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Doctor Tareen

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  1. Sahaba part Two

    Assalamo-alaikum. Apologies for getting back late. While i will respond to the major issue, i thought i can address this quickly. Shiaman and your kind self made a case on the basis that What ever Prophet SAW say or does is by the command of Allah. So this statement has ramifications also. A) So are we agreeing on this that Prophet SAW chose and ordered Abubakr RA to lead the paryer of all Momineen and it was not by his choice but it was commanded by Allah ? By the statement made earlier answer is yes. It was Allah who must have advised, commanded Prophet SAW to lead the prayers as Prophet SAW by himself does or say nothing. I imagine this may not be an agreed position of all Shia brothers to accept that Allah commanded for Abukar RA to lead the prayers. So if they doubt then the statement proves wrong and can not be applied selectively in issue of Qirtas only. B) Well i will disagree here as Prophet SAW never intended to travel alone. He went to pick him up and took him along. But if you still have an alternate explanation to avoid giving benefit to Abubakr RA then similarly it can be applied to Maula Ali RA. What if one says that there was no one else to take over Imanat at home so he handed over to Maula Ali Pak RA and left him in his bed. But certainly that was not the case. We consider it an honor of Maula Ali RA and will not argue to take away what has been bestowed upon him by Prophet SAW and Allah. I should apply same to Abu Bakr Siddqiue RA. A step further is that their journey was mentioned in Quran as well, surely it was a blessed company. Prophet SAW taking AbuBakr RA along must be a command by Allah as per statement made earlier or otherwise statement proves wrong. C) Marrying some one or saying something or doing something can not be but according to Commandment of Allah as statement made earlier. I will quote again,'' Prophet SAW say or do nothing but in accordance with commandments of Allah''. If it is his own choice but not always ALLAHs command then statement is incorrect and does not apply only in Qirtas issue. Will post other response in a while
  2. Sahaba part Two

    Where is that Waseeah ? I though you believed in Waseeah mentioned in Bukhari ? If not then show me the waseeah which was made for people like me ? If Prophet SAW didnt make one then we are back to square one. Why would not make one as he was commanded by Allah...... to make waseeah for people like us, let accept your view
  3. Sahaba part Two

    So as it turns out the Prophet did obey Allah. Please confirm if the above is delirium and ravings of a lunatic or does it seem like the Prophet (saw) was completely within his senses. Above narration you quoted is not telling you the time period Prophet SAW made those instructions. These were given in later 3 days before his death and there is no report which suggested that Prophet SAW remained confused but rather it is well reported that he gained consciousness and in fact managed to pray along side his beloved friend Abu Bakr RA who was leading the prayers as instructed by Prophet SAW and Allah (as per your principle). Check other narrations in Bukhari n Muslim where you will have more details of when were those instructions given. Ibn e Abbas RA then would have no reason to cry if there was indeed a Waseeah made on the same day. Surely if I accept your narrative that the Prophet (saw) was delirious, then it would mean that the Prophet (saw) told Abu Bakr to lead prayers in a state of delirium as well. Unless you mean to tell me that the Prophet (saw) was only delirious when it was convenient for the sahaba??? This is where you are trying to look for an escape. First you need to prove that Prophet SAW can not be in a state of delirium or confusion. Then if you can not prove that and still insist that it can not happen and all he said and did was with ALLAHs command then you have to accept that instructing Abubakr RA to lead prayers of all Momineen was also a commandment of Allah and Prophet SAW obeyed Allah. THEN you can ask me after accepting all that, whether Abu Bakr SiddiqueRA was instructed in the state of confusion or not according to my opinion. You can't skip everything and jump to a new question. First state your position here then ask me a question which i am happy to respond. Are you questioning me or Bukhari+Muslim??? Or is this waseeah not good enough for you? Why would i question Bukahri n Muslim ? I am asking you my friend, do you accept what is mentioned in Bukhari and Muslim is the Waseeah which Prophet SAW wanted to write at his death bed on thursday which you call day of calamity ? You accept it and i answer your question. If you do not believe this was the waseeah he wanted to make then you seem to be failing to answer why Prophet SAW didn't make one as it must have been commanded by Allah. There is so much which has been over looked and so far i have not seen you able to make a case. You have made claims but you could not prove it. I will answer Intellectual Resistance in detail as it seems he really tried to go in depth of my arguments
  4. Sahaba part Two

    I know it is all in books of Ahl e Sunnah. There is nothing solid reported in Shia books anyways. I asked if all Shia believe that was the waseeah which Prophet SAW wanted to write (as in Sunni Books) or do they have another opinion that it was a different Waseeah he wanted to write on his death bed (as claimed that Propeht SAW was announcing his successor) ? From Shia perspective that significant waseeah was never made. Who ever you blame for this but it was not made, so if it was ALLAHs command then why was it not made ? you are only left with 2 options here my friend. 1) Accept that Allah didnt command to make Waseeah or else Prophet SAW had disobeyed (naoozBILLAH). 2) Accept what ever waseeah Propeht SAW made written in Sunni books and stop spreading this story that it was an announcement of a successor which was prevented.
  5. Sahaba part Two

    Are you sure that this was the Waseeah which Prophet wanted to make so NO ONE GOES ASTRAY ????? Can you get all my Shia friends agree on this ?? So this all we are left with now. I am sorry for this my friend but you clutching at straws.
  6. Sahaba part Two

    4) Now comes another question which Shiaman was asking earlier that everything Prophet SAW say or do is from Allah. Or he implies that Prophet SAW do not say or do anything but when Allah commands him so.He quotes verses and narrations and uses his own interpretations. It would mean that even in state of confusion if Prophet SAW said anything it must be the command of Allah. To me this is last defensive argument left regarding this incidence. I have been explaining all aspects separately so far in details and waiting to see if anyone can present an argument or evidence stronger than i did. But this is the only one my friend is left with and i think it is time to address this now. In this narrative there is one major weakness which demolishes the whole narrative. We all know that Prophet SAW never gave any Waseeah. So now are we saying that Allah commanded Prophet SAW to make Waseeah and then he did not do it ? This mounts to disobedience which we can never imagine. This is more of an insult to Prophet SAW than claiming that Prophet SAW might be confused. This act of Prophet SAW not giving or writing Waseeah totally destroys the narrative. If Prophet SAW was ordered by Allah to make Waseeah, then no one on earth can stop Prophet SAW to make one. He had 3 more days to do so if not just thursday but he did not make any Waseeah. To me this will be an insult to Prophet SAW who was ordered or commanded by Allah to write a Waseeah but he could not do it. What ever excuse one would look for, no matter how many times one abuses Sahaba Kiraam RA, one can never explain this fact that there was no Waseeah. Many friends have called it a Fard or obligatory upon Prophet to make Waseeah and blaming Umar RA for what he never did. Non of them comprehends the out come of their narrative. To me this argument is a total failure. I can never believe that Allah ordered Prophet SAW to make a Waseeah or It was an obligation to do so and Prophet SAW did not do it. As Allah mentions in Quran and my Shia friends love to quote it every where,'' O Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allâh will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allâh guides not the people who disbelieve. There is another aspect which Shiaman and likeminded may have to confront with while adapting this narrative that Prophet SAW never does anything or say anything but with orders from Allah. Then i have few questions. A) Are we willing to accept that Prophet SAW chose Abu Bakr RA to lead the prayers because Allah commanded him to do so ? Even if some one claims that Maula Ali was not there (Which I disagree) still Prophet asked Abu Bakr RA to lead the prayers in last 3 days while he was sick. That must be a command by Allah then. B) Are we ready to accept that Allah commanded Prophet SAW to take Abu Bakr RA along to accompany him in his journey to Madeena ? It must be Allah who chose a companion for Prophet in his most difficult journey because Prophet by himself do or say nothing but follow the commands of Allah as claimed. C) Are we ready to accept that who ever Prophet SAW chose to marry in his life , he was commanded by Allah ? Who ever he shared his bed with was commanded by Allah as he himself could not do or say anything by himself ? There is more to ask and it may not suit my friends in many other narratives they made up in hate of beloved companions of Prophet SAW. To me seeking refuge or shelter under the shed of this argument or narrative is not an intelligent thinking. Regards
  7. Sahaba part Two

    3) Then comes your point, that let us assume if Prophet SAW did say something or claim something. So we are in a scenario where we assume that there was a Waseeah made in a supposed state of confusion or delirium. What would be the status of that Waseeah then ? I guess we should be able to understand here also what companions were discussing 1400 years ago was the same issue we are doing today. This has reached to us in the form a report by Ibne Abbas RA. They discussed the same whether it is a form of confusion, is Prophet mentally stable enough to make statement or Waseeah ? At least this should help people understand it better what made Prophet SAW companions to argue upon. We do not take any statement when an ill person is in form of confusion. We do not take consent from a person for any operation or procedure in state of confusion. One has to be well oriented and well aware. We call it as one who is well oriented in time, place and person. We would rather ask next of kin to consent. One who is confused or drowsy or with altered consciousness is not to make decisions about himself even, about others is a far case. In this case of Prophet SAW, I imply that any statement made in a state of confusion would be compared with Quran, and early sayings of the Prophet SAW when he was fully aware and conscious. Any statement made in a state of confusion which is in conflict with Quran or early Prophetic traditions will be questionable and raise doubts. This is a rational argument i believe. It reminds me of a beautiful saying of one of Shia Imams, likely of Jaffer as Sadiq RA who said,'' If you receive a quote of mine and find it against Qura'nic injunctions, throw it out''.
  8. Sahaba part Two

    2) Now comes your question that what if prophet SAW claimed any thing or said anything during that state of confusion ? Or what would have been our stance if Prophet SAW indeed had given us a Waseeah ? A good question indeed. Let us see what actually happened and how we can come up to a conclusion. A narrative which addresses all queries should prevail but not the one which raises more questions with no good answers and leads to more complications with no solutions. We know that there was no Waseeah at the end which in itself is an answer that Prophet SAW never said anything or gave any instructions while he was supposedly in state of confusion. He showed his intention but he did not give any Waseaah and that is by the will of Allah as we believe. So Allah has saved us from a situation which would have been more troubling than this one which we are having now. Allah knows better and Allah made sure we never faced such situation. All we received from Prophet SAW is in the best of health with not a single doubt on his mental and physical capacity. That is why Allah revealed,'' Alayouma akmal-to Lakum deenakum Wa at-mam -o alaikum nemati'' so Allah perfected his religion before any illness got closer to our beloved Prophet SAW. Even we received instructions from Prophet SAW in his last 3 days which are reported by Ibne Abbas and that is when he had a period of improvement after regaining consciousness. He even attended a prayer standing along side Abu Bakr Siddique RA when he was feeling better. So the fact is that we have not received anything from Prophet SAW where any one can ever claim that it was in the state of confusion or mental impairment.
  9. Sahaba part Two

    @Intellectual Resistance You are welcome in the discussion and I must say that you raised very sensible and valid points regarding my analysis. So I am quite happy to address this to my capacity. It is important to understand that delirium is temporary phenomenon associated with an underlying illness like an infection. There are variety of different causes for this. What we know is that Prophet's illness was manifested by high temperature, Severe headache, Weakness, Restlessness and epoisodes of fainting, losing consciuosness and drowsiness. 1) I explained in my post that Prophet SAW is reported to have episodes of loss of consciousness and he was intermittently drowsy. This means that he had episodes where he had lost his awareness of the surroundings, unable to repond which is mentally and physically both. Drowsiness and loss of consciousness is not just a physical but a mental phenomenon as well. One can not be called drowsy or in a state of unconsciousness while he is only paralysed but fully awake. Similarly one can not be unconscious but running around at the same time. It is combination of physical and mental features. We have different gradings of consciousness which is based on a grading system called Glasgow Coma scale. Confusion is only an early stage of the illness with altered consciousness while drowsiness and loss of consciousness is a further deterioration of the same process. Coma is an advanced stage when there is total lack of any response physical and mental. I tried to emphasise that while we see clear evidence of Prophet SAW becoming drowsy and losing consciousness & fainting, we should accept the fact that being confused or lack of awareness & disorientation is part of the same process. I see no reason why would some one believe that Prophet SAW can be Drowsy, Unconscious, Fainting but can not be confused. Both are forms of alterred consciousness. Becoming drowsy and unconscious is worse than having some loss of awareness, disorientation and impaired responsiveness in a state confusion which is one of the features of delirium. So it proves that Prophet SAW suffered from an illness and he was no different from any other person with similar illness in terms of its signs and symptoms. I have not seen a rational argument by any one where one can produce an evidence against my findings related to Prophets SAW illness. If any one differs here and makes another claim then it is upon him to produce the evidence to support that difference. It has to be in relation to my argument. Mere refutation with no evidence to back up ones claim does not work.
  10. Sahaba part Two

    Is that a response ? It is disappointing to see you have not understood all the points. You rather have taken an escape and chosen a poor argument of mental vs physical. I must refer you back to my point 1b where i described mental aspect of the illness. Please take another look and try to understand with an open mind without any bias. Forget about Umar Farooq RA for time being at-least to understand the real issue. I will respond to our friend Intellectual resistance who seems to understand my points far better and raises very relevant questions. In that you may find more depth in our arguments. Once we are over with this you will see NEXT argument. We are done with the first one yet.
  11. Sahaba part Two

    Please do not feel bound to respond if you do not feel like. Consider it an academic discussion only. Let it be like that. Neither i blamed you for any blasphemy nor you should do it. At the end i will be respectful to you for your opinions. I carry the right to differ like you have the same right to differ from my opinions. At least by our discussion readers will have a chance to analyse different perspectives and they can decide themselves what they think is right and wrong. We are not winning or losing here. We are having an academic discussion. Cheers.
  12. Sahaba part Two

    I will answer on behalf of all shias in the World that 'NO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAW) CANNOT BE IN A STATE OF DELIRIUM'. So your claim is on the behalf of all shia and i take your word. Unless if some one dares to differ from you among your fellows. You claim that 'NO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAW) CANNOT BE IN A STATE OF DELIRIUM'. Prove it my friend and bring your evidence. What evidence do you have to make a claim that Prophet SAW can not be in a state of a delirium ? Here is my argument and see the supporting evidence. I want you to respond to every point i make specifically. What is delirium ? I explained earlier that it is a state in which a person suffers from confusion, disorientation, drowsiness, Fluctuating consciousness, restlessness, irritability, agitation, hallucination (visual or auditory) and it is temporary. It occurs with an underlying severe illness (any severe infection). It tends to improve once the underlying condition improves. So it is a part of an illness or an infection so besides many other symptoms and signs one can suffer from delirium as well. By claiming that Prophet SAW can not be in a state of delirium it is implied that usual medical phenomenon does not apply to Prophet SAW. In other words you are claiming that Prophet SAW does not respond physically to an illness like other human beings do. While you will prove this with your evidence, i will show you why i believe that suffering from delirium is like as suffering from any other form of illness 1) We find in authentic narrations that Prophet SAW fell sick before he passed away. Do we ever try to understand what is that sickness ? Why Prophet SAW got sick ? How come he responded physically to an illness and became sick and suffered from a variety of symptoms and signs like these and faced difficulties associated with that illness. He became affected by illness and his physical response suggested that it followed the usual medial course of an illness a) Prophet SAW had a Headache as part of his illness. Why would he get a headache ? Ordinary people get headaches and Prophet SAW also gets headache in the illness which ultimately caused his death. This proves Prophets SAW illness was manifested with usual signs and symptoms associated with the illness and there was nothing unusual. b) Prophet SAW became drowsy intermittently or had fluctuating levels of consciousness. What does that mean ? Drowsy means unable to respond to physical stimuli, total unawareness of the surroundings. Drowsiness is a step further in level of consciousness than just confusion in a delirium. In confusion a person remains alert and responds to stimuli but remains disoriented while in drowsiness and state of unconsciousness one loses all awareness (worse than confusion) and shows poor response to any external stimuli. So if we see Prophet SAW can get ill and drowsy, in and out of consciousness, it makes no sense to claim that Prophet can not be in a state of delirium or confusion which relatively is better sign in disease than being drowsy and unconscious. c) During Prophet SAW illness he felt so weak and tired. He had headache and also was reported to have high temperature. It is reported that he was in a lot of pain. This all proves that Prophet SAW bodily response to an illness was just according to the usual medical phenomenon. There is nothing which suggests that Prophet SAW bodily response was any different from other patients with who would have similar illness. d) Prophet SAW was very weak and was so much affected by the illness that he could not lead the prayers and had to miss that. Why ? That is because he was physically not able to do that what he does in normal circumstances. Prophet SAW physical ability was affected to an extent that he could not stand up on his feet and could not walk down to Masjid where he could lead the prayers. This proves that Prophet SAW suffered in accordance with usual pattern of an illness. How come ALLAHs Prophet be showing signs of physical inability to lead the prayers when we believe that he can not be ever in a state of delirium. These are all just signs and symptoms of an illness. Pain, high Temperature, Muscle weakness, Restlessness, Confusion, Irritability are all signs of a disease or illness. Why do you have problem with only one sign which is confusion. Certainly it is a false narrative. So now we understand that suffering from delirium is merely a part of an illness and not a different or an alien phenomenon. It by no means degrades or insults our Prophet SAW rather it only shows that he suffered with illness and took all the pain and distress like everyone else as a human. He was not free of all these natural phenomenon. If any one disagrees in this regard then he should present his evidence and respond to the points i made. This is my first point, i will have 2 more arguments after this which i will discuss once you respond to this one comprehensively one by one. Regards
  13. Sahaba part Two

    I completely agree with you that Prophet SAW is infallible. But our common friend Sky web have to explain how he interprets the warnings given to Prophet SAW and will it have any affect on his status ? Since it is his principle so he has to explain. When i ask question i am challenging his weak principle. By no means i am degrading Prophet SAW. He is the best in the world and Sahaba are dust of his feet. Who on earth can dare to compare Prophet SAW with any one else.
  14. Sahaba part Two

    Let me remind you that you said there are no traditions about Umar being the one who called the Prophet delirious. ..... Show me the tradition my friend ? Or there is no argument then. It is quite simple really. You said NO traditions blame Umar, Shibli states "SOME TRADITIONS" blame Umar. .... Again show me the tradition please if you have any. Shibli is casting doubt on this event happening. You affirmed it and believe it happened ....... Shibli discussed both perspectives. He is raising very valid questions only but not delivering a verdict. He is an eminent scholar, he touches all aspects in an academic manner. You will only comprehend this if you open up your mind and get over with your bias. I have discussed only one aspect which is that if this indeed happened. I tend to take shia perspective of a narrative and show all the weaknesses with in. I already told you to ask Shibli since he clearly stated "SOME TRADITIONS REPORT....UMAR said it" ....... So you have no evidence if Umar Farooq RA said this ? Good that all you have is Shiblis twisted statement. At least it is proven that what ever Umar Farooq RA is blamed for, there is no evidence in any narration but all you have is Shibli saying. I explained earlier that Shibli refers to all narrations where critics attribute these words to Umar RA. Still if Shibli twisted statement is your evidence then i can only sympathise my friend. I will answer on behalf of all shias in the World that NO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAW) CANNOT BE IN A STATE OF DELIRIUM...... Lets address this claim now in detail and see how baseless is the claim.
  15. Sahaba part Two

    I am not saying this, your friend Skyweb is inventing this principle of warnings. You should question him not me, why he considers warning as a basis of classification. He should explain what does it mean to him when Allah warns his Prophet ? What is the status of that warning and how does it affect a Prophet ?