Forgot your password?
Or sign in with one of these services
Guest SHIA_MAN, 9 Jun 2003
Posted 9 Jun 2003
Any sunnite care to answer?
Dumby Uthman compiled the Quran.
Posted 9 Jun 2003
So you say- but he kept it from people, and burned every copy he could lay his hands on- so stop avoiding the question and asnwer it.
So you say- but he kept it from people, and burned every copy he could lay his hands on- so stop avoiding the [edited] question and asnwer it.
Not really he had to find to origanal maniscript that the people had all over the world, they were written on stones, animal skins. All of the maniscripts had to be brought to him. Why dont you study instead of talking.
You clearly have trouble answering the question directly dont you?
So you say- but he kept it from people,
Show some respect.
Don't make me warn you bro.
I have to back Shia Man here. If you do some research, you will find that uthman did indeed burn qurans. Some were even compiled by companions of the holy prophet (pbuh+HF). And he had the people who refused to hand their qurans over beaten.
Ill find some links for you....
BTW brother Shia Man, I have asked this question a few times now and have yet to get a direct answer, even with regards to hadiths in the sahih books which mention changes in the quran.
I don't ever remember reading that he withheld the Qur'an from anyone, but after he compiled it, he ordered that the bits and pieces (lleather, rocks, wood pieces..etc,.) that were used during the prophet's time be burned only after the completion of it's compilation.
here is another question.... why order those quranic verses written in the prophet's(pbuh+HF) time burnt/destroyed?
What purpose did it serve? Maybe he could have ordered for them to be collected and placed in the prophet's (pbuh+HF) mosque or in mecca. That way they would have been preserved. That would have made more sense than burning them all.
Here is a link.
Have a read.
I found this on The Alim on-line, I hope this better answers your questions.
To Uthman belongs the honor of undertaking the measure of the recension of the Holy Quran, and uniting the Muslim community on a standard text of the Holy Quran for all times.
The Holy Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet in parts extending over a period of twenty-three years. Whenever the Holy Prophet received a revelation, he would dictate it to some person who would record it on some piece of leather, date skin or even bones and stones. The principal scribe of the Holy Prophet was Zaid b Thabit.
Uthman also served as the scribe occasionally. Many companions committed the Holy Quran to heart and Uthman was one of them.
Many Huffuz (those who had learnt the Holy Quran by heart) died in the battle of Yamama during the caliphate of Abu Bakr. It was felt that it was necessary that the Holy Quran should be compiled in a book form for the guidance of the people. A compilation was thus prepared,
and it was called Mashaf. In the time of the caliphate of Abu Bakr this compilation was kept in the custody of Ayesha. In the time of the caliphate of Umar this compilation was kept in the custody of Hafsa, daughter of Umar. and a wife of the Holy Prophet. In the time of
Uthman, Hudhaifa who had been to different parts of the Muslim dominions came to Madina, and reported that the people of different regions had different readings of the Holy Quran. The people of Homs held that their reading of the Holy Quran was correct as they had learnt it from Miqdad an eminent companion. The men of Basra held
that their reading was correct as they had learnt it from Abu Musa Ashiari. In Kufa, the people claimed superiority for their reading as they had learnt it from Abdullah bin Masud an authority on the subject. There were thus divergent readings of the Holy Quran. It was stressed that unless some attempt was made to unify the text, that was likely to be a cause of split among the people.
The question was considered by the Majlis-i-Shura, and it was decided that an authoritative standardized text should be compiled and no divergence should be permitted from the standard text. Uthman appointed a Committee comprising: Zaid b Thabit, Abdullah b Zubair,
Saeed b Al 'Aas , and Abdur Rahman b Al Harith. This Committee was commissioned to prepare an authorized text. Copies of the Holy Quran in use in various parts of the dominions were collected and compared with the copy in the custody of Hafsa which had been compiled in the time of Abu Bakr. The Committee worked hard. All the discrepancies were reconciled, and an authorized standard edition was prepared. Uthman checked the compilation himself and finally approved it. Copies
of this edition were prepared and supplied to all parts of the dominions. All previous copies in use in the various parts of the Muslim dominions were collected and burnt.
This was a measure of great importance and significance, and thereby Uthman did a great service to the cause of Islam. The books revealed to all previous prophets had been corrupted by the followers of the respective prophets. But for the measure undertaken by Uthman, the same fate would have befallen the Holy Quran. Uthman deserves the gratitude of the Muslims by this single service in preserving the Holy Quran in its original form free from any corruption. It is surprising that some of the critics of Uthman made this measure a matter of criticism against Uthman. They urged that the burning of the copies of the Holy Quran with a view to introducing a uniform text was a sacrilege. This criticism is entirely misconceived. The burning of the unauthorized texts could by no stretch of imagination be called a sacrilege. It was on the other hand a most pious act inasmuch as it united the Muslim community on an authoritative and standard text for all times.
i do understand what was achieved by uthman "standardizing" the quran. but the question remains, why burn the original texts? Surely there could be no inconsistancies with them as they were written during the time of the holy prophet(pbuh+HF). And the loss of original writings is great.
Also, the holy prophet (pbuh+HF) did say that there are many ways to read the quran.
So what about the hadiths in bukhari that talk about missing verses and ayats?
Salami do understand what was achieved by uthman "standardizing" the quran. but the question remains, why burn the original texts? Surely there could be no inconsistancies with them as they were written during the time of the holy prophet(pbuh+HF). And the loss of original writings is great.Also, the holy prophet (pbuh+HF) did say that there are many ways to read the quran.So what about the hadiths in bukhari that talk about missing verses and ayats?Wa salam
the original tablets could have been preserved in a quran museum - further proof of an unchanged Quran
I guess the Arabs really were dumb :!!!:
(i have a feeling this thread is going to be hijacked :P)
Rasool Alayhi Wa Salaam didnt allow these tablets to be created for a certian ammount of time. Quran was only to be taught verbally for a long period of time.
Do you have references? Or can you tell me where you got this from?
Did it apply to writing on leaves/cloths etc?
And what about the hadiths where the prophet(pbuh+HF) selects the person who can write the best to write the quranic verses?
Whoever burns the quran would be burnt in HELL !!!!!!!!!!! :shaytan:
YOUTH OF ALI............. PLZ RESPECT ARABS, CAUSE THEIR ARE ARABS HERE........INSULTING ARABS INCLUDES INSULTING HIZBOLLAH......SAYED HASSAN....SAYED HAKIM....SAYED SADR.....ALL THE ULEMA..., the Prophet pbuh and Ahlul bayt (as),
ur supposed to be an islamic student, u don't look like one, u don't act like one and u won't be one !!!!
(bismillah) (salam) Whoever burns the quran would be burnt in HELL !!!!!!!!!!! :shaytan: YOUTH OF ALI............. PLZ RESPECT ARABS, CAUSE THEIR ARE ARABS HERE........INSULTING ARABS INCLUDES INSULTING HIZBOLLAH......SAYED HASSAN....SAYED HAKIM....SAYED SADR.....ALL THE ULEMA..., the Prophet pbuh and Ahlul bayt (as),ur supposed to be an islamic student, u don't look like one, u don't act like one and u won't be one !!!! (salam)
I meant the dumb arabs sorry no offence meant
no hard feelings
THE MUSHAF OF 'UTHMAN
During the time of 'Uthman differences in reading the Qur'an became obvious, and after consultation with the Companions, 'Uthman had a standard copy prepared from the suhuf of Abu Bakr that were kept with Hafsa at that time.
The following is the report transmitted in the Sahih Bukhari:
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to 'Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthmfin, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an), as Jews and the Christians did before'. So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa'id bin Al-'As and 'Abdur Rahman bin Hari-bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zaid bin Thabit added, 'A verse from Sura al-Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari'. (That verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their convenant xwith Allah' (33: 23). [bukhari, VI, No. 510]
The following events led to the preparation of the mushaf of 'Uthman:
Disputes had arisen among the Muslims about the correct manner of reciting the Qur'an.
'Uthman borrowed the suhuf, which were kept with Hafsa.
'Uthman ordered four Companions, among them Zaid bin Thabit, to rewrite the script in perfect copies.
'Uthman sent these copies to the main centres of the Muslims to replace other materials that were in circulation.
Chronology of the Written Text
Around 610 Muhammad's Prophethood commences. 1st revelation in cave on Mount Hira Transmitted orally, later in written form.
Muhammad in Makka and Madina. Continious revelation on numerous occasions Transmitted orally after memorisation by many, and writing down of revelation by various companions upon the direct instruction of the Prophet himself.
Last revelation few days before this.
Compelete revelation left behind both in the memories of various companions as well as on various writing materials.
At the death of the Prophet, complete revelation left behind.
Abu Bakrs caliphate
During the battle of Yamama several companions who knew the Quran by heart were killed. Abu Bakr instructs Zaid b. Thabit to prepare a single copy of the complete revelation. Zaid b. Thabit brings together all the revelation into the suhuf from both oral as well as written sources demanding two witnesses for each piece. The Suhuf remain with Abu Bakr.
During the 1st/2nd year after the Prophets death the entire revelation was copied onto sheets (suhuf).
The suhuf remain with Umar.
The suhuf remain with Hafsa bint Umar.
Campaign against Armenia and Azerbaidjan. Serious differences arose among muslims about the correct recitation of the Quran. Uthman instructs Zaid together with three other sahaba to prepare copies from the suhuf kept with Hafsa. Zaid and three Companions prepare a number of fresh copies from the suhuf. These copies are sent to the various muslim regions to replace other material in circulation. Suhuf returned to Hafsa. ‘Uthman also keeps one copy (mushaf).
Several copies of the entire revelation available through out the muslim lands.
What the Prophet left to the Muslims
The revelation, as left by the Prophet, was available both orally and written on various materials. Its internal order was known to the Muslims and strictly observed by them.
Abu Bakr collected these loose materials and had their contents written on to sheets (suhuf).
The Difference between Abu Bakr's and 'Uthman's Collection
Abu Bakr had made one single copy from the various verbal and written material. This copy was later kept by 'Umar and then by his daughter Hafsa.
'Uthman had many copies prepared from this copy and sent them to various places in the Muslim world, while the original suhuf were returned to Hafsa and remained with her until her death. Later, Marwan b. Hakam (d. 65/684), according to a report in Ibn Abi Dawud, collected it from her heirs and had it destroyed, presumably fearing it might become the cause for new disputes. 'Uthman also kept one of the copies for himself. This version of the text, also known as 'Mushaf 'Uthman in fact constitutes the ijma'(consensus) of the sahaba, all of whom agreed that it contained what Muhammad had brought as revelation from Allah. [According to Ibn Abi Dawud (117-8) eleven changes wcre madu under al-Hajjaj, among them e.g. 5:48 'shari'atan wa minhajan' into 'shir'atan wa minhajan'; 12:45 'ana atikum bi-ta'wilihi' into and unabbi'ukum bi ta'wilihi. These are again according to Ibn Abi Dawud mistakes which were made in the preparation of Uthmans copy (pp. 37-49). The first version of 12:45 e.g. was the reading of 'Ubay (ibid. p. 138) and Ibn Masud (ibid. p. 39).]
The wide distribution of this text and its undisputed authority can also be deduced from the reports on the battle of Siffin (A.H. 37) 27 years after the death of the Prophet, and five years after 'Uthman's copies were distributed, Mu'awiya's troops fixed sheets from the Qur'an on their spears to interrupt the battle. [see Suyuti, History of the Caliphs. transl. H. S. Jarrett. Baptist Mission Presss Calcutta. 1881, p. 177.] However nobody accused anyone else of using a 'partisan' version of the text, which would have made a splendid accusation against the enemy.
Posted 10 Jun 2003
Two more and your out.
Sadly Uthman did burn manuscripts of the Qur'an, not stones as Ibn Salafiyya would have us believe, man you need to do some homework! Taken from www.answering-ansar.org
Ahl’ul Sunnah belief that by setting fire to the Qur’an Uthman made a major contribution towards the Deen
Sahih Bukhari, Vol.6, hadith number 510
Al Bidayah wa al Nihaya, Volume 6 page 217 “Dhikr Uthman”
Al Sawaiq al Muhriqa page 68 “Khilafath Uthman”
Riyadh al Nadira Volume 3 page 127 “Dhikr Khilafath Uthman”
Mishkat al Masabih Volume 1 page 175 “Fadhail Qur’an”
Tafseer Qurtubi Voulme 1 page 53
Tafseer al Itqan page 74 Part 18
Tafseer Rul al Ma’ani, Volume 1 page 23
Tafseer Gharab al Qur’an Volume 1 page 27
Al Maudhooath Volume 2 page 423
Taufa Ithna Ashari page 321 “Muthain Uthman” Part 5
Tahseer al Usul Volume 2 page 314 “Bab Jama al Qur’an”
Tareekh Khamees Volume 2 page 273 “Khilafath Uthman”
Tareekh Asim Kufi page 147 “Dhikr Khilafath”
Rauzathul Ahbab Volume 2 page 229
Taufa Tadhreeya page 55
Let us begin with Sahih Bukhari, Vol.6, #510
"Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to ‘Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur’an, so he said to ‘Uthman, ‘O chief of the Believers! Set this people right before they differ about the Book (Qur’an), as the Jews and the Christians did before’. Then ‘Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, ‘Send us the manuscripts of the Qur’an so that we may copy the Qur’anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you. Hafsah sent it to ‘Uthman. ‘Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa’id bin Al-’As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. ‘Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, ‘In case you disagree with Zayd bin Thabit on any point in the Qur’an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish, as the Qur’an was revealed in their tongue’. They did so, and when they had written many copies, ‘Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsah. ‘Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt”
Is this respect for the Word of Allah (swt)? In the same way that Muslims hearts are set ablaze when they see images of Hindus setting the Qur’an on fire, there is no doubt that the Muslims of that time were just as angered when Uthman set fire to the Qur’an. To those Pakistani Nasibi groups such as Sipaa-e-Sahaba who often allege that the Shi’a ascribe to Tahreef and burn the Qur’an in private, we suggest that they look carefully at this reference. These groups are even responsible for inciting sectarian hatred, by falsely alleging that the Christians have set fire to the Qur’an so that they can terrorise the minority Pakistani Christian community. What these Nasibi Mullah’s fail to point out to their followers is that your great Khalifa had no qualms about setting fire to pages of the Qur’an, and set out a campaign of collating copies and lighting them.
The Salaf madhab deems setting fire to the Qur’an to be a ‘virtue’ of Uthman
We read in Al Sawaiq al Muhriqa page 68 “Khilafath Uthman”:
Amongst the objections raised against Uthman is one that he set fire to books that included the Qur’an. Our reply to this is that Uthman’s burning these Qur’an is just one virtue that can be counted amongst many of Uthman’s virtues.
Our reply to these Nasibi who loudly proclaim that the Shi’a ascribe tahreef to the Qur’an that they should clean their own house first. You are the adherents of those Salaf Imams that deem their khalifas act of burning the Qur’an to be one his virtues.
The people were outraged by Uthman’s campaign of Qur’an burning and this was one factor that led to them killing him
We read in al Bidaya wa al Nihaya Volume 6 page 217 “Dhikr Uthman”
“Uthman introduced the Qur’an of his preference and then set fire to different versions that people had in their possessions”.
We read in Tareekh Asim Kufi:
“When the Egyptians surrounded Uthman’s home, he asked them ‘On what grounds do you dislike me?’ They said ‘It is on account of this fact, Rasulullah (s) expelled Hakim bin Aas from Madina and sent him in the direction of Taif, you violated the order of Rasulullah (s) and brought him back to Madina. And the other thing is you collated copies the Qur’an and then set them on fire”.
These references make it clear that opposition to Uthman by the Egyptians was nothing to do with the workings of Ibn Saba, rather they were outraged by the fact Uthman had set fire to the Qur’an. This action so outraged the Muslims that they deemed it as grounds to kill him. An individual that is killed on account of his blatant disrespect of the Word of Allah (swt) cannot be regarded as a martyr.
The Salaf madhab deems it permissible to set fire to the Qur’an as this is the Sunnah of the Uthman
As evidence we shall cite the following texts:
Fathul Bari Volume 9 page 20
Sharh Nawawi Volume 2 page 363
Haseeya Sahih al Bukhari Part 6 Dhikr Qur’an Mushaf
Tafseer Qurtubi Volume 1 page 54
Al Itqan page 203 part 72
We read in Fathul Bari:
“Ibn Bathal stated that the traditions wherein Uthman burnt the Qur'an proves that it is permissible to set fire to books that contain the name of Allah (swt) within them. The setting on fire is respect and Abdul Razzaq copied the comments of Ahl’ul Sunnah that Allamah Tus would set on fire documents that would have the words ‘bismillah’ on them and Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah Ardh would set fire to papers that contained the words bismillah”
Haseeya Sahih al Bukhari
With regards to Uthman’s setting fire to the Qur’an some have concluded that that it is permissible to set fore to any document that’s contents included references to Allah (swt).
If the situation arises and there is a page containing reference to Allah, then it can be set alight since Uthman and the Sahaba set the Qur’an on fire”.
“It is permissible to set ablaze pages containing the Qur’an since Uthman set on fire manuscripts that contained verses of the Qur’an”
It is indeed amazing that in this day and age these Nasibi claim that that setting the Qur’an on fire merits the death penalty whilst they are the followers of an Imam who set scores of Qur’anic manuscripts alight! Rather than condemn Uthman, these Nasibi praise his Qur’an burning exercise and deem his actions a precedent by which his followers can also do the same!
Ahl’ul Sunnah’s appraisal of the Qur’an burning Uthman is tantamount to Kufr
Kirmani Sharh Bukhari Volume 18 page 9
Tafseer Arab al Qur’an Volume 1 page 27
Tafseer Burhan Zurkushee Volume 1 page 477
Lughath al Hadith page 58
Kuruth al Ainain page 273
We read in Tafseer Arab al Qur’an
“Zaid bin Thabit narrates, after Uthman set fire to the Quran people said “He did a good thing, by Allah he did a good thing”.
We read in Kirmani Sharh Bukhari Volume 18 page 9
“Many benefits were borne out of Uthman’s setting fire to the Qur’an, it ensured that no differences occurred in the Ummah. Allah (swt) shall grant Uthman a high reward on account of his burning the Qur’an”.
We read in Lughut al Hadith:
“To set fire to the Qur’an does not breach rules of etiquette, Uthman had no bad intention when he burnt the Qur’anic manuscripts, but it was a good act for which he shall be rewarded highly”.
The Sahaba condemned Uthman and labelled him as ‘Huraaq al Mushaf’
We read in Tafseer al Qurtubi Volume 1 page 54:
“When the people began to oppose Uthman’s corrupt policies and voice their objections, and it was said to the people ‘Be careful in regards to Uthman, fear Allah do not call Uthman ‘Huraaq al Mushaf’
Ayesha said kill ‘Huraaq al Mushaf’
Kirmani Sharh Bukhari Volume 18 page 9 it is stated clearly:
“Ayesha was opposed to Uthman’s burning of the Qur’an and she said kill this ‘Huraaq al Mushaf’ (one who burns the Qur’an)”.
Some Ahl’ul Sunnah have issued fatwas that it is disrespect to burn the Qur’an
Mulla ‘Ali Qari states in Mirqaat Sharh Mishkat Volume 5 page 29 Bab Fadhail ai Qur’an:
“Some Sunni Ulema have stated that to wash [the Qur’an], or throw into a cave or bury it in mud is a better option than burning it, as this act constitutes disrespect”.
We read in Tafseer al Itqan page 203 part 74:
“In his teachings Qadhi Husayn stated confidently that it is not permissible to burn the Qur’an, since the act of burning contradicts manners and etiquette”.
We appeal to those with open minds to contemplate the seriousness of Uthman’s actions. To discard, shred and burn anything of respect is extremely disrespectful, if for example I was to say ‘I shall set fire to this Maulana’s beard’ such a comment would be disrespectful, it is indeed unfortunate that Uthman’s gave less resoect to the Word of Allah (swt) than the Ahl’ul Sunnah do to a Maulana’s beard. These Nasibi claim that the Shi’a are kaafir because they disrespect the Sahaba, and yet a personality that disrespects the Qur’an by burning is elevated in their madhab to the rank of a rightly guided khalifa.
Fatwa of Ahl’ul Sunnah – one who disrespects the Qur’an is a kaafir
Qadhi Iyad in ash Shifa page 441 (English translation by Aisha Bewley) states:
“Know that anyone who treats the Qur’an or a copy of the Qur’an or any part of it flippantly, or curses it or denies it, even to the extent of a letter or an ayat of it, or call any or all of it a lie or calls anything that it clearly states, or any of its judgements or reports, a lie or affirms anything it denies or denies anything it affirms with full knowledge of that or doubts any of it, he is an unbeliever by the consensus of the people of knowledge”.
We have proven from the texts of Ahl’ul Sunnah that one who disrespects the Qur’an is a kaafir, the Sunni Ulema have themselves acknowledged that burning the Qur’an constitutes disrespect. With this in mind the Ahl’ul Sunnah should be more honest and decide on what their views should be about Huraaq al Quran, Uthman ibn al Affan. By burning the Qur’an Uthman disrespected the Word if Allah (swt) an Hadhrath Ayesha deemed such a man to be a kaafir.
Uthman shall be called to account on the Day of Judgement for the sin of burning the Qur’an
We read in Ahl’ul Sunnah leading work Kanz al Ummal Volume 6 page 46 hadith number 820:
“Ans bin Malik narrates that Rasulullah said on the Day of Judgement three things shall complaint before Allah (swt): (1) The Qu’ran (2) The Mosque (3) The family of the Prophet. The Qur’an shall state ‘Allah the people set fire to me. The mosque shall state ‘I was left is a state of disrepair’. The family of the Prophet shall state ‘O Allah, we were expelled from our homes, terrorised and killed’.
I meant the dumb arabs sorry no offence meantno hard feelings
No prob. bro., im with u on that, i admit that alot of the arabs are dumb, especially the presidents, kings, princes, Lions ( no offence to Syria ), etc......
( The syrian president is Hafiz al asad, asad means lion in arabic ), lol.
Posted 11 Jun 2003
That red dude in your tag line... is he your leader? I mean is that Ibn Wahab??
How can you burn a rock back than, its common sense.
Posted 15 Feb 2011
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Already have an account? Sign in here.