Son of Placid

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  1. I believe this to be very interesting, and very important point in the connection between Christianity and Islam. The Revelation of John also speaks of a time period of righteous rule. It speaks of Jesus coming, but it also mentions many levels of A+++ category leadership., which could be "top managers" of 124,000 prophets, or the 144,000 mentioned who were "sealed". The Revelation is quite scattered and many people are making money for their version of John's visions. It is futile to read it with preconceived impressions. Also, most of 2000 years later, some of the "future" could now be in our past. I am of the impression that Adam knew the Injeel as it was given to every Prophet and as it will be during this future time. All prophets were given the same revelation, demographics divided their messages into groups. There may be many more religions than we know being represented during this righteous rule, and many commonly thought to be, might not. Obviously traditions and rituals will be updated as the Injeel reveals itself through the unity of the Prophets and to what ever extent technology will take us. The Revelation also speaks of this type of major unity of government and religion twice. First time doesn't work out so well for believers.
  2. Sorry baqar but you are so right. It's annoyingly right, I can see it every day. It's to the point one can't know if I'm following the right path because it crosses so many others that there no longer seems to be a true path let alone the clear path we need to find. Paved highways help us forget the Prophet's journey to God was not so comfy. Just the other day i said to someone close to me, "Go back to when you felt yourself sane and remember what was truth." The story of the village with the poisoned water deemed to make everyone insane. Before drinking it, it was decided that someone had to remember they all went insane. Somebody should have written it down. Not sure if that water was in the town of christians that dances with snakes or the colony that believes God hates everybody except them. Maybe them too. They only hurt themselves. Thinking, when the Hell's Angels block your protest maybe you should check your morals. One of my coaches I bumped up, while I was a coordinator wore a gaudy cross so I asked him what about it. He said "Jesus saves man!" I have seen absolutely nothing in his life to say he appreciates it, let alone has any inclination of finding out what his responsibility is. He doesn't feel he has a responsibility, Jesus saves, what more do you need to know? From what I have heard years after, he is not what he was while i was there. This concerns me because I put him there. Would like to have another talk with him but I'm nobody to anybody anymore. The Bible hasn't changed, The Quran hasn't changed, the truth hasn't changed, the excuses don't cut it. The definition of political correctness includes the possibility of picking up a piece of poop by the clean end. Society has grasped the clean end and is pretending it smells like roses. "Judge not lest you be judged" has been taken to a new challenge level as LBW/E freely prances down the street of every major city... The new/old rule is to love the sinner, hate the sin. Seek to save the sinner from the sin. Accept that sinners exist and a tremendously small percentage will ever turn. Encourage the few, but accept that the rest is out of our hands. There is no text says we can save them all, like there is no text gives us right to kill them all.
  3. Not to discredit the rest of your post because it very much explains how religions are shaped from a pure beginning, and beautifully put. If Imam Mahdi is to appear pre judgement, after all that is attributed to him, he must hold the same status as a prophet. To be honest, I don't have much faith in a returning Imam, but I've heard from Muslims that Jesus will be alone, Jesus will lead and Imam Mahdi will follow, Jesus and the Imam will be a team, and lately there is more opinion that Imam Mahdi will lead and Jesus will follow. In this thread I learn Jesus may not even be there. If you are wondering why I'm still confused... There is a hadith I used to find amusing. Horrendous paraphrase but my apologies, I forget the actual, maybe you know it. Basically, Jesus will come in not one but two yellow dresses and cut off all the Christians heads with a sword. I don't know how Shia view the hadith, but the amusement comes to a screeching halt when you read something eerily similar in the Revelation to John. What I am seeing is that those who love God may be submitted, or subjected to a religion, but inside they recognize the God they love and everything every preacher ever said fades. It has no meaning. In the NT it is described as "the peace that passes all understanding." I'm sure Islam has an equivalent. I'd like to hear about it.
  4. The idea of Muhammad being the "seal" of the Prophets, imo is misunderstood. There is mention in the old and new testaments of God "sealing" His Prophets. The seal is a security thing, not to do with who's last. Logically, Muhammad cannot be "The" seal if Imam Mahdi is still to come.
  5. Didn't mean to get you so excited. The Gossip of Barnabus was written some 600 years after the Quran. To whom do you give the credit, which Prophet? It must be from a prophet because it has no tangible source otherwise. It is the main "text" that brought out the swap theory so popular with Muslims now days. It has no basis except with the Sahih International translation's [suggested meanings], which imo equals brazen corruption within the very same scriptures that say woe to those who write with their own hands... When it comes to history, andres is not arguing with you, he is trying to correct you. If you have an interest in Barnabus, I'd suggest reading his Epistle. It's much shorter and much more likely to be more accurate than something that pops up around 1000 years after the fact.
  6. Oh baqar, Outside of SC you might be anonymous, but to me you are a living. breathing human being, and no dummy. If ever I was in your area it would be my pleasure to meet up with you and remove the anonymity. As for me, I live in the country surrounded by Mennonites, and Hutterites, miles from any city. The corruption I see is everything around our scriptures, (what people say the scriptures say), and not so much in them. The fact that the four Gospels are not word for word alike proves different men with different perspectives chose to write from their vantage point. They reported what they saw, they reported what they heard. None of them reported what they did not see nor hear. It's one of those cases where you gotta be there for the experience in order to record. If one records, and another doesn't, it's not a contradiction. In the same way, Gabriel did not go into details on absolutely everything, but only what Muhammad could handle, and not all history was pertinent or else it was already recorded and would be redundant. I know you guys don't talk about it. There may be more than one reason. What I was pointing out was that you are not actually reading the "Uthmanic compiled Quran" aka Warsh. You are reading the Hafs , the reader being Abu Bakr. They are tremendously similar, so no big deal. Trouble is, you did not know that of your own history. You don't want to go into other versions, I get that. I learned the old English and the KJV. Around the same time, translated from another source was the Douay Rheims, which turned out to be almost word for word, but I'm old and stuck in my ways. Actually, there were some 5000 books supposedly all true. The job of the council was to decide which were real, which were not. When the dead sea scrolls were found, they were tested against the modern Bible and found the fragments to be word for word. When the Nag Hammadi library was found, it contained many books assumed to be destroyed. I believe that some of these books could have been added to the scriptures, but for reasons were left out. e.g. The Gospel of Timothy goes into spiritual detail, probably more than the scholars could understand, and somewhat feared, therefore they left it out. In some cases it talks about evil spirits, in others it seems to describe jinn. He also speaks of the degrees of punishment in hell. A rather uneasy topic for most. As bad as it makes hell out to be, the explanations are metaphorical, because a body only burns once. I'm not finished reading the library, have seen some outrageous things, but don't see anything I'd call an out n out contradiction yet. To what extent it has changed my beliefs, not really. Trinitarians believing Jesus is God, do not want to go into further detail or anything that is not the exact word of God, (as they have in many translations), in case they learn something they don't want to. To not believe Jesus is God is downright blasphemy, and that's where I stand with most of them, and you certainly can't have me in their churches. Confused I shall remain. I know there's lots of things I don't know. It's what I don't know that I don't know that keeps me ignorant. I think it's a common struggle. I know none of us are experts. The questions I have are often diverted to the closest Imam. I was hoping they may be more of a challenge to the forum to find out first, then explain it, then we all know. If I did have a discussion with an Imam, ( I think it will eventually happen), are you going to believe what I get out of it, or hope I never mention it again?
  7. This doctrine goes back to 325AD, the first council of Nicaea in Constantinople. The biggest argument in the council was Arius, who believed Jesus was a created being. He got bounced for a while, then allowed to re enter the council, but didn't get to say much before he mysteriously died. There is actually nothing OT, nor NT that states a trinity. It does mention a Godhead, which would be God, and His top servants, but who says how many? I believe there are 7 archangels, Gabriel is the most mentioned of them from Bible and Quran. I can't tell you why the council chose to make God an all inclusive God with "partners", three of one, in one. I can't explain it so you would understand the concept because in all the years they tried to get me to understand it, I couldn't. I didn't make sense from the very scripture they were explaining it from. I didn't last long in that church because I wouldn't pretend to understand it either.
  8. Whoa, never said they contradicted. There was only one difference brought to my attention, and it wasn't a contradiction. That's never where I'm going in discussion. The Quran and the Bible have some similarities in their history. I can only assume that if God proved to protect His scriptures through a chain, then the history of the Quran would only repeat it. It might be worth noting. I am kind of confused though. The more I learn, the more confused I get. Qira'at The Warsh version was transmitted by ‘Uthman Ibn Sa‘id al-Qutbi. I believe Shia are not crazy about Uthman, but were instructed by Imam Ali to heed his version. I do remember something of Imam Ali offering his version, being rejected, and saying, "Then you will never see it again." Not sure what happened, did he bring it back to his people, or destroy it? The Hafs is the world wide most popular version, and well accepted by Shia and Sunni alike, is also the most translated, kinda like the KJV was up to 200 years ago. The interesting thing is that the Hafs reader was Abu Bakr. Not sure if Shia are as okay with that.
  9. May I applaud @andres for his patience, If you want the "Jesus is God" argument, you are barking up the wrong tree. Best to go find a trinitarian. At least if you can drop that prejudice and you might find common ground. Woe to those who write with their hand and say it's from God, for a miserable price. (slightly paraphrased) I've heard that used against the Bible many times, as if it only applies to what them Jews did, of course Christians too. Wonder if it ever occurred to anyone it's been an ongoing thing and not about to stop. Everything anyone has ever written, or mentioned with the intent to make you believe they are telling you the God's honest truth falls into this category. Add ahadith. add rumours, sprinkle with prejudice, and watch the corruption ooze. Another concept...Everything has been rewritten. everything. The Quran did not go from parts and pieces to laser printer. When the OT went from oral to written, we don't really know. How many times it was rewritten before the originals decayed, we don't know. The history of the Quran is better known. We know about Urthman's compilation, the rememberers, the transmitters, and the many versions of the Quran. Some transmitters wrote more than one version. We know the Haffs and the Warsh versions were written in slightly different dialects, and have different separations in sentencing, and a different amount of Ayats in some Suras. I always sink a bit when Muslims declare there is not a dot of difference from the perfect original. The Warsh is full of dots the Haffs doesn't have. Back then, If I had "past scriptures" and you wanted a copy, we'd go out, kill a deer, skin it, Stretch it, dry it, get the women to chew on the hide for a while, then we'd get to staining or burning each letter/symbol I had on mine onto that new skin to the best of our abilities so you would have the same. I might even make another one at the same time if my copy is old and worn. 4-5 months tops.
  10. All so confusing, glad it's not up to me. One of the questions I ask atheists is, "How is it atheism only exists in the civilized world?" It sounds like a simple answer...because we're civilized...but then it strikes them that the uncivilized world hasn't had civilized religion, yet they all know there's a higher power. They all believe in something. Paganism seems to have a gory side to it. Many did sacrifices, animal, human, precious stones, whatever. Doesn't mean they were polytheists, because they normally point to one great spirit in the sky, and many spirits, good and evil around them, in the case of a fellow named Otto Koning, a missionary who took on some rough terrain in Papua New Guinea, noted how superstition and symbolic traditions backed up by a spiritual evil ran their lives, and how his interference shaped his belief on what's really real and what's not . At the same time, on the other side of the world, the Mayan beliefs are eerily similar. There is mention in the OT that many prophets were slain by the hands of those they went to save. There are many stories of missionaries ending up in a stew pot. It's also possible that it takes 124,000 prophets just to get a few to survive.
  11. It would seem that in the OT many prophets did their time and were left to prove their own humanity later on. The fact that the Quran has chosen not to include these things does not mean they didn't happen, it means it wasn't recorded as such in the Quran. This can easily be understood as never happening, but can also be seen as the Quran not adding to what's already been written previous.
  12. @Jafar moh, If she is a prophet she will truly inspire you. You have a pure enough heart to recognize it, come back and let us know.
  13. So in the same sense, the disciples were considered as Muslims because they followed their Messenger as a Messiah, and worshiped one God.
  14. That's why I ask questions. To be honest, the amount of transliterated words you guys use often makes it hard for me to understand context. That being said, with a little help I'll do my best to keep up. If I get this straight, Shar'i excuse = jahl. Examples?
  15. Would that include living in a country that is not ruled by Sharia law?