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It's me hello

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    School of Athens
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    Philosophy, Politics, Debate.

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  1. Iran vs KSA ?

  2. Issues with Islam

    But then you have 2 options. You either have faith that god exists, or you have faith that god doesn't exist. At that point, it just boils down to faith, not evidence.
  3. Confused about my Beliefs.

    Didn't condemn. I thought you meant misguided as in "Mentally deranged" But yes these people are misguided, but that doesn't change the fact that they are using Islam as their supporting doctrine. Come on? Really? Islam is irrelevant? Why would a non-muslim pledge to a group that advocates for the killings of non-believers? It is absolutely relevant. Not all Muslims. If I admit the problem is Wahhabism, the problem is still Islam. Because Wahhabism is Islam. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/29/what-is-wahhabism-the-reactionary-branch-of-islam-said-to-be-the/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism Not what majority of Muslims think. But it is still Islam. It's just a form of it that you disagree with. Are they not real Muslims? Takfiri? Yeah, me too. But I won't go as far to say that they aren't Muslim. I said rape can be justified through Islam because people are doing it all of the time. Many other bad things can be justified through Islam, and it can be considered part of Islamic doctrine. I condemn all rape. I'm focused on Muslim rapists because it is an issue of MY community. Did the idea of genocide exist before the Yugoslavian/Serbian government? If the answer is yes, then we can say that the Serbians/Yugoslav government at the time were not responsible for war crimes. Did the concept of killing exist before war? If it did, then no governments are responsible for any deaths. This question doesn't prove anything. Not really? I'm asking for a change in how people in the Islamic world look at ideas. It's the frame of thought that people have with religion. They shouldn't be blamed equally. But they are both to be blamed. Let me give an example. A homeowner leaves all his doors open at night, he gets robbed and loses his money. Who's fault is it? It's both of their faults. A woman gets raped after she got drunk at a bar. Who's fault is that? It's both of their faults. We know that we can NEVER have a cure to rape, and robbery. Same thing, we cannot have a cure for murder, so the next best thing is prevention. I know for a fact that if we had a large reformation in the Islamic world, we'd have far less extremists. It's a lot of Muslims' fault for not changing their way of thinking, and I believe that the frame of thought that is used by a large population of Muslims, allows for dangerous ideologies to rise. I never said destroy Islam... This is what I mean, I said we should look to reform it in a positive way. Not DESTROY the whole religion. You take a change that I want to make, and make it seem like I want to destroy the religion. You literally cannot say that Islam cannot be used as a justification for rape and violence. People are doing it EVERYDAY. I never said this is the CORRECT INTERPRETATION, all I said is that IT CAN BE USED TO JUSTIFY RAPE AND VIOLENCE. Okay. I agree, but you know it can be used for other deviant purposes as well. You think they are deviant, they think we are deviant. What does this help? They are still Muslims. They still believe in the Quran. They still Believe in the Prophet(s). They are still Muslims.
  4. Issues with Islam

    The most logical stance is agnosticism. But it depends if you have faith.
  5. Confused about my Beliefs.

    There are many acts that are tolerated by these governments and their people. So asking about criminals isn't an accurate way to attain a statistic on this. (You are making it seem like the only problem here is ISIS, it is not only ISIS. I'm sure you agree with me that many Muslims of the world, whether Sunni or Shia believe in problematic ideas. Not all, but a lot.) 0.01% is inaccurate as a statistic. Because I'm not only using ISIS as shown above. Secondly, they are misguided individuals if they don't identify with, or use a doctrine. Same thing applies to Muslims. I explained this already. I judge them on their faith because they use their faith as justification for their actions. Yes I have. It is Islam. I'm not generalizing, I'm saying that there are literally sects of a religion that believe in extremism; that's a lot of people, and they can cause a lot of problems. I said multiple times, not all Muslims. If someone is not a Muslim and shoots up a concert, that doesn't mean that he didn't belong to a group. When you take a look at the motivations of the person who committed the act, you can then determine what group is responsible for the attack. The same thing applies for Muslims, and for Muslims it's apparent. They find that most of these Muslim attackers in the west pledged to ISIS or had subscribed to an extremist view of Islam. If no group is found, it is reasonable to assume that it was probably a mental problem. (Even for Muslims) So I don't really believe what you accuse me of believing, because it is philosophically inconsistent. I didn't blame all Muslims. I just said that the whole religion of Islam should take steps forward to prevent the corruption of our religion. This would involve being open to change, because the wahhabi/salafi mentality is, "You disagree, you die." In many Islamic countries, criticizing Islam leads to death. You can't say that is an extremist idea, I have seen plenty of people on this forum advocate for these things. Wahhabi/Salafis are still Muslims. It's our problem, and we should own it. Wahhabism is Islam. Islam has a doctrine. (Stop using 0.01% it's fallacious) It's more than 0.01% (People that condone it, are neutral about it, and people that commit it are the problem) And there is way more than 0.01% that believe in all of these things. I'm not saying rape is an Islamic doctrine, I'm asking why Muslims are doing this. Muslims do this because Islam is easily corruptible. I'm saying the way we fix this problem is by using introspection, and applying new standards to make sure that we are more open, so we can become better as a people. You know why Wahhabis won't be changed? It's because they believe that their religion does not deserve any scrutiny. Just like many people on this thread believe. Just like so many Muslims believe. Islam is the set of ideas in which these groups attain their ideas. So the problem can be traced to Islam. I agree with you here. It doesn't change the fact that it is problematic. I'm blaming Islam and Muslims for terrorism because Islam and Muslims are not open to scrutiny. Not all. Not all... Are you saying that because Muslims are the victims of terrorism, they can't do anything about it? I agree with everything you say here. People keep saying that Islam in inherently violent, and it's a really dumb statement. I agree with you, if it was, then how was there a golden age of Islam where scientists from all over the world came and worked to solve so many scientific questions? Why haven't we seen a consistent trend of Muslims killing infidels for the sake of being infidels, since the dawn of Islam? It's because it's not inherently violent. It's because bad ideas are put into place, and are not subject to scrutiny. My main point of contention here is that we need to be more open as a religion. Because all of Islam is very closed to change, if it's really closed to change, then we have groups like the salafis/wahhabis that we know will never change their ways. We need to open up more and accept and address criticism of our religion if we want all of these bad movements in Islam to perish. Thank you for the reply brother. I will try to make a response later today if you reply, I've been sitting here for a few hours discussing these issues. I need to take a break xD
  6. Issues with Islam

    That's s rather blunt. xD
  7. From what I see, you admitted you were wrong on many topics. You seemed pretty reasonable to me, and I don't understand why everyone takes these things so personally. Oh well.
  8. Confused about my Beliefs.

    I agree with this. I think the only criticism of your idea is that it's not only ISIS that does this kind of stuff. It's large populations of those Muslim countries that believe this. Just because it is as a result of conflict doesn't mean there can't be a change in our religion. I'm asking people to be more open. It's Muslims committing these acts, that means it's our problem, and we have to own it. We have to look at ourselves and improve ourselves.
  9. Confused about my Beliefs.

    So Marxists? Marxism is a horrible ideology, that doesn't even establish their credibility. Yes Sure. Capitalism doesn't care about people, all it cares about is profit. That isn't a bad thing. I've read The Wealth of Nations and here is an excellent quote from it, it really highlights the core principle capitalism. This is why capitalism works. Capitalism is forced Altruism. You must give services someone else wants in exchange for their own goods that you want from them. https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/what-current-poverty-rate-united-states You can still squeeze labor from people that are not in abject poverty as well. Not an argument. So you are implying that you MUST have a violent protest in order get heard? How many violent groups are there? Can you tell me the ratio of people that don't use violence to people who use violence to make their opinions heard? Have you thought that maybe the ideologies that condone violence to get what they want, are just bad ideologies? I don't see how this is not the exception, but instead the rule in your eyes. Who is making you abandon your values? Did you have the thought police break into your house and force you to believe anything else? Nobody is forcing anything. If my ideas prevailed, we might have had a much better state of Islam. Ooo So scary! "the very trace of Islam would be wiped off the earth." How so? A change in ideas in Islam will wipe it off the planet? So you are implying that Islam has ideologically weak foundations and can't hold to any change? It's the belief of how a civilization should be run. Scare mongering. What are you even going to say? Are you going to call for the death of all infidels or what? You make it sound like everyone will start a lynch mob against you if you begin to speak. You are only silencing yourself over unjust fear. Do what you want. I agree. Are they hurting you? If they shout racist slogans at you, who cares. They are words. Close your ears if you are hurt by them. If they burn your effigies, who cares. They aren't even proving a point. ????????? But is not restricted to, as you have pointed out yourself. I don't like it when people bring up irrelevant arguments. The Muslims of that country can attempt to get it back? I don't get the point here, it's not silencing Islam. You can have Islam without minarets. It's just a policy change because different people are in power. Oh what about the crimes against westerners by Muslims? Oh wait sorry, doesn't matter. #notallmuslims. The hate crimes, unless they are violent crimes, or a call to action do not need to be entertained. Anything violent will be cracked down on by the government. He didn't ban Muslims. He banned entry from terror ridden Islamic countries. That's a smart move. Sophistry. Hijab wasn't banned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering The premise of your final argument is wrong, because of reasons above. No problem? What an intellectual argument! You also accuse me of being a blasphemer and apostate? Hahahaha, no wonder people want to call you a Jihadist. I think you may have just told a practicing Muslim that they are a blasphemer and apostate, same strategy that extremists employ, good on you. xD Yes you are. You wrote one paragraph of insults for someone because you thought that you should defend their honor. Do you even know what a white knight is? It's an internet term. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=White Knight You made yourself look like one from that paragraph of insults. (I read the first sentence and got too lazy to complete it xD) I don't know why you are getting so worked up about this. Calm down. You make it seem like you can't handle an opposing opinion. How many insults have you and others written, compared to me? If I'm here to insult, why do I dedicate so much time to rebutting you? I could do what you do and write a full paragraph of insults. It's obvious that I'm not here to insult, and I don't know if you are trying to get the moral high ground or what. Yes. Because they are using Islam, and it's not only in ISIS, it's all over the Islamic world. Ok. It can. Not as easily as Islam in the 21st century. And as I pointed out earlier, Muslims are using Islam as a justification for rape. ISIS literally enshrines rape. How can you not see this? In many Islamic countries, women get executed for being raped. Not even my their own government, by FELLOW MUSLIMS. It's not like the people in ISIS rape, and then looked around for a scapegoat, and then went "AHA" and wrote down that justification. They see their religion, then they go out and commit crimes in the name of their religion believing that they will go to heaven. It's either that Islam motivates them to do it, or a large population of the middle east is just inherently violent, and would just rape and kill anyone even if they weren't Muslim. It could, and in the case of Islam, there is. When there are literally SECTS of the religion that are extremist, I think that's where we have a problem. Where you have the Islamic world that unhinges and calls for the death of anyone that criticizes Islam, I think that's where you have a problem. When you have an Islamic community that shuns values of freedom, I think that's where you have the problem.
  10. Confused about my Beliefs.

    Thanks for the reply man. Really appreciate it.
  11. Confused about my Beliefs.

    When you call for someones murder, someone will be hurt. When you blaspheme god, there is no victim. Yes, but not everyone sees the same way you do. This is the problem of humanity. Every individual has an idea of how the world should be run, and all ideas must be heard, despite anyone claiming the contrary. This is how you lead people to the light with reason. You don't have to lead people. You have the ability to speak too, do you not? You can show them why what they are doing is wrong, and then they will decide what is right and wrong. Well, that's an issue. xD But an intelligent Theist and out-argue most disbelievers. We aren't all equal actually, and we need to beat athiests at their game. Because the better we get at their game, the more people we have! Brother, here is the main disagreement. How are there Muslims in the west if this above statement is true? How is there a civilization if this is true. How is there a religious population in the United States if this is true? American free speech advocates for total free speech unless it's a call to action. I think that's reasonable. My contention brother is that the line should not be drawn anywhere unless someone will be hurt physically, maybe mentally, because of it. The reason why, is because of human nature. Humans will ALWAYS disagree on something. If you have found the absolute truth to life, and you find out something that others haven't, you should bring people to the light. Bring them closer to god, by convincing them using free speech. I made my friends more religious by talking to them about religion. It really helps out man. Thanks for your reply brother, really appreciate it. I have taken what you said under consideration.
  12. Confused about my Beliefs.

    Oh yeah, this is not the case actually. I find religion to be one of the most important things in society, and I believe the west can be a lot better with religion, but no enforcement of religion. I'm really socially conservative. Secondly, I'm not trying to sully the image of Islam. If I was trying to do that, I wouldn't need to bring this up to you, I could bring it up to a bunch of non religious people, but that's not my intention. My fundamental question is this, why can terrorists use Islam as justification for their heinous crimes? It's because Islam can easily be modified, and I'm advocating for a change in the Islamic structure of thought.
  13. Confused about my Beliefs.

    Nothing to do with it? Okay. Whatever you say. Not really, but you can extrapolate what you wish from what I said, but I tell you now that's not what I believe. How is capitalism a failure? What? Communism = Failure, I agree. Social Unrest - Concrete reality, but so what? This can lead to positive or negative change, it really depends on your views. Breakage of societal bonds and social disintegration - Concrete reality, and it needs to be addressed. What's your point? So a utopia? Your ideals are whatever you want them to be. Everyone has their own end goal, and you can't force others to accept your own. I guess if you want to look at it like that. If your ideas prevailed in the past, I think we'd still be in the bronze age. Is your voice silenced in the west? Oh, the answer is no, right? Then go start a social movement. It's not really sarcasm, I'm literally describing your idea of an ideal society. You said you want: First of all, many people disagree with you; many people feel like the current system is a decent system that we can settle for, just like me. Second of all, you are NEVER going to have a system in which people don't feel left out. It's just human nature. That's why I say it's a utopian idea. But put into practice, it's a dystopia. This is a good thing? Right? If people are being more spiritual and less materialistic because they realize it's not enough to suit their needs; then good for western civilization. Why do you people do stuff like this? "Look at me, I can point to something that happened 200 years ago!!! I'm a genius, I win hahahahaha!" What makes the west so great is secularism. Look at all of their technological advances, look at all they have contributed to the world. I know your response, it's going to be like, "The same secular west the that ___ the ____ people" That won't discredit much. So you're takfiri. Thanks for the admission. Sigh, another white knight. Just letting you know right now, you aren't much of a hero. I guess I'll have to point out the hypocrisy. Here are some very respectful comments by monad on this topic. Very respectful huh? And by the way, I didn't say that rape is enshrined in Islamic theology, I said we should solve the issue of people using Islam as an excuse to rape. How is this possible with Islam, but not with Christianity? I know Islam is against rape buddy.
  14. Yes that's acceptable, because the person who denied all the black people lost loads of potential money, and that can potentially lead them out of business. It's a matter of personal choice, not even about religion.
  15. Net Neutrality

    It isn't mutually exclusive.