Jump to content

Munzir Ahmed

Banned
  • Content count

    143
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Munzir Ahmed

  • Rank
    Member

Profile Information

  • Religion
    Islam

Previous Fields

  • Gender
    Male

Recent Profile Visitors

288 profile views
  1. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    The system you are forcing me to believe has no basis. Assumptions are not the subsititue for truth. Prove your claims. So far you are failed to verify what you are claiming. I have proven mine. Read following post. Imam Ali for whom you are doing all this himself never used any such thing as an argument neither to abu bakr nor to muawiya. In fact gave bayah to first three caliphs and validated the shura process and later used it as an argument against muawiya and justified his own position of being the caliph by the same process. This all is as per shia history. I repeat again: If Imam ALi really considered saqifa and shura process invalid and against Allah's permission then it make him a hypocrite by getting the caliphate till his last breath by the same process and using this as an argument to legitimate himself in front of muawiya as in letter 6 and calling it pleasure of Allah there. More from his sayings is here http://www.*************/2015/12/12/nahjul-balagha-contradicts-shia-teachings/. This is my last post on this subject. w.salam
  2. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    Wrong statement. Every caliph (ulil amr) is an Imam (leader) but not every Imam (leader) a caliph (ulil amr). Out of 12 Imams whom you consider divinely appointed, only first two became the caliphs (ulil amr) and that also via consultation process. No one else. He was declared as mawla at ghadir not as caliph or ulil amr. No one from sahabah and ahlebayt considered ghadir in meaning of caliphate at that time. There is no evidence on this from letters, sermons and sayings of Imam Ali. Rather he defended the shura system. http://www.*************/2015/12/12/nahjul-balagha-contradicts-shia-teachings/. During rida wars Imam Ali was also on abu bakr side. At saqifa leader of ansaar sad bin ubadah did not accpet abu baklr as caliph rather he wanted that position for himself. But Abu bakr did not declare him an apostate. Likewise Imam ALi also not declared muawiya an apostate. Its all in accordance with ahlul sunnah.
  3. Imam Ali letter to Mu'awiya?

    Read all points with open mind. Dont always pick and choose. May Allah guide you.
  4. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    Dont put your ignorance on my shoulders. I said: Dont twist my words in order to support your assumptions. I have already answered you all your questions in my various posts on various threads. Go and read again. I dont want to repeat the same stuff again and again like you. The entire basis on which your assumption is based 28:68 has been refuted and proved wrong. So everything that follows it is meaningless.
  5. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    These are not my assumptions but facts from both shia and sunni history. Verse of consultation explains this verse and the verse after it 4:59. Verse 28:68 do not mention any amr let alone caliphate, its just your assumption that its about caliphate only. In fact verse is about shirk. So your claim as per this verse is meaningless and is invalid. Verse of ulil amr 4:59 is consistant with verse of consultation, amruhum shuran baynahum. THus they consulted for their amr of caliphate and chose an ulil amr. Both verses do mention clearly word amr. No any assumptions. This also has support in prophetic ahadith some of which I quoted in my last posts, also in history and in words ofImam Ali, in letter 6 and in other section of nahjul balagha here http://www.*************/2015/12/12/nahjul-balagha-contradicts-shia-teachings/. No not at all. Show me where did I say prophet left the ummah misguided? rather I said he left without appointing anyone as a caliph. Same was the condition of Imam Ali when he died. Dont twist and turn my words. I am in fact quoting ahadith of prophet showing you his true teachings. Along with words of Imam Ali legtimizing the shura process by which he also became the caliph. And if Imam ALi considered saqifa and shura process invalid and against Allah's permission (your narrative as per your sources) then it make him a hypocrite by getting the caliphate till his alst breath by the same process and using this as an argument to legitimate himself in front of muawiya as in letter 6 and calling it pleasure of Allah there.
  6. Imam Ali letter to Mu'awiya?

    1. Let me clarify once again that for guidance it is Book of Allah and sayings of Prophet, job of caliph is to work within the boundaries of these two. Not to recieve any new guidance from Allah and to deliver it to people. Thus obediecne to caliph/ulil amr is made conditional, see Nisa 59. Verse is available as I shown you in other thread which is verifiable as well from prophetic ahadith, words of Imam Ali, from history and from sayings of a vast number of prophetic companions. Unlike the system of imamah which is nothing but a derivation from some unambiguous and unrelated verses of quran, which also has no any basis in ahadith rasool and in the history. I am quoting those verses here again. [36-43] Whatever you have been given, is merely a provision for the transitory life of this world, and that which is with Allah is better as well as more lasting. That is for those who have believed and put their trust in their Lord. Who refrain from gross sins and indecencies. Who, when they are angry, forgive. Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. Who spend out of what We have given them a sustenance. Who, when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves. The recompense of evil is a like evil, then whoever pardons and seeks reconcilement, his reward is with Allah. Allah does not like the wrongdoers. And those who avenge themselves after they have been wronged, cannot be held blameworthy, for blameworthy indeed are those who oppress others and commit excesses in the land without any right. For such people there is a painful torment. However, the one who practices patience and is forgiving. these indeed are works of great courage and resolution. Here it is mentioned as on eof the quality of believers among others. You accept all other qualities but not this one. Caliphate is the most important of all affairs. [159-160] (O Messenger,) it is a great mercy of Allah that you are very gentle and lenient towards them: for, had you been harsh and hard hearted, they all would have broken away from you: so pardon them and implore Allah to forgive them, and take counsel with them in the conduct of the affairs; then, when once you make up your mind (to do a thing), trust in Allah (and do it). Allah likes those who trust in Him in whatever they do. If Allah helps you, no power can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there, then, after Him to help you? Therefore, true believers should trust in Allah alone. This is the system of government mentioned in quran and is described as one of the best qulaity of believers, unlike imamah. Letter 6 of Imam Ali mentioned in OP also supports this and declare is as the pleasure of Allah. 2. The other letters you shared neither negate or refute this consultation nor it support your claims for imamah. Imam Ali did not use the argument to any previous caliph and not even to muawiya that only Allah has the right to choose imam/caliph after prophet and that is me and after me my son Hassan, and after him my another son Hussain and son on (which is your theory). Truth is that Imam Ali wholeheatedly accepted this system and gave his bayah without any force or hindrance to all previous caliphs and when he himself became the caliph by the same process he also defended it and declared it right of muhajirun and ansaar and said it is with the pleasure of Allah. This argument is much more stronger and clearer than the other letter you shared which also mention wrong facts. Rather Muhajirun at saqifa praised and acknowledged the merits of ansaar and quoted the prophetic hadith which say caliphate remains with the quresh. Thus this letter carries no weight. And the interpretation for letter 6 given here https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-6-muawiyah-ibn-abi-sufyan is just a comment by some random person (not by Imam himself). So its nothing but just an assumed meaning which carry no weight in front of clear words of Imam Ali. If you ask any primary school child even he will tell you what does it actually mean. Honestly speaking, vast part of nahjul balagha confirms, verify and supports the system of consultation ascompared to divine imamah. Proof for such claim is here [EDIT] 3. So Imam Ali had no courage to say the same on face of those usurprs but was able to lift the giant door of khaybar all alone. Btw: this as well do not mention your golden argument that only Allah can choose the caliph and that chosen caliph is me (Imam Ali). Moreover, if you compare this to letter 6 then it portray Imam Ali as a hypocrite. Because if Imam ALi considered saqifa and shura process invalid and against Allah's permission (your narrative as per your sources) then it make him a hypocrite by getting the caliphate till his last breath by the same process and using this as an argument to legitimate himself in front of muawiya as per letter 6 and calling it pleasure of Allah there. Following quote from the author of most famous & modern shia tafsir Al-Mizan is also consistant with letter 6 and to ahlul sunnah narrative. Shia Ayatollah Mohammad Hussain Tabatabai said: This group (the one who chosed Abu Bakr) which was later to form the majority, set forth in great haste to select caliph for the Muslims with the aim of ensuring the welfare of the community and solving its immediate problems. Source: A series of islam and shia» p 56, 1-st edition
  7. 28:68 & Saqifah

    Verse 28:68 do not mention any amr let alone caliphate, its just your assumption that its about caliphate only. In fact verse is about shirk. So your claim as per this verse is meaningless and is invalid. Verse of ulil amr 4:59 is consistant with verse of consultation, amruhum shuran baynahum. THus they consulted for their amr of caliphate and chose an ulil amr. Both verses do mention clearly word amr. No any assumptions. This also has support in prophetic ahadith some of which I quoted in my last posts, also in history and in words ofImam Ali, in letter 6 and in other section of nahjul balagha here http://www.*************/2015/12/12/nahjul-balagha-contradicts-shia-teachings/. w.salam
  8. 28:68 & Saqifah

    This is in contradiction with 28:68, no one is authorized to chose waliullah, wasi-ur-rasoolallah, khalifatullah & hujjatullah. No this is exactly in accordance with the amruhum shura baynahum command of Allah. These words of Imam Ali are the practical implimentation or validation of shura command in Quran. it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. Verse of ulil amr 4:59 is consistant with verse of consultation, amruhum shuran baynahum. THus they consulted for their amr of caliphate and chose an ulil amr. Both verses do mention clearly word amr. No any assumptions. This also has support in prophetic ahadith some of which I quoted in my last posts, also in history and in words of Imam Ali letter 6 and in other sections of nahjul balagha, see here http://www.*************/2015/12/12/nahjul-balagha-contradicts-shia-teachings/. Now coming back to your claims which are full of assumptions. Verse 28:68 do not mention any amr let alone caliphate, its just your assumption that say its about caliphate only. In fact verse is related to shirk. So your claim as per this verse is meaningless and is invalid, hence rejected so dont repeat that again ever. Pleasure of Allah! Do you know who owns that? Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207: Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207: وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْرِي نَفْسَهُ ابْتِغَاءَ مَرْضَاتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ رَءُوفٌ بِالْعِبَادِ And among men is he who sells himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Affectionate to the servants. (English - Shakir) Again the man Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). Talking about pleasure of Allah & avoiding to take Ali as your Mowla, that is sufficient for proving who is behaving like Muawiyah (L). Those were words of Imam Ali, not mine. So basically you are teaching him the lessons. Go ahead. Do you have any similar saying from Imam Ali justifying your claims for 28:68. Whereas as you can clearly see for consultation verse there is letter 6 from Imam Ali justifying the command of Allah and validating the shura system. He is mawla of every believer, alhamdulilah. Difference is only of meaning. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman were your marjas? In saqifa, ignorants have elected the Khalifah not the marja. And for marja & faqih we have this verse in Quran: Surah At-Taubah, Verse 122: وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنفِرُوا كَافَّةً فَلَوْلَا نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَائِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُوا فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُوا قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious? (English - Shakir) No. Neither they are caliphs today nor are marja today. They were of their time. Same applys to Imam Ali. As per your concept of Imamah your imam is 12th one not the 1st one. Remember that. This verse in fact reject your divine imamah concept which says for guidance there are only 12 imams/caliphs for whole world. How is this even possible. And out of 12, 11 imams for about 250 years and the last one till qiyamam and who in fact is absent from his post for over thousands years. Makes no sense. Practicallt this so called system of imamah is not practical and contain many flaws. That is why Allah sent down the instruction that necessary steps should be taken for the integration of the Islamic Community so that it may keep pace with the immense increase in its number. Therefore some people should be brought out from every habitation and taught and trained in the requirements of Islam and these in their turn should teach and train their own people so that the whole Muslim population should understand Islam and obtain the knowledge of the limits prescribed by Allah. Let me tell you who were the cowards. Those who ran away from the battles of Uhad, Khandaq, Hunayn etc. Your chosen ones were running like Usayn Bolt in these battles. If you think taqaiyyah is the indication of cowardice, you must register your complaint to Allah why He has praised in Quran, the one who did the taqaiyyah : Surah Ghafir, Verse 28: وَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ مِّنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَكْتُمُ إِيمَانَهُ أَتَقْتُلُونَ رَجُلًا أَن يَقُولَ رَبِّيَ اللَّهُ وَقَدْ جَاءَكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ وَإِن يَكُ كَاذِبًا فَعَلَيْهِ كَذِبُهُ وَإِن يَكُ صَادِقًا يُصِبْكُم بَعْضُ الَّذِي يَعِدُكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ كَذَّابٌ And a believing man of Firon's people who hid his faith said: What! will you slay a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought to you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you (with); surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar: (English - Shakir) That believing man was not appointed as a divine guide as you claim for ahlebayt. He was not supposed to guide people like you claim for ahlebayt. So your example is useless here. Wrong analogy. For detailed answer on taqqiyah is here:
  9. 1 out of 73 sects - Analysis

    But to whom you consider your divine imams were engaged in taqqiyah even when at home in front of their followers and family instead of struggling hard with their wealth and lives in the way of Allah. In contrast those who were not divine imams from ahlebayt in fact revolted against the tyrants of their time and thus sacrificed their lives and never chosed the path of cowards i.e taqqiyah. This verse indeed define them. Those who sit at home and do taqqiyah and let their followers to go astray instead of guiding them properly (which they are supposed to do) and those who openly raise voices against tyrants and fight with them can not be the same. “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath God promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward” – Quran 4:95 And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of God and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, “Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?” – Quran 4:75 because most of your imams were busy in saving their own lives by doing taqqiyah. Who were in fact supposed to guide people. The above verse makes it evident that fighting in the cause of God is to free people from oppression, persecution from tyrants. verse 4:95, Allah says, how can those who fight and those who do nothing be the same level (in reward) in the sight of Him? Of course they’re not equal! Those who fought and helped the oppressed will get reward from their Lord. Our prophet saww was commanded to strive hard without any fear unlike your divine guides who almost every day performed taqqiyah. ANd the last one is still in the state of fear for over thousand years. O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. (Surah At-Tawba, 73) Shia narrative of their divine imams is really laughable. Go ahead with your picking and choosing of verses of Quran and make up your theories as much as you want. w.salam
  10. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    At that time Imam Ali was the chosen caliph via consultation. So it was his job to do what you are saying. But Imam did not declare him an apostate. Its not double standard, we are following Imam Ali. Imam Ali was also elected by people as 4th caliph. That was also not by Allah. Later Imam Hassan was also chosed by people not by Allah. After this Imam Hussain was niether chosed by people not by Allah. If you think they and remaining nine others were chosen by Allah then show me Allah's word for each and every Imam?
  11. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    Then why are you interfering when matter was dicided by Allah swt to be conducted via consultation. Both prophetic narrations and history confirm this. Unlike your claims. Did the verse 28:68 mention caliphate, which is the basis of all your claims on choice is not yours. Which is in fact a verse on shirk. Ok if its right of Allah then show me for your every Imam a word from Allah on their appointment, if you are truthful? Its not against any verse of Quran. Its itself in Quran mentioned as a quality of believers. Thus they chosed caliphs from themselves via consultation. Imam Ali and Imam Hassan were also part of this process and also became caliphs via the same. This is well known reality. WHy consultation was only for certain affairs, why are you excluding caliphate. Your first argument was for guidance we have Allah chosen caliphs/imams and now is saying there is consulation also but for certain affairs. But the fact is that verse of shura mentions no any exception. It talks about all affairs, most important of which is caliphate all other affairs come after this.
  12. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    If prophet saww had appointed or left any divine leader then saqifa would not have happened at first place. And later all accepted the saqifa incident including Imam Ali, see reports on his bayah to abu bakr. At that time no one including Imam Ali argued like you. If yes show me the example. Did anyone talk at that time about ghadir being divine declaration or anyother thing like this. Your theory is good but in reality carry no weight. The one who became caliph after prophet in reality was rightly guided. Prophetic ahadith confirm this. But here you are looking like a quranist. Who is just playing games with quran taking parts of verses without considring the context and the purpose of revelation. First fulfil the part obey Rasool then come to ulil amr which is conditional. Letter 6 defend the caliphate of first 3. Which you are not digesting since you are only taking part of letter and have nothing to do with part which says it is with pleasure of Allah. While the letter 28 do not refute their caliphate. Its just an argument directed towards muawiyah. Did Imam say the same to first three on their face? Moreover the argument mentioned in the letter with respect to muhajirun is not correct. They never said this at saqifa. Rather they mentioned prophetic hadith which says caliphate remains with quresh. I will respond to this later in other thread. Honestly it carrys no weight compared to letter 6. Now you are repeating the old stuff which has already been answered. I have already shown you the verses you asked. WHich are in accordance with the reality, with prophetic narrations and with letter 6 as well. Unlike your claims for which you have shown no proof yet, you are following only conjecture.
  13. 28:68 & Saqifah

    Here is the verse of Quran which you are asking. Not only a verse in fact there is an entire surah with name shura (consultation), while same is not present in your case. I am quoting here the entire passage not just a verse out of context. [36-43] Whatever you have been given, is merely a provision for the transitory life of this world, and that which is with Allah is better as well as more lasting. That is for those who have believed and put their trust in their Lord. Who refrain from gross sins and indecencies. Who, when they are angry, forgive. Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. Who spend out of what We have given them as sustenance. Who, when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves. The recompense of evil is a like evil, then whoever pardons and seeks reconcilement, his reward is with Allah. Allah does not like the wrongdoers. And those who avenge themselves after they have been wronged, cannot be held blameworthy, for blameworthy indeed are those who oppress others and commit excesses in the land without any right. For such people there is a painful torment. However, the one who practices patience and is forgiving. these indeed are works of great courage and resolution. This thing has been counted here as one of the best quality of believers. Clearly an opposition to your version of choice is not yours (which you have taken out of context from quran which in fact is talking about matters related to shirk). If choice is not ours then why to do consultation. The verse says conduct your affairs with mutual consultation, caliphate is surely the biggest affair of all. In contrast to conduct the affairs of collective life without consultation is not only the way of ignorance but also a clear violation of the law prescribed by Allah. This law became violeted from the time when Yazid came into power. He was the first one who was made caliph without consultation. So blame is on wrongdoers not on the precribed rule by Allah. Ahadith also tells us that there will be both good and bad caliphs in this ummah. Imam Ali also once cursed people of kufa that may Allah give me good followers and them a bad ruler. Now read letter 6 once again in light of this verse. Just like muawiyah this letter is also a reference to all those who reject the shura system of caliphate. Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. And prophet saww also used to consult with muhajirun and ansaar and with other tribal chiefs for their collective affairs like battles, etc except in cases where direct revelation came. This consultation was also a part of revelation enjoined by Allah swt during the prophethood of prophet saww. Thus making it an important pillar of islam. [159-160] (O Messenger,) it is a great mercy of Allah that you are very gentle and lenient towards them: for, had you been harsh and hard hearted, they all would have broken away from you: so pardon them and implore Allah to forgive them, and take counsel with them in the conduct of the affairs; then, when once you make up your mind (to do a thing), trust in Allah (and do it). Allah likes those who trust in Him in whatever they do. If Allah helps you, no power can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there, then, after Him to help you? Therefore, true believers should trust in Allah alone. This is the system of government mentioned in quran and is described as one of the best qulaity of believers, unlike imamah. Now answer me following: Where it is mentioned in quran that believing in imams is part of faith, or there will be twelve imams in this ummah etc? Do you have any similar unambiguous verse in quran like we have for shura system? Instead of taking parts of verses from here and there show me just one clear verse showing what you claim. Dont tell me since this and that happened in bani israel so we also have the same rules. There were many things in bani israel which we dont have in final ummah. This thread may help you http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/61569-the-concept-of-imamah-in-the-quran/ You asked for one verse and ALHAMDULILAH I found mulitple. We ahlul sunnah believe in quranic system of government, unlike so called imamah concept which is nothing but a man made theory with confused reality. On death of every single Imam people differed badly on who is the next possible Imam. This clearly shows the absence of any nass or narrations with names of imams etc at that time. Thus even some of their sons claimed imamah for themselves, like Abdullah Aftah, son of Jafar Sadiq. For more on this confused reality refer following sources: Book “Firaq al Shia” by Al Hassan bin Musa Abu Muhammad al Nawbakhti, also in the books al Fusoul al Mukhtarah by Muhammad bin Muhammad bin al Nu’uman known as al Mufid, Bihar al Anwar vol 47 by Muhammad Baqir al Majlisi. w.salam
  14. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    Here is the verse of Quran which you are asking. Not only a verse in fact there is an entire surah with name shura (consultation), while same is not present in your case. I am quoting here the entire passage not just a verse out of context. [36-43] Whatever you have been given, is merely a provision for the transitory life of this world, and that which is with Allah is better as well as more lasting. That is for those who have believed and put their trust in their Lord. Who refrain from gross sins and indecencies. Who, when they are angry, forgive. Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. Who spend out of what We have given them as sustenance. Who, when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves. The recompense of evil is a like evil, then whoever pardons and seeks reconcilement, his reward is with Allah. Allah does not like the wrongdoers. And those who avenge themselves after they have been wronged, cannot be held blameworthy, for blameworthy indeed are those who oppress others and commit excesses in the land without any right. For such people there is a painful torment. However, the one who practices patience and is forgiving. these indeed are works of great courage and resolution. This thing has been counted here as one of the best quality of believers. Clearly an opposition to your version of choice is not yours (which you have taken out of context from quran which in fact is talking about matters related to shirk). If choice is not ours then why to do consultation. The verse says conduct your affairs with mutual consultation, caliphate is surely the biggest affair of all. In contrast to conduct the affairs of collective life without consultation is not only the way of ignorance but also a clear violation of the law prescribed by Allah. This law became violeted from the time when Yazid came into power. He was the first one who was made caliph without consultation. So blame is on wrongdoers not on the precribed rule by Allah. Ahadith also tells us that there will be both good and bad caliphs in this ummah. Imam Ali also once cursed people of kufa that may Allah give me good followers and them a bad ruler. Now read letter 6 once again in light of this verse. Just like muawiyah this letter is also a reference to all those who reject the shura system of caliphate. Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. And prophet saww also used to consult with muhajirun and ansaar and with other tribal chiefs for their collective affairs like battles, etc except in cases where direct revelation came. This consultation was also a part of revelation enjoined by Allah swt during the prophethood of prophet saww. Thus making it an important pillar of islam. [159-160] (O Messenger,) it is a great mercy of Allah that you are very gentle and lenient towards them: for, had you been harsh and hard hearted, they all would have broken away from you: so pardon them and implore Allah to forgive them, and take counsel with them in the conduct of the affairs; then, when once you make up your mind (to do a thing), trust in Allah (and do it). Allah likes those who trust in Him in whatever they do. If Allah helps you, no power can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there, then, after Him to help you? Therefore, true believers should trust in Allah alone. This is the system of government mentioned in quran and is described as one of the best qulaity of believers, unlike imamah. Now answer me following: Where it is mentioned in quran that believing in imams is part of faith, or there will be twelve imams in this ummah etc? Do you have any similar unambiguous verse in quran like we have for shura system? Instead of taking parts of verses from here and there show me just one clear verse showing what you claim. Dont tell me since this and that happened in bani israel so we also have the same rules. There were many things in bani israel which we dont have in final ummah. This thread may help you http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/61569-the-concept-of-imamah-in-the-quran/ You asked for one verse and ALHAMDULILAH I found mulitple. We ahlul sunnah believe in quranic system of government, unlike so called imamah concept which is nothing but a man made theory with confused reality refer http://www.*************/2017/02/11/understanding-imamate-early-shia-society/. On death of every single Imam people differed badly on who is the next possible Imam. This clearly shows the absence of any nass or narrations with names of imams etc at that time. Thus even some of their sons claimed imamah for themselves, like Abdullah Aftah, son of Jafar Sadiq. For more on this confused reality refer following sources: Book “Firaq al Shia” by Al Hassan bin Musa Abu Muhammad al Nawbakhti, also in the books al Fusoul al Mukhtarah by Muhammad bin Muhammad bin al Nu’uman known as al Mufid, Bihar al Anwar vol 47 by Muhammad Baqir al Majlisi. w.salam
  15. Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.

    Again you are taking only a part of verse as usual. See rest part of verse which make things more clear. Obedience to ulil amr is conditional. Final authority is Allah and His Rasool and its the better and good way. This reminds me of letter 6. Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. But you are in habbit of only accepting a part of verse or hadith then what can I say. Talut was a king who was chosen only as military leader not for guidance. For guidance they already had a prophet (when they said to a prophet of theirs). Its like when prophet saww appointed someone from his companions for any army during his lifetime. And it all happened during the prophet not after the prophet. So your analogy is invalid. Those twelve leaders were tribal chiefs for their twelve tribes. All existed at the same time not one after the other. This analogy with your man made concept of imamah one after the other and last one being missing is also invalid.
×