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baqar

Tragedy Of Karbala For Jewish/Christian Friends

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The uprising in India was met with one of the most stiff, violent crackdowns in history. The British added many more massacres to their resume. Look it up.

 

The very fact that European nations just walked into half of Asia and the whole of Africa and North and South America, blazing their guns and flashing their Bibles,  tells us of their character. 

 

In India, the British killed, captured or exiled anyone and everyone who came in their path. 

 

The King of India, the last Moghul, King Bahadur Shah Zafar was captured and exiled to Burma.

 

The  ruler of Oudh (which the British later renamed the United Provinces) was exiled to Bengal.

 

Many other rulers of princely states were murdered.

 

The valiant Rani of Jhansi was killed in battle.

 

And when they had control of India, the Brits started wooing the remaining Rajas and Nabobs and gave them titles and awards to keep them happy.

 

Here is the story of one just massacre by the British.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre

 

 

The success of peaceful protest has nothing to do with the nonsensical factors you have made up in your brilliant mind. It depends simply on the direction of that society. If the entirety of a society, or the majority of a society, or a powerful group of people within a society, embrace a certain change, then a peaceful movement can bring about that change.

 

In countries where they could not establish full control, they meddled in the affairs of the people  as best as they could.

 

They succeeded in Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan,and Palestine.  

 

But they failed in Afghanistan.

 

They created a king in Iraq and a king in Jordan in the early part of the last century.

 

It is easier to manipulate the direction of a country through kings who will obey you.

 

That was British policy for 200-300 years.

 

And that is exactly what the US is doing today.

 

The US knows how oppressive, repressive and intolerant Saudi Arabia is of Shias and other minorities.

 

Yest the US has been pampering Saudi Arabia just because it satisfies its own designs in hegemony of the world.

 

They reinstated the Shah of Iran in 1953.

 

And they were greatly upset when the revolution toppled the Shah in 1979.
 
Unfortunately, some people live in a dream world of their own, where whites are better than all non-whites, the West is better than everything outside the West and everything  that Muslims do is bad.
 
They forget what Jesus  told them - 'First remove the beam from your own eyes before you point to the speck in others'. 

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The uprising in India was met with one of the most stiff, violent crackdowns in history. The British added many more massacres to their resume. Look it up.

 

Martin Luther King Jr. didn't live in slavery times. But his fight for black people's civil rights ended with him getting shot.

 

The point is that the protestors for change did not themselves resort to violence and in the end they did win...

the British left... the cause of Martin Luther King Jr. did win.

Governments made accommodation for the voice of the people.

 

I don't know what "peaceful resistance" you are referring to in Syria and Ukraine? Care to enlighten us?

 

Syria...

At first, people were surprised, but above all shocked that their government would fire on peaceful protesters in Deraa. Every day, the death toll increased and in reaction more people took to the street.

The movement started as protests calling for more freedom and dignity. The way the government handled the events since those first days drove more and more people to oppose President Bashar al-Assad.

At first, no-one was calling for the regime to fall. Many people had hopes that the young president would respond to their calls and punish those of the security forces who killed innocent civilians.

But the wave of killings and arrests, torture and humiliation targeting people who were not even involved in the demonstrations drove many who steered clear of politics to join the protest movement.

Voices silenced

Today, government shelling has silenced the voices of peaceful protest. Demonstrators are no longer giving roses to soldiers and security men chanting: "One, one, one, the Syrian people are one."

Ghaith Matar, the activist who initiated the practice of handing a rose and a bottle of water to troops, was found murdered in Daryya in mid-2011.

 

No more men and women are dancing in public squares to the sound of freedom songs made popular by Ibrahim al-Qashoush, who composed "Go, Go Bashar" in Hama.

He too was killed and dumped in a river, his throat cut and his vocal cords removed.

No protesters in Damascus throw rubber balls with the word "freedom" written on them to bounce about outside the president's home.

No more jokes about the plot to implant aubergines from Homs with bombs or sticks symbolising the Kalashnikovs that protesters were, according to the reports on government TV, meant to be carrying.

There are real Kalashnikovs and bombs now. What started as a peaceful call for freedom soon turned into violence, armed confrontation and eventually civil war.

 

 

http://www.albawaba.com/news/syria-revolution-peace-522074

"In 2012, various civil society and nonviolent resistance groups emerged, and began voicing their opinions on events in Syria"

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/world/middleeast/at-least-six-protesters-killed-in-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

report from 2011

The longer President Bashar al-Assad remains in power, the more violent the country will become, even if no one knows what will follow him if he is ousted from power. Propelled by frustration, the opposition’s resorting to arms would probably serve the interests of the government, adding validity to its otherwise specious contention that it faces an armed insurgency financed from abroad and driven by the most militant Islamists.

(guess they called it right)

 

 

Ukraine...

"Massive peaceful protests in Ukraine began on November 23, as an exercise in the freedom of speech. One week later the Yanukovych regime ordered police to beat protesters."

Edited by CLynn

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Dear All

 

This thread is about Karbala.

 

Could we please discuss politics in another thread?

 

Thank you kindly.

 

One effect of Karbala was its impact on our political discourse, even today.  The conversation is talking about peaceful vs non-peaceful revolutions in our world, of which Karbala is the aspired gold standard. 

 

This title is about discussing this incident with other faith groups in the context of our common political destiny.  What's wrong with that?

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One effect of Karbala was its impact on our political discourse, even today.  The conversation is talking about peaceful vs non-peaceful revolutions in our world, of which Karbala is the aspired gold standard. 

 

This title is about discussing this incident with other faith groups in the context of our common political destiny.  What's wrong with that?

 

Greetings magma,

 

I've read about Karbala many times.  Did Karbala end in victory?  That has never been my impression.

Yes, it is an example of peaceful resistance, but I am missing what happened after Karbala.

 

Shukran und salaam.

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Hello Baqar,

 

The post was long but I don't mind. I wish there were maps in the post.

 

This quote reminds me of the Islamic State:

"The offers were, of course, refused. The response - 'Either accept Yazid as your master or suffer death'."

 

This made me cry:
"Hostilities resumed the next morning. That was on the 10th of Moharram, Islam's great day of shame. On this day, the grandson of the founder of the faith would be slaughtered along with 18 members of his close relatives, and 50 or more of the faithful."

 

Could this be called the first civil war in Islam?

 

Tragically, Gentile Catholics and Gentile Protestants killed each other as well as Non-Christians, both disobeying Jesus Christ's commands to love. They did not follow the example of the apostles of Jesus, who were Jewish, who walked and talked with him. The apostles of Jesus did not kill anybody but rather simply told people about Jesus Christ.

 

This made me cry more:   :(

"By early afternoon, there was hardly anyone left on Imam Husain's side - a count of three included a six month old baby son, an older son, 24 - bedridden with fever, and the Imam himself. The baby son was called Ali Asghar. The child, like the adults, had not had a drop of water for over three days. Imam Husain decided to take the baby to the forward fence to ask for water for the child. Some among the enemy were moved to see the baby’s parched lips. The army commander sensed the danger - the baby’s innocent face could lead to a betrayal. He quickly commissioned a sharp shooter called Hurmula to take aim. The first two arrows missed. The third struck the baby in the throat. It would be difficult for anyone to describe or even perceive what would have gone through the distraught father's heart. Imam Husain had taken the child from the apprehensive mother, who must now be told that the child had been killed, with his throat still dry. The Imam dug a small hole in the ground with his sword and buried the child. A short while later, it will be his turn. He would go to fight, and despite the thirst, the hunger and the mountain of grief, like the rest of his men, he would fight valiantly and die."

 

:( :( :( I don't understand how people can torture chilren with hunger/thrist and kill children.

I am not happy at my own government for killing children in other countries. That is unacceptable. :(

 

"One of the last things the noble Imam told his sister was : ' Sister, (after I am gone), do not pray for evil to befall the enemy'."

 

This is beautiful. I very much admre him for not wishing harm on his enemy. I wish he and his family had not been killed.

 

Do you think that those who killed him and his family were not truly Muslim?

 

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady

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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2007 at 0:29 AM, yonus said:

Christians holocost is Jesus crucifixion .

Jews holcost began in the first century .

Muslim shia holocost is tragedy of imam Hussein.

I think muslim sunnis need holocost .

They already have, all the suicide bombers around the world! LOL

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On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 8:17 AM, Christianlady said:

Hello Baqar,

 

The post was long but I don't mind. I wish there were maps in the post.

 

This quote reminds me of the Islamic State:

"The offers were, of course, refused. The response - 'Either accept Yazid as your master or suffer death'."

 

This made me cry:
"Hostilities resumed the next morning. That was on the 10th of Moharram, Islam's great day of shame. On this day, the grandson of the founder of the faith would be slaughtered along with 18 members of his close relatives, and 50 or more of the faithful."

 

Could this be called the first civil war in Islam?

 

Tragically, Gentile Catholics and Gentile Protestants killed each other as well as Non-Christians, both disobeying Jesus Christ's commands to love. They did not follow the example of the apostles of Jesus, who were Jewish, who walked and talked with him. The apostles of Jesus did not kill anybody but rather simply told people about Jesus Christ.

 

This made me cry more:   :(

"By early afternoon, there was hardly anyone left on Imam Husain's side - a count of three included a six month old baby son, an older son, 24 - bedridden with fever, and the Imam himself. The baby son was called Ali Asghar. The child, like the adults, had not had a drop of water for over three days. Imam Husain decided to take the baby to the forward fence to ask for water for the child. Some among the enemy were moved to see the baby’s parched lips. The army commander sensed the danger - the baby’s innocent face could lead to a betrayal. He quickly commissioned a sharp shooter called Hurmula to take aim. The first two arrows missed. The third struck the baby in the throat. It would be difficult for anyone to describe or even perceive what would have gone through the distraught father's heart. Imam Husain had taken the child from the apprehensive mother, who must now be told that the child had been killed, with his throat still dry. The Imam dug a small hole in the ground with his sword and buried the child. A short while later, it will be his turn. He would go to fight, and despite the thirst, the hunger and the mountain of grief, like the rest of his men, he would fight valiantly and die."

 

:(:(:( I don't understand how people can torture chilren with hunger/thrist and kill children.

I am not happy at my own government for killing children in other countries. That is unacceptable. :(

 

"One of the last things the noble Imam told his sister was : ' Sister, (after I am gone), do not pray for evil to befall the enemy'."

 

This is beautiful. I very much admre him for not wishing harm on his enemy. I wish he and his family had not been killed.

 

Do you think that those who killed him and his family were not truly Muslim?

 

Peace and God bless you

Salam my Christian sister. No, they were not Muslims and they are still in power till this day, they are called the Saudi royal family aka children of Yazeed, aka ISIS, AL Qaeda etc etc.  Believe me you shedding tear for our Imam Hussain a.s will help you on the day of judgment. Do you know anything about our 12th Imam, Mehdi a.s.? Mehdi means to guide, he will come very soon INSHALLAH and guide people and fight the oppressors and spread justice around the world. Muslims Jews, Christians and others will help him fight the oppressors and soon after Mehdi a.s Jesus Christ a.s, the son of Mary will reappear and help him INSHALAH, and peace will spread around the world.....

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At Yazid's palace, after the tragedy, Yazid questioned Zeinab (sa), what did you see, the sister of Emam Hossein (as) replied:

"Saw nothing except the beauty". 

 

 When God told Abraham (as) to not kill your son (use this sheep for now) because there will be a great sacrifice later. The sacrifice happened as it was promised. 

 After all that sacrifices, and what did Ahle beit say at the end of that day:

"Oh God please! Accept from us this little".

  

 What I learned from Emam Hossein (as) is not force my opinion to other people as he let the people who want to leave to leave in the night, so no one feel shy to leave.

 Also he mentioned if you do not believe in God and religion, at least believe in humanity and be fair. 

 God bless him and his companions. 

 John (as) martyred :::: Jesus (as) hidden and protected by God and will return 

 Emam Hossein (as) martyred :::: Emam Mahdi (as) hidden and protected by God and will return

 All linked.

 

 

Edited by Lighting

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i believe no one deserves to be tortured in any way shape or form, regardless of your belief, god has given everyone the free will to follow him or to not, so we are not in a position to punish any non-believers, if we have free will, but god forces us to believe in him and to love him, its conditional love and not real love, we would be like robots designed to follow the creator, but god has given us the free will to chose. and when people like isis force there hand upon certain groups like shia's or christians or what ever you may be, than we have a problem, the problem is that they are going against the free will god gave every human individual.  

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On 1/20/2007 at 4:32 AM, IMAnonymous said:

After reading this I was moved to read more about it. Most articles linked it to the division between Sunni and Shia and some use it to cast Shia in an unfavorable light. I couldn't help but notice that the historical presentations changed with every author in order to reflect and/or support his own views. I don't think I ever read the same facts twice. It made it hard for me to draw a conclusion. It seemed the hero of your story was in rebellion to the Caliph. He refused to accept him and rode against him. Religiously speaking, he had about as much chance when he rode into Karbala of being accepted as Caliph as Jesus had of being accepted as the Messiah when he rode into Jerusalem. It is a story of tragedy, despair, and hopelessness. Its the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Yet I don't understand the significance. Does the Quran call for a caliph? Did Muhammad appoint a successor? It seems the differences between Sunni and Shia are man made, particularly along tribal lines. The latter is a consistent theme dating from the third Caliph who appointed his own tribal members to governorships, governors the rest of Islam rejected for not practising the Quran (At least, that's how I read it. Again, views changed with every author.). I don't think Ali objected to the Caliph's assassination (Although he didn't initiate it either). I suspect Ali rode away from the Caliph in order to not be connected to what happened to the Caliph afterwards (Why else would Ali leave the city?) and those he left behind who assassinated the Caliph did so to make Ali the next Caliph - And it worked.

Now no insult is intended by me towards Ali. He seemed to me to be the best man for the job from day one. Yet somehow, for the #2 choice, he ended up fourth in line. When he left the city I expect he was thinking that maybe this was God's will. If so, then he would have to also believe that it was God's will that he be assassinated next - Which he was. Yet he failed to appoint one of his sons Caliph to replace himself. He too was unable to establish tribal heritage as the deciding factor of who became the next Caliph. Had he succeeded, the descendents of Muhammad would have been royalty versus elected popes.

All chance of a royal lineage from Muhammad ended with the Battle of Karbala. Is this what the Shia lament?

Again, I'm not critical. I'm just curious. I spent a couple of hours reading up on this and got no two viewpoints the same. I suppose I could have kept on reading a couple of more hours but it's getting late and I'm giving up. What I did learn is that Muslim historians seem to suffer from the same problems as Christian and Jewish historians. Ultimately, history is whatever the recorder wants it to be.

Anyway, here are the questions I did not find answers for:

1) Why should there be a Caliph?

2) Why should he be a descendent of Muhammad's?

3) Did not Ali accept the first three Caliphs? How is that explained?

Educate me. It's not a challenge (except to my stupidity). I figure you can tell me faster than I can look it up.

1)Caliphate is a political term, Imam is preferred, a religious rank given by God  (such as prophet, messenger). Because we need someone as a reference to understand how the religion works and get closer to God, someone chosen by God only and a prophet. There needs to be a system so the world does not look at the Middle East currently.

2)They weren't chosen because of blood line. They were chosen Because God wanted them to be chosen hence why the prophet chose Imam Ali a.s. who chose his Eldest son Imam Hassan a.s. etc..., Why? they are the only ones who fit the criteria and can bare what we can not such as temptations. They are the most pure, uphold the highest standards of manners, knowledge, bravery, honesty, religious practices, etc...

3)He did not accept their "Caliphate". Read the Sermon of Al Shaqshaqya (ألخطبة ألشقسقية) by Imam Ali a.s.

Edited by Hameedeh
Member asked to edit.

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