatolian or Iranian Qizilbash, employing the term only as a means to delegitimize them or justify punitive campaigns against them. In the early eighteenth century, a part of northern Lebanon is even described as the “Kızılbaş mukataa” tax district

-- Stefan Winter, “The Kızılbaş of Syria and Ottoman Shiism” in Christine Woodhead, ed., The Ottoman World (London: Routledge, 2012), 171-183.

"It has been reported that, among the Ottoman Turks, kızılbaş has become something of a derogatory term and can be applied to groups that aren't necessarily associated with the Kazilbash of Central Asia. The Bektaşi in Turkey are often referred to as Kızılbaşi"

--J.W. Crowfoot, "Survivals among the Kappadokian Kizilbash (Bektash)", Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 30., 1900, pp. 305–20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash

 

I think you may be taking the word Qizilbash too seriously here. It's just like how today the Wahhabis like to keep calling all us Shi'a "Safavids" even though most Shi'a aren't related to the Safavid family. Most Alevis have no relation to the Qizilbash outside of Turkey. I don't doubt that there probably are Alevi who are related to the Qizilbash by blood in Turkey, but it is absolutely impossible that these constitute the majority of the some 12 million Alevis as there aren't even that many Qizilbash in Iran and Afghanistan. Some might be Qizilbash, but definitely not all or most and some of them may just be taking the Ottoman slur as a sectarian label without knowing what it means.

The problem here, again is identity. Are Alevi Sunni, Shi'a or something else? Personally, I don't think Alevism can really be considered a separate sect at all, but that's just my interpretation. I have yet to be convinced they can qualify as a separate sect of Islam unless one simply stereotypes Sunnis or Shi'a in order make Alevis seem radically different.

 

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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Brother I agree with you somewhat but let's get this straight.

OSMAN 1 IS AN ALEVI, FACT. 

This is how it starts: it starts in Turkistan, from Üç Kurgan Şeyh Hasan; whom is from Oguzlar’ın Bozok arm and Bayat boylari. Şeyh Hasan is born his grandad Bahşi Han is a bey. Musa-i Kazim family tries to escape Abbasi terror and they settle in Bahsi Han home. Bahşi Han son Ahmed’i marries Musa-ı Kazım’ın sons grandaughter Vedduha. After this marriage , Şeyh Hasan  ve Seyh Ahmet born. Bahsi Han son Ahmedi marries a seyyid , than starts tasavvuf.

      Seyh Hasan ve Seyh Ahmed, 10-12 age, gets education from Hoca Ahmet Yesevi dergahinda about bilim and ilim. Turkce tarikat ,Turk sufiligini,ahlaki ve tasavvufi kaide ve kurallari; they than become Hoca Ahmed Yesevi halifeler.

HACI bektash veli, of the many horasan erenler. Born in 1209. Father's name seyyid ibrahim El Sani,  mothers name Hatem'dir. Real name of Bektashi was Muhammed.

He was a very important tessavvufcu student of Lokman whom was a student of Ahmet Yesevi.

Came to anadolu during 1220- 1230 as an white pigeon.

Haci bektash after walking around and knowing the llace, settles in Haci Bektashi town, and this is where he establishes his first dergah.

Ahmet Yesevi, basically says to haci bektash, I will throw this stick and where ever it lands, you will open your dergah.

He invites anyone to be enlightened. 

You also have 24 oguz boylari and this splits in 2 groups, bozoklar are alevi and the other Sunni,  sunni go east towards China and alevis go west because they could not agree.

YEDI  ULU OZAN

SEYYİD NESİMİ (1369 – 1417)

ŞAH HATAYİ (Şah İsmail) (1487 – 1524)

FUZULİ (1504 – 1556 )

YEMİNİ (15. yüzyıl sonu-16 yüzyıl başı)

VİRANİ (16.yüzyıl)

PİR SULTAN ABDAL (16. yüzyıl)

KUL HİMMET (16. yüzyılın ikinci yarısı)

Check all Alevis history and they go back to oguzlar, some agree to Islam and others don't.  But same could be said about sunni turks.

We also have got some faith from Turkish old religion.

And I repeat don't separate Alevi from Bektash Veli.

The foundation of both are equal.

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The kizilbash in Turkey supported shah Ismail in fact, we were seen as enemies during yavuz Sultan Selim. 

All Alevis were kizilbash, today they may not identify theirselves as one however all Alevis were.

Most supported shah Ismail but others didn't go to war even though they are kizilbash.

Yavuz used the kurds and assimilated kizilbash Alevis Turks, with prosecution and putting them in our villages, hence many were scared to mention they were kizilbash 

There is no kurdish alevi because they are not seyit. They have been assimilated if they claim they are kurd.

An alevi has to believe in Haci Bektash Veli and ahmet yesevi as this is where we were taught about turk sufi alevi.

Ottomans yavuz, he became sunni did not like Turks,  as they were worried we will up rise hence the wars.

Before alevi it was Turkish Sufi-orders we were named as, than kizilbaslilar and than alevi.

And again Alevis Turkmens in Turkey went to iran etc to defend shah Ismail against Ottomans. This is why we are called Kizilbash as we also wear red as this symbolises the Hz Huseyin.

Which is why you have turk sufi turkmens in Iran etc

There is 30 million Alevis in Turkey brother, many are Turkmens around 80% hence they vote for chp Ataturk party.

The others have been assimilated by kurds during yavuz and hidden armanians during 1915.

Alevis are sufi turk and the way of Allah Muhammed Ali 

They are basically Turkic Islam interpretation.

My grandad is also from Oguz bayat, kayi and musa kazim. 

Alevilikte Üçler: Hz. Allah, Hz. Muhammed ve Hz. Ali'dir.

Beşler: Hz. Muhammed, Hz. Ali, Hz. Fatıma, Hz. Hasan ve Hz. Hüseyin'dir.

Yediler: Bunlar yedi ulu aşıklardır: Hatayi, Nesimi, Fuzuli, Kul Himmet, Virani, Yemini ve Pir Sultan Abdal'dır.

Oniki İmamlar: Hz. Ali Kerramallahü Veche, İmamı-ı Hasan, İmamı-ı Hüseyin, İmam-ı Zeynel Abidin, İmam-ı Muhammed Bakır, İmam-ı Cafer Sadık, İmam-ı Musa Kazım, İmam-ı Ali Rıza, İmam-ı Muhammed Taki, İmam-ı Aliy'yül Naki, İmam-ı Hasan el-Askeri, İmam-ı Muhammed Mehdi.

Alevilikte Kırklar 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Talut said:

Salam, 

Are Alevi Seyyeds and is marriage with them not possible as a non seyyed?

My uncle married a sunni female, I guess nobody cares anymore brother.

And yes Alevis are Seyyid. 

Family was against it though, saying it will ruin the bloodline of the Prophet. 

But also mums side has masAllah 8 brothers and sisters.

So I have 5 uncles and 3 aunties just from mums side masAllah which is why they did not really care if one marries with another, as long as they love each out its OK.

All the others married with Alevis.  

My one uncle is not will not marry as he put his life to Allah, trying to find the Hakk, secrets of Bektashis and the earth and Allah. 

I wish he knew English and he could explain. 

Alevis and Bektashis they are same; all dedeler in Turkey say this, but the Bektashis accept reverts hence Albania and Macedonia,  it seems though they are trying to create a new sect in Albania and Macedonia and separating from the beliefs of Alevi and Bektashis in Turkey which started them.

Sunnis have forcibly turned Koyun baba tomb into a mosque which both Alevis and Bektashis are against in Turkey.  

Both have dede, baba, murschid,  pir, etc 

Edited by AleviTurkmenKhorasan

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15 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

OSMAN 1 IS AN ALEVI, FACT.

 

Again, he was obviously Sunni, but like I said a person can be Sunni and still consider himself Alevi, and I'm pretty sure the word "Alevi" wasn't around at the time of Osman 1.

 

16 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Check all Alevis history and they go back to oguzlar, some agree to Islam and others don't.  But same could be said about sunni turks.

Right, but what I said was, and you seem to agree (I think it may just be our language barrier), was that Alevis identify themselves in different ways. Some of you Alevi say you're Muslim but not Sunni or Shi'a. Some of you Alevi say you're both Alevi and Sunni or Shi'a. And some of you are part of the Bektashi Dervishes, but others still believe in Haji Bektash while not being part of the Bektashi Dervishes and just follow other dedes. And still others of you say you aren't Muslim at all. And on top of that, some of you call yourselves Qizilbash while others do not.

It seems to me like Alevis still haven't really figured out just what they are, except for the Bektashi Sufis who seem to know what they are pretty well but I'm starting think that's just because what's called Alevism is just a set of beliefs that don't really belong to just one group of Muslims.

22 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

And I repeat don't separate Alevi from Bektash Veli.

The foundation of both are equal.

Again, I said from the beginning that Bektashi Dervishes are Alevi in belief, but I had to point out to you that not all Alevi support the Bektashi Order of Sufi Dervishes or call themselves "Alevi-Bektashi"

6 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

The kizilbash in Turkey supported shah Ismail in fact, we were seen as enemies during yavuz Sultan Selim. 

All Alevis were kizilbash, today they may not identify theirselves as one however all Alevis were.

Most supported shah Ismail but others didn't go to war even though they are kizilbash.

Yavuz used the kurds and assimilated kizilbash Alevis Turks, with prosecution and putting them in our villages, hence many were scared to mention they were kizilbash 

 

You're saying that there's 30 million or so Qizilbash in Turkey, but hardly even a million in the territories of the Iranian empire where the Qizilbash held the most power (Iran, Afghanistan)? Sorry, I'm not trying to offend you, but even if you yourself are related to the Qizilbash, it's downright impossible there are that many "Qizilbash" in Turkey. I think you're taking the Ottomans calling you Qizilbash too seriously and thinking all Alevi are Qizilbash cause they're Alevi. Alevis may be Turks, but there's no way they're all Qizilbash.

31 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Before alevi it was Turkish Sufi-orders we were named as, than kizilbaslilar and than alevi.

I think I'm beginning to understand your reasoning. The name "Alevi" may be new, but you understand your lineage/silsilah as extending back before that name.

Still, I don't think that many Alevi are descended from the Qizilbash, regardless of how Turk they are. It's just not possible by any stretch of the imagination.

 

39 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

My grandad is also from Oguz bayat, kayi and musa kazim.

Being Oghuz doesn't make you Qizilbash. The Qizilbash themselves killed many Oghuz Turks who opposed the Safavids (who were part Kurd). The Qizilbash referred to those tribes of Turkmen and Tajiks and Kurds who were part of the actual Qizilbash army (not all Qizilbash were Turkmen), if you aren't descended directly from the members of the Qizilbash army, you aren't really Qizilbash. You could be Oghuz and be more related to the Seljuks than the Qizilbash.

Again, not trying to say you aren't Qizilbash yourself, but there's no way 30 million Qizilbash are living in former Ottoman territory while there are less Qizilbash in former Safavid/Afsharid/Qajar territory. Also, you're forgetting that only about ten percent of Alevi even call themselves Qizilbash

 

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15 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

OSMAN 1 IS AN ALEVI, FACT.

 

Again, he was obviously Sunni, but like I said a person can be Sunni and still consider himself Alevi, and I'm pretty sure the word "Alevi" wasn't around at the time of Osman 1.

 

16 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Check all Alevis history and they go back to oguzlar, some agree to Islam and others don't.  But same could be said about sunni turks.

Right, but what I said was, and you seem to agree (I think it may just be our language barrier), was that Alevis identify themselves in different ways. Some of you Alevi say you're Muslim but not Sunni or Shi'a. Some of you Alevi say you're both Alevi and Sunni or Shi'a. And some of you are part of the Bektashi Dervishes, but others still believe in Haji Bektash while not being part of the Bektashi Dervishes and just follow other dedes. And still others of you say you aren't Muslim at all. And on top of that, some of you call yourselves Qizilbash while others do not.

It seems to me like Alevis still haven't really figured out just what they are, except for the Bektashi Sufis who seem to know what they are pretty well but I'm starting think that's just because what's called Alevism is just a set of beliefs that don't really belong to just one group of Muslims.

22 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

And I repeat don't separate Alevi from Bektash Veli.

The foundation of both are equal.

Again, I said from the beginning that Bektashi Dervishes are Alevi in belief, but I had to point out to you that not all Alevi support the Bektashi Order of Sufi Dervishes or call themselves "Alevi-Bektashi"

6 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

The kizilbash in Turkey supported shah Ismail in fact, we were seen as enemies during yavuz Sultan Selim. 

All Alevis were kizilbash, today they may not identify theirselves as one however all Alevis were.

Most supported shah Ismail but others didn't go to war even though they are kizilbash.

Yavuz used the kurds and assimilated kizilbash Alevis Turks, with prosecution and putting them in our villages, hence many were scared to mention they were kizilbash 

 

You're saying that there's 30 million or so Qizilbash in Turkey, but hardly even a million in the territories of the Iranian empire where the Qizilbash held the most power (Iran, Afghanistan)? Sorry, I'm not trying to offend you, but even if you yourself are related to the Qizilbash, it's downright impossible there are that many "Qizilbash" in Turkey. I think you're taking the Ottomans calling you Qizilbash too seriously and thinking all Alevi are Qizilbash cause they're Alevi. Alevis may be Turks, but there's no way they're all Qizilbash.

31 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

Before alevi it was Turkish Sufi-orders we were named as, than kizilbaslilar and than alevi.

I think I'm beginning to understand your reasoning. The name "Alevi" may be new, but you understand your lineage/silsilah as extending back before that name.

Still, I don't think that many Alevi are descended from the Qizilbash, regardless of how Turk they are. It's just not possible by any stretch of the imagination.

 

39 minutes ago, AleviTurkmenKhorasan said:

My grandad is also from Oguz bayat, kayi and musa kazim.

Being Oghuz doesn't make you Qizilbash. The Qizilbash themselves killed many Oghuz Turks who opposed the Safavids (who were part Kurd). The Qizilbash referred to those tribes of Turkmen and Tajiks and Kurds who were part of the actual Qizilbash army (not all Qizilbash were Turkmen), if you aren't descended directly from the members of the Qizilbash army, you aren't really Qizilbash. You could be Oghuz and be more related to the Seljuks than the Qizilbash.

Again, not trying to say you aren't Qizilbash yourself, but there's no way 30 million Qizilbash are living in former Ottoman territory while there are less Qizilbash in former Safavid/Afsharid/Qajar territory. Also, you're forgetting that only about ten percent of Alevi even call themselves Qizilbash

 

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Now I understand what you mean brother, you are trying to say we are not descendants but we're named kizilbash because of taking sides with shah Ismail. 

I think there is a misunderstanding on my part, sorry, and yes I agree with you, we were called Kizilbash for taking sides.

This could be true, but dedeler claim kizilbash because of Hz Muhammed and Hz Ali and you are right we are not descendants but named as that because of supporting the army.

Osman 1 was bektashi, most Turks were sufi turk., but later due to persecution and Arabs they turned sunni.

Also we were named bektashi before during bektashi time and later became alevi.

I agree Alevis whom are funded by Germany around 60£ million claim to be some other than Islam which is wrong.

Also I believe the name alevi was used to identify the seyyids of Bektashis.  

I agree with what you are trying to say.

And nope I am not from seljuklu as they were mostly sunni.

Me and most Alevis Are

Oguz-24 groups-Bozok-Bayat-kayi-ahlibeyt 

 

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