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The first, second & third in Ziyarat Ashura?


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#1 Ali

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 02:33 PM

Salam.

I've spoked to a few people who say that in Ziyarat Ashura, the "first", "second" & "third" do not actually refer to the 3 in question since our Imams never cursed.

Anyone here hold the same view? If yes, then who are these 3 being referred to here, and who is the fourth?

#2 The_Mighty_Arab

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 02:58 PM

well, for a start, they are not named, nor are there many specifics mentioned. A general statement like this could well have a good explanation.


so yeah it could be more obvious :)

#3 Peer

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 03:41 PM

Who said our Imams (as) never cursed? :donno:

Wa'Salam
Ali

#4 Hizbullah

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 03:42 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)


Allah knows best. But it is really obvious that the first, second, and third are those we all know.


since our Imams never cursed.


are you sure of that? re read the ziyarah and see all the la3in :)

and who is the fourth?


the fourth could be mouawiyah(la).


It is narrated from Imam Baqir(as) that he told his companion to try to read the ziyarah everyday once if he can do it.

There is a story that says that a woman used to read the ziyarah daily. When she was buried in a graveyard which was full of evil people, a sheikh in her village saw that the punishment had been lifted from that graveyard. All that because she read the ziyarah :D :D

wa salam

#5 Ali

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 03:42 PM

Got any examples?

#6 Peer

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 03:51 PM

Got any examples?


Imam cursing people?

Wa'Salam
Ali

#7 roya

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 03:53 PM

isn't cursing just the opposite of (ra) ? not such a big deal ...

#8 Saberah

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 05:29 PM

Salaam Alaikum

Bro Ali, try reading the Quraan. You will find that Allah subhanah wa ta3aala curses (la3n) the monafeqeen, the kufar, the jews etc.So if la3n was bad, you wouldn't find la3n in the Quraan.

It is known that the Prophet pbuh said " la3an Allah man takhallaf 3an jaish Osama" -may Allah curse those who retire from Osama's army. And it is reported (in all books even the Sunni ones) that Abu Bakr and Omar were one of the main figures who retreated from Osama's army.

Edited by Saberah, 25 May 2003 - 05:33 PM.


#9 Hizbullah

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 05:38 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)


Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse.



Quran: Surah: 2 Ayah: 159

See? Not only Allah curses.

you wanted examples? Well, Al Abbas(as) cursed that guy who came and told him that he will be safe if he betrayed Imam Hussein(as) and he said: may Allah curse you and curse your safety.

hmmm also a hadeeth that says: may Allah curse those do amr bil ma'roof and dont do that ma'roof. may Allah curse those who do nahi 'an al munka and do the munkar.

what else is there?
I hope thats enough :)
wa salam

#10 Ali

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 05:55 PM

Bro Ali, try reading the Quraan..

Umm sis? I never argued against the Ziyarah..

#11 shiaofhussayn

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 06:10 PM

(bismillah)
(salam)

Salam.

I've spoked to a few people who say that in Ziyarat Ashura, the "first", "second" & "third" do not actually refer to the 3 in question since our Imams never cursed.

Anyone here hold the same view? If yes, then who are these 3 being referred to here, and who is the fourth?


Dear brother Ali, I am soo glad that you brought this up. I used to wonder who it really refers.

In my oponion, I think we all know who it refers to. I mean com'on it cant get any clearer. It is obvious. But I still have another question. Read this:

ÇóááøÜåõãøó ÇáúÚóäú Çóæøóáó ÙÇáöã Ùóáóãó ÍóÞøó ãõÍóãøóÏ æóÂáö ãõÍóãøóÏ æóÂÎöÑó ÊÇÈöÚ áóåõ Úóáì Ðáößó¡
O Allah, curse the first tyrant who oppressed the right of Muhammad and his family, and the last one who followed him on that.


So, now my question is, who is this first tyrant who is being refered to in here?

O Allah, curse particularly the first tyrant and begin with him first, then the second, the third, and the fourth. O Allah, curse the fifth one, Yazid.


If we say that these three refer to the first three, then who does this refer to "the first tyrant who oppressed the right of Muhammad and his family"?

One more thing I noticed is that the first tyrant who is being referend to here must be someone who was living during the Prophet (saww)'s era. Also, notice that this tyrant oppressed the right of not only the 'Aal of Muhammad' but the Muhammad himself (saww). From here we can understand who this tyrant refers to. maybe the first one? but what about these three "O Allah, curse particularly the first tyrant and begin with him first, then the second, the third"? who do they refer to?

I hope I am not making you confused. I do not know. Maybe someone willlll shed a light on this.

wasalaaam

fi amanillah

#12 Saberah

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 06:15 PM

Salaam Alaikum

its just that you said "since our imams never cursed"... thats why i tried to explain that if God Almighty cursed them, why wouldnt our Imams (as)?

#13 Ali

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 06:25 PM

Sis, that was their argument, not mine. The people I spoke to..

#14 Saberah

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 06:32 PM

lol ok... sorry :Hijabi:

#15 Gypsy

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 07:01 PM

I believe it is those 3 and their 3 women and all that came later

#16 A'beer

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 01:53 PM

(salam)

What is "Ziyarat Ashura"??



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