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Everything posted by wmehar2

  1. yes and there are verses that default the wife after divorce stay living there in the home and to not be turned out either.
  2. It seems something related to inheritance came up in another passage @andres @Gaius I. Caesar and whoever else finds this interesting. 2:240 And those who are taken in death among you and leave wives behind - for their wives is a bequest: maintenance for one year without turning [them] out. But if they leave [of their own accord], then there is no blame upon you for what they do with themselves in an acceptable way. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
  3. Killing civilians in war

    allegedly The Jews of a certain city who betrayed the treaty were killed according to their own books, except women and children (boys who wete teenagers may have been as well). I detest killing of innocents but in a way they can be used against you. Children and women included. It becomes a chaotic mess. Even unwilling combatants are coerced because they're own families are threatened. The hearts compassion is a weakness a moral less enemy will exploit if they see it in their foe. The Quran has a stance to simply fight those who fight you. I dont see a case to justify collateral damage but neither constitute collateral damages as an act of war, as far as I understand it. Ideally, war should have been avoided to begin with. And that so called technology you speak of also acts as a war deterrent (and has been used as such) as an instrument of fear at the cost of too many lives. Though also to bully and coerce. Power, technology, weapons counter immorally groups from exploiting the weak. It seems they are necessary. The world is always going to be a crappy place in this regard.
  4. Ok, we're getting somewhere! Id like to know the criterion these Studies use from these hadith narrators, to grade authenticity.
  5. You will find many of what I say is "Quranist" but I also disagree with much of their own opinions. Im here to stir your brain and make you think /question like I am trying to. So I can have an open discussion and learn something. I don't have the perfect brain or mind, I need others contributing and openly considering it and posing their opinions so it can validate whatever argument Im for or against. It just helps me understand better. I appreciate everyone who is open minded with me and I would hope its every bit as helpful to them, perhaps confirming their own beliefs or helping them adjust something they actually don't find right.
  6. And yet it all goes back to Ibrahim, for all three of us major religions. There are people who call themselves Christians and Jews, and they are believers in God and the unseen following verses God did send down. No matter how distorted those verses endured. Look at us muslims @kirtc. We still have a test even if we all call ourselves muslim Don't you see? The test never ended even when Muhammad SAW came, muslims still split up! Maybe the test Kirtc, is to see which of us can obey God by following virtues, believing in him, yet keeping peace despite our differences? But you and I both know, there will always be those who are blind and are part of the chaos despite delusion into thinking they're helping. It says so in Quran in the very same verses I quoted here. You and I both know there will be those who purposefully disbelieve and seek to create chaos and instability. Allah SWT says: ذٰلِكَ الْكِتٰبُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -" (QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 2) الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ الصَّلٰوةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنٰهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ "Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them," (QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 3) وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَآ أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَبِالْأَاخِرَةِ هُمْ يُوقِنُونَ "And who believe in what has been revealed to you, and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]." (QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 4) أُولٰٓئِكَ عَلٰى هُدًى مِّنْ رَّبِّهِمْ ۖ وَأُولٰٓئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ "Those are upon guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful." (QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 5) إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا سَوَآءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَأَنْذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنْذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ "Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe." (QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 6) وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يَقُولُ ءَامَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَبِالْيَوْمِ الْأَاخِرِ وَمَا هُمْ بِمُؤْمِنِينَ "And of the people are some who say, We believe in Allah and the Last Day, but they are not believers." (QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 8) يُخٰدِعُونَ اللَّهَ وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا وَمَا يَخْدَعُونَ إِلَّآ أَنْفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ "They [think to] deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not." (QS. Al-Baqara 2: Verse 9) If you pay attention to the first verses, it says this book is for those conscious of Allah and believe what was revealed to Muhammad AND those before, which means us. Christians /Jews may not believe what was revealed to Muhammad, so they have their books. The Quran is not for them. As evidenced by below! Quran 5:44 Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers. Quran 5:47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
  7. Is Rape Allowed in Islam?

    Listen @Mishael You and I can agree muslims don't all follow Qu'ran. Just because Arab Muslims or other muslims from ethnic groups did something, doesn't mean they did it by God's Law.
  8. Is Rape Allowed in Islam?

    That is because you're understanding of slave is different from our understanding. Slave is not a slave in the same sense, it is more of a servant. A servant you take care of and takes care of you and you have a contract. They're still entitled to dignity. Slavery after Islam transformed from what you colloquially understand as slavery (Africans coming to the US).
  9. I could care less for Quranist perspective. For me, it is an assumption that Hadith are preserved, it is not a fact. The Quran is preserved, I will take that as fact as a badge of my belief in the unseen. As most here would. I'm arguing Hadith should not be taken as fact, if it took fallible men to peruse them, preserve them, examine them, grade them, they are not badges of faith by following them. for @kirtc And it is why I'm debating his notion of qu'ran is not enough. Hadith by themselves let alone supplementing Qur'an can never be enough either.
  10. Is Rape Allowed in Islam?

    She still as a right to her chastity if she desires based on the verses I shown you. It's regardless who she is/what she is. If she doesn't desire abstinence/chastity and is a slave girl then it's on her if I read this correctly. A pagan slave woman who desires chastity is desiring something good even if she doesn't follow God's laws. That's how you introduce God/religion to them to begin with. There is no compulsion in religion remember so if she is a pagan, we can't choose to rape her (like ISIS/Da3sh seems to think they can do with non kitabi people). Because that would put pressure on the girl. It makes all sorts of fantastic logical sense.
  11. Rakaats and Sujuuds are something made normal to you because that's what you grew up learning as shown in Hadiths., and you were taught that THOSE hadith and actions are a normal part of Islam and they're important. You don't actually KNOW for certain, you take what you were taught for fact instead of investigate yourself. That is what I'm saying. You say "WE ALL KNOW its not sufficient", its not sufficient according to HADITH, not according to God's words. Why is it not sufficient, because you believe the Prophet said it wouldn't be? The Quran just tells us to pray, and in several verses that we must stand, bow, prostrate. We are told to face the Qiblah, we are told Fatiha as the key/open to prayer when calling to Allah. We are told about Rukoo/Sajda and what to say , all of this is in Qur'an. Though Christians/jews praying didn't need to do these, face the same Qiblah as us etc. So doesn't reason tell you some aspects of prayer are arbitrary? I mean are you not guilty of what @andres is trying to argue? He's saying the Qu'ran needs to be a book that fixes all of us and if we followed it we all would be in happy land, yet he blames the Qur'an as not being a perfect book because we are all broken into sects and are not in happy land. Even he understands Hadith is what broke us up and divided us. Shia say Sunnis are not mu'min, (which is substantial), Sunni's say Shia are kafirs in some lights, this and that, this and that. Would ever actually sit and question what you're following or were taught and at least be certain? **Example, if you were taught all your life living in one country that all men must wear hats and there is no question about it, any one who doesn't is a bad person! And you were taught this but never questioned why men who didn't wear hats were bad, just accepted it as fact - they told you the forefathers taught us this because the prophet said this! When would you actually question that maybe not all hatless men were bad?** Did anyone ever try just following the Qu'ran? People are following hadith and there is NO means of measuring success /rate of holiness or goodness of those who do follow them. Really There isn't. No I'm not asking you to pray only from how you interpret from the Quran,
  12. Is Rape Allowed in Islam?

    1. You are not applying serious reading comprehension or logical reasoning abilities.. The link you provided asks about intimacy with a slave being allowed, not forcible rape, Consensual sex and permissibility of it is a separate entity altogether. It is not talking about RAPE. They're not even discussing rape, because it is obvious from Qu'ran you cannot rape a woman slave or free or married. 2. Islamqa is not what I follow. If some BS Hadith that say rape is allowed contradicts the Qu'ran then therefore not authentic and should not be part of religion. Though Islamqa in this case isn't arguing the permissibility of rape. Islamqa is not a source of knowledge in Islam for me, sorry. I don't think it is for any Shia' muslim on here either. I'm bordering on thinking you are not someone I can have an open discussion with if you're not taking this conversation seriously. I may take @Hamodiii's stance and just end this discussion with you as you refuse to actually care to consider the possibility that you're ill-informed or not correct in this. The verses clearly command us to give slave women their chastity/abstinence if they desire it and not to force them to prostitution. If the slave girl is a Christian or Jew etc., we cannot make her violate God's laws that they follow (which is sent down by the same God as us). That is why God protects them and says if a slave (who may be people of scripture) is raped/forced to prostitution against their will, God will forgive them and not hold it accountable to them (this verse implies that the verse isn't just towards muslims).
  13. Is Rape Allowed in Islam?

    Taking a woman from war, does not constitute rape nor inheriting them by compulsion. Women need protectors/guardians.... Maybe you don't understand historic Arabia and how the place/roes of women were. They needed to be cared for, if you kill their husbands/protectors in war, then you are responsible for them. It doesn't mean you are entitled to rape them. I literally gave you TWO verse that are quite clear you cannot force sex on them in ANY capacity including slavery EXPLICITLY. There is no way you can presume rape is allowed on women unless you want to hide the rest of the Quran and have a thirst for rape, or just want Islam to look bad. It's a non-sequitur, your argument. Let's not kid ourselves. please read 24:33 again. And let those who find not the means to marry be abstinent till God enriches them of His bounty. Those your right hands own who seek emancipation, contract with them accordingly, if you know some good in them; and give them of the wealth of God that He has given you. And constrain not your slave-girls to prostitution, if they desire to live in chastity, that you may seek the chance goods of the present life. Whosoever constrains them, surely God, after their being constrained, is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. slave women don't have means to marry, they count as that group. TWICE it's emphasized to leave them chaste away from unlawful sex outside MARRIAGE.
  14. Is Rape Allowed in Islam?

    No. Quran 4:19 O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good. quran 24:33 And let those who find not the means to marry be abstinent till God enriches them of His bounty. Those your right hands own who seek emancipation, contract with them accordingly, if you know some good in them; and give them of the wealth of God that He has given you. And constrain not your slave-girls to prostitution, if they desire to live in chastity, that you may seek the chance goods of the present life. Whosoever constrains them, surely God, after their being constrained, is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. If God wants women who want to not fornicate (despite they're being slaves) aka be chaste, then what makes you think raping them is allowed @Mishael? It also says if your slaves want freedom, give it to them through contract; even give them some money when you free them.
  15. Is Rape Allowed in Islam?

    You still need their consent. You also can't force a concubine, to be your concubine (4:19). You're logic applied here does not follow, if women are allowed whom your right hand possesses it does not insinuate rape. It just means they are allowed to have sexual relations with them. You're reading comprehension seems to be lacking, because you missed 4:24 "desiring chastity, not fornication". Why haven't you read the verses just 5 verses previously (below)? Quran 4:19 O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good. If you cannot inherit a woman by force, you can't take her as a slave/sex slave or rape her. Live with women in kindness, pretty sure that means you can't rape them.
  16. It's okay man, thank you though @Gaius I. Caesar. I'm not taking offense to this. I'd rather drop it and try to understand his position and hope we can discuss further.
  17. Cannot rely on Quran alone to be Muslim, or to get to Jannah/Heaven, or both I should say? I don't know why, but it feels incredibly painful to even think about saying"God's words are unreliable by themselves.". It'd be great to understand what you mean by "cannot rely on Quran alone as muslim" Because if you say you're not takfiri, but it's not enough to be a muslim by only following Quran, they seem contradictory.
  18. If I lie to myself then it must be because of what I'm reading from God's words. You didn't answer my question. If Christians/Jews and other people of the Book, from 3:113 stood in prayers, recited verses and prostrated and are an obedient people, and never will their reward be forgotten or lost.... Tell me where did they learn to pray? Surely it's not the way the Prophet Muhammad SAW prayed? Did Isa ibn Mariam AS pray like Muhammad? or Musa AS? Was the way of their prayer part of the Islam you and everyone I encounter from Sunni and Shia ranks are so hellbent on imposing as a critical methodology in one's faith? How about the Jews who followed what was sent down and Allah gave them reward? You say that I'm lost, but I believe you and the rest are too fearful to question what you've been raised/instructed to do, and are so confident in it you never will entertain the thought of questioning it sincerely. as before I quoted 6:151 Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." I'm not saying you should reject hadith or how you prayed I'm saying you should understand that it's not farfetched for someone to pray differently than you and they can still be muslims, even if it isn't from hadith, if one takes the quran only into account.
  19. *shrug* that is your prerogative. I don't think the Qur'an meant to answer for every permutation of computational possibilities, I think it relied on us to use our reason in situations like we are discussing. Perhaps your personal reasoning tells you that the Qur'an isn't divine in origin or perhaps was but not preserved; based on this verse (or more). 6:151 Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." 8:22 Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason.
  20. The default would nullify the 1/8 going to the wife based on context, if you ignore the bequesting bit in the verses. But there is another example (and infinitely many others) I noted that resulted in a total % other than 100%. The first of my responses which is my personal take explaining why Quran doesnt necessarily say to make proportions according to the sum you're referring to (very lengthy) The second post which nullifies any notion of mathematical arguments by pointing to an excerpt that informs the reader of the Quran that all is after bequeath/bequesting like a will, this transforms much of the proportioning we've been debating here, and would/can ovverride or supercede the default arguments in defining proportions left by deceased. In which case someone may choose to will nothing to their wives or parents etc. In the absence of a will, context still points to daughters /and parents of deceased to inherit property over wife of deceased. Every other permutation that involves a son, the wife (wives) will get an 1/8 share. Any permutation that has no children, wives will get 1/4 share. @andres logically if there are 3 or more daughters among 3 or more wives, there's no feasibility to leave 1/8 divided to those 3 wives, and 2/3 between all those daughters. If there are 3 daughters among one wife, even then intuitively daughters and parents of deceased are entitled than the wife of deceased it seems in eyes of God..If wife continues guardianship I presume she'll (they'll) spend her(their) daughters inheritance for their daighter(s) and not on themselves.
  21. @andres Silly of me, I just realized I didn't need go to the extent I did to explain why the 1/8 is assumed to be nullified for wives. It appears I have not examined this bit close enough/overlooked, "after any bequest they [may have] made or debt." which is made twice for each instance. Bequest/will or debt, completely shatters any mathematical constraint imposed here. Because a will or bequest relegates the inheritance as no longer being an inheritance, which suffice it to say, is bad news for wives. In agreement with my hypothesis it was intentional wives were not prioritized and children were in prioritized instead in matters of inheritance. Bye bye all matters of contradiction in Quran in your mathematical allegation. Matters of bequesting are purely subjective. How silly of me. Im shocked you didnt observe this part of the verse as well.
  22. You ought to know that I'm a mathematically inclined in both profession and academic upbringing, (you others in this chat may disagree with me in what is to follow) Being the quantitatively inclined person I am, I have offered a plausible opinion to those who've approached me previously with what you're describing; and it isn't the math that is the issue, I believe it is reading comprehension and context. It's merely a matter of applying logic and understanding the mind of a medieval Arabian lenses. And I can't hope for you to assume that I have acceptable reasoning skills except to see if yours aligns after reading the passage. Having read the Quran just once, I can't imagine you've read it with the same attentiveness a muslim would/should as it is a book they are charged with following.. So I will assist. I invite you bring the verse and reasoning/situation where it doesn't add up. Though I suspect it's from these passages below: 4:11 God charges you, concerning your children: to the male the like of the portion of two females, and if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves, but if she be one then to her a half; and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children; but if he has no children, and his heirs are his parents, a third to his mother, or, if he has brothers, to his mother a sixth, after any bequest he may bequeath, or any debt. Your fathers and your sons -- you know not which out of them is nearer in profit to you. So God apportions; surely God is All-knowing, All-wise. **Note, in Above verse God is charging 'you', or if I'm the reader, it's referring to me and my children as the HUSBAND/MALE/deceased who leaves behind estate.** Let's break it down: The most logical place to start where it is specific is where you see "what he leaves" because this indicates a tangible indicator of portioning of the whole estate left behind. AFTER my DEBT to others are paid it is as follows: --------------------------- Situation A) Firstly if the male deceased (or me) has a child/children, then surviving parents of the deceased are assigned 1/6th of the entire quantity each, so 1/3 total to momma and poppa. (so 2/3 of total quantity remains before affects of Attribute C (below). [Affects from Attribute C1] 1(my estate) - 1/3 (to parents) - 1/4 (to wife/wives ) = 5/12 remaining of my estate (that 1/4 goes to my wife (wives) when I die (they get 1/4 if there are no kids, she'll get 1/8 IF they're kids) [Affects from Attribute C2] 1(my estate) - 1/3(to parents) - 1/8 (to wives if I have kids) = 13/24 remaining of my estate Situation B) Should the male (me) deceased have NO children, Then 1/3 of my estate goes to my mother (and 1/4 to my wife, thus 5/12 remaining estate to my father by complimentary math); but if I have brothers (or sisters?) surviving me, my mother will get 1/6 of the total portion and then instead 7/12 goes to my dad. Nothing remains. This resolves Situation A1-C1. Attribute C) This isn't really a scenario/situation, but an artifact/attribute to be applied to situation A...because the next verse says 1/4 of what I leave goes to my wife (wives) conditionally could be 1/8 to them if we have kids, again this applies to situation A only as B assumes no children from me. --------------------------- So what to do with the 13/24 (Situation A1-C2) Situation A)? It must be assigned to the children, of course! Situation A1) The remaining from Situation A) splits as follows-> [to the male the like of the portion of two females], ratio of inheritance is 2/3 male child(ren), 1/3 female child(ren), OR if two female children in addition to male (child(ren), the female children split THAT 1/3 (of the 13/24 remaining) amongst themselves and males split the remaining 2/3 of the original 13/24 left from Situation A). Situation A2) [and if they be women above 2 (not 2 or greater, just greater than 2 same as 3 AND above), then for them two-thirds of what he leaves], if more than 2 female children (and no male children), females get 2/3 of the ENTIRE estate, THIS CHANGES THE GAME. so 1 (my estate) - 2/3 (to my 3 daughters or more) - 1/8(to my wife/wives) -1/3(to parents) = -1/8 <- This is what you would be referring, am I correct? It is not a contradiction or mathematical error in Quran, its a contextual application of reasoning. In the context of Arabia in Islamic/PreIslamic times, men married many wives up to four (some even beyond). Daughters needed more protection from the (they have different mothers amongst siblings) wives of the deceased and likely may fight over their daughters/siblings inheritance. In order to encourage the wives to stick together with the siblings and/or not be dissuaded from abandoning them, it stands to reason the wives would be encouraged to work together, thus eliminating the need for 1/8 disbursement of the male deceased to give to the wives. It's monetary incentive for wives to support their daughters (and each other) who have the bulk/majority of the inheritance as opposed to abandoning them, where as a wife/wives with a larger inheritance may be incentivize to abandon their daughters who wouldn't likely find productivity/means to earn money in them. It was common sense for these Medieval Arabs to make this distinction/deductive application while it is not intuitive at all for modern day you and me. Especially in a time where males were guardians (and in this context the male protector/guardian is dead, which had more value in society for work reasons). In my PERSONAL OPINION. The parents (or grand parents of the deceased's children) have 1/3 entitlement may be assumed to be the same household for a widowed wife to share. Situation A3) [but if she be one then to her a half], if an only child female, she gets 1/2 of the estate (still applies to WHOLE total, "what he leaves") , meaning 1/2 to the only female daughter and 1/8 to my wife/wives which means 3/16 to dad and 3/16 to my mom)!! In this instance there is extra remaining (1/48, a small negligible amount) Since both parties in this situation have applied to it "what he leaves" which signifies a portion of the whole estate left behind me (or whoever the male reader is). The same reasoning in red above applies to this instance, where monetary incentive is there for a window to raise her daughter (as opposed to only daughter) who has half the inheritance and not abandon her (since orphan severity was quite high/frequent). The wife here is assumed to not need the 1/8 as the daughters would have the bulk inheritance and would likely help their moms per spiritual encouragement/from Religion. 4:12 And for you a half of what your wives leave, if they have no children; but if they have children, then for you of what they leave a fourth, after any bequest they may bequeath, or any debt. And for them a fourth of what you leave, if you have no children; but if you have children, then for them of what you leave an eighth, after any bequest you may bequeath, or any debt. If a man or a woman have no heir direct, but have a brother or a sister, to each of the two a sixth; but if they are more numerous than that, they share equally a third, after any bequest he may bequeath, or any debt not prejudicial; a charge from God. God is All-knowing, All-clement. **Note in Above verse, God is now referring to what the WIFE leaves, a whole SEPARATE pool to be split up as opposed to my personal pool be split up when I die..** After my WIFE (WIVES) debt is paid to others, it is as follows: For ME personally, I get a half of what my wife (wives) leaves if THEY die (from their personal property) should we have no children. (Implying the rest of the wives halves would be split to their parents which is identical to situation A3) (Quran seems consistent!) to the male analogue. If my wife (wives plural in case I have more than one) has children (which includes children from their previous marriages), I only get a fourth what she leaves behind **Note now back to me in reference** Which I accounted for as Situation C) previously. From here it's easy to deduce how to handle the math/portioning if additional variations/scenarios occur (i.e. I die but one parent is dead instead etc. etc.)
  23. Merely all conjecture, but sure you can say that.
  24. Doubt is a function of faith or lack thereof. i believe it is genuine after perusing and discovering no man could have made this. If you read the book from cover to cover, then you have every right to make that judgment for yourselves. Quran seems rather wholly preserved when considering evidences of older leafs discovered. No significant textual variances such that meaning is changed.
  25. Show me errors, and lets discuss. I am saying as such.