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Salsabeel last won the day on June 9

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  1. @Quisant, @eThErEaL, @iCambrian Your comments.. You can find the full article here:
  2. "Why is defining life so frustratingly difficult? Why have scientists and philosophers failed for centuries to find a specific physical property or set of properties that clearly separates the living from the inanimate? Because such a property does not exist. Life is a concept that we invented. On the most fundamental level, all matter that exists is an arrangement of atoms and their constituent particles. These arrangements fall onto an immense spectrum of complexity, from a single hydrogen atom to something as intricate as a brain. In trying to define life, we have drawn a line at an arbitrary level of complexity and declared that everything above that border is alive and everything below it is not. In truth, this division does not exist outside the mind. There is no threshold at which a collection of atoms suddenly becomes alive, no categorical distinction between the living and inanimate, no Frankensteinian spark. We have failed to define life because there was never anything to define in the first place." By: Ferris Jabr (quoted from an article published in Scientific American) Requesting your comments.
  3. How true are the words of my Lord! Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 125: فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ كَذَٰلِكَ يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe. (English - Shakir) Life, consciousness. There are other examples too. But the best for our realization is life as you and me are enjoying & witnessing it. Consciousness can exist independent of matter. And within living things there are uncountable signs. I am not trying to change subject. This is not supernatural explanation. This is the prerequisites for systems like Universe and Life. “I am a collection of water, calcium, and organic molecules called Carl Sagan. You are a collection of almost identical molecules with a different collective label. But is that all? Is there nothing in here but molecules? Some people find this idea somehow demeaning to human dignity. For myself, I find it elevating that our universe permits the evolution of molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we are. But the essence of life is not so much the atoms and simple molecules that make us up as the way in which they are put together.” (Sagan 1980, 105)
  4. Excuse me if it gave you that impression. I am not in competition with you, so winning or losing is not my goal. I am just discussing the subject with you without using philosophical terminologies as a layman to explain my point of view. Not at all. I gave the example of "Observational facts" from biology. Should I limit my self to physics in mentioning the observational facts? Look, I am neither a philosopher nor a scientist. I am just a student who try to observe things & try to evaluate their true nature and try to learn their reality. I have tried to answer all your questions in my previous post and maybe because they are lacking the philosophical language, you have rejected them. You must have the idea of how PLC's works. They always obey the commands & laws set by the programmer. They never disobey the commands & laws on their own. The programmer however can anytime, if he wills, change the game plan & rules of business. We have achieved the advancements in controlling/automation of almost everything & every processes. We have designed artificial intelligence. Still, some of us unable to see that the systems like Universe & Life are also fully automatic systems. Hence there must exists a programmer/designer/creator. These systems & processes demands the existence of supreme knowledge & power, intelligence. The process of evolution is working everywhere. The case of necessary existence is so strong & compelling that anyone who try to refute it has the only option left & that is to say all this happened spontaneously. It is just like saying computer systems originated & evolved spontaneously and there is no creator/designer/programmer of such systems.
  5. It depends on the action (i.e., sin). Some sins are so great that we feel hate for both, the action(sin) & the actor (sinner) e.g., Yazeed (Laeen).
  6. I am fully aware of the words I am using i.e., observational fact. For instance, based on the similarity in the design & structure of DNA in living things, some Athiestic minds speculate the existence of Universal Common Ancestor. They went on speculating that life evolved spontaneously, by chance or by accident. They say evolution is a blind & cruel process. They follow blindness & speculations. We, on the other hand, do not speculate. We conclude from these observational facts that knowledge & power are prerequisite for the origin of these tiny molecular components of biological systems. Apply this to the belief you hold.
  7. This is not assumption but observational fact. Whatever that necessary thing may be, our observations indicate that it must not only a being but a conscious living being which possesses the supreme knowledge & qudrat (power). If existence is assumed as necessity for all things, nothing ceases its existence. Anything cannot be the first cause because of what we observe. It has been mentioned that knowledge & power are prereqsites. Both of them demand the conscious living being we know as Al-Haye Al-Qaiyyum. Knowledge, Power, Ever-Living etc are the properties of first cause & prerequisites. For instance, Energy cannot be the first cause because it is lacking the prerequisites and because it is contingent. If there were more than one necessary existences, there has to be conflict or rift in natural laws. Our observations dictate that the universal common creator is "Ahad" (only one). Its perfection makes it necessary being, for instance, in existence, he is perfect as he never cease to exist. Similarly, it is the perfection which makes him supreme in ilm, qudrat, hayat etc. We have identified Him through his words. Through His message. Do you know anything/anyone else who claimed such attributes for himself? His perfection in existence, frees Him to be bound in place or time (makan o zaman). He has caused the zaman o makan.
  8. From creation to extinction and the afterlife, what scientific events do you want to see in Quran? Every sort of news is present there. Do we have any scientific evidence for Jinn? Do we have any scientific evidence for Angels? These are the creations which are still not known but their existence is mentioned. Do we have any scientific evidence for soul which is said to leave the body upon death? If we don't have scientific evidence for anything, can we deny its existence? إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ "Surely We have created man from a small life-germ uniting (itself)" He is necessary existence, everything exists because of Him. We know that knowledge & power are prerequisites for the origin of universe & life, a supreme being exists & we know him as Wajib-ul-Wajood. Nothing comes from nothing. This indicates the existence of a thing which is necessary (wajib ul wajood) And here is my new argument: Similarly, thing comes from thing. Everything cannot extinct therefore. The only thing which is unable to extinct is the same necessary thing. Now some friends might present energy as a thing which neither be created nor destroyed. Well, do we know what energy is? Is it a thing or a property? Why negative energy cancels the positive energy & give us the sum of total energy of universe as zero? Matter, antimatter and light have positive energy and they are everywhere, so how is the net energy of the universe zero. This is because there is an equal amount of negative energy stored in the gravitational attraction that exists between these positive-energy particles. This makes total energy of Universe non-existent.
  9. I think he is working as a teacher, we must appreciate him. He is questioning our beliefs and forcing us to know more & more. May be one day he will meet Mulla Sadra of 21st century who can give him irrefutable philosophical argument. And I do believe he is not an athiest because of his following sentence: stay blessed
  10. You may be correct. But the verses of Quran are propositions or statement of facts. Philosophers do ponder on them and use them to build arguments. For instance lets see the verse: Surah Al-Mumenoon, Verse 12: وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ مِن سُلَالَةٍ مِّن طِينٍ And certainly We created man of an extract of clay, (English - Shakir) Is this not what your abiogenesis say? A complex chemistry and warm little pond hypothesized by Darwin. The verses next are more important as they describe precisely the developmental stages of fertilized egg. Many propositions mentioned in this verse alone: Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 30: أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe? (English - Shakir) We cannot simply ignore these statements revealed 1400 years ago. These are now becomes scientific facts, the process of evolution has been introduced by scripture. We understand that knowledge & power are prerequisites for the origin of systems like universe & life. These systems cannot be the result of any accident and cannot originate spontaneously as they work through & follow the natural laws. A law needs a law maker. A wajib ul wajood being in the case of systems like universe & life. The knowledge hidden out there & within the molecular levels in our bodies cannot come into existence spontaneously. This is not that which we can call blindness. After observing them, denying the existence of necessary being is called blindness.
  11. I think the following verse also sheds light on this: صِبْغَةَ اللّهِ وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللّهِ صِبْغَةً وَنَحْنُ لَهُ عَابِدونَ 2:138 [Say: "Our life takes its] hue from God! And who could give a better hue [to life] than God, if we but truly worship Him?"
  12. So you're not an athiest. If so, I must appreciate the way you pose yourself.
  13. 1) Thank you for this recent comment. I now need to change the direction of discussions opposite to what i was supposed to discuss. First of all, there is no "my definition" of God. The definition "wajib ul wujood" or necessary existence has been provided by God Himself as: "Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 255: اللَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; " These are the divine words for our guidance and from here one can understand the concept of necessary existence. There is no need to invent our own definitions, we cannot define a thing like of which there is nothing. Therefore His guidance & His words are the only way through which we can say something about Him.2) I disagree with you here. It has been demostrated multiple times that there is a necessary existence who gives life & causes death, who is Al-Haye & Al-Qaiyyum. From Adam to Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them all), messengers came to guide humanity. To teach us the wisdom & to purify our souls. One example is this: Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 260: وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِن لِّيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي قَالَ فَخُذْ أَرْبَعَةً مِّنَ الطَّيْرِ فَصُرْهُنَّ إِلَيْكَ ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِّنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ And when Ibrahim said: My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: What! and do you not believe? He said: Yes, but that my heart may be at ease. He said: Then take four of the birds, then train them to follow you, then place on every mountain a part of them, then call them, they will come to you flying; and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise. (English - Shakir)
  14. Ok, you position is now clear to me. I will get back to this. Not pleading but a fact. We call it wajib ul wajood. I will discuss that too tomorrow in-sha Allah.
  15. What is your position on Life? Lets see your stated position for Universe. Point is that how can you say that Universe evolved from bingbang irrespective of what it was before (completely independently)? Do you think causalty never existed before big bang? What caused the universe to expand? And why not it remained in the state of singularity? Secondly, what made the singularity hot & dense? We also need to discuss energy once again, i guess. No, that was never my position. There always exist a thing, like of which there is nothing. So we are agreed that nothing comes from nothing. There are many, the example of first human being known as Adam. Surah Sad, Verse 75: قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones? (English - Shakir)