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Lifting the index finger in tashahud - Question

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Lifting the index finger up and pointing it towards Qiblah (makkah, which you're already facing) is done in tashahud, because they say that in hadith that the prophet (saw) used to raise his index finger up too.  But I don't know about this hadith's story nor it's authenticity.  I don't know actually whether the hadith said the prophet (saw) was seen lifting his finger up one time, or that he always did that.

I don't think shia scholars have mentioned you have to do that in prayer.  I don't see it's importance either.  As far as I know I haven't seen shia's do it.

Salam.

Edited By Mujahid on 1031646244

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Salaams

Well when i was from the sunni school of thought, it was to my understanding that the sunni do it to represent that there is only one khuda, hence lifting the index finger.

Was-salam

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salaamu alaikum

I was wonderin about that as well

I know an Iraqi shia girl and she lifts her finger and I asked her later, why do you do this? and she said, her grandma does it.

so shes just aopeing granny.

hmm

salaams

baheera

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can someone please post the proof that this is a fabrication/innovation/etc??

Salaam alaikum,

The following is an excerpt from A Shi'ite Encyclopedia

https://www.al-islam.org/es/node/28078#subject-personality-umar-part-1-creation-new-islamic-law

[Mod Note: Start of quote:]

Subject: The personality of Umar

          (Part 3: More on prayrs)

This concerns pointing the finger during the salat, after reading the recent posts on this issue, a few questions come to my mind

    1- Who instituted this practice ?

    2- Was it practiced by the Prophet (pbuh&hf) ?

    3- If yes, please cite the references !

    4- If no, then how did this come into practice ?

Here is my answer :

    Omar was the one who instituted this practice. As

    far as my knowledge asserts, I have not come across

    a hadith that asserts it's truthfulness. Here is

    the reference

    He [Omar] was saying prayers once when at the verse

    ' Then Serve the Lord of this House ' he pointed

    his finger to the Ka'ba. Shah Waliullah remarks that

    a gesture of this kind is permitted in prayers.

Sunni references:

    - ' Al Faruq ' Life of Umar the great-Second caliph

      of Islam, Volume II of II, page 314

      Shibli Numani, Publishers Sh. Muhammad Ashraf

      Lahore, Pakistan

    - Izalatul Khifa, Volume III of IV, page 346

      Shah Wali Ullah Muhaddith Dehlavi,

      Publishers Qadeemi Kitab Khana, Karachi

      Pakistan.

Also the book ' The Reliance of Traveller ' doesn't mention a hadith in this context (as far as practiced by the Prophet, May Allah Bless him and his progeny) ... If this was practiced by the Prophet(pbuh&hf), please prove it! [Mod Note: End of quote]

-----

However, I have seen references in Shia books about raising the finger, not in salat, but as a sign of bearing witness to the Unity of Allah.  I believe this is what is meant by the action, but it is not allowed in salat, because there is no evidence that the Prophet(pbuh&hp) did this.  We can't add anything new to the salat, even something so small as lifting the finger.

From the book, Al-Imám al-Mahdí, The Just Leader of Humanity

2) The two maids at Imam 'Askarí's residence have related that when the Imam of the Age was born he sat on his legs and raised his finger toward the sky [bearing witness to the Unity of God]. Then he sneezed and said: "Praise be to God, the Lord of the universe."

Ithbát al-hudát, Vol. 7, p. 292; Ithbát al-wa#iyya, p. 197.

From the book,Fatima the Gracious

"Fatima used to speak when she was in her Mother's womb; when she was born, she fell on the ground in a prostrating position with her finger raised." [5] Sirat Al-Muwla, Dhakha'er al-Uqbi.

WaSalaam, Hajar

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bismillah

(salam)

Why would simply lifting your finger invalidate a salat? ..when the intention of salat is what's known.

I just wanted to ask if you really thought of this sentence before typing it, brother Mujahid.

If the intention of salat was enough then why dont we pray while eating or pray facing just any place not necessarily the Qiblah.  Anything not mentioned by the Prophet  pbuh  is a bid'a and cannot be taken into consideration.

wa salam

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Salaam,

There are lot of ahadith about this in different collections.

Example in Sunan Abu Dawud:

Book 3, Number 0984:

Narrated Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) used to point with his finger (at the end of the tashahhud) and he would not move it.

Book 3, Number 0986:

Narrated AbuMalik Numayr al-Khuza'i:

I saw the Prophet (peace be upon him) placing his right hand on his right thigh and raising his forefinger curving it a little.

But there are ahadith about this in the collection of Muslim, Nasaa'i, Ahmad, Haakm, ibn Khuzaimah, Ibn al-Jaarood, etc., etc.

If the shias don't have any hadith about this, it's their problem, but this isn't innovation.

was salaam

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salamz

my sunni friend doesn't just hold up his finger, he moves it up and down till he stands up or finishes the salat. I was like, man, why do you do that for? He said, he reackons there are hadith that the rasool used to do it, because shaytan was playing in rasools mind, and making the finger go up and down was a symbol of pushing shaytan down. Like you know those cartoons where a big rock falls on one of the charecters head, and then it keeps bouncing on them till they are burried in the ground, that kinda thing.

i was like, ooooooooo kkkkkkkkkkk

the other one i don't get, is why the sunnis bend their right foot kinda thing. It looks funny cause it makes them lean to the left side. is that a umar thing too???

wassalamz

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Bro Hussain, can you also show the hadith from Sahih Muslim, if that one has it too.  Thanks.

How authentic is Abu Dawood?  ...were those hadiths talking about prayer though?

Thanks for the info

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bro Hizbullah, you have a point and I have kept that in mind.  However, you have drastically changed the whole scenario, that is not the same issue.  Coughing and sneezing is allowed during prayer, why wouldn't be lifting your index finger if the meaning of it is only for good.  The intentions/belief is only for good, one thinking that the prophet (saw) did do this.  Anways, this in no way compares to eating or not facing qiblah, as we already know the former is not allowed and the latter is obligatory.

My question was wether doing it or not (lifting the index finger), why would it invalidate your prayer?  I know the prayer must be performed correctly.  But how do we know if the prophet (saw) did or did not do this?  as we see Bro Hussain has some hadiths about it, the next thing is to understand where these hadiths came from.  What they are talking about.  Whether they're reliable.  Allah (swt) can fault us for making a mistake I guess, but a mistake can be of two kinds, intentional and not intentional.  How do we know of these?  knowing for sure.

Salam.

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Salamz,

Brother Mujahid, here is one from Sahih Muslim:

Quote
Book 004, Number 1202:

'Abdullah b. Zubair narrated on the authority of his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sat for supplication, i. e. tashahhud (blessing and supplication), he placed his right hand on his right thigh and his left hand on his left thigh, and pointed with his forefinger, and placed his thumb on his (milddle) finger, and covered his knee with the palm of his left hand.

The Sunan of Abu Dawud is a respected authentic collection, it is one of the so called "Sihah Sitta".

Can you give me some ithna asheri hadith about this topic? What do your sources say about the "jalsa"?

It's interest me. :) Thanks,

was-salaam

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Salam Bro Hussain,

I'm not sure about exact characteristics of sitting in prayer, that are mentioned from hadith.  I have heard that the right foot should be over the left foot when sitting, or that it's to be to the side and the left foot under where you sit.  I'm not totally sure.  In general, I think it is pretty much the same.  I would have to research the hadiths, off the top of my head I don't know.  Sorry.

Maybe someone else can help on this matter.

Take care

Salam.

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(salam)

Just to add abt moving fingers ... ive asked my fren who is doing it .... most of then told me that they move their fingers as if writing the arabic word alif, lam, lam, haa, "Allah" .. they said its not just moving fingers up and down afew times ... and i asked them to bring me alhadith and why they need to do point or even move their finger.. they said its a gd deed noting wrong in doing it so they do it...

and abt the siting position (tashahud position) i hav seens  videos of Ayatullah Khameinie leading the jumaat preyers .. and in his tashahud position he sland his body to the right and put his legs on the right side ... just like the norm sunni bro. and sis did .....

and also Ayatullah fazel lankarani leads prayers, In qum... in those pics i notice his tashahud position is also the same ...

but then again i my self had hardship siting in that position hehehe .. so i just sat on both of my legs instead...

salamz

Ihsan

(Singapore)

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salaams  you know, I tried to tell that Irai sister about lifting her finger during Tash and she looked at me like I sprouted a 4th head..aparently her grandma knows more than I do.

LOL...happened another time as well

I gues converts dont know anything. LOL

salaams

baheera

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Asalaamu Alaikom Upittshiagirl ,

        Sister Many people thing that reverts have alot less knowledge than the rest of the born Muslims But this is just a childish generalization. I personally have the least amount of knowledge about Islam yet I know more tham many born Muslims (sad isnt it) You see sister When we become Muslim we strive harder than if we were born Muslim because we know what it was like not to have guidance and what it was like to be without the illuminating light of Al Islam. I got into a conversation with an elder lady once about Islam and I was amazed how much less knowledge she had than me. She said that she started wearing hijjab when she was 45 :o

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Why do Shias pray a little differently from Sunnis or vis a versa. For example, why do Shias pray with their hands down and Sunnis with theirs crossed. I never really got a solid answer on that. What do you think Baheera? I value the views of reverts :D  (salam)

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