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Istihadah


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#1 sara85

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 12:23 AM

salam,
can someone plz tell me that is istihadah only for married women only n virgin unmarried girls only get menses n no istihadah.....like this is wat i have recieved fomr his highness agha khameneis office regarding istihadah



13. If a woman does not know what kind of istihadah she has, it is based on obligatory precaution that when she wants to pray she should insert into her vagina some cotton and wait for a while to ascertain. And when she knows which kind of istihadah it is, she would follow the rules prescribed. And, if she is sure that the type of istihadah will not change by the time she stands for her prayers, she can also carry out the test before the time for prayers sets in.


like how would a virgin girl put something inside her vagina..it is not open n so how cna she bo having isithadah then

#2 sara85

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 01:09 AM

but wat bot having istihadah

#3 shukranlillah

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 01:13 AM

^ Sis what is your question? Is it how can a virgin woman has istihaza or how can she put something inside?

Both are possible.

Edit: Okay I've got ur question. you've asked for both.

Edited by shukranlillah, 19 April 2007 - 01:23 AM.


#4 shukranlillah

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 01:20 AM

A virgin girl can experience some type of discharge other than haez. Sometimes its characteristics are likely of menses and sometimes it is of other color and other characteristics. It is nothing to do with virginity!! It is a sickness!

Plz check the rulings here:

http://www.al-shia.c.../tahrir/06.html

Here plz scroll down to to get the following heading and paragraph. All the rules are afterwards.

Rules Concerning Undue Menses (Istihadah)

Here is a discussion about the blood of undue menses (Istihädah) and its rules.

The blood of the undue menses (Istihadah) is mostly of yellow color, cool, thin and comes out without force, burning or pain. (Sometimes) it possesses the characteristics of menstrual blood, as mentioned before. There is no limit for its minimum or maximum amount. Every blood that a woman sees before her puberty, after her menopause, or in less than three days, provided that it is not the blood of an abscess or wound or puerperal period, it shall be the blood of Istihadha, though there is difficulty in its generality. The same is the case, according to the more cautious opinion, if it is not known to be of an abscess or wound when the woman has neither an abscess nor a wound. The same is the case if the bleeding (of menses) exceeds ten days. In such case, however, as the menstrual blood mixes up with that of Istihadah, therefore it is indispensable for its determination to adopt the method mentioned under (the Chapter on) Menstruation. As regards the rules of Istihãdah, it has three kinds: Minor Medium and Abundant.



Fee Amanillah.

#5 sara85

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 02:19 AM

wat im actually asking here is that...the normal white liquid that comes out other then ur menses days wat is that....is it najis n u need ghusl for it or just change n do ur wajibats....sometimes it is just little n sometimes it is a flow like u can clean it with ur hands....what is that white flow that u get..is it najis or just change n ur clean....cuz hardly there is a week during ur menses period that ur actually clean having no flow out of ur private part...



and apart form tampoon u have to know where ur vagina is n frankly speaking i really dunt know as we r not supposeed to discuss such matters n hushed when asked bot it....even bot tampoons it is told to us that it is for girls who r married

#6 shukranlillah

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:23 AM

^ sis I am sure what u r talking about is not istihaza and thus not najis.

Sis I had a detail book on the rulings of Rahbar Khamenei (ha) in which these female things are described. Unfortunately it is not on my hand! Sis give me 2-3 days time and I'll let you know the ruling on that according to Rahbar.

Actually I was very lucky to have this book cuz its contents are not online. I'll translate some of those in English and let you know inshaAllah.

Iltemase Dua.
Fee Amanillah.

Edited by shukranlillah, 19 April 2007 - 04:56 AM.


#7 shukranlillah

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 04:35 AM

Sister if it were the istehazah (less probability) then I think it is kind of minor discharge, isn't it?

So,

The First category, namely, the Minor Istihãdah, is when its blood soils the cotton from one side but does not pierce into it and appear from the other side. Its rule includes the obligation of ablution for each prayer, and washing the apparent part of the female organ (vulva), if soiled. It is more cautious to change the cotton or clean it.


But as far as I can remember the book says that these type of white and colorless discharges are normal and not najis. I will confirm it, inshaAllah.

So u don't need to be so much anxious about it. I'll study after I'd have the book inshaAllah and let you know about the characteristics.

Edited by shukranlillah, 19 April 2007 - 04:36 AM.


#8 strawberry

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 08:57 AM

salam,
can someone plz tell me that is istihadah only for married women only n virgin unmarried girls only get menses n no istihadah.....like this is wat i have recieved fomr his highness agha khameneis office regarding istihadah
13. If a woman does not know what kind of istihadah she has, it is based on obligatory precaution that when she wants to pray she should insert into her vagina some cotton and wait for a while to ascertain. And when she knows which kind of istihadah it is, she would follow the rules prescribed. And, if she is sure that the type of istihadah will not change by the time she stands for her prayers, she can also carry out the test before the time for prayers sets in.
like how would a virgin girl put something inside her vagina..it is not open n so how cna she bo having isithadah then


Istihadha is possible for virgin girls. It used to happen to me in the beginning. It would last longer than 10 days and according to my mother, this was istihadha, which means I will pray but with ghusl before each prayer (or wudhu depending on the type)

#9 MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 09:08 AM

Can we stop acting like Ayesha: She showed how to do ghusl to males. (Bukhari)

Its a girls problem so leave it to them guys. There are a lot of sisters who can handle this better than you.

Edited by MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT, 19 April 2007 - 09:08 AM.


#10 strawberry

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 09:11 AM

^I don't know of any brothers posting on here. Who is your post directed to?

#11 BintAlHoda

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 03:56 PM

somehow i have a feeling all the brothers fled

#12 Cary Grant

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 05:11 PM

sara85 youve pretty much told us that you need to know more about your own biology. What I can quickly tell you, which others dont seem to have already said: The white discharge is normal, it is not najis and does not need ghusl, or redoing of wudhu, it does not even need to be cleaned before you pray. It would be coming from your vagina, the same place that istihadha blood and haidh blood would exit from.

As far as inserting things into your vagina as to ascertain if it is your haidh or istihadha, I strongly suggest you first learn what is haidh and what is istihadha, more about your own period cycles, where your vagina is, and where your hymen is before you even think of doing such a thing.

Haidh is your normal period, which can consist of 3-10 days, and in fiqh's eyes it must be 10 days after your last period. Now female bodies do not always behave by the strict laws of fiqh. Its important to know that and not get stressed about it, but simple cool headedly reason what qualifies as haidh and what qualifies as istihadha.

Isitihadha is any blood (other than nifas) that you see outside of the time period of your haidh. The complicating factor is when your periods become irregular. However when they are regular, it is easy to figure out which is your haidh and which is istihadha. Haidh is usually more in volume, and appears to be pinkish red (anywhere from pink->red->dark red->very dark red so that it appears black). Like fresher blood. But sometimes it can appear black or brown too. Istihadha is usually much less in volume (often commonly referred to as spotting). Istihadha also, usually but not always, does not have that red fresh blood look. Another factor is that istihadha blood will usually come at a time when youre not expecting your period.

Young women usually do not have istihadha. This is something older women are more prone to. Nevertheless, it does sometimes occur in younger women, particularly if their periods have shown irregularity for any number of reasons. I personally do not suggest you insert anything into your vagina to check if its istihadha or haidh, especially for someone who does not understand their own biology and cycles. You really need to first know your normal cycle, its timing and the length of time it usually lasts and the appearance of your haidh blood you should know if the blood is haidh or istihadha.

Ideally what you insert in your body should be very clean if not sterile, because you will be in contact with cells which do not have a protective layer of skin.

i will have to look for suitable biology pages that explain the female reproductive system and its different discharges. until i come up with one, i suggest you go to your school/university library and get an anatomy/biology book preferably with drawn and real pictures so that you can have some idea of hte exact anatomy of your reproductive system.

If you are not having regular periods (haidh) i would suggest you see your doctor. Perhaps see a female doctor so you feel most comfortable. This way you can address any problem that you might have, and you can also get a basic lesson in reproductive biology from your doctor.

Edited by Cary Grant, 19 April 2007 - 08:47 PM.


#13 Cary Grant

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 05:20 PM

A virgin girl can use a tampon without breaking her hymen.


She can break her hymen with a tampon if she directs the tampon right at the point (usually edge) where the hymen is. And from the sounds of it her culture like many of those who are muslims place a lot of importance on the hymen being intact. She can easily avoid the hymen if she knows the shape and position of her hymen. I really wouldnt suggest that she go out and buy a pack of tampons for this istihadha test though, especially since she doesnt know her own body and its cycles and she has been told tampons are for married girls.

oh lord i forget to tell sara85 that sometimes some girls do not have a hymen!

sara85 really dont worry about having to place anything into your vagina to check the type of istihadha you have. If you do believe youre having istihadha (ie your periods are not regular) go see your doctor, preferrably a female one. Explain to them the haidh and istihadha characteristics according to fiqh (if they arent muslim) and ask them to explain it to you in terms of biology and your own cycle.

#14 Cary Grant

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 06:33 PM

oh and just quickly i realised i missed a question you asked:

yes unmarried women can get istihadha. it has nothing to do with virginity. it has more to do with the irregularity in your periods. or rather bleeding between periods.

#15 Cary Grant

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 08:31 PM

lol thank you sister smiley :blush:

ok sara85 and any of you who want to know the very basics about menstruation and the female reproductive system i have attached a word document hastily put together from about 3 different patient handouts which doctors (mostly in the states) may give their patients. The first part of the document is really directed at patients who are considered to be children not adults. It covers, very basically, the menstrual cycle, late and missed periods, and vaginal discharges. It also has some VERY basic diagrams (on page 6) of the female reproductive system, but it really is not in my opinion good enough for you to accurately define the parts of your reproductive system yourself. I still suggest going to the library and picking out a good anatomy book. You will also need a small mirror to be able to see that part of your body properly at least for the first time/s.

I just wanted to highlight one part of the attached doc:

Keep a calendar of when your periods occur and how long they last. This information can help your doctor make a correct diagnosis. Take it to your appointment.


I also want to correct myself somewhat. I said that istihadha was not common in young women, i still believe this to be true, but the fact that many young women have irregular periods when they start menstruating (first couple of years) and these may under fiqh be defined as istihadha. I was assuming that you didnt fit this profile (was taking 85 in your user name to be the year of your birth).

Im sorry that I wasnt able to find something better than the document attached, it isnt really the best information for the purposes here, but it was the best thing I could think of using.

i wasnt able to find one that deals with spotting (which i would define as istihadha). Will attach one when i come across it.

i think if youre spotting its best to just see your doctor and question them about it. But be sure to take your menstrual or rather "bleeding/discharge/any sensation or change down there" diary with you. It isnt something to worry about just good practice to in the very least make mental notes of what is happening to your body.

Attached Files


Edited by Cary Grant, 20 April 2007 - 01:25 AM.


#16 sara85

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 12:27 AM

thank you sister.....really thanks alot

i have my cycle very regularly never had problems with it.....so i assume in out of that istihadah phase of it....
the thing that was confusing me was that in the journal of fatwas it was written that it is a yellowish liquid and so i assumed the other fluid flow i have was istihadah :blush: .....n at some places they have written it is a spot of blood os i was confused :donno:

my cycles r at the gap of 25 to 28 days n last for 10 days straight

but i would like u to confirm to me one more thing.....



before n after my periods i get that other fluid flow at very much extend althoguh i assume now that it is not istihadah cuz it is not with blood n it is just a plain see thorugh white fluid but wat should i do with it..also at times when my back aches cuz my periods r near the flow increases....n my period duration is not all blood all 10 days it like in the beginning the flow is high n red but by the end of it it turns brown n less....so i assume that tooo has nothing to do with istihadah


plz do answer me again on these queries so i can have my peace of mind

n sorry for questioning so bluntly with not so decent description of things cuz i could not afford to be shy n not get full information bot wat was bothering me for like so many years :)

#17 Cary Grant

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 01:20 AM

glad you found it of some help.

n my period duration is not all blood all 10 days it like in the beginning the flow is high n red but by the end of it it turns brown n less....so i assume that tooo has nothing to do with istihadah


To my understanding since you are regular, all those 10 days are all counted as haidh up until the time you dont see traces of blood anymore, even if it appears to be brown and less in flow.

in the journal of fatwas it was written that it is a yellowish liquid


Yeah they may have yellow written there for istihadha because when vaginal discharge has a small amount of blood in it, it may appear yellowish. The yellowish kind isnt a problem anyway, thats qalil. If you do ever experience something like that, you can simply wash yourself, change your underwear and renew or make your wudhu for just before your prayer. You do not need to renew the wudu if time passes (and you dont break your wudhu in other ways,) if you do not see the same distinct yellow-brown discharge of qalil istihadha.

before n after my periods i get that other fluid flow at very much extend althoguh i assume now that it is not istihadah cuz it is not with blood n it is just a plain see thorugh white fluid but wat should i do with it


just wash it away as you normally wash yourself when you go to the toilet, ie only wash the exterior of your genitalia, do not force water into your body. and simply change your underwear regularly for personal hygiene. you can pray with that discharge there on your underwear or on your genitalia.

If you become familiar with your regular cycle and what your discharge is like at different times of your cycle, you will have an idea for what is normal and abnormal for you. An outline for signs of abnormality is given in the document attached to my previous post.

___


i would just like to state that if anyone does find fault in what i have said to say so. The fiqh of haidh and istihadha can be confusing and tricky. I personally try to keep it simple in light of what I know about the menstrual cycle.

#18 Zeynab-europe

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:43 AM

Sara, I don't really understand how you can't even know where your vagina is. You did have biology class in school, right? You do have a clue as to where your menstrual blood exits your body, right? You really need to get to know your body girl. If you're not in touch with your biology, you won't be able to recognize the signals it sends you, for example when something's wrong. (like these girls that suddenly pop out a healthy child, who simply thought they were gaining weight and took the baby's kicking for bowel movement)

As for the whitish/yellowish fluids coming out: your vagina is an open connection between your inside body and the outside world. That means it needs a defense system, and a way to keep the tissue of the vaginal wall, that doesn't have the protective layer your skin has, hydrated. Therefore mucus glands in the cervix (the entry of your uterus, to be found at the top of your vagina) secrete this mucus: a chemical barrier for bacteriae (as its pH is not liked by most bacteriae) and a slime layer to keep the tissue healthy. It's also believed that the many superficial blood vessels in the vaginal wall may secrete fluid too. (which is also believed to be the cause of a woman getting "wet" upon sexual arousal) Influenced by hormones and external factors, it can be more, or less. It's normal. If it becomes really much, or get a brownish color or a nasty smell, go see your doctor as you may have an infection.

For the practical advise: if you use pantyliners, you don't need to change your undies every time you've lost some discharge.

You say "the vagina of a virgin girl is not open"... so how do you suggest you can lose menstrual blood when your vagina is sealed off? Where do you live, where did you go to school, who gave you "the talk"? The total lack of information you suffer is just uncomprehensible!

Edited by Zeynab-europe, 21 April 2007 - 07:46 AM.


#19 Cary Grant

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 04:01 PM

Thanks Zeynab for that very terse yet very informative bit about the vagina.

I do agree that she did have far less information about her biology than she should have had and I believe she realised this herself and quite frankly am relieved that she asked about it. But I dont think you realise that what you are taught in passing in a biology class is hardly going to educate you about what the vagina actually looks like to you, or how you can find it yourself without the aid of a mirror. The vagina is afterall positioned in a place that we cannot see without the aid of a mirror.

If you are taught (through culture) that unmarried girls have a membrane that is like a seal that is popped/torn when she gets married, youre going to have the misconceptions that girls like sara have. Many simply do not know that the hymen has many shapes and usually does not take up most or all of the opening of the vagina - ie that it is not a pardeh (and i swear they use this word in farsi which means curtain,barrier). They do not know that if you did have a hymen that was not perforated in some way, you would have to be rushed to ER on your first period.

So in my mind it would be natural, under such circumstances, that they would think there is some sort of barrier there. They do not know that it can simply be a slither of tissue on the side of the opening of the vagina. Or that it may simply not be there. No classes in biology or personal development teach you that - at least not here in australia, or any basic biology textbook ive seen, or any farsi biology book. the hymen is of no importance in western countries and is often left out when basic anatomy is taught. I dont think its covered any much better in the eastern countries either. The hymen afterall has negligable significance in biology or sex, so why would it be taught?

The unfortunate importance that is placed on the hymen in many cultures will undoubtedly discourage young women (and their mothers will undoubtedly teach them this), from trying to explore that part of their body by poking and proding, or even getting a mirror and having a look. In some cultures they consider it immodest to even look at yourself naked in the mirror. Or rather Id have to say some people are just brought up like that.

So she will menstruate, but she will not see exactly where it is coming from, the same goes for all the other discharges, unless she studies the anatomy in detail, takes particular notice, and uses a mirror.

Besides not everyone pays attention in biology to details as would a person who goes on to study science or medicine. A diagram in a text book looks very different to the flesh.

I agree with your sentiments and I cannot say I wasnt alarmed, but I am slightly surprised that you havent already encountered this in your profession and your lack of knowledge of many cultures or lets simply put it down to ways of thinking. I've grown up in Australia, and i can see how someone who would have actually gone to personal development classes, and biology to have these misconceptions easily. The problem is that the subject probably had an element of taboo, and I imagine she like many others would have felt shy to ask about it in real life (as opposed to the cyber world) or even look into it herself. I really applaud her for correctly identifying where her ignorance lay and asking, somwhat anonymously, for help.

I do agree it really is essential that men and women learn at least some aspects of their biology. But i think i would be safe in saying that the majority would be ignorant of some important facts. That does not excuse them however of not going after that knowledge.

Edited by Cary Grant, 21 April 2007 - 05:21 PM.


#20 Cary Grant

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 05:22 PM

just wanted to add, that because of the VERY incorrect importance placed on the hymen as evidence of a girls chastity and virginity, tampons are not used by unmarried girls in those circles where this belief is held. so this would explain why they never find the need to know where their vagina is. Though this way of thinking is very probably extremely damaging, i would not encourage a young girl to go against the culture (ie happily use a tampon without knowing where and what shape her hymen was or even if she has a hymen which is visible), rather I would attempt to educate her about the facts and encourage males to go against this extremely ill informed culture. Afterall it is the males who after/before consumating the marriage must realise that the hymen is not evidence of his wife's chastity or virginity, and be informed that a virgin wife does not always and really should not bleed to an extent that is seen clearly on a cloth. even if the hymen is broken by sexual intercourse (which often doesnt happen due to the elasticity of the tissue) the bleeding would be little since the tissue has few blood vessels in it.

#21 Cary Grant

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 11:52 PM

this thread was brought up in the chat room and the things which were being said about the hymen was of some interest it seemed. So i thought i would place a link to a post i made some time ago regarding misconceptions about the hymen, and some facts found by scientific/medical research as well as a hadith from Imam Ali (as) regarding the horrid practise of judging women's chastity on the basis of their hymen/bleeding after the supposed first time of sexual intercourse.


http://www.shiachat....=...t&p=1179823

#22 sara85

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 01:46 AM

thankyou all for ur answers...


sister zaynab i was a pre medical student in Olevels but the reprodustive system was not thought to us in such a manneer that we should be able to figure out where r vagina is.....n apart form that it is coonsideered very bad if a girl asks bot such things to any body....
to the extedn that like sister cary said we r told it is a sin to look at ur self in the mirror naked....

i remember once i slipped with my legs apart in college n when i reached home i had blood spottings on my panties i told my mom n she was so worried that wat have u done n stuff n when i said i wanted to go to a gynae cuz i was scared myself she was like n o need to go there u r just hurt n she gave me soem home made medicine n it worked...like it was true that i was just hurt nothing was serious but just that going to a gynea is even not considered good for young girls....it is just the custom nothing else....although we r very frank with r mom but just that she doesnt tlka much bot such stuff to us n so we never happen to notice anything....

kindly sister zaynab and cary if u can help me with some notes or links to locate myself plz mail me dunt write it on the post its embarassing we have guys here as well...

thank you once more to both of u



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