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What's the difference between Deobandi & Wahhabi/Salafi?


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#1 Blueline

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 04:55 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)

Hello, I'm relatively new as a member here, although I've been lurking for awhile. My aplogies if this has been discussed before or if there would be a better place for the question.

Anyway, my question is as follows: As I understand it, the Taliban are said to be Deobandi, while Al Qaeda is Wahhabi/Salafi. But the two seem similar in aims and outlook. I understand both are extremist Sunni, but does anyone know about the actual core doctrinal difference between them? Is the difference just locational (Saudi vs. Pakistan-based schools of thought), or are there substantial philosophical differences?

Thanks in advance.

#2 umar_khan

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 05:44 AM

(bismillah)
(salam)
Hello, I'm relatively new as a member here, although I've been lurking for awhile. My aplogies if this has been discussed before or if there would be a better place for the question.
Anyway, my question is as follows: As I understand it, the Taliban are said to be Deobandi, while Al Qaeda is Wahhabi/Salafi. But the two seem similar in aims and outlook. I understand both are extremist Sunni, but does anyone know about the actual core doctrinal difference between them? Is the difference just locational (Saudi vs. Pakistan-based schools of thought), or are there substantial philosophical differences?
Thanks in advance.


(salam) bro blueline

i have addressed this question in the sunni/shia forum but since its closed at the moment i will give you a brief overview.
there is no major difference between the wahabi to the deobandi to the sunni to the salafi. all these people refer themselves to being sunni only. your question actually proves that there is no difference and youve partially answered your question in the bottom of your paragraph. these "salafi/wahabis" are based primarily in the arab land and hence they are maliki, hanbali and shafi. the deobandis are based in pakistan and india and hence are mainly hanafi.
both of these consider each other correct and they do pray behind each other etc etc etc. really the only difference is the madhab of imam is differenet. of course you can get a maliki/hanbali/shafi deobandi and hanafi salafi/wahabi.

however, pakistan is a country split in 2 thoughts, the first are the deobandis whom are ever growing and wil be the majority in the future. the other thinking is the sufi/braelvi who follow imam reza and these guys are into their zikrs and peers etc etc etc. the major difference between the brealvis and the other groups is that the brealvis believe that the prophet (pbuh) is haazir and naazir i.e he (pbuh) is everywhere around us now and can hear us from anywhere in the planet. the others (deobandi,salafi,wahabi) believe that although the prophet (pbuh) is alive in his grave throughthe command of Allah swt he (pbuh) can only hear us when we give salaam close to his grave. the brealvis also celebrate the prophet (pbuh) birthday whereas the rest dont.
however the brealvis are declining and are influenced by the deobandis and pray behind deobandis and vice versa. but there are extreme braelvis who still worship graves, and accused of doing shirk and bidah etc. still consider deobandis kaffir, who swear at the deobandi scholars and refuse to pray behind a deobandi. but alhamdillulah these extreme brealvis are decreasing at a fast rate. these extreme brealvis consider themselves sunnis and call the rest wahabis, hence the confusion. by the way the brealvis are also hanafi like the deobandis and are limited to pakistan and india.

one point i will make is that there is a misconception amongst the shia that wahabis hate the shia. i would say that whether you are wahabi,salafi,deobandi, brealvi, their view of the sahabah is the same and thus have the same view on those that curse the sahabah (ra)

i hope this answers your question. wasalaam

Edited by umar_khan, 09 October 2006 - 05:45 AM.


#3 Blueline

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 07:27 AM

(salam)

Thank you very much for your informative and helpful reply, Mr. umar_khan.

#4 umar_khan

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 04:29 PM

(salam)

i would also add that there are exterme salafis some of whom attribut features to Allah swt whilst the brealvis belive all swt is everywhere. but there were reasons why such claims were made at the time due to the situation of the muslims and their rulers.
some extreme unknowledgable salafis also do not adhere to a madhab and float across the four madhabs because they say that the sahabh (ra) were not limited to just four madhabs but prayed in many ways (which is true).but the tabeen and taba tabieen did bayah to the four madhabs and imam bukhar (ra) and imam muslim (ra) were i think shafi'is and all the other great scholars even including the scholars that the salafis adhere to such sheokh ibne taymiah and sheikh abdul wahab only followed one imam which i think was hanbali.

but like the extreme brealvis these extreme salafis are only on the fringes of the ahlus sunnah. all the mainstream salafis,wahabis,debandis,sufi/brealvis are united and pray behind each other. hence the reason why i reject the notion of wahabism and salafism as a sepearte belief to sunni islam.

by the way if you are wondering i am a pakistani sunni deobandi hanafi (if you wish to put such a label on me)

#5 Orion

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 07:11 PM

(bismillah)

(salam)

Could you also explain who are the "Ahly Hadith" and "Tablighi Jamaat" people?

Thanks,

WS

Edited by Orion, 09 October 2006 - 07:17 PM.


#6 umar_khan

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 07:08 AM

(bismillah)
(salam)
Could you also explain who are the "Ahly Hadith" and "Tablighi Jamaat" people?
Thanks,
WS


(salam)

i will try my best to explain in simple terms.

the ahli hadeeth you can say are the pakistan equivalent of the salafi. in pakistan they use the term ahli hadeeth instead of salafus salih (salafi). the ahli hadeeth like the salafis follow the hadiths only hence they are called peple of hadiths are very quick to use the term bidah on those not acting in accordance to the hadith. the ahli hadeeths or salafis in pakistan are few in number.
one difference between the salafis in the arab land and the salafis/ahli hadeeths in pakistan is that the arab salafis follow hanbal, maliki and shafi'i and are directed by arab scholars such as sheikh bin baaz and sheikh al albani etc. the pakistani salafis are hanafis and tend to still follow deobandi but supplement this with their own research when i refferd to extreme salafis in my previous post i was referring primarily to these pakistani salafis.

for example, in your normal pakistani hanafi deobandi masjid, after each fardh the collective duaa takes place with the imam and his muqtadees (those praying behind the imam). the pakistani salafis like most of the arabs tend not to do the collective duaa as there is a question mark over whether its sunnah or preferable etc etc etc. they say that dua should be done individually.

as for tableeghi jamat (tj). they originate from pakistan and india from about 100 years ago but now they have spread across the world. the tableeghi jamatis in india and pakistan are deobandis. the tableeghi jamat is not allowed in certain arab countries and i think were banned by king fahd of saudi for political reasons. the tj focus on da wah and invite muslims towards the masjid. the tj is not a political movement so they dont talk about the world politics or politics of any sort. they da wah is based primarily on the qualities of Allah swt i.e their da wah is someting that is agreed upon by all muslims and hence they avoid any forms of argument and debate. in fact the tj only give dawah to fellow deobandis as to try to avoid arguments with the brealvis and the extreme salafis and non sunnis aswell.
the tj normally leave their homes and go out in the path of Allah to various masjids, this lenght of time could be 3 days, 40 days, 4 months (which is recomended) and even longer, some leave their homes for 2 years. if you live in a sunni deobandi area you can tell who are tj as they are regularly groups of men walking in two's, knocking at peoples houses and talking to them.
the tjs read the fadhail aamal, which contains the heroic stories of the sahabah, the virtues of praying salah, the virtues of ramadhan, the virtues of zikr. you can see that the tj talk about the fadhail (virtues) of doing a worship rather than the mas'ail (jurispendence) of doing a worship.

also the tjs only give speeches in masjids and the tjs (who are not knowledgebale) do not refer to ayahs of the quran nor hadiths from bukhari or muslim other than ones in the fadhail aamal. the tjs speeches are based on the 6 qualities of the sahabah ikraam. they say that the sahabah had many qualities in their lives but there were 6 main ones

1) imaan
2)salah
3) ilm and zikr
4) ikraame muslim (love for fellow muslims)
5) iklaasi niyah ( sincerity)
6) da wah ilalaah (going out in the path of Allah swt)

you can see that no sunnis are going to disagree with the virtues of the sahabah

the difference between the da wah of the salafis and the tjs is that the salafis focus on knowledge and for example say that if people knew how and why to worship then this would motivate people to worship. whereas the tj although recognising the knowledge is important believe that taqwah (fear of Allah swt) will motivate a person to do an act of worship.
the reason why the brealvis dont like tjs is because tjs are deobandi and the extreme salafis accuse certain aspect of the tableeghi jamat as bidah. (i dont agree with neither comments by the way)

im sorry its a bit long winded and i hope this answers your question. wasalaam
w

#7 Orion

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 08:11 AM

(bismillah)

(salam)

Nice explantion. Thanks.

If you want to ask anything about Shia beliefs please feel free.

Ramazan mubarak.

WS

#8 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 09:13 AM

Salafi and Wahaabi are different too.

#9 Aashiq e Rasul

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 04:01 PM

the major difference between the brealvis and the other groups is that the brealvis believe that the prophet (pbuh) is haazir and naazir


Without a doubt He (saw) is haazir and naazir, but your interpertation of hazir wa nazir is seriously flawed..

Taken from Sunnipath:

Authentic hadiths establish that Allah makes the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) aware of the actions of his community. Thus, it is ‘as if’ he were present through his knowing the actions of his community.

This ‘presence’ is not in the physical sense we would understand: it is beyond the limits of the human mind to understand the perfections of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) who, though human, is not like other humans: he is a precious pearl and they mere stones, as the righteous explained.

Nor is this knowledge in any way like the knowledge of Allah: Allah knows absolutely all things, as they were, are and will be, from beginningless eternality, without any acquisition. The knowledge of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is vaster than that of any other human, but is acquired (by Allah’s granting) and is not absolute.

And to claim that this a pure brelvi belief is also a lie or ignorance on your part.
Sheikh GF Haddad is not Brelvi, nor is sp staff or Shaykh Nizaam Haqqani or many (and i mean many) arab hanafis shafi'is maaliki's and hanbali's.

however the brealvis are declining and are influenced by the deobandis and pray behind deobandis and vice versa.


This is not how i see it at all.
Before, if one uttered the word Ya Rasulullah outloud while sitting or standing in their presence they would scream shirk (or if they had some akhlaq theyd give you a lecture without blurting out accusations), but now i see some of them doing it as well.

but there are extreme braelvis who still worship graves, and accused of doing shirk and bidah etc. still consider deobandis kaffir



Have you ever met these so called grave worshippers?
There are many ignorant muslims out there, but im positive that even the most ingorant ones would not associate partners with Allah (azza wa jal).

who swear at the deobandi scholars



No point out their flaws would be a nicer way to say this.
One who belittles the status of our Beloved (saw) should be exposed and Salah behind one who shares the same belief (about our Beloved (saw)) as their "Scholars" is not allowed.

brealvis belive all swt is everywhere.


Incorrect. He exists without space.
Allah (azza wa jal) is not confined to space, since space is created and our Lord ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is not.

Wassalaam wr wb

Edited by Aashiq e Rasul, 10 October 2006 - 04:14 PM.


#10 umar_khan

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 05:24 PM

Salafi and Wahaabi are different too.


wahabi is a derogartiory term. wahabis as such doesnt exist.

Without a doubt He (saw) is haazir and naazir, but your interpertation of hazir wa nazir is seriously flawed..
Taken from Sunnipath:
Authentic hadiths establish that Allah makes the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) aware of the actions of his community. Thus, it is ‘as if’ he were present through his knowing the actions of his community.
This ‘presence’ is not in the physical sense we would understand: it is beyond the limits of the human mind to understand the perfections of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) who, though human, is not like other humans: he is a precious pearl and they mere stones, as the righteous explained.
Nor is this knowledge in any way like the knowledge of Allah: Allah knows absolutely all things, as they were, are and will be, from beginningless eternality, without any acquisition. The knowledge of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is vaster than that of any other human, but is acquired (by Allah’s granting) and is not absolute.


i totally agree bro. i think you may have misunderstood my post or i have posted in a misleading manner. i dont want you to get the wrong impression


And to claim that this a pure brelvi belief is also a lie or ignorance on your part.
Sheikh GF Haddad is not Brelvi, nor is sp staff or Shaykh Nizaam Haqqani or many (and i mean many) arab hanafis shafi'is maaliki's and hanbali's.


i agree. the mere point i was making was that there are some brealvis/sufis who say ya muhammad thinking that he (pbuh) can hear them and thinking that the prophet (pbuh) is around them hence the waiting period after before the iqamah of salah.

Before, if one uttered the word Ya Rasulullah outloud while sitting or standing in their presence they would scream shirk (or if they had some akhlaq theyd give you a lecture without blurting out accusations), but now i see some of them doing it as well.


i totally agree. one must assert the intention of the sayer before screaming shirk. i said they are "accused of shirk".


Have you ever met these so called grave worshippers?


yes.i live near one of the infamous graves of a peer in pakistan. the peer baba town near swaat in pakistan. apparantly it happens in sindh and punjab aswell

There are many ignorant muslims out there, but im positive that even the most ingorant ones would not associate partners with Allah (azza wa jal).


hopefully not.


No point out their flaws would be a nicer way to say this.


no bro. calling deobandi kaffir is not pointing out flaws. there is a topic in the sunni shia forum where a berealvi scholar calls deobandi kaffir and said that janazah salah behind deobandi imam was not valid. but like i said these guys are extreme brealvis like youve got extreme salafis.
i am a deobandi and i read behind brealvis when i have to. brealvis are my brothers in islam. the rest i leave to the ulama. how can people allow these few brealvi scholars calling deobandi kaffir? dont they realise the implications of such a statement? why the disunity amongst the pakistanis and indians only

One who belittles the status of our Beloved (saw) should be exposed and Salah behind one who shares the same belief (about our Beloved (saw)) as their "Scholars" is not allowed.


one should not belittle the status of the prophet (pbuh).but no deobandi, no sunni and no shia belittles the prophet (pbuh). who are the ones who belittle the prophet (pbuh) ?

Incorrect. He exists without space. Allah (azza wa jal) is not confined to space, since space is created and our Lord ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is not.


well i was sort of saying the same thing in much simpler terms. the point i was making was that this view would differ to that of the extreme salafis.
my own personal view is based on that of imam malik (ra) that to ask a question of such about Allah swt is a biadh as the sahabah (ra) never asked such a question to the prophet (pbuh)

by the way, the posts do not represent my personal view rather i was trying to be impartial as possible. hope the misunderstandings have been cleared up. w/salaam bro aashiq e rasul

Edited by umar_khan, 10 October 2006 - 05:40 PM.


#11 god_has_99_names

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 07:25 PM

one point i will make is that there is a misconception amongst the shia that wahabis hate the shia. i would say that whether you are wahabi,salafi,deobandi, brealvi, their view of the sahabah is the same and thus have the same view on those that curse the sahabah (ra)

i hope this answers your question. wasalaam


Here's another Question, Honestly. you know that the Shia are not the Biggest fans of people you consider to be "rightly guided" and have said you guys dont like people who "curse" them, IE speak the truth about the three userpers. And you are also aware that the SUNNI / Shia Forum is closed down right now.
So why are you on SHIAchat? Just to slip in subtle slights to us as in your above post?

#12 Halo110786

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 07:55 PM

enemies of Ali (as), Muhammad (pbuh) and Shias tend to have one thing in common: Their admiration and fellowship to omar. Now, when omar had the audacity to murder Bibi Fatima (as), the prophet's daughter, then what can we expect from his followers?

#13 Aashiq e Rasul

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 11:03 PM

yes.i live near one of the infamous graves of a peer in pakistan. the peer baba town near swaat in pakistan. apparantly it happens in sindh and punjab aswell


Out of curiousity what do they do that leads you think they worship graves?


no bro. calling deobandi kaffir is not pointing out flaws. there is a topic in the sunni shia forum where a berealvi scholar calls deobandi kaffir and said that janazah salah behind deobandi imam was not valid. but like i said these guys are extreme brealvis like youve got extreme salafis.

one should not belittle the status of the prophet (pbuh).but no deobandi, no sunni and no shia belittles the prophet (pbuh). who are the ones who belittle the prophet (pbuh) ?


Once again if the deobandi Imam holds the same views that his elders of the past held than all sunni's say that Salah behind that Imam is invalid.
The reason why some "Brelvis" Sunni's read behind deobandis is because they give the Imam the benefit of the doubt i.e. he might not agree with what was said by his elders of the past

You might be asking what these statements were?

Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvi states:

* The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam) has an education like that of children, lunatics and animals of every category.' (Hifzul Imaan)

* Shaytaan has more education than our Prophet (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam).(Barahine Qatia - Khalil Ahmad Ambhetwi)

* To think of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam) in Salaat is worse than thinking of cows and donkeys. (Siraate Mustaqeem)

* The Prophet (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam) is not the only Rahmatullil
Aalameen. (Fataawa Rashidiyya)



Don't get me wrong i've read alot of Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvis work and poetry and i used to like him and his writing alot in the beginning, but after finding these quotes i lost all respect i had for him.
They were even asked to retract these statements by Imam Ahmed Raza (ra), but they refused. Maybe you can explain why after ramadhan inshallah. For now lets use our time to increase our love of Allah (saw) and his Beloved (Saw).

I'm sorry if i came of a bit harsh, i just got into it with one of the musallis at our masjid about this topic and i felt like venting.

I ask Allah (azza wa jal) for forgiveness and i request the same from you if i hurt you unintentionally.

Take care bro
Wsalaam wr wb

Edited by Aashiq e Rasul, 10 October 2006 - 11:10 PM.


#14 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 11:52 PM

SALAFI Vs. WAHAABI

Umar Khan,

Wahaabi is a negative term now. But it best describes the difference between Salaafi (who are mainly Maliki from Egypt and NON VIOLENT) and Wahaabi (who are mainly Hanbali from Saudi Arabia and VIOLENT).

There is some overlapping between Wahaabi and Salaafi but majority of those that call themselves 'Salafi' are actually Wahaabi. The term Wahaabi became a turnoff after they destroyed Jannatul Baqi (May it be restored to it's glory). So to sidestep the negative image Wahaabis started to call themselves Salaafis.

Why would Wahaabis want to be called Salaafi

Salaafis were lead by a man named Hasan al Banna. He was the founder of the Ikhwan al Muslimeen (Muslim Brotherhood) and frankly was a "Shi'a supporter" and the Shi'a supported him.

The Ikhwan al Muslimeen were like the modern day Hizbullah and Hasan Al Banna was like Hasan Nasrullah of today. They resisted against British/French invasion. And like Hizbullah, they too were popular amongst the Muslims (both Shia and Sunni).

So when Wahaabi started getting a bad rap, they tried to ride the coat tails of Ikhwan. Much like how Al-Qaeda is desparately trying to ride the wave of success of Hizbullah by trying to align themselves with Shi'a group.

Ironically, the Wahaabi-"salafi" now call Hasan al Banna a "kafir" or "a lost soul."

I really hope that one day the true Salaafi will cleanse themselves from Wahaabism and expose them as liars.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

Edited by Dhulfiqar, 10 October 2006 - 11:54 PM.


#15 umar_khan

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 10:56 AM

[quote]Here's another Question, Honestly. you know that the Shia are not the Biggest fans of people you consider to be "rightly guided" and have said you guys dont like people who "curse" them, IE speak the truth about the three userpers. And you are also aware that the SUNNI / Shia Forum is closed down right now.
So why are you on SHIAchat? Just to slip in subtle slights to us as in your above post?
[/quote]

bro i was redressing the msiconception theat some shias have on the sunnis/wahabis. theres no subtle slights.

[quote]Out of curiousity what do they do that leads you think they worship graves? [/quote]

ive seen them worshiping at the graves. before they go they dress smartley and then they pray 2 rakah and then do dua asking for the peers intercession (which cant happen as only the prophet (pbuh) can intercede). at the end they throw money at the shrine
they might aswell stay at home and do dua and say darood sharif



[quote]Once again if the deobandi Imam holds the same views that his elders of the past held than all sunni's say that Salah behind that Imam is invalid.
The reason why some "Brelvis" Sunni's read behind deobandis is because they give the Imam the benefit of the doubt i.e. he might not agree with what was said by his elders of the past
You might be asking what these statements were?
Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvi states:
* The Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam) has an education like that of children, lunatics and animals of every category.' (Hifzul Imaan)
* Shaytaan has more education than our Prophet (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam).(Barahine Qatia - Khalil Ahmad Ambhetwi)
* To think of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam) in Salaat is worse than thinking of cows and donkeys. (Siraate Mustaqeem)
* The Prophet (Sallallaahu &Aacute;layhi Wasallam) is not the only Rahmatullil
Aalameen. (Fataawa Rashidiyya)

Don't get me wrong i've read alot of Imam Ashraf Ali Thanvis work and poetry and i used to like him and his writing alot in the beginning, but after finding these quotes i lost all respect i had for him.
They were even asked to retract these statements by Imam Ahmed Raza (ra), but they refused. Maybe you can explain why after ramadhan inshallah. For now lets use our time to increase our love of Allah (saw) and his Beloved (Saw).[/quote]


i must say i will be suprised if the some of the above quotes are attributed to molana ashraf ali thanvi as i have just read his book on the life of the prophet (pbuh) and there was nothing untowards in that book. i will have to look up the quotes
the dispute between imam redha and the deobandi ulama was also about the grave worshipping, the status of saints such as sheikh abdul qadir etc etc etc.
but some deobandis accused imam redha of not being a legitamte scholar.


[quote]I'm sorry if i came of a bit harsh, i just got into it with one of the musallis at our masjid about this topic and i felt like venting.[/quote]

no bro your not venting . we just have a little disagreement here on a minor issue. thats all. that doesnt demean either of us. were still united as brothers who love Allah swt, and his prophet (pbuh) and whom uphold his (pbuh) sunnah.
the rest we leave to the ulama


[quote]I ask Allah (azza wa jal) for forgiveness and i request the same from you if i hurt you unintentionally.Take care bro
Wsalaam wr wb[quote]

no bro youve not hurt me. youve got beautiful ikhlaaq. may Allah swt forgive both of us and keep us united. w/salam bro


[/quote]Wahaabi is a negative term now. But it best describes the difference between Salaafi (who are mainly Maliki from Egypt and NON VIOLENT) and Wahaabi (who are mainly Hanbali from Saudi Arabia and VIOLENT). [quote]

incorrect. saudi is shafi then maliki then hanbali. and it i think the people you are referring to in north africa may be hanbali aswell as maliki. there is no difference between the saudis and the other arabs. i think your misinformed on this issue bro. what i would say is there is political tension between the countries mentioned but there is no religious difference

[/quote]There is some overlapping between Wahaabi and Salaafi but majority of those that call themselves 'Salafi' are actually Wahaabi. The term Wahaabi became a turnoff after they destroyed Jannatul Baqi (May it be restored to it's glory). So to sidestep the negative image Wahaabis started to call themselves Salaafis. [quote]

again incorrect.

[/quote]Why would Wahaabis want to be called Salaafi
Salaafis were lead by a man named Hasan al Banna. He was the founder of the Ikhwan al Muslimeen (Muslim Brotherhood) and frankly was a "Shi'a supporter" and the Shi'a supported him. The Ikhwan al Muslimeen were like the modern day Hizbullah and Hasan Al Banna was like Hasan Nasrullah of today. They resisted against British/French invasion. And like Hizbullah, they too were popular amongst the Muslims (both Shia and Sunni). [quote]

incorrect. the ikhwanee muslimeen are totally different to salafis. they share the same madhab as the salafis that of imam malik and imam ahmad bin hanbal rahimahullahum. the ikhwanees for example criticise the sahabah in particular usman (ra), ali (ra) and muawiyah. whereas the salafis uphold the sahabah (ra) in the highest esteem. the ikhwanees for example also refuse to pray jumah and alot of salah with jamah as there is no amirul mumineen. like you said hassan bana was their founder, other ikwanee scholrs include sayid qutb. one point i will agree with you is that like hizbullah the ikwanees accepts both sunni and shia which im sure the salafis would disapprove of

Edited by umar_khan, 11 October 2006 - 11:00 AM.


#16 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 12:02 PM

I would recommend reading an essay written by Dr. Hamid Algar, a professor at UC Berkely, on Wahaabism.
http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/188999913X

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

#17 Orion

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 12:04 PM

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother umar_khan you wrote:

ive seen them worshiping at the graves. before they go they dress smartley and then they pray 2 rakah and then do dua asking for the peers intercession (which cant happen as only the prophet can intercede). at the end they throw money at the shrine
they might aswell stay at home and do dua and say darood sharif



What you have discribed is no proof that those people were worshiping graves.

-Dressing nicely is not haram. I dress nicely before going out for shopping. Does that mean I worship the market?

-they pray 2 rakah to who? The peer or Allah. If they were offering two rakah to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì how could it be worshiping the graves?

-Regarding the dua they did for intercession you said only the Prophet (pbuh) can intercede. Howerever we know that Muslims can intercede for a dead person. Also hadith from Sunan Abu-Dawud, tell us otherwise:

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 14, Number 2516:

Narrated AbudDarda':

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The intercession of a martyr will be accepted for seventy members of his family.
--------

What if the Peer was a martyr who's intercession will be accepted?

Dont get we wrong. I am not saying that everything that happens at the Mazars is right. All the dancing, drugs etc. But waht I am saying is that one should not assume things. They may not be as they appear. Take the example of what Muslims do at the Kaaba. They travel thosands of miles, clean themselves, dress up, go arround it 7 times, kiss the black stone (Hajr e Aswad), hold the walls, put their cheaks to it and pray. Someone could look at it and say that Muslims worship Kaaba, its their god.

WS

Edited by Orion, 11 October 2006 - 12:37 PM.


#18 umar_khan

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:03 PM

What you have discribed is no proof that those people were worshiping graves.


for me, my eyes are proof enough. this area is an infamous area in pakistan. what i would say is that its only a small minorities of sunnis that do this ritual and this should not be over exagerated. unfortunately this stigma has been attached to certain sunnis by others wishing to discredit them

-Dressing nicely is not haram. I dress nicely before going out for shopping. Does that mean I worship the market?


of course not. you may have misunderstood my point. i was saying that you were forced to dress nicely out of respect to honour the dead saint. thats all. i dress nicely as well. (or atleast i think i do)

they pray 2 rakah to who? The peer or Allah. If they were offering two rakah to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì how could it be worshiping the graves?


the sunnis believe that salah should not be performed where graves are i.e in a room where there is graves. the prophet (pbuh) cursed the jews and christians because they made the graves of their porphets as places of worship
i think the shia may have a different view.

-Regarding the dua they did for intercession you said only the Prophet (pbuh) can intercede. Howerever we know that Muslims can intercede for a dead person. Also hadith from Sunan Abu-Dawud, tell us otherwise:
Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 14, Number 2516:
Narrated AbudDarda':
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The intercession of a martyr will be accepted for seventy members of his family.


yes of course. the hafiz can intercede for 10 people and the ulama can intercede for 100 people i think. but they still need the interception of the prophet (pbuh) as even these people shall be accountable. the prophet (pbuh) will not only intercede for his (pbuh) ummah, but he (pbuh) shall intercede for all of mankind.


Dont get we wrong. I am not saying that everything that happens at the Mazars is right. All the dancing, drugs etc. But waht I am saying is that one should not assume things.


im not talking about mazars. what is a mazar? drugs, dancing...... :unsure:

They may not be as they appear. Take the example of what Muslims do at the Kaaba. They travel thosands of miles, clean themselves, dress up, go arround it 7 times, kiss the black stone (Hajr e Aswad), hold the walls, put their cheaks to it and pray. Someone could look at it and say that Muslims worship Kaaba, its their god.


i agree. but the status of the kaaba is different to that of a saints grave

#19 Orion

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:37 PM

for me, my eyes are proof enough. this area is an infamous area in pakistan. what i would say is that its only a small minorities of sunnis that do this ritual and this should not be over exagerated. unfortunately this stigma has been attached to certain sunnis by others wishing to discredit them


All you have provided so far is spaculation.

i was saying that you were forced to dress nicely out of respect to honour the dead saint

How do you know? You cant read minds.

the sunnis believe that salah should not be performed where graves are i.e in a room where there is graves.



The grave of the Prophet (pbuh) and first and second Khalifa is right inside Masjid e Nabawi.

yes of course. the hafiz can intercede for 10 people and the ulama can intercede for 100 people i think. but they still need the interception of the prophet (pbuh) as even these people shall be accountable. the prophet (pbuh) will not only intercede for his (pbuh) ummah, but he (pbuh) shall intercede for all of mankind.


So if hafiz can intercede why cant a pious saint?

what is a mazar?

Mazar means a tomb, grave site.

i agree. but the status of the kaaba is different to that of a saints grave


Regardless of the status of Kaaba we dont worship it. One may visit the grave to say sura a Fateha.

WS

Edited by Orion, 12 October 2006 - 05:39 PM.


#20 umar_khan

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 09:02 PM

[quote]All you have provided so far is spaculation. [/quote]

its not speculation bro

[quote]How do you know? You cant read minds.[/quote]

i spoke to the worshippors and our driver told us who was taking us on the holiday

[quote]The grave of the Prophet (pbuh) and first and second Khalifa is right inside Masjid e Nabawi.[quote]

the grave of the prophet (pbuh) was not originally part of the masjid. it only was incorporated a few hundered years ago. even now its a seperate area as such as the graves are inside the room and the saudis dont allow people to pray facig the graves


[/quote]So if hafiz can intercede why cant a pious saint?[quote]

im not saying that pious saint cant if Allah swt willed. i was saying that it was pointless making dua to him telling him to intercede for them. its wrong to go to a grave of a saint, martyr, hafiz or an alim and make dua to them for intercession now thats wrong. we know in hadith that those who read the darood sharif often, the prophet (pbuh) shall intercede for them.


[/quote]what is a mazar?
Mazar means a tomb, grave site.[quote]

ok

[quote]Regardless of the status of Kaaba we dont worship it. One may visit the grave to say sura a Fateha.[/quote]

i totally agree. i think you may be misinterperting my posts bro

Edited by umar_khan, 12 October 2006 - 09:04 PM.


#21 Dhulfiqar

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 09:03 PM

Just to add to Orion...

Who's grave is a few yards from the Kaaba?

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

#22 Orion

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 09:52 PM

(bismillah)

(salam)

its not speculation bro
i spoke to the worshippors and our driver told us who was taking us on the holiday


Ok, now you are getting somewhere. So wahat did the worshippers/driver tell you that was proof that they worship the grave? Give me something solid.

the grave of the prophet was not originally part of the masjid. it only was incorporated a few hundered years ago. even now its a seperate area as such as the graves are inside the room and the saudis dont allow people to pray facig the graves


Brother people pray hardly 10 -15 feet from the graves. So thats not a problem?

im not saying that pious saint cant if Allah swt willed. i was saying that it was pointless making dua to him telling him to intercede for them. its wrong to go to a grave of a saint, martyr, hafiz or an alim and make dua to them for intercession now thats wrong.


And the proof is?

If they were asking the saint directly to pardon their sins, that would have been one thing but they are asking them for intercession to Allah not anyone. So whats wrong with that?

WS

#23 Aashiq e Rasul

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 10:42 PM

ive seen them worshiping at the graves. before they go they dress smartley and then they pray 2 rakah and then do dua asking for the peers intercession (which cant happen as only the prophet pbuh.gif can intercede). at the end they throw money at the shrine
they might aswell stay at home and do dua and say darood sharif


(salam)

And this is your definition of worshipping graves?

* You do know that seeking tawassul through the pious has been done by many Deobandi Ulema?
Infact the Author of Fazaail-e-Aamaal (Moulana Zakariyah) writes:

“The aim of reciting the Shajarah is Tawassul (to supplicate to Allah for mercy through the medium of their name). Hence, it is appropriate to begin from the lowest one in the Shajarah progressing to the highest.”

[A Shajarah is similar to a family tree, except that a Shajarah has a chronological order of Shaikhs related by the pledge (Bai’ah)]

And Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi in his book ‘Mashaikh-e-Chist' uses the entire Shajarah of his shaikhs as a means of acceptance of his work..

* Dressing nicely and perfuming yourselves to visit anyone is okay.
This has absolutely nothing to do with worshipping a grave.
The belief of the Ahlus Sunnah is that the dead are aware of the presence of the living. (According to the hadith where Rasulullah (saw) used to say Salaam outloud whenever he entered Jannatul Baqi)
Praying 2 rakah facing the Graves, or the Kaabah?
Cause facing the grave is disallowed.
Imam Ahmed Raza Khan (ra) himself forbade this (Fatwa Ridhwiyah)!
So why would you associate something like this to people who are "brelvi" sunnis?

If you meant praying at the grave yard facing the Qiblah, then what is wrong with that?
You are praying to Allah facing his house. Theres no Shirk in that..
Besides what do you think is more beloved to Allah, a masjid or a Pious Awliya.

Wassalaamu alaikum


Edited by Aashiq e Rasul, 12 October 2006 - 11:15 AM.


#24 sarfraz110

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 12:30 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)' :D
May Allah send his Blessings Upon Muhammed (pbuh) and His Holy Family and His Companions
interesting topic..
just wanted to make 2 points.
regarding praying at graves firstly the Holy Quran States regarding the Earth.
'And We created the earth as a Graveyard'
Wa ja'alna-alarda mihaada.
so this determines the whole earth is a graveyard
*So does this mean we dont pray?
also the most sanctified place to pray the Holy Kaba (Masjidul Harram) is a grave yard for many Prophets of Bani Israel (as) they are buried at the point where the small wall is just before the Holy Kaba so the whole world prays towards guided saints/Anbiyaa' (Prophets)
now does this make our praying a shirk?
or are these arguements just baseless and have no real proof behind them real proof/Discriminator (Furqaan) being the Holy Quran. because whenever Shia and Sunni have a refute they can only come to a compromise with the Holy Book.
also the most sanctified place to pray in Masjidul nabawi is right before the Grave of prophet Muhammed (SAW) it is also perimitered off with a little metalic barrier/haa'il.
like-wise "Masjidul Harram" 'is just within the Perimiter of Maqame Ibrahim (as) and to the small wall (the graves) "it is the most Rewardable place to pray in the world"
by this we can conclude praying towards a grave is not Harram because The Holy Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) all the Companions (ra) and the Imams (as) and millions of Muslims everyday pray towards these graves.
overall the earth is our mother and she is our grave.
can we not pray in our grave?
as regards to intercession Ayatul Kursi is the proof.
mon dhalladhi yashfa'u illa be idne hi.
and Who is it that will intercede save by His permission.

*Allah Has given Permission to certain beings to Intercede.
*Who are they?????
*Call unto Allah by the Beautiful names...
the Asmaa'ul Husna Beautiful names of Allah,
His beautiful examples. Muhammed, Ali, Fatima etc
Best in faith Morals and excellences of Mankind.
the Truthful ones who never had any doubts and never left the Truth.
all the aimma (Imams) (as) are martyrs and are alive having Sustenance from their Lord.
hope this clarifies some of the issues.


Wa salam
and iltemase Dua..
May all your Duas and Ramadhan be accepted..
with love nad Duas.. :wub:
Brother Sarfraz


#25 Tiger

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 09:52 AM

Deobandi & Wahhabi& Slafi& Tawleedi follower & Ahle Hadith are same.All are Wahhabis.


This is Propoganda that Wahhabis are Sunni.

I mean Slafi or Deobandi are not Sunni.

They are making fool Sunni & shia.



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