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Musu

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  1. But the Sufi teachings are much more available for the public, aren't they? This isn't a rhetorical question, but a real one; indeed I have no idea! :-) I read the latest posts at another thread, Are Ismaili muslims? (page 19), and indeed in exoteric sense they might seem rather secularized. But on the other hand (I assume); we have this vast Sufi literature available for the public, but do we have any literature about the Nizari esoteric doctrine? I think this is a reasonable question since indeed the practice might seem a little secular; therefore, what's the state of their mysticism nowadays?
  2. Salaam alaikum, @reisiger! I think you might be right; the Qarmatians are said to have emerged during the Abbasid Caliphate (750 – 1258 CE) as a result of a split after the death of Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl (considered the 7th Imām in Ismāʿīlism; the obscurity discussed in my last post). The majority is said to have denied his death, thinking he has gone into occultation instead. This would actually explain the name Sevener, since they stopped at the 7th Imām ! I am sorry for the low quality of my sources, I've practically been trying to clue together various fragmented Wikipedia articles :-) In the Qarmatians article, it is said: The son of the 7th Imām, Ahmad al-Wafi (ca. 795/795 – 827/828 CE) is furthermore said to be the one from whom both the Nizari and the Mustaali trace their Imamate lineages, as well as from his descendants who founded the Fatimid Caliphate (909 – 1171 CE): But what happened next...? Well, those who kept following the Imamate lineage of Ahmad al-Wafi, the son of Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl, kept doing so without interruptions: after Ahmad al-Wafi came Muhammad at-Taqi (ca. 813/814 –839/840 CE); after him came Radi Abdullah (831 – 881 CE); after him Abdullah al-Mahdi Billah (873 – 934 CE). ATTENTION: the latter was actually the founder of the Fatimid Caliphate !!! At the Radi Abdullah article it is stated, "Radi Abdullah...: So here we can verify that the lineage of succession indeed passes through the Fatimid Caliphate, whereas the Qarmatians stuck to the 7th Imām, Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl. This would totally justify the term Sevener, although it is most likely later invention. Anyway, the story continues. During the Fatimid Caliphate, the lineage continued steadily until the death of al-Mustansir Billah (1036 – 1094 CE). This is the moment when the split into the Nizari and the Mustaali Ismaelites. The article Fatimid Caliphate: Civil war and decline goes: Now, I am not going to go in-detail to the various splits that happened within the newborn Mustaali -branch; indeed there were quite a few. One branch supported at-Tayyib Abi I-Qasim (the Taiyabi Ismaili), a two years old son of al-Amir bi-Ahkami I-Lah; another supported his cousin al-Hafiz (the Hafizi Ismāʿīlī). Up to this day, the Taiyabi Ismaili is "the only surviving sect of the Mustaali branch of Isma'ili Islam", although split in three different sects: Dawoodi, Sulaayamani, and Alavi Bohra. As stated by the article Taiyabi Ismaili: Anyway, out focus is in the Nizari -branch, and I've reached an understanding that, where the popular culture refers by the term Seveners, they are actually the Nizaris. NOTE! I personally much more belief that the historical Seveners, if I may, were the Qarmatians as suggested by @reisiger, but in the popular culture this term is misused to refer tot the Nizaris –– and especially the Nizari Ismaeli State (1090 – 1256 CE). The Nizaris were the infamous Hashashins (حشاشين) who targeted the Knights Templar and reigned the Alamut castle between 1090 – 1256 CE. This is also the time when most of the Crusades took place, starting from 1096 (the First Crusade).
  3. It's such a fascinating history. I first ran into the Seveners as I was reading about the Crusades; how they fought the Knights Templar, how they were known as the infamous Hashashins (حشاشين), how they practiced a mystical branch of Islam with esoteric teaching... I haven't found access to their current teachings, but I've understood that they've come far away from their mystical, esoteric origins. Is that correct? I mean, they say the Nizari Ismaili current is rather a secular branch of Islam...
  4. @reisiger, thanks for your response! I was afraid nobody is going to answer this post :-) Actually, I gave some thought about the term Sevener today, and it crossed my mind if the group is considered to be extinct today since they stopped at seven imams, whereas the others "...accepted that the Imamate would continue in the line of Isma'il b. Ja'far...", just as you said. Sounds reasonable to me. Reading Wikipedia can be rather confusing at times. For example, in some articles Isma'il ibn Jafar has been titled as the seventh Imam, while in some others seventh Imam is said to be Muhammad ibn Ismāʿīl, his son. One possible reason for this might be found from the article Imamah: Ismaili view, where Hasan ibn Ali is considered a mere pir by the Nizārīs, not an Imām. In the article about Seveners, Isma'il ibn Jafar is titled as the seventh Iman, though. Frankly speaking, the etymology still appears a bit confusing to me. Referring to the followers of Isma'il ibn Jafar by the term "Sevener" would sound logical to me, since it'd distinguish them from the followers of Musa al-Kadhim, his younger brother whom the Shia Twelvers follow. Could you please help me with this, brother? :-)
  5. Salam Alaykum, What is the difference between the Seveners and the Nizaris? Or are they the same? I must apologize for the low-quality of sources, but I've read some rather conflicting information. For example, the Wikipedia article Isma'ilism lists the Nizaris and the Seveners under separate subsections . Moreover, the latter is categorized under the Extinct branches section. The article goes as follows: I'd advice caution, since the insertion doesn't have any references. Moreover, Garcia (2006) has came out with the following chart where Seveners and Nizaris are listed separately. The reliability of the source can be questioned, though: However, there are sources that imply otherwise.For example, both Erde & Steinbach (2010) and Hendricks (2005) imply that the Seveners still do exist in the modern world. Well, these two are quality sources, but just not to let you too easy — my brothers — the Wikipedia article on the Seveners states: Again, just like with the Wikipedia article on Isma'ilism, I'd advise to caution: this insertion doesn't have any references either, but it manages to cast a doubt — if it's true — on Erde & Steinbach (2010) and Hendricks (2005); were they talking about the Nizaris or whom? I hope you endure through the confusion with me, brothers :-) Thanks! Sources Ende W. & Steinbach, U. (2010). Islam in the World Today: A Handbook of Politics, Religion, Culture, and Society, p. 260: "Afganistan is home to both Twelver Shi'a (the majority) and Sevener Ismailis (a minority), together making up over 20 percent of the country population." Garcia, L. (2016). The Assassins — the Legacy of Medieval Terrorist-Murderers. History Sifter 26.02.2016. Hendricks, S. (2005). Tasawwuf (Sufism): Its Role and Impact on the Culture of Cape Islam, pp. 112-113: "Pockets of various Shi'ite sects however - particularly the Isma'ilis, or Seveners - do exist in all the major centres along the East African coast (Trimingham, 1962:104-8)."
  6. Salam Alaykum, What is the difference between the Seveners and the Nizaris? Or are they the same? I must apologize for the low-quality of sources, but I've read some rather conflicting information. For example, the Wikipedia article Isma'ilism lists the Nizaris and the Seveners under separate subsections . Moreover, the latter is categorized under the Extinct branches section. The article goes as follows: I'd advice caution, since the insertion doesn't have any references. Moreover, Garcia (2006) has came out with the following chart where Seveners and Nizaris are listed separately. The reliability of the source can be questioned, though: However, there are sources that imply otherwise.For example, both Erde & Steinbach (2010) and Hendricks (2005) imply that the Seveners still do exist in the modern world. Well, these two are quality sources, but just not to let you too easy — my brothers — the Wikipedia article on the Seveners states: Again, just like with the Wikipedia article on Isma'ilism, I'd advise to caution: this insertion doesn't have any references either, but it manages to cast a doubt — if it's true — on Erde & Steinbach (2010) and Hendricks (2005); were they talking about the Nizaris or whom? I hope you endure through the confusion with me, brothers :-) Thanks! Sources Ende W. & Steinbach, U. (2010). Islam in the World Today: A Handbook of Politics, Religion, Culture, and Society, p. 260: "Afganistan is home to both Twelver Shi'a (the majority) and Sevener Ismailis (a minority), together making up over 20 percent of the country population." Garcia, L. (2016). The Assassins — the Legacy of Medieval Terrorist-Murderers. History Sifter 26.02.2016. Hendricks, S. (2005). Tasawwuf (Sufism): Its Role and Impact on the Culture of Cape Islam, pp. 112-113: "Pockets of various Shi'ite sects however - particularly the Isma'ilis, or Seveners - do exist in all the major centres along the East African coast (Trimingham, 1962:104-8)."
  7. @Hidaren, Oooh, I've understood that the Shiias and the Sunnis have principally different hadiths that on many parts contradict each other. :-O That's why I started this thread, even, to find if there is some common ground...
  8. @skamran110, thanks. Just to make sure: those are not hadith books but volumes of an encyclopedia that summarizes shared narratives from various hadith books? For example, "subject 7 out of 62, marriage; volume 5 out of 50: Sahih al-Bukhari 5190 (Sunni) <=> Kitab al-Kafi xxxx (Shia)." Or how do these work? Sorry for the repetition. :-)
  9. @amirhosein_88 Wau! And each (most) of the volumes comprehend hundreds of pages? Just to make sure: those are not hadith books but volumes of an encyclopedia that summarizes shared narratives from various hadith books? For example, "subject 7 out of 62, marriage; volume 5 out of 50: Sahih al-Bukhari 5190 (Sunni) <=> Kitab al-Kafi xxxx (Shia)." Did I get the idea correctly? :-) Thanks!
  10. Salaam, Jews and Christians are People of the Book, as expressed by the Holy Quran. What really matters is whether the abide by their Books or not. For Christians, the Disciples / Apostles were the ones to record the sayings of Jesus (as), so their Scriptures are equivalent to the hadiths of Islam. In Christian view, Jesus was the Messiah promised and described in the Old Testament (the Jewish scriptures), so they consider the historical evidence to stem from there; not a leap of faith. I'd love to hear what books the Nizari Ismailis use besides the Quran, though.
  11. Thanks, skamran110. Does this mean that there are whole Sunni hadith books that Shias accept, or does it depend case-by-case which individual passages are verified by the Shia hadiths? Can you give me an example of such a hadhith? I am eager to learn! :-) Thanks!
  12. Salam Alaykum, I've been wondering if there are any hadiths that both the Sunnis and the Shias have in common? In other words, do Shias accept any of the Sunni hadiths? Of course, Wikipedia isn't reliable a source, but it says the following in the Shia-Sunni relations article: Is this true? What hadiths might those be? :-P Thanks!
  13. Thanks for your reply, brother. That makes perfect sense, since there is always a risk that the scholarly interpretation might not be 100% in accordance with the Hadith.
  14. Naturally, the Holy Quran is the highest authority of Islam in all respects. However, if Quran leaves room for interpretation or does not explain something in full extent, which one comes next in hierachy: Tafsir (interpretation of Quran by Islamic scholars), or the Hadith (the record of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad [pbuh])? Which one is to be consulted first? Thanks a lot in advance!
  15. Qur'an 4:34

    So which hadhith(s) exactly say this?
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