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Nad_M

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  1. Abrogation

    In 2:219 God says that there is great ithm/sin in alcohol. Anything qualified as ithm is haram; in 7:33 Allah harrama/prohibited the ithm/sin. The verse 2:219 contrasts naf3/benefit with ithm/sin, because it is opposing its moral benefit to its moral harm. Had a comparison between worldly benefits and physical harms been intended, the word darar/damage would have been used instead. Gambling and drinking in pre-Islamic times were a means through which the rich showed their generosity and helped the needy. In winters, they would gather and drink until inebriated, then slaughter any camels they could get hold of after which they paid the owner any price he demanded. They would then gamble on the meat of the slaughtered camels. Whatever parts of meat a person won in this gambling, he would generously distribute them among the poor who would gather around on such occasions. In pre-Islamic Arabia, this was a matter of great honour and people who took part in this activity were considered very philanthropic and generous. The poets would narrate the accounts of their benevolence in their odes. It was this very benefit of drinking and gambling which prompted people to make an inquiry when they were regarded as prohibited items. However as explained, the sin of alcohol surpasses the moral benefit it might bring, and in addition the same benefits can be acquired through other means with higher standards of morality and honor. The moral harm, is due, amongst other things, to it causing dissention among the people, pulling them away from God-consciousness, remembrence of the divine and prayer 5:90-1. The "profits" found in games of chance and alcohol therefore points in no way to their allowance, especially when the same verse calls them sins - even great sins- and that their sin, ie their moral harm far surpasses their potential moral profit. Further, 2:219 does not only refer to the state of drunkenness being a great sin, but to alcohol itself. This means the consumption of alcohol even moderately, without resulting in a state of intoxication, is a great sin. When 4:43 states that one should not pray when intoxicated, it is simply speaking of a situation where one has already transgressed and is intoxicated through alcohol or other means, so he should not pray in such state. Also if one looks closely at 5:90-91, it ends with a strong admonition in the form of a rethorical question "Will you then desist?" This points to the fact that the people had still not desisted even after the Quran told them that alcohol is a great sin, and that sins are prohibited. This rethorical question is a reminder of an earlier prohibition. As to abrogation, without delving into the intricate details of the verses in question, the proponents of the idea should consider the following few points: 2:106,16:101 cannot refer to abrogation in the Quran for the simple reason that the words describing the process do not allow for both the abrogated and abrogating verses to co-exist within it. 2:106 speaks of N-S-KH meaning a) to write an exact copy, or b) to write over as in replace. 16:101 says baddalna aya makan aya/we replace an aya in the place of an aya. Both verses speak of the physical replacement of the abrogated, with the abrogating and this is not the case of Quranic abrogation according to which both types of verses are still present within the Quran, and is only possible in the case of the Quran's ayat superseding the ayat of previous scriptures, replacing them, which precisely is one of the oft repeated functions of the Quran. In 13:39 which is another verse allegedly speaking of Quranic abrogation, it speaks of "mahw" which means effacement and total removal; this again disagrees with the advocates of that theory according to which both the abrogating and the abrogated verse remain in the Quran. It is to be noted that besides the fact that no consensus truly exists on whether the doctrine is a reality, the identification of abrogated rulings in the Quran has been in the past and still is an act of personally motivated manipulation of the Quran. Scholars of abrogation, fuqaha’, and mufassirun failed to refine the principles of abrogation so as to give them universal shape. Different scholars have come up with their own standards of abrogation in the Quran. That is why, they could not agree unanimously as to which verses are abrogated. Most importantly, no authentic report of the prophet mentions the theory or the existence of abrogated verses within the Quran.
  2. In those 5+ years you kept missing the second part of the verse 17:59, telling you what kind of "ancients" reject signs. They were the Thamud who were destroyed when they transgressed in the matter of the she-camel, a sign they had requested then denied 14:9-10,26:154-5. The example of Thamud, which you keep ignoring and denying is very relevant here because it is exactly the same scenario as with the Quraysh who were tauntingly demanding a sign. The verse isnt speaking of the sending of signs in general, but of the sending of signs as per the disbelievers' request. As already said, the camel was sent after a long time of respite and continuous taunting of their prophet. During that time, they kept mockingly asking for the punishement to befall them and were urged to ask for forgiveness instead. As per the divine law (already mentionned in the previous post) concerning the prevailing of God's messengers and destruction of the die-hard rejecters, they were bound to perish at the expiration of their time of respite. This means they were bound to be destroyed whether or not their request for a sign was granted, so God used those people who were doomed in all case as an example for the following generations by accepting their request for a sign. The answer to the question causing your eyebrows to rise is found in the previous post too. When God judges that every possible warning has been properly conveyed and that a nation's respite during which it was given sufficient time to reflect on the signs and message brought by the prophets has expired, and that nothing more can be done to make them mend their ways, He imposes His judgement on the rejecters of His prophets in this world. While some prefer living in a lawless universe where they will never be held morally accountable, others believe in a universe based on truth, where falsehood is a disruptive force bound to vanish; - either in this world by those causing it themselves after all possible warnings have been properly conveyed by the merciful God - or ultimately on a Day where only deeds based on Truth will be valuable. You're still muddled in the misunderstanding that 17:59 is a justification of why Muhammad wasnt given signs while it was explained that not only signs were given to him as and when God deemed it fit (meaning not in accordance with his opponents' desires), but also that 17:59 is concerned with answering those who request signs, wanting them to conform to their own whims, in heedlessness of the fact they are inviting their own doom. There was no question of defining correct belief in God based on uniformity among the people's faith. Correct belief in God is first and foremost defined according to the (already mentionned) innate guidance and cognizance of God. Uniformity among the people's faith only becomes a criteria of correct faith when these people have been reached by divine guidance and when it was properly conveyed to them, and that they have willfuly accepted it. In that case, those that willfuly reject it after having understood it become accountable for their distorted spiritual notions, as compared to the others who accepted that divine guidance. The harships suffered by the Jews are in accordance with both Quranic and Biblical prophecies, for their transgressions despite the miracles they witnessed as a nation. Especially concerning the Quranic prophecies spoken of in the previous post, they are an ongoing phenomenon for almost 2000 years, and will remain so until the resurrection. The principle of divine punishement being at the height of the miracle witnessed was explained previously, just as the fact punishement is removed from those who do not persist in the evil ways and thoughts of their forefathers. As Jesus said in the NT in confirmation of that principle, the entire nation of Israel will be held accountable for the death of the prophets although not all of them physically took part in their murder Matt14:10,17:l2,Lk11:47-51. It is even reported that the Jews arrogantly and defiently accepted that concept of collective punishment Matt27:25"Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children". Which prophecy attests to the same regarding the palestinians, did their harships begin after repeatedly denying nation-wide miracles as was the case above? Which principle dictates that those who live a life of ease or hardship are either favored or incuring God's wrath, considering what the Quran repeatedly says about these 2 states which all humanity goes through, having absolutely nothing to do with divine blessing or punishement? What do you mean by the Quran being an "unclear" miracle?
  3. You're still not paying enough attention, and are still muddled with basic misunderstandings. 1- There was no question of God's mercy being the reason why Muhammad wasnt given any signs. The prophet Muhammad was given signs, as said in the previous post. What i said and what the verse 17:59 is clear on, is that no sign will be sent as per the disbelievers' request, who are only seeking excuses for their disbelief, to avoid their inevitable destruction as happenned to Thamud spoken of in this same verse. So it is God's mercy preventing Him from answering their request because signs cause the destruction of those that request then reject them, while signs are meant to be a mercy to the people, making them mend their ways "and We do not send signs but to make (men) fear". 2- There was no question of willful rejectors of Islam unable to do any good, that is, in accordance with their "self-reproaching soul" and innate understanding of good and evil, however and as already stated, these good deeds will be restrained to this passing world 18:104"lost in this world's life". The restriction of these good deeds to this passing world means: - their corresponding reward will be paid in this world, because the Quran (and Jesus in the NT as shown previously) repeatedly says that Allah never lets the good deeds remain unrewarded as seen in 11:15-16 and many other verses. - they will have no value in the Hereafter because as stated in 23:102-103 these people will have "light scales" (see previous post for what the plural "mawazin" implies). In fact a good deed, even done by someone who has professed Islam, such as charity for example can be nullified in the Hereafter if not done as commanded 2:264. Finally, 64:9 gives two inseparable conditions to be among the successful in the Hereafter: - Belief in God, meaning at least in accordance with the innate guidance and common sense spoken of previously, or as prescribed in the Quran for those reached by the guidance of this Book. This excludes the willful rejecters of Islam, as per your example. - Doing good, meaning at least in accordance with the innate guidance spoken of previously, or as prescribed in the Quran for those reached by the guidance of this Book. The willful rejecters of Islam, can still do good and be rewarded for them in this world, but their deeds will have no value in the Hereafter As regards your off topic question, the current generation's punishement is contingent on its persistence in the evil ways for which its forefathers were punished. This means if they mend their ways, the punishment will be removed. The punishements the Israelites had to face in this very world 3:56 for their rejection of Jesus and attempts at his life, is that they were subdued to the followers of Jesus until the Day of Resurrection 3:55"and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection". Allah is addressing Jesus and is speaking of the dominion of those who follow him over those that reject him. This favor of God is a fact proven today, with the Israelites being totally dependant upon the Christians for their survival. Today, they are condemned to the humiliating reality of being entirely dependant on other people's whims for their survival, reluctantly accepting "bribe" money and deceitful "love" from the followers of the one they bitterly rejected, for the sake of maintaining a state that is the shadow of what was once God's favor upon them. Besides them being subdued up to this day to the Chrisitans, God warns them of further chastisement 17:8 whenever they return or persist in their wrong ways (their dark history in Christian lands more particularly bears testimony to this) as well as condemned them to have their security fully in the hands of others 3:112 ie it isnt God Himself who would repell their numerous enemies and Who would give them the upper hand on more powerful foes as he did in the times of Moses. Such security could either come from some Muslim states (of the past and today) in the name of Allah or from some non-Muslim states for other reasons. This is because 3:112"they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits" and the Quran continues by making a distinction between them 3:113"They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party.." And who says the current situation of the Palestinians is a divine punishement?
  4. You're not paying attention. Here it is one more time: There are 2 parts to the verse and you are ignoring the 2nd. The verse speaks of disbelievers requesting miracles in order to believe, and God being merciful in not answering their request to avoid them the same faith as the people of Thamud who did the same and were met with destruction. This means it is God's mercy that prevents Him from answering their request because the sending of signs is not meant at destroying the people (in case a sign comes at their request as a condition to believe) but at warning them and make them mend their ways and this is proved through the example of Pharao. While you think it serves your position, the fact is it doesnt because the signs (3 to Pharao in particular and 6 to the Egyptians in general) to Pharao were not given to Moses as per anybody's request such as in the example of Thamud above, but even before Moses went to meet Pharao whom he was told to warn and make him mend his ways 43:48"And We did not show them a sign but it was greater than its like, and We overtook them with chastisement that they may turn". These were warning signs, just as 17:59 says "and We do not send signs but to make (men) fear" and when God judged that every possible warning was properly conveyed and that nothing more can be done to make them mend their ways, He imposed His judgement on the rejectors of His prophet. As for the nation of Jesus, your attempt to use the argument that punishement did not befall them in his lifetime to counter the fact that all throughout prophetic history God destroyed those who rejected the prophets sent with manifest signs, does not hold. The Quran states, in several places that God's punishement befalls the nation of rejectors on its appropriate time, whether or not the prophet is caused to die prior to the descent of the scourge 13:40-2,36:26-32,40:77 because 58:21"Allah has written down: I will most certainly prevail, I and My messengers; surely Allah is Strong, Mighty". Physical destruction and abasement came on them soon after Jesus' departure. The Temple of Jerusalem was razed to the ground as Jesus predicted in Matt23,24,Lk23 (Quran 17:7,3:56) the Israelites were slaughtered in large numbers women and children included, by the Romans and many more were enslaved and sold in the markets, as Jesus prophesied lk21:24 and soonafter they were scattered yet again throughout the earth and for the next 1900 years they would have no authority in this land. The area of the Temple became a place were the inhabitants of Jerusalem, including the Christians and Jews threw their garbage, in accordance with Jesus' prophecy that not a stone would be left standing on another, for the Israelites' rejection of him Luke21 and as a confirmation that should they turn away from the commands of God, God Himself will uproot them from the land He has settled them in to assert their righteousness, turn their sacred shrine into an object of ridicule among the nations 2Chronicles7:19-22. On 16:104, look at the verses surrounding it. It is speaking of people who strongly, willfuly reject guidance when it comes to them. These are kuffar, or disbelievers. It has nothing to do with any of your examples. Regarding 64:9, once more, a good act from a Quranic point of view is something God commanded or in accordance with the principles of this Book. The Quran repeatedly speaks of how any act devoid of this principle by those who willfuly reject those very principles, will remain "lost" in this present world and will not be accounted for in the Hereafter. This is similar to what Jesus said in the NT in Matthew 6 about those who do "good" without any perspective of the Hereafter (not as God commanded) such as praying, fasting or giving to charity only to be seen by men that they will have no reward in the Hereafter and that they will be paid in full in this world only, meaning the deed will not be considered as "good" in the Hereafter. Similarly, believing in Allah does not merely imply believing He exists but believing in Him as is taught in His Book. The Quran gives many examples, including those of the Christians or Arab pagans who do not believe in God as they ought to due to their rejection of the way taught in God's Book, the Quran. So when 64:9 describes the succesful in the Hereafter as those "who believe in God and do good", it excludes the above mentionned groups and this is clearly attested by the direct context of the verse which you are trying to isolate and distort. There is a reason why the Quran speaks of mawazin/scales in the Hereafter 23:102-3. The plural indicates there will be many criteria of evaluation and measurements to which a deed will be compared to, for it to be weighty in the spiritual realm. As for the people to whom Islamic guidance did not come or who did not willfuly reject it, and who have their own beliefs according to which they act in this world, the Quran presents an exchange between the prophet Musa and Firon, explains that Allah alone decrees the destiny of those who were not reached by divine guidance for He alone knows their motives and understands the cause of their choices, and He alone can appreciate their spiritual merits and demerits 20:48-55,17:54"Your Lord knows you best; He will have mercy on you if He pleases, or He will chastise you if He pleases" 25:58"and Sufficient is He as being aware of the faults of His servants". God then adds to Moses' answer that common sense and the observation of nature must lead a person to cognizance of a unique Creator. God has created in man the innate ability to come to such conclusion through reason and observation. The Quran states that all humans have, ingrained in their souls, a basic guidance to understand the great evils and make the essential correct spiritual choices so each person is at least responsible for his response to that basic guidance. This innate guidance must be nurtured or it dies and all humans therefore will be held responsible for at least failing or succeeding in hearkening the basic calls of their ingrained God-consciousness 7:172-3,75:2,91:7-10. So for these groups to be included among the succesful in the Hereafter, described in 64:9 as "whoever believes in Allah and does good", then their belief in God will have to be in accordance with their innate guidance and common sense, and the nature of their deeds may not conflict with their innate capacity to understand good and evil. This means that in any case, a deed is only good because it is in accordance with God's revealed principles. Concerning your vague reference to 30:30 and Allah's fitra, it doesnt say people are born Muslims, rather that originaly, every human being is made spiritually upright, naturally inclining to the Truth and this is due to the ingrained guidance already spoken of above, which every person is responsible to nurture and develop.
  5. This misunderstanding was explained to you in very concise, elementary terms there http://www.shiachat....0#entry2478672. As for this: 6:67"For every prophecy is a term, and you will come to know it". Miracles are not manifested to conform to the whims and wishes of the disbelievers, but to warn a nation 17:59"and We do not send signs but to make (men) fear". When the disbelievers make such requests, it is only because they are seeking excuses for their disbelief, or to side-track the issue of worshipping only One God and rejecting their false gods 6:36"Only those accept who listen". In the NT, Jesus is reported to have rejected his taunters' request to perform a wonderous sign, precisely due to that reason Mk8:11-13. When a warning sign is manifested through a prophet and the people reject it, their time of respite during which they are given opportunities to mend their evil ways expires and they are destroyed because such manifest sign leaves no more room for speculation. The Quran, through the stories of Muhammad who presented the miraculous Quran along with its prophecies whose rejection by Muhammad's nation despite their unfolding resulted in their defeat and destruction, or the stories of prophets of the past who presented signs and prophecies to their people with the aim of warning them but these warnings ended by causing their destruction because of their disbelief in them once they unfolded, confirms that principle 17:59"And nothing stops Us from sending the Ayat but that the people of old denied them" this denial caused their destruction such as Pharao and his people 7:130-6 or the people of Thamud of which the verse reminds "and We gave to Samood the she-camel-- a manifest sign-- but on her account they did injustice". The camel was sent after a long time of respite and continuous taunting of their prophet, just as with the prophet Muhammad, and when they rejected that sign, they were destroyed. It is thus a mercy to these very people to whom prophets of all times were confronted, that God does not answer their request immidiately but only sends the signs of warning when He deems it fit. Thus, it is in Quraysh's own interest that they do not emulate the preceding nations. If Allah accepts their request, they may be subject to severe punishment - this subtly alludes to the gradual unfolding of the Quranic miracle, and His mercy in giving them respite. The verse does not mean "We are prevented from sending miracles because previous nations disbelieved" Rather it means that "Our Mercy prevents us from sending a miracle as per your immidiate request" -adding the example of Thamud who were also given respite but eventually destroyed when they transgressed in the matter of the she-camel whom they had to leave to drink freely in the intervals of time decreed for her, and then take their turn along with their cattle when her time expired 54:27-9. This is an important aspect of miracles. If God chooses to manifest one through his prophets or by other means, it establishes the tremendous responsibility of those that witness it. God therefore clearly warns those who demand it as a challenge or mockery, that they are in fact inviting their own doom 40:78"and it was not meet for a messenger that he should bring a sign except with Allah´s permission, but when the command of Allah came, judgment was given with truth, and those who treated (it) as a lie were lost". When the tables descended for Jesus and the Apostles 5:112-5, God warned the Apostles, through Jesus, that if they turned away after this, they would face a punishment unlike what others would normally face because it came at their own request. This is an observable reality through the history of the Jewish people and the severity of their punishements that were at the height of the miracles they witnessed and sometimes requested. Moving to this: A "disbeliever" in Quran terminology is someone who wilfully rejects guidance when it is clearly exposed to him, not someone who wasnt aware of the true faith or to whom guidance wasnt yet properly explained, as per your point 3. There are many examples to prove this but it is preferable to clear your misunderstanding in concise terms Continuing with this: "doing good" in Quran terminology, and like above there are many examples to prove this, means doing what God has prescribed and commanded, and refrain from what He has forbidden. Willfully rejecting the Quran and associating with God are violations of divine commands so anyone indulging in such behavior is not included among "whoever believes in Allah and does good".
  6. As long as you understand the root of your misunderstanding, which was to apply the phrase "desire of the world" to people in general while the Quran intends it for specific individuals, then sure we can move on to your next issue.
  7. In Quran terminology the phrase "desire of the world" is used only for those devoid of God-consciousness in their enjoyments of the things of this life, and thus become neglectful of the Hereafter where they will have no share. This is clear from the context where the phrase is used. The Quran never describes a righteous believer as someone who "desires this world", but always as someone seeking the enjoyment of what is lawful, in God-consciousness, having in mind the higher meaning of things.
  8. Christianlady, Marriage is an earthly union that shall be renewed in the Hereafter if both mates make it to paradise. As regards your "logical" problem with a widow having re-married in this life, it was answered in my first post. Eden was meant to be ultimately in Heaven and had the married couple Adam and Eve not eaten from the tree they would have remained married in Heaven but, besides creating 2 difficulties i have pointed and that remain unanswered, your wrong interpretation of Jesus' words in Matt22 creates a bizarre situation for them once in Heaven, that you still did not answer either. There is no underlying notion of monogamy in Genesis 2, just the idea that their bond will be very strong and that their union will result in one flesh, ie a child being the combination of both (this is how rabbinical exegesis understands the verse). It is to be noted that Genesis 2:24 says "they shall become one flesh" not "the two shall become one flesh". The bold part is inexistant in the original Hebrew Bible from where Jesus allegedly quotes, which cancels your monogamy argument (an argument completely irrelevant and out of context as already shown, since the question Jesus was answering wasnt about polygamy). This leaves you with yet other problems which you will probably ignore like the rest: either Jesus never made that quote and Matt19 is a fabrication, either Jesus did make that quote and Genesis 2:24 has been tampered with. In all cases, the Torah allows polygamy without limits as revealed by Hashem at Sinai and Jesus upheld these very words to the letter.
  9. Clynn, Read the passage 38:30-40. It begins with a praise of Solomon's highly noble character and spiritual awareness. It then gives 2 examples to illustrate this point: - his love for the wordly benefits under his possession stemmed from his constant remembrance of God, meaning he always had in mind the higher meaning if things - his succesful passing of the test he was put through, as he saw a lifeless body sitting on his throne, symbolizing the ephemerity of all wordly things including the rule of a mighty king leaving behind all his possessions. Solomon immidiately began praying for forgiveness, as any humble believer does whether or not he has sinned, and requested to be granted a kingdom that will not suit anyone after him. This request implied a kingdom that could not be inherited, because it cannot be said from any of the things he was given, that they would not suit anyone after him. Many noble men, let alone prophets of God rose after him and could have made use of all of his powers and possessions with full wisdom, responsibility, and God-consciousness. The only thing that could not be passed on and that Solomon was requesting as he saw the dead body on his throne, was the spiritual kingdom. This request was granted 38:40, and as a reward of his humility and turning-away from worldly ambitions (as also seen from his refusal to compromise his spiritual message to the Queen of Sheba who had tried luring him with wordly gifts), he was also given certain supernatural powers 38:36-38.
  10. The Qur'an

    No such verse exists. You may be alluding to 5:116 where Allah questions Jesus whether he asked to be worshiped along with Mary. Christians and Catholics worship Allah, but most of the time they do not just like the Meccan pagans prior to Islam. Christians and Catholics address most of their prayers to specific personalities like Jesus or the Father or Mary and occasionaly the HolySpirit. These personalities are believed to be capable of interceding on their own in the process of salvation. 5:116 points out Catholics in particular and their well known excessive worship of Mary, as other Christian denominations repudiate and denounce. In 5:116 the Quran accuses Christians of taking Mary as an ilah. The word is used for any entity that is worshiped 10:18"And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah" 30:13"And they shall not have any intercessors from among their gods they have joined with Allah, and they shall be deniers of their associate-gods". When the Catholics spoken of in 5:116 address Mary in their prayers, they are taking her as a god besides Allah, like the pagans did when they prayed to deities besides Allah to whom all prayers is due 6:56,13:14-16,22:73 and whom they also worshiped as the supreme God "And if you ask them who created the heavens and the earth, they will certainly say: Allah". When the pagans or the Christians address prayers to other entities than Allah whom they worship, they are taking gods besides Him regardless of whether they are aware of their polytheism/shirk or not just as one becomes guilty of taking his own lust as his god when he obeys it as God should be obeyed 45:23. In fact the Quran repeatedly says how those who associate with Allah other deities, saints or personalities, religious leaders or their own selves by following ways incited by their own desires that were never divinely sanctionned 9:31,6:136-9,25:43,36:60,42:21,45:23 do so without even knowing it 23:84-9,29:60-65"And if you ask them, Who created the heavens and the earth and made the sun and the moon subservient, they will certainly say, Allah. Whence are they then turned away?" When their deviation is pointed to them, they deny their obvious polytheism and invent the same excuses Catholics say today when even their Christian brethren accuse them of idolatry 46:28,39:3"We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah". Catholics today claim that they do not worship Mary but simply ask her for intercession with the supreme God, as stated in the verse. This confirms yet again man's tendency to deviate from the path of pure monotheism 12:106"And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him)". The Quran refutes the notion that an entity has any authority by itself to intercede, precisely in order to avoid such deviations. The authority of intercession belongs to Allah only and He grants it to whom He pleases, on behalf of the people who deserve it as a way to honor them, not to plead with them to God. Despite her oft repeated exalted status, her clearing from the slanders of the Jews regarding her chastity, Mary in the Quran is neither presented as a goddess nor a mother-God. She is told to 3:43"keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow". The verse 5:116 is not concerned with warning Christians against the Trinity. 5:116 is a warning against shirk, with the veneration of Mary being a very big part of the roman and orthodox variants of Christianity. The Trinity and other deviations that Jesus' followers and their descendants fell prey to are mentioned elsewhere in the Quran. Trinity is specifically denounced in 4:171 that says to Christians not to say "three" when speaking of Allah's nature, Allah is One. In this "trinity context", the verse mentions Mary's name twice without saying anything about her being a deity according to that doctrine, while it strongly refutes Jesus' deity who is believed to be part of it, by describing him as Allah's messenger, born of a woman, having a ruh/soul created by Allah ie a human being like any other. 5:72-75 refutes another aspect of the trinitarian doctrine and starts by mentionning Jesus' divinity only in the context of the trinity, and does not speak of any other personality as being divine. It denies his divinity by saying that he was a mortal, just like his mother who ate food like any mortal despite her exalted status so how then can God be born of a mortal woman whose essence is the opposite of Him? 5:72-75 doesn't say Mary is one of the 3. It doesnt even say Jesus is one of the 3 as the emphasis is not who else is in the 3, but whether Allah is 1 of 3. It simply says your Allah is One God and there is painful punishment for setting up partners with Allah. Nothing more and nothing less. Trinity is not addressed in details, the position of the Quran is that who or what comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God. This concept developped by the "Church Fathers" through several councils and debates, since it is not even present in the Bible have gradually fashionned Christianity the way it is today which is why the Quran accuses Christians of taking their religious leaders for lords besides Allah 9:31. This is yet another aspect of their polytheism/shirk which followers of all religions easily fall into, even Muslims when they give divine authority to that which God never sanctioned through His messengers 42:21. In short, the Quran is not a pamphlet concerned in exposing each deviation Christians fell into. It gives a few examples that apply to all cases: - do not say "three" when speaking of Allah's nature 4:171 (the verse mentions Mary's name twice without saying anything about her being a deity or part of the so called Triune-Godhead while it strongly refutes Jesus' deity in that trinity context) - do not take gods besides Allah 5:116 (when prayers are addressed to specific personalities like it is done daily in the case of Mary and Jesus) - do not take your religious leaders as lords besides Allah 9:31 (when they are given divine sanction) Sure they do, even today,and the OT is full of other personalities on whom the phrase "son of God" is used. The Quran rebukes the previous nations upon whom revelation was bestowed for their abuse of the metaphorical usage of the phrase "son of God" on themselves 5:18 because God's mercy and guidance does not belong to a race or group but to all, and neither does His justice discriminate among any group regardless of their claims of special relationship with Him. It also warns them for their excessive usage of the phrase to personalities whom they exalted 9:30, amog them Ezra who is particularly praised for his role in rewriting the Torah that was once lost. Such phrase implies that someone might be compared in essence to God, belittling Him greatly when everything in the heavens and earth bow to His will willingly or unwillingly. This title is so much honor no one deserves, not the greatest prophets or angels, not anything of His creation. The greatest of the greatest creations, although honored and drawn near to Allah, are only fit to be called His slaves "And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants".
  11. Christianlady, Revelation is, according to your belief, an inspiration from the same God who inspired Genesis. In the prophecy of Revelation, God says the tree of life is in Heaven meaning that Eden was ultimately bound to be part of Heaven, regardless of where it was in the days of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had freewill to either sin or obey, opening the way to 2 possibilities: - banishement from the garden in case of sin - remain in the garden in case of obedience, as well as immortals, in the same garden that is or will be part of Heaven according to Revelation 22. Now besides the problems already pointed and which you ignored, regarding your continuous out of context application of Jesus' words concerning marriages in the Hereafter, this second option creates another problem for you, with God having to forcefully divorce Adam and Eve in Heaven because all marriages there are allegedly cancelled. Also, why would Jesus need to mention what would be the situation of the marriage of 2 dead persons who both reach Heaven in his response to the Sadducees, something totally unrelated to the problem they raised? Concerning Matthew 19, you are again severly misquoting Jesus. The context is that of the Pharisees trying to ridicule him publicly, asking him if a man can divorce his wife for any trivial matter. To this he answered that the bond of marriage is so strong, through the phrase "one flesh", that none should break it except in case of a grave matter such as adultery. This has nothing to do with setting limits on the number of wives men might have and had it been the case then it would mean Jesus wasnt truthfull in his claim to uphold the Torah to the letter, the same Torah that allows men to marry an unlimited number of women. And since you are asking my opinion as a Muslim of the law concerning levirate marriage in Deut25, i believe, just like Jesus who indirectly condemned it, that it is oppressive towards the woman and that God did not reveal this law, rather that the Israelites integrated into the Torah a tribal and ethnical rule. In fact this practice seems so awkward that it clashes with other parts of the Torah, such as Leviticus 18:16. As said in the Quran "O you who believe, it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straiten them in order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it."
  12. Christianlady, No i do not believe Revelation to be true, as most of the Church fathers who considered it apocrypha until later on and canonized it, however i am discussing the Christian point of view, which holds this book to be true, and it says in chapters 2 and 22 that the tree of life is in the same city as God's throne. Even if we were to accept Eden to have originally been planted on earth, then it would mean it was intended to ultimately be part of Heaven and prior to their banishment, Adam and Eve were husband and wife meaning had they not eaten from the tree they would have been, along with their descendants in that city where God's throne now stands, as husband and wife who come together as "one flesh" as originally decreed for them. As regards to polygamy, you've been given the verses revealed by Hashem at Sinai which Jesus upheld to the letter, and that allow a man an unlimited ammount of wives. The most central Biblical figures were acting according to that very law as they married multiple wives. And sure a woman might become "one flesh" with many men, but it would be against divine law and cause several social issues. Again, the Quran's point of view is that men should marry only one, and it is the only Book that says so, except to remedy a specific social situation which is beyond the scope of this discussion for the moment. Jesus did not need to "say" that the widow was forced into marriage in order to confirm their unjust premise which was clear in their wording "if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him". Once more, note well Jesus' words in this Matt22 passage. In his confrontation with the Sadducees who were always on the lookout for an occasion to ridicule and discredit him, Jesus says "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage". He isnt saying those who were married in this life wont remain so in the Hereafter should they both make it to Heaven, rather he is denying the act of marrying. Secondly, it isnt any act of marrying that he is denying, rather the one as understood in the traditional Jewish sense with the women being forcefully "given" to marriage and the man "marrying" her against her will. This was the specific situation, a woman compelled to marry six of her first husband's brothers in succession, presented to Jesus by the Sadducees and this is what he was answering yet you are attempting to pull out that answer out of its context to apply it to marriage in general, which not only defeats the purpose of Jesus' answer which was to hint at their unjust practices and reform them morally, but also defeats the original purpose for which sexual counterparts were created as per Genesis. His answer implied she would be married to none of them since these marriages, and by extension marriages in general in Jewish scriptures, were all forced upon her in this life and that this practice wont exist in heaven anymore, a place devoid of grief, ill feelings or oppression.
  13. Christianlady, In Eden, Adam and Eve were called husband and wife, and were made to come together as one flesh. Your location of the Garden of Eden on earth has no biblical basis and in fact we read in passages like Revelation 22 that the tree of life is in the same city as "the throne of God and of the Lamb", the Lamb being Jesus. So Eden is a location in Heaven, per the Bible and Jesus might ascend to Heaven without necessarly going in this garden. Once more, Genesis 2 states that sex is lawful in heaven and actually among the purposes of creating sexual counterparts. There simply is no way around this. Your argument against polygamy based on the statement "one flesh" is a bit poor considering a man can become "one flesh" with many wives and this is what several figures, including prophets of the Bible did, without limits. The Quran is the only religious book saying specifically to marry only one -contrary to the Bible that sets no limit Ex21:10,Deut21:15. These verses were among those revealed at Sinai, by God and Jesus abided by and upheld these laws to the letter. The Quran clearly alludes to the fact that as per the norms of human nature, the real benefits and advantages of the institution of family manifest themselves in a monogamous family and when it mentions the options of marrying up to 4, it is in a social context of providing for orphans under care (a situation that will not exist in Heaven). As regards to Matthew 22, once more, Jesus isnt stating there will be no marriages, only that there wont be marriages as per the unjust, oppressive, forceful example presented by his opponents. Jesus isnt condemning the act of marrying the widow of a deceased brother, but the forceful marriage of that widow. Your questions regarding what HUR AYN are were already answered in the passage you quoted. Also, like the wives, the husbands will be resurrected too, so as to match their wives in many aspects including physical as denoted with atraban 56:37,78:33 and as clearly stated in 56:61,71:18 all humanity will be made to grow into another creation, its nature itself will be altered, in order to live in a different world obeying to different laws. Husbands and wives will be comfortably seated, enjoying eachother's presence as well as the pleasures of paradise 36:55-8,56:15-6. And finally, you were clearly explained how the supreme reward of the righteous, per the Quran, will be their nearness to God.
  14. Christianlady, Just as marriage is the norm in the Quran's depiciton of the afterlife, the Bible too describes paradise as a place where people will be joined with their loved ones. From the very beginning as related in Gen2 and as reiterated by Jesus in Matt19, men and women were originally made to come together as one flesh and this obviously means sex as well as metaphorically love, with Eve being made because "It is not good for the man to be alone" with the purpose of Adam being "united to his wife, and they become one flesh". They are referred to as husband and wife while still in paradise. This means that from a Biblical perspective, the physical union of a man and woman is the norm in paradise itself. Jesus never says there will be no marriages whatsoever in heaven, during his confrontation with the Sadducees in that passage you quoted. He says the action of marrying, ie wedding, in the traditional Jewish sense with the women being forcefully "given" to marriage and the men "marrying" them against their will wont exist anymore, since this was the situation presented in the Sadducees' example of a woman being compelled to marry six of her first husband's brothers in succession. He cancelled the "problem" they presented by ridiculing their unjust premise which was many times his "debate technique" in his confrontation with the Jewish elite. His answer implied that she would be married to none of them since these marriages were all forced upon her in this life and that this practice wont exist in heaven anymore, a place devoid of grief, ill feelings or oppression. He further says people will be like angels, not angels, which means they will share some of their qualitites and this obviously refers to their immortality. Even though none can speculate on how such apparently "logical problem" of a woman widowed multiple times will be solved in Heaven, since the Quran repeatedly says we cannot comprehend what awaits us in the Hereafter, i believe the Quran does give some clues. It says there will be no grief nor any negative feelings whatsoever in Heaven, this includes jealousy. It also says the righteous will have ranks according to their righteousness so obviously the foremost in faith will be favored in his/her desires. This means in a situation where a woman survived 3 husbands and that all 4 make it to Paradise, the foremost in faith among the 4 could have his/her desires favored above the others in regards to the mate he/she loved; - If the woman was the foremost in faith, she could be married to the man she loved the most among the 3 husbands she survived - If one of the husbands is the foremost in faith he could be married to the woman. The remaining husbands will have no ill feelings whatsoever in heaven, and they will still have the possibility to be married to the many righteous unmarried women that had no husbands on earth and that entered Paradise. All this is speculation obviously and God knows best The description of paradise as given in the Quran is expressly stated to be a parable which is why various verses describe these hidden realities through loan-images derived from our actual –physical or mental– experiences resulting in some kind of visualization 13:35,37:40-9,47:15 the true reward and greatest achievement of the righteous in the Hereafter being the nearness to Allah and gaining His pleasure 9:72,50:35,54:55,56:11,88 and Heaven is described as a place where the righteous can constantly evolve and progress unceasingly 39:20"those who keep their duty to their Lord, for them are high places, above them higher places, a built (for them), wherein rivers flow. (It is) the promise of Allah. Allah fails not in (His) promise" 66:8"their light shall run on before them and on their right hands; they shall say: Our Lord! make perfect for us our light, and grant us protection, surely Thou hast power over all things". In fact the Quran presents how the noble qualities of the righteous Believer in this life, will be even more prominent in the next where instead of asking for the satisfaction of lusts and all kinds of materialistic desires in a place where all their wishes are granted 16:31 they will love it most to sing hymns of praise to Allah and glorify His name just as they did in this world, as well as wish peace to eachother 10:10 in a place where there will be no room for vain, idle or mean talk, only peaceful intentions 19:62. Now as regards the "carnal" aspects often pointed as regards the Qur'an's depiction of Heaven, it is one of the most misunderstood aspects and it is to be noted that nowhere does it speak of so-called 70 virgins. It uses a beautiful expression, HUR AYN, found in 44:54,52:20,55:72,56:22 for those with whom the dwellers of heaven will be coupled as seen in 44:54,52:20 (when the word zawj is used, in the context of a man and a woman being coupled, it means they are lawfully married). Ayn means eyes, Hur is the plural of ahwar (m) and hawra (f) used to describe "someone distinguished by hawar". Al-hawar is used for the intense whiteness of the eye, denoting the marked contrast between the white of the corona and the black of the iris. In a more general sense, hawar signifies "intense whiteness". It is primarly used metaphorically for "moral purity", the mates/azwaaj of paradise will be purified/mutahharin 2:25,4:57 and Jesus' companions are also described with a term derived from hawar obviously to denote their moral uprightness for standing alongside Jesus while almost all of his people rejected him 3:52. In fact it is made abundantly clear through the passage 52:17-20 that these hur ayn will be a reward for all those righteous who shall enter paradise, regardless of their gender. From a man's perspective, these purified mates will be none others than the righteous women to whom one was married in this life, who will be admitted to paradise and with whom one will be joined again 13:23,40:8,43:70. This reinforces the fact that the dwellers of heaven, will be married to those hur ayn with whom they will be made azwaaj 44:54,52:20. Hence, the expression used for the mates of paradise "hur ayn" signifies pure companions of beautiful eyes, with the intense whiteness of their eyes being the reflection of their soul (Razi). Although the wives will be resurrected at their physical best 55:70-2,78:33 the foremost of their qualities will be their modesty and chastity which is reinforced through the analogy with the protected eggs 55:56"those who restrained their eyes; before them neither man nor jinni shall have touched them" 37:49"As if they were eggs carefully protected". They will be virgins, which is the necessary consequence of their re-creation in the Hereafter 56:35-6. Their analogy with protected eggs denotes self-preservation and protection from immorality, they are in addition likened to "hidden" pearls and rubies 55:38,56:23 implying untouched beauty and purity. Similarly the young children of paradise, most probably those who died before reaching maturity and moral accountability, that can either be the righteous' own children or any other under-aged children of those who did not make it into paradise 52:21, will be going round about the dwellers of heaven and are equally described with words evoking both physical and spiritual beauty and purity 56:17,76:19,52:24"as if they were protected pearls". God does not break ties that were created in this world, but cements them. Companionship, including friendship, is one of the blessings of this world and a need of the human being, who is a social creature. It reaches its ultimate in Paradise, meaning one will live amongst friends and those one loves. It is only those bonds that were based upon falsehood and untruth that will dissolve, and the Quran repeatedly alludes to the fact that only the righteous will remain eachother's friends in the Hereafter. The Quran draws the picture of a person in Paradise recounting his 'friendship' with another, and when seeing the latter's state 37:50-7 will be glad that Allah saved him from that. It shows that even those relationships that one holds dear based upon worldy considerations will ultimately be of no value, if it so happened that one of them opposed truth in his life.
  15. Adam And Eve

    Something important to add to my above post, and which unequivocally supports the idea that Adam was the result of previous entities reproducing among themselves, is the sequence in the verses 32:7-9"and He began the creation of man from dust. Then He made his progeny of an extract, of water held in light estimation. Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit, and made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts; little is it that you give thanks". This verse literally says the progeny of an entity that originated from clay spread through some "lowly fluid" i.e. the sperm before it was made complete then filled with God's spirit. This shows that an "incomplete" species reproduced through the sperm-drop and gradually developped into a fully, complete human being i.e. Adam who then received the spirit from God, as in 38:71-2"When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust: So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him". It isnt difficult to imagine that almost simultaneouly or very shortly after, other humans might have been likewise completed both physically and spiritually in order to reproduce among this new species.
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