Jump to content
koroigetsuga

Should Christians Replace Verses From Ot With Hebrew Bible

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

^ There were thousands of tribal faiths on these two continents. One native scholar liked to say that they were "as different from one another as Shinto and Presbyterianism".  There was never one religion. There was never one type of spirituality. I can't say if there was any one aspect shared by all.  From my limited knowledge ...there are too many to study and some are now extinct and we don't know what they believed....there were monotheists, polytheists, non-theists, etc.

The " Great Spirit", far as I can tell, is popular with monotheistic whites because it dovetails with their own concepts. But it comes from certain Plains Indians concepts and is not representative of a great many faiths. It cannot necessarily be extrapolated to other groups. Even many traditional Plains natives think the non-natives  gravely misunderstood it. That's all I know.

The term  was never traditionally used around here and isn't now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ well I know this is :sign_offtopic: you have the "Wankan Tanka "of the Lakota, which is usually translated " Great Spirit " as well....and who knows how many others with their own nomenclature. But some scholars, native and otherwise, think more Christian concepts were placed upon this idea and that the equation of that term and the Abrahamic Deity is recent. Some prefer " Great Mystery" and don't think it refers to a sole creator-god. But I'm not an expert on Plains ,etc. theology. Looking forward to more native scholars coming out with their own research about their traditional faiths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Tribal religions are on the rebound.

I always wonder how these tribal religions started.

Because in some cases, their beliefs and rituals are so plainly bizarre. 

I am talking not only about America but tribal religions are there all over the world.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, baqar said:

I always wonder how these tribal religions started.

Because in some cases, their beliefs and rituals are so plainly bizarre. 

I am talking not only about America but tribal religions are there all over the world.  

 

Quite a lot is known about this subject. Especially when it comes the indo-eropean tribe which is now the largest in the world. All modern indoeuropean languages have developed from the language of this tribe that existed 5.000 years ago. Languages like, Persian, Greek, Spanish, Russian, English, German and Swedish. Most indoeuropeans have converted to Islam and Christianity, Sweden in 1.100 AD being rather late. Quite a lot about the original religion is known, like the personalities of their Gods, that have developed differently as the indoeuropeans spread. Still they can be identified. The greek Zevs, roman Jupiter and the Germanic Wotan were once the same. 

From northern scandinavia, through sibiria, over to alaska and greenland and all the way to southern America, people had, (and some still do) a shamanitic religion, basically different than the indoeuropean. 

Religions very much develop like languages. Slowly.

Edited by andres

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I once had a talk with a scientist ( anthropologist) ,an atheist herself, who said some of the tribal religions around  here were the most logical she had ever seen. "Make much more sense than the five majors. " It was interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

I once had a talk with a scientist ( anthropologist) ,an atheist herself, who said some of the tribal religions around  here were the most logical she had ever seen. "Make much more sense than the five majors. " It was interesting.

I dont really believe her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Some of her reasoning:

There is no personified " God" to please or pacify ( no gods at all really ....in many cases near here there is not even a creation story,the universe just is ) there are other beings that are relatives ( animals, plants, etc.) but they aren't worshipped 

Humans are simply gaining knowledge to get through life,not being judged or tested for anything 

It is based mainly on observed phenomena and practical needs  ( the rituals revolve around seasonal tasks) 

Social controls are logical and for purely practical reasons ( murder is a problem. Homosexuality is not.)

There is no fear of an afterlife....you just go to your ancestors 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

^ Some of her reasoning:

There is no personified " God" to please or pacify ( no gods at all really ....in many cases near here there is not even a creation story,the universe just is ) there are other beings that are relatives ( animals, plants, etc.) but they aren't worshipped 

Humans are simply gaining knowledge to get through life,not being judged or tested for anything 

It is based mainly on observed phenomena and practical needs  ( the rituals revolve around seasonal tasks) 

Social controls are logical and for purely practical reasons ( murder is a problem. Homosexuality is not.)

There is no fear of an afterlife....you just go to your ancestors 

 

 

I am not so certain. Many so called primitive religions also contain fears. Fears of evil spirits and powers. The OT tell about an underground place where both good and bad rest after they die. No heaven or hell, but having a good life on earth depends on the relations with the gods. I am sure they feared the Gods. More logical?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ She was not talking about all tribal religions. She was talking about the ones she was familiar with in this small region of our continent. Since one of them is still being practiced right in front of me, so to speak, I can say her observations are reasonably accurate. 

Fear of anything is based on observable phenomena....grizzly bears are often dangerous. So are some " spirits", as you would name them.  Other  things are helpful. Your quality of  life is based on how you deal with the bad ( usually avoidance ,sometimes battle) and enhance the good ( becoming, through experience and learning, the best darn fisherman  / artisan/Hunter you can). You can get the knowledge and tools to do it. It's a lot about personal responsibility. Not too much is blamed on " the gods". If your canoe gets smashed because you didn't check with the elders about reading the weather...your fault. The sea is just doing its thing. It didn't have it out for you.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Modern men may not fear the spirits. My impression is however that people in the good old days had many spirits and evils  to fear, and that seeking alliance with strong spirirual powers was essential. Why else would the first Israelites practice burn sacrifices on hills every now and then. Their arab neighbours even sacrificed royal blood to help  defeat Davids army.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ plenty of "modern men" are afraid of a supernatural being.

lol.  For the sake of argument....What is the difference between being afraid of many or one? You're still afraid.

However, tribal faiths were and are beautifully complex and varied. I don't think it's helpful if I oversimplify a complex situation. The anthropologist had an appreciation for that.

There were people all over the planet who practiced human sacrifice. There were people all over the planet who never did. Whatever the Canaanites were doing had no bearing on what people on the left coast of this continent were doing.

A good question is why they were all so different. I don't know the answer to that.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

A good question is why they were all so different. I don't know the answer to that.

That is the nature of evolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2017 at 7:08 AM, andres said:

That is the nature of evolution.

I Got to learn a bit about the Mayans on a visit to Mexico. Not that anybody knows the original reasoning behind all of their beliefs, but what they have found in Chichen Itza includes large semi precious stones and skeletons. They were very aware of the stars, and the sun, and especially snakes. Their big honour after winning their favorite game was for the captain of the team to be beheaded in front of the crowd. 

There is a missionary named Otto Koning, now well into his 80's who went to a very remote tribe in, I believe, Indonesia. These people were totally under the control of evil spirits and all the superstitions that come from disobedience. He tells stories of going hunting with them, two birds take flight and cross in front of them, that's it, that's the sign, hungry as they were, nobody goes any further. Also snakes were a big thing. Once again out hunting and almost to their favorite spot when the men all turned around to go home, Otto asked what, they told him of the snake that was across the path. He wasn't going to argue that crossing a snake large as a log, with neither end in sight was more than bad luck, so he beat it til he killed it while the tribesmen ran away. When he told them it was okay to cross, they told him that is was worse to cross a dead snake and the spirits would be after him. Apparently, on his way back he was confronted by this spirit, (as real as the recent deposit in his shorts).

Not that I totally understand how it works, but in an area where God is not, evil will control the people through fear, torture, possession, it happens. None of these "religions" are real, they are not organized, they only depend on what pleases the evil. It obviously works if a group of hungry men would rather take the first sign in a hunt to return, not only hungry themselves, but with nothing for their families either.

Otto Koning is famous for his pineapple story. It's on you tube somewhere, and worth the listen. It boils down to a very powerful message no church can properly teach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Son of Placid said:

I Got to learn a bit about the Mayans on a visit to Mexico. Not that anybody knows the original reasoning behind all of their beliefs, but what they have found in Chichen Itza includes large semi precious stones and skeletons. They were very aware of the stars, and the sun, and especially snakes. Their big honour after winning their favorite game was for the captain of the team to be beheaded in front of the crowd. 

 

Don't know much about what's going on in Indonesia, you'll have to ask them.

Has nothing to do with here. Things are quite organized here.

The Maya have things pretty organized, too.

Lol...the Maya....love 'em..I'm no expert and have had little opportunity to talk to them,but....what can you say about a group (still extant and currently carving out automous areas for itself in Mexico in spite of the Mexican government) that:

Developed a highly organized civilization ( in fact is considered one of the few " cradles of civilization" on the planet

developed a complex writing system

Was killer in mathematics ( including an explicit zero...which many other advanced cultures had somehow managed to miss) and the numerical system of which is currently be revived by them

created a complex interlocking mathematical calendar system more accurate than the European one ( aspects of which are still in use by them)...so,yes, they are " very aware" of the movements of celestial objects and other phenomena to mark time

domesticated and refined a lot of the major  food plants used today 

had art and architecture that just flabbergasted the Spanish invaders ( it would have been nice if the Spanish had not burned the codexes of the Mayans and other MesoAmerican cultures because we would know a lot more about " the original reasoning" behind concepts in those cultures ,like the ball game, if the Spanish had not been such ignorant barbarians)

As it is, we know from some other sources that the ball game was played in many places in MesoAmerica and was  played by men, possibly women, and children. It was obviously not always associated with sacrifices ( not in all areas or eras...in fact, sacrifice does not seem to be a factor in it until late Classical Mayan...whether as an honor or to get rid of war captives  or other reasons...not too sure) and may have been used as a substitute for warfare to settle disputes ( we have  the same tradition of using sport or games to settle disputes and to avoid conflict if possible). 

I'm glad they survived. Since they had a long history of ups and downs  before Europeans got here and there are millions of them, I'm looking forward to their next incarnation after this little invasion glitch. 

 

 

 

 

image.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A trip to Chichen Itza shows a very advanced civilization complete with an underground water system and inconspicuous man hole covers. Many of their original works were destroyed by the Spanish or abandoned, left for overgrowth to deteriorate. El Castillo, aka the Temple of Kukulcan still hides many mysteries. From what I understand, Kukulcan was a feathered serpent, 9th-century texts depicted him as "a Vision Serpent entwined around the figures of nobles", also depicted "presiding over sacrifice scenes".

It seems the serpent has made a rather large impression on humans over time. Despised by the three main religions, worshiped by many others. As diverse as these paganism are, the common denominator still seems to be a snake making the decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The serpent is a rather common religious figure over the globe, also in my part of the world. In Norse mythology a large snake surrounds yhe entire flat earth. The Bible tell that God had Moses make a coppersnake pole that could cure against venemous bites. Some centuries later, this and other poles were being worshipped by the Israelites. King Hezekia, faithful to the treaty with God, destroied them around 700BC. The serpent has been a symbol of medicine ever since and can be found on the entrance to swedish drug stores. Old Israelites were no less supersticious than my Viking ancestors or some isolated tribes today are. 

Edited by andres

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The snake!

Lord, anything but the snake!

The first time I saw a snake was when a small snake slithered into our house in India, when I was a little boy.

Apart from us boys, who were all scared stiff, there were no men in the house at the time.

So my grandmother summoned the most fearless men in the neighbourhood to kill the snake.

Only recently, a massive python swallowed an adult male in Indonesia.

The one animal I fear the most is the snake.

I hope I never ever see a real snake in my life ever again, not even in a serpentarium. 

Please, Lord, please!

No snakes please

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

A trip to Chichen Itza shows a very advanced civilization complete with an underground water system and inconspicuous man hole covers. Many of their original works were destroyed by the Spanish or abandoned, left for overgrowth to deteriorate. El Castillo, aka the Temple of Kukulcan still hides many mysteries. From what I understand, Kukulcan was a feathered serpent, 9th-century texts depicted him as "a Vision Serpent entwined around the figures of nobles", also depicted "presiding over sacrifice scenes".

It seems the serpent has made a rather large impression on humans over time. Despised by the three main religions, worshiped by many others. As diverse as these paganism are, the common denominator still seems to be a snake making the decisions.

There was no snake involved in any major story in this area around here. Very few stories of snakes at all, in fact, that I can remember. Big roles for Bear, Wolf, Coyote, Raven, etc. though. I'm sure cultures in less snake-rich environments had less to do with them.

Are you trying to say the Feathered Serpent is somehow like the trickster snake in the Jewish origin story? I'm not sure I could take the concepts and symbology of one culture/faith system and place it in another just because things " look alike". 

Take the " dragon", for instance. It's a symbol of evil, greed, destruction,etc. in the West. In the East, it is a symbol of wisdom, fertility, abundance, etc. Very much loved and honored.

The Feathered Serpent ( Quetzalcoatl,Kulkukan, also known by other names) was found in many cultures in MesoAmerica in different eras. Ones that practiced sacrifice and ones that didn't. Again, I'm no expert on it, and we would know more if we had more codices...there is only so much you can learn from architecture...but I know that some  MesoAmerican faiths were heavy into dualities...male and female, fire and water, earth and sky, etc... which a Feathered Serpent represents quite nicely. In most he represents wisdom, a connection between heaven and earth, communication between the divine and human. If I were to give him a spiritual pedigree, my opinion is he would be closer to the Chinese dragon than the trickster snake in Eden.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, baqar said:

The snake!

Lord, anything but the snake!

The first time I saw a snake was when a small snake slithered into our house in India, when I was a little boy.

Apart from us boys, who were all scared stiff, there were no men in the house at the time.

So my grandmother summoned the most fearless men in the neighbourhood to kill the snake.

Only recently, a massive python swallowed an adult male in Indonesia.

The one animal I fear the most is the snake.

I hope I never ever see a real snake in my life ever again, not even in a serpentarium. 

Please, Lord, please!

No snakes please

 

Lol. Hopefully they will stay away from you. I like snakes. They keep the rodent population down. I think they are more afraid of you than you are of them. Except one big gopher snake around here. She is not afraid of anything. She frequents this area and likes to lie on the hiking trails to sunbathe. I had to gently tap her on the tail to get her to move out of my way the other day. I was also afraid some mountain biker would hit her. But we only have one species of poisonous snake ( the rattlesnake) around here ( all the others are harmless) and no species is anywhere near big enough to eat a human. Things may be different in India.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, baqar said:

The snake!

Lord, anything but the snake!

The first time I saw a snake was when a small snake slithered into our house in India, when I was a little boy.

Apart from us boys, who were all scared stiff, there were no men in the house at the time.

So my grandmother summoned the most fearless men in the neighbourhood to kill the snake.

Only recently, a massive python swallowed an adult male in Indonesia.

The one animal I fear the most is the snake.

I hope I never ever see a real snake in my life ever again, not even in a serpentarium. 

Please, Lord, please!

No snakes please

 

Haven't seen a snake out here yet. 200+/- klms East in the badlands there are rattlers. Played with a few grass snakes as a kid. Knew a guy with the most gorgeous emerald python, but the older it got the more miserable it got. Bit somebody, then bit Greg on more than one occasion. I'm good without them. 

This is the year of the hawk. I'm going to tie up the lilac bush so the little birds have a chance. Right now, to get deep enough in the bush the hawks can't get them, the cat can. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

There was no snake involved in any major story in this area around here. Very few stories of snakes at all, in fact, that I can remember. Big roles for Bear, Wolf, Coyote, Raven, etc. though. I'm sure cultures in less snake-rich environments had less to do with them.

Are you trying to say the Feathered Serpent is somehow like the trickster snake in the Jewish origin story? I'm not sure I could take the concepts and symbology of one culture/faith system and place it in another just because things " look alike". 

Take the " dragon", for instance. It's a symbol of evil, greed, destruction,etc. in the West. In the East, it is a symbol of wisdom, fertility, abundance, etc. Very much loved and honored.

The Feathered Serpent ( Quetzalcoatl,Kulkukan, also known by other names) was found in many cultures in MesoAmerica in different eras. Ones that practiced sacrifice and ones that didn't. Again, I'm no expert on it, and we would know more if we had more codices...there is only so much you can learn from architecture...but I know that some  MesoAmerican faiths were heavy into dualities...male and female, fire and water, earth and sky, etc... which a Feathered Serpent represents quite nicely. In most he represents wisdom, a connection between heaven and earth, communication between the divine and human. If I were to give him a spiritual pedigree, my opinion is he would be closer to the Chinese dragon than the trickster snake in Eden.

The problem with a feathered serpent is it's symbolic. We can ask ICambrian when serpents had feathers, but I'm pretty sure of his answer. Dragons also, the majority are sort of serpents with legs and wings that would never get them off the ground. They aren't like a Bear, Wolf, Coyote, Raven, etc. that I could understand. Nobody ever gets to see one. Somebody might have centuries ago, or we're talking Leviathan. There's no evidence any of them were ever a physical being. imho, They are a fictitious creature that has an influence on how humans live their lives. Sounds potentially tricky to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's symbolic, unless we want to think the Mayans had knowledge of dinosaur feathers. However, composite animals aren't hard to imagine. Pretty sure nothing like a gryphon ever existed either. That doesn't necessarily make them malevolent. If I were to name an actual animal that might have given them the idea, I'd go I with the axolotl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

Things may be different in India.

Actually India probably has more snake charmers than any other country in the world. I have always envied the skill but I also think India may be on the top shelf as far as poisonous snakes are concerned.

That may be the cause of the fear instilled in me as a child. We have a lot of poisonous snakes, even the little ones. 

5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Played with a few grass snakes as a kid. Knew a guy with the most gorgeous emerald python,

Boy! I wish I was in Canada.

5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Bit somebody, then bit Greg on more than one occasion.

That is my constant fear that if a snake finds me, that may be the end of me, at least on this planet,  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • وَإِنَّ عَلَيْكَ اللَّعْنَةَ إِلَى يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
      And surely on you is curse until the day of judgement (15:35)

      لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنكَ وَمِمَّن تَبِعَكَ مِنْهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ
      That I will most certainly fill hell with you and with those among them who follow you, all. (38:85)  
    • Is there a shiachat calendar ?
       
    • Update: you guys, I had the best day at work! 
    • Hi rohani hand is above of ardogan hands that wants say that he want be leader of group Ardogan uses his two hands between Rohani & Putin that takes more space as it saying in news he want returns ottoman empire back &one hand of putin is from above is with Rohani  &also keep the hand of Ardogan so he wants both side &Rohani uses just one hand but lhis eft hand is free he is the only person in two picture that uses just one hand he don't want hand as waiting for Imam Mahdi (aj) but the others just want the world &nothing else.
×