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kellyjaz

Sunni & Shia View Of Muawiyah

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umar ra was murdered by abu lulu who by accounts appears to have been a mushriq and WAS NOT A SAHABAH

the murderers of usman ra names are not established from the sunni side with the excpetion of one who was a persian mushriq (i will have to double check this) - it seems that the shia believe theat muhammad ibni abu bakr ra killed uthman ra - if there was ever an insult to ali ra its accusing his foster son of murder :dry:

also dont forget that sunnis believe that sahabahs like abu hurrairah ra, hassan ra hussain ra etc etc offered to protect uthman ra but he refused

then in ali ra khalifa is when it all kicked off - hence only in ali ra khalifa do we know that there was differences.

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so farris whats your view on this

Al-Bukhari in his Sahih, part 2, page 149, reported that the Prophet said:

"A number of my companions will come to drink from the basin. When I recognize them, they will be taken away from my sight. I would say: 'My Lord, these are my companions.' And Allah will say: 'You do not know what they innovated after you.' "

Muslim in his Sahih, part 10, page 64, recorded that Anas Ibn Malik reported that the Prophet said:

Men from among the people who accompanied me shall come (on the Day of Judgement) to the Basin. When I see them and they are brought to me, they will be taken away from me. I will say: 'My Lord, these are my companions.' It will be said to me: 'You do not know what they innovated after you.' "

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i didnt mean to insult you sister - its just that every post on muawiyah seem to be from al islam or answering ansar etc etc with the same sources and the same mistakes.

and i forgot to ask you when you said you heard that muawiyah and yazid were ashra mubashara who did you hear it from?

I asked you and gave you few hoem truth about yazeed master place in karabalh ,,and his kufur ,,him and mouawiyah,,

I gave you autheticated proof ( NOT FROM ANSWERING ANSAWR),,AND i CAN GIVE YOU MORE

THAT MOUAWIYAH WAS KAFIR

SO WAS YAZEED

why do you not refute those hadiths ,,,,and then you refute the bases of your belife,,,= you have to revise who you belive in hence who you follow

you either defend mouawiyah and yazeed

or you defend tabari,,ibn kathi,,sahih muslim, and lots of other highly estimated scholars

are they fabriacting liars

or are mouawiyah and yazeed kufar.

no way around it

a person who saw the propeht and became muslim and died a muslim

brother "the persian shah" - whats your problem?? im sure you mistaken me for someone else.

ohh ,,,and how do you knwo they died as muslims were you with them ??

Because people's nature is to argue look at this site and world if we were all shia we would argue if all sunni we would argue . Just different topics same behavior.

bec there are alot of people that do not bother reading what was posted.

I gave authebtic hadiths from authentic sources,,that give defintion to mouawiyah and yazeed as kufar in thsi post

and Allah knows in lots ofother postsI only go for sahihs ,tabari and ibn katheir,,the bibles of sunni,,

and no sunni has ever DARED ,,say oh tabari is lying or you hadiths is right .

they just junp around and never give clouse to a topic by refuting what is given to them.

that my bro is the problemwhen you have nothing to defend with bec the base is all either fabricated or the truth hits the pillars of the base

you hav a go-round -circle of posts!!!

umar ra was murdered by abu lulu who by accounts appears to have been a mushriq and WAS NOT A SAHABAH

the murderers of usman ra names are not established from the sunni side with the excpetion of one who was a persian mushriq (i will have to double check this) - it seems that the shia believe theat muhammad ibni abu bakr ra killed uthman ra - if there was ever an insult to ali ra its accusing his foster son of murder :dry:

also dont forget that sunnis believe that sahabahs like abu hurrairah ra, hassan ra hussain ra etc etc offered to protect uthman ra but he refused

then in ali ra khalifa is when it all kicked off - hence only in ali ra khalifa do we know that there was differences.

oma,uthman,,mouayiah ,,even the last un decalred un accepted khalifat ,,ma2mooun and al ameen ,,sons of rashid,,fough against each other ,,

becthe base was wrong it ended in a disaster to this umaa

tell me when did the caliphate ever stop caliphs from fighting and killing each other over it,

1- omar and abu baker fough for it while rasoul Allah saaw was being buried

2-omar and othman murdered

3-etc....................................till the end of abnaa al rashid that KILLED EACH OTHER.

AND THE SORRY THING WAS ,IT WAS ALL POWER,,,MONEY

NOTHING IN THE NAMEOF ALLAS SAWT EXCEPT AL HOUSSAIN SA

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umar ra was murdered by abu lulu who by accounts appears to have been a mushriq and WAS NOT A SAHABAH

the murderers of usman ra names are not established from the sunni side with the excpetion of one who was a persian mushriq (i will have to double check this) - it seems that the shia believe theat muhammad ibni abu bakr ra killed uthman ra - if there was ever an insult to ali ra its accusing his foster son of murder :dry:

also dont forget that sunnis believe that sahabahs like abu hurrairah ra, hassan ra hussain ra etc etc offered to protect uthman ra but he refused

then in ali ra khalifa is when it all kicked off - hence only in ali ra khalifa do we know that there was differences.

just to start with, where was omar murdered.

and how did a mushriq get into the mosque

forget the made up history that you keep repeating

how was abu lulu in the mosque,

how come no one stopped him from being inside the mosque.

this means people were used to him being inside the mosque for praying.

now our brothers' (sunnis) cannot understand and fathom and accept and reconcile that abu lulu, a muslim, a sahabi (ra) could have killed another sahabi (ra) . this they could not hide, so what would they tell the world about their myth of sahabis-stars-follow-jannah.

and hence they made up this mushriq story

just like ibn saba the jew founder of shiaism story.

you see what we saw in uthman's time and ali(as) time was the wider gap of the schism/the crack/the split caused from earlier on. sometimes if you have played a game with a wooden stick like a bat the first crack or tear is not at all noticible to the lay eye and they think it is all hunky dory.

when later the bat breaks, they pin blame on the last stroke.

this tear my bro farris were the spoils of war at saqifa.

a thinking man would have slapped the people for not being at the janaza of their best friend/best leader/best everything. look at what the brain dead do, they praise them with made up fabricated ummayad lies. god the names were different, the purpose same.

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haideriam bro the sunnis are confused in general- this is from their OWN damn books

Al-Bukhari in his Sahih, part 2, page 149, reported that the Prophet said:

"A number of my companions will come to drink from the basin. When I recognize them, they will be taken away from my sight. I would say: 'My Lord, these are my companions.' And Allah will say: 'You do not know what they innovated after you.' "

Muslim in his Sahih, part 10, page 64, recorded that Anas Ibn Malik reported that the Prophet said:

Men from among the people who accompanied me shall come (on the Day of Judgement) to the Basin. When I see them and they are brought to me, they will be taken away from me. I will say: 'My Lord, these are my companions.' It will be said to me: 'You do not know what they innovated after you.' "

and not any old books- their "SAHIH" books- how can they justify their stance that ALL sahabas are guaranteed paradise if their OWN stance is that they WONT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

and SIS karbalah- soz for the mixup :blush: i automatically assume everyone is a brother lol

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haideriam bro the sunnis are confused in general- this is from their OWN damn books

Al-Bukhari in his Sahih, part 2, page 149, reported that the Prophet said:

"A number of my companions will come to drink from the basin. When I recognize them, they will be taken away from my sight. I would say: 'My Lord, these are my companions.' And Allah will say: 'You do not know what they innovated after you.' "

Muslim in his Sahih, part 10, page 64, recorded that Anas Ibn Malik reported that the Prophet said:

Men from among the people who accompanied me shall come (on the Day of Judgement) to the Basin. When I see them and they are brought to me, they will be taken away from me. I will say: 'My Lord, these are my companions.' It will be said to me: 'You do not know what they innovated after you.' "

and not any old books- their "SAHIH" books- how can they justify their stance that ALL sahabas are guaranteed paradise if their OWN stance is that they WONT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

and SIS karbalah- soz for the mixup :blush: i automatically assume everyone is a brother lol

bro malanga

it is not the sunnis for the sunnis are honest folks

it is the wahabis, they keep on changing and chopping - like they now say we are also the companions.

these people are like the worms, keep on metamorphosizing. first it was wahabis, then salafis, then deobandis, then ahle hadith, then habashis then god knows what. they are the followers of the creed of abdul wahhab the najdi.

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bro malanga

it is not the sunnis for the sunnis are honest folks

it is the wahabis, they keep on changing and chopping - like they now say we are also the companions.

these people are like the worms, keep on metamorphosizing. first it was wahabis, then salafis, then deobandis, then ahle hadith, then habashis then god knows what. they are the followers of the creed of abdul wahhab the najdi.

bro haideriam i hear that man, its basically....whatever the shia say- theyll do their BEST to support the opposite, even if it goes against all their books, beliefs, or indeed basic common sense.

theyre worse than worms, to liken the scum to worms is an insult to worms, theyre like the HIV virus, always mutating and changing their coats so we cant just ERADICATE them cos theyll just come back as something else.

from what i understand, they dont want to be called "wahabbis" anymore- its salafi right? pathetic man

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Since both Muwaiyah and Yazid are both dead, and their empires long gone, should we continue this debate, what purpose does it serve but to create greater division?

All historical accounts refer to Yazid being quite shocked when he was informed of the terrable fate of Imam Husayn particularly the manner of his death. Allah alone knows who is Kafir and who is not, Yazid will pay for his errors; but Allah is also Most Merciful, and we should leave it to his will.

The Umayids went onto found a wonderful, and highly cultured state in Spain which was a shinning star of Islamic tolorence and understanding, and perhaps the lessons they can teach are more relevant to us today, so even from great error and pain islam found a way to transform Muslims again into somthing wonderful.

May God grant us Peace.

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Whenever there is a disagreement we tend to revert to calling people, Kafir, wahabiyya/salafiyya.

I Believe this lowers the tone of debate or dialogue. It seems to be the view that any Sunni who holds a particular view MUST necessarily be a Wahabbi/Salafi, regardless of inconvenient factors such as; facts.

By any measure Wahabbi are a reform movement within the Hanboli Madhab of Sunni Islam. While their views are stringent and I often struggle to find common ground, many Wahabbi are also intelligent, kind, and thoughtful individuals who sincerely believe in their interpretation of Islam.

Throwing Wahabbi around a room as an insult, and suggesting that all Wahabbi/Salafiyya are intolerant, and hateful, is plain wrong, and worse incites the very same intolerance, spite and hate, one is so offended by.

Here’s hoping!

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All historical accounts refer to Yazid being quite shocked when he was informed of the terrable fate of Imam Husayn particularly the manner of his death.

Salam bro

would you mind please proving this statement?

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just to start with, where was omar murdered.

and how did a mushriq get into the mosque

forget the made up history that you keep repeating

how was abu lulu in the mosque,

how come no one stopped him from being inside the mosque.

this means people were used to him being inside the mosque for praying.

now our brothers' (sunnis) cannot understand and fathom and accept and reconcile that abu lulu, a muslim, a sahabi could have killed another sahabi . this they could not hide, so what would they tell the world about their myth of sahabis-stars-follow-jannah.

and hence they made up this mushriq story

just like ibn saba the jew founder of shiaism story.

your proof that abu looney was a muslim is that he killed Umar (ra) in the nabis mosque?

thats rich. didnt someone else (shii )already post on this guy that he wasnt consdierd muslim even by shii?

if someone enters a mosque they must be muslim lol

correct me if i am wrong but he spoke with Umar (ra) about unfair pay or some money that was owed to him and he didnt get the decision he liked

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your proof that abu looney was a muslim is that he killed Umar (ra) in the nabis mosque?

thats rich. didnt someone else (shii )already post on this guy that he wasnt consdierd muslim even by shii?

if someone enters a mosque they must be muslim lol

correct me if i am wrong but he spoke with Umar (ra) about unfair pay or some money that was owed to him and he didnt get the decision he liked

interesting question thou bro- do you see umar as "shahid"? if he was killed over a dispute about money? or was he just murdered?

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ok bro if ur gonna be like that let me reword it

according to the sunni view of what constitutes a "shaheed"- does someone killed over a dispute over MONEY count as a "shaheed"?

yes or no will do fine as answers

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sister i dont think we can make it clear cut on definition who a shaheed is merely on the intentions of the killer.

example.

we can not consider Hamzah (ra) a shaeed because his killer killed him soley for monetary gain.

you see how tricky this can get?

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sister i dont think we can make it clear cut on definition who a shaheed is merely on the intentions of the killer.

example.

we can not consider Hamzah (ra) a shaeed because his killer killed him soley for monetary gain.

you see how tricky this can get?

my bro

the holy prophet (pbuh) calling janabe hamza(ra) a shaheed is enough and final and binding

now you see how tricky it can get when one goes about things without enough knowledge.

questions my bro are fine but do not form opinions on half baked knowledge.

that is why the holy prophet (pbuh) left us with the holy quran and his holy itra(as).

don't need to run here and there for it is confusion, just stay with the recommended criteria, for it is the purest sunnah you could get.

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example.

we can not consider Hamzah (ra) a shaeed because his killer killed him soley for monetary gain.

you see how tricky this can get?

he was murdered and mutilated by an enemy of islam during a jihad, and the prophet (pbuh) HIMSELF called him a shaheeh. dont sunnis think thats clear cut shaheed? :wacko:

i read somewhere that sunnis believe if you die by choking on food that makes you shahid, is that true???

choking on food makes u a shahid but dying for the cause of islam doesnt? thank god im a shia

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lol you 2 are trying to accuse me of not calling the beloved uncle a shaeed.

thats rich but not surprising.

the question posted to me is considering abu looney killed over disagreement of money does that make Umar (ra) not a shaeed?

as I stated that if we go SOLEY by intent of the murderer we cannot consider his shaeed.

however that being said there is nothing to say there were not EXTRA motives for looney to kill Umar (ra) as his persian empire was brought to its knees. one can logically assume that money just drove him over the top for his hatred for the Muslim leader and thus assassinated him. that is guessing on my part but it seems reasonable.

also since you guys brought this up is Imam Hassan (ra) considerd a shaheed if he was murdered by his wife looking for worldy gain?

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bro...on whose command did maula hassan (as) wife follow to poison him? it was MUAWIYYAHS

the difference between our imams and ur leaders is that our maulas were ALL (with the exception of al mahdi) martyred trying their best to SAVE islam...from UNJUST rulers...ie they were martyred for the SAKE OF ISLAM....i.e. SHAHEED

look at ANY imam...they dedicated their lives to maintaining the religion of the prophet, and were martyred mostly by the leaders who realised that they were a threat to the leaders corrupt rule

compare that with umar- killed cos he owed someone some money.

which one do u think is the REAL shahid?

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