82 replies to this topic

[Muhammed Ali]

this is not a debate on the subject

this question is mainly to shia reverts.

when ever i see a shia revert in muharram i wonder what he must be thinking.

[Gypsy]

In the begining yes but some are fascinated by it

[Arek]

assalamu alaikum.

i try to understand even the most extreme forms like hiting your head with a sword...but i usually get turned off by it
as for beating the chest, floging your back, etc. i think i would do it myself. it's just that i never had an opportunity to see Ashura or Arbaeen live.

wasalam. Arek.

[Hajar]

Salaam alaikum,

I checked this one "only with extreme forms involving blood".  Don't mean to offend anyone, but I don't see it as an act of worship.  I see it as a cultural practice gone wrong.

WaSalaam, Hajar

[UmmIbrahim2007]

salaams

no im sure they r like
"phreakin crazy emotional arabs/iranians/pakistanis"

salaams
baheera

[Ali Mahdi]

I wouldn't do zanjeer or anything with blood. It's not the blood, it's just I don't like the act of purposely injuring yourself. I don't know how to describe it...  

I did matam, that's as far as I will go. I follow Ayatollah Khamenei (ha) and he says zanjeer is haram.

Khoda Hafez va Eltemas-e Dua!

Edited by Ali Mahdi, 22 March 2004 - 06:08 PM.

[salmany]

Hajar, on Apr 23 2003, 09:29 AM, said:

Salaam alaikum,

I checked this one "only with extreme forms involving blood".  Don't mean to offend anyone, but I don't see it as an act of worship.  I see it as a cultural practice gone wrong.

WaSalaam, Hajar

*salman sneaks in *

psssttt

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.
The answer is as follows:

                                                                 Bismihi Ta`ala
Doing matam by shedding blood (e.g. Qama zani) in addition to it not being considered a method of expressing sadness or mourning according to general convention, has no precedent in the time of the Imams (Peace be upon them) or of those who followed them. Moreover, there is no general or specific verification from the Imams (peace be upon them) concerning this action. And as this action disgraces the Shia`h school of thought in the eyes of others it is not allowed.


Thats Imam khameini (HA).

Sallam!

[Khadim Al-Mehdi]

That's sort of out of place cause this is asking how do shia reverts feel when they see this. Also as you know although sayyid khomayni is against this, if you don't follow his taqleed this is not really applicable.

[Syed Haider Naqvi]

Salman can you paste the link of the site u got it from?

thnx

[Truth-seeker]

Allahumma sale ala Muhammad wa ale Muhammad

Salaams to all,

Speaking on a purely subjective level; I do feel uncomfortable when I see people doing matam which involves blood-letting. As for matam involving beating of the chest, well, I used to take part in that and Muharram activities in general even when I was Sunni.

When it comes to matam which involves zanjeer, I guess the only real problem that I have with it is the idea of drawing your own blood by your own hand (And do not with your own hands cast yourselves into destruction (2:159)). Ultimately, the marja's have a difference of opinion over this matter so wallahu alim.

Just a quick illustration though of the difficulty a lot of Muslims and non-Muslims have with matam involving zanjeer. Yesterday, I was watching tv with my mum (who by the way is a traditional Sunni/non-Wahabbi and who doesn't know yet that I've converted to Shiism) and we were looking at those wonderful scenes of devotion by the pilgrims at Kerbala. The camera then focuses on a group of self-flagellants using blades, walking amongst them was a woman with a child on her shoulders; both were obviously smeared in blood (you couldn't tell accurately whether or not it was their own "claret"). As soon as my mum saw the blades and the woman and child smeared in blood she cried out in disgust.

Although I may be a Shia in-taqiyyah at home, I still felt the obligation to defend my mazhab, especially because my mum knows next-to-nothing about Shiism and the little she knows is that Shias "slice themselves up during Muharram." I basically didn't want her to walk away from the tv with her prejudices about Shiism reinforced.

I may be wrong, insha'Allah I am, but it just seems to feel that those images have placed another barrier in the way of me telling my mum that I've become Shia. I can almost see her reaction..."You're not joining those people who cut their bodies are you?..."  My mum isn't a hard-core bigot but I think that her initial revulsion to those images, in spite of all my explanations, will remain. Images/pictures can, at times, leave a greater impression on the senses and emotions than a thousand words of explanation (and I don't think that this is necessarily a good thing from a rational point-of-view, unfortunately it's rare for human beings to always formulate opinions and responses on the basis of pure reason).

Just as an aside, remember that certain branches of the Qadiri, Shazili, Tijani and Mevlevi ("Whirling Dervishes") tariqas have some pretty full-on zikrs. I've seen some Shazilis in Egypt do stuff like pierce their faces with blades whilst lost in zikr...they claim that these are karamat which Allah bestows upon them. All I'm trying to say really, is that we Shias aren't the only ones with what many people would consider as "dodgy" devotional practices. This is what I tried to explain to my mum (as well as a bit of the history behind Kerbala and the genuinely impassioned responses it provokes in people.)  

Wallahu alim and wasalaam.

Edited by Truth-seeker, 24 April 2003 - 06:49 AM.

[Truth-seeker]

Allahumma sale ala Muhammad wa ale Muhammad.

Salaams to all,

Just to say; sorry if I've said anything in my last post that offends people. Wallahi that wasn't the intention. I know that this topic arouses great passion and division amongst the Shia community.

Love and respect to ALL those who mourn the martyrdom of Sayyid-as-Shuhada with their heart and soul - irrespective of the differing methods used to express that grief.

Wasalaam.

Edited by Truth-seeker, 24 April 2003 - 09:11 AM.

[Peer]

Aslamo 3alikum,

Many reverts may get freaked out by this, but there are many who are attracted by this too (Many Hindus and Sikhs)..

So, its a controversial issue .. cant say more than this..

It is another issue that many people have used it in the wrong way, and many Non-Shias and Non-Muslims have portrayed it in the wrong way.

Ya Sahib uz-Zaman Adrikni Adrikni

Wa'Salam
Ali

[salmany]

Syed Haider Naqvi, on Apr 24 2003, 02:29 AM, said:

Salman can you paste the link of the site u got it from?

thnx

Sallam

You can mail your questions to Istifataa@wilyah.org

I mailed them my question. This is the reply i got.

Shiacat

Do you know how many hadiths that are saying how muslims will follow the Jews and Christians?

As bro truth-seekr said

And do not with your own hands cast yourselves into destruction (2:159)

ALso:

You will follow the tradition of those people who came before you exactly..." [this portion is in the two saheehs]. And he confirmed, when asked whether he meant the Jews and the Christians, by saying "who else?" [Ahmad, Aboo Dawood, hasan hadeeth,]
Sallam

[Renaissance_Man]

Quote

Do you know how many hadiths that are saying how muslims will follow the Jews and Christians?

Muslims have imitated Jews and Christians in terms of corrupting religion, but I'm not aware of any Jews and Christians who practise Qameh-Zani.

[salmany]

Sallam

Look carefully bro. Youll see.

There was a documentary about this to on the discovery channel. They showed Christians and shias. Wallahi!

Sallam

[Dhulfiqar]

I'm not a revert. But I've used Zanjeer. I wanted to be with the big boys so after insisting ... my uncles got a me a custom made miniture zanjeers. This was when I about 4 years old  (maybe 5). They said they saw blood, but I think they were just saying that to make me feel good. Plus I don't even think they were even sharpened

Though I think the trend of Zanjeer/Zani/etc is slowly declining in the US back in the days there were many young people doing it -- now it's those SAME young people but older. But not many new generation Muslims.

Many say giving blood is better, but I don't see those people giving blood, oh well.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

[salmany]

ShiaCat, on Apr 25 2003, 02:37 AM, said:

salmany wrote


The jews dont do this kind of thing,
and the christians started late
they may have seen it among Shias  

btw there is nothing wrong with true way of judaism or christianity, it was revealation of God

Dhulfiqar wrote

Thats so cute!

Sallam

Actually sis Shiacat this was done way before shiism. Also i believe Imam Khameini is smart enough to know what is a way of expressing grief and what isnt.

Quote

A History of Christianity. Paul Johnson. Atheneum. New York. 1976.

    "Religious hysteria expressed itself in almost every imaginable form of outrageous behaviour. Self-flagellation, for instance, had been a feature of certain sophisticated pagan sects absorbed into Christianity in the fourth century."

The Prophet was born in 560 something

Also if you read further in this book :

Quote

"The flagellants marched in procession, led by priests, with banners and candles, and moved from town to town, parading before the parish church, and lashing themselves for hours on end."

sounds pretty shia to me ...wont you say .

by the 10-11th century self flaggelation had become a common part of christian custom.However it died out, although not completely.

Anyway, the thing is no matter how much proof i bring i knwo you wont accept it. Its a fact.

Quote

"Let there arise from amongst you a group of people calling all that is good, enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, they are the ones who shall be successful." [Soorah Aali-`Imraan 3:110]
 
"And help you one another in righteousness and piety, but do not help one another in sin and transgression." [Sooratul Maa`idah 5:2]

"The Believers men and women are protectors to each other, they order the good and forbid the evil" [Sooratut-Tawbah 9:71]

"Whosoever directs a person to do good, will have a reward similar to the one who does that good." [ Related by Muslim (13/38), from Aboo Mas'ood al-Ansaaree (raa)]

And so, the parable of those who are bent on denying the truth is that of the beast which hears the shepherd's cry, and hears in it nothing but calls and cries. Deaf are they, and dumb, and blind, for they do not use their reason (Qur'an 2/171).

Verily, the vilest creatures in the sight of God are those who are bent on denying the truth and therefore do not believe(Qur'an 8/55) 

And there are among them those who listen -but can not hear-, can thou cause the deaf to hearken, even though they will not use their reason? And there are among them those who look -but can not see-, can thou show the right way to the blind, even thou they are unable to see the truth(Qur'an 10/42-43)

sallam

Edited by salmany, 25 April 2003 - 03:40 AM.

[salmany]

ShiaCat, on Apr 24 2003, 07:37 AM, said:

This kind of thing is done by other religions too.


Honestly making a cut on your head is not extreme, its only a small cut, but because its not permitted to clog (the blood) and the hitting brings more blood into the area ,that it bleeds so much. Once its left to itself , it simply heals by itself. I find it more appropiate than beating by chains or hands. It gives me a sense , a  very,very tiny  fraction of what it must have been in karbala.

heyyyy

see the candle!!! cool....hehe looks like i was right ...

anyway you said a cut???


ummmmm ok lets see...

hmmm deosnt seem so small to me...islamic or wat?? your call...

if that is your islam Allah is my witness i am not and neither will i be a part of it EVER !!!! Ya Allah Madad !!

Attached Images

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Edited by salmany, 25 April 2003 - 03:52 AM.

[salmany]

ShiaCat, on Apr 25 2003, 05:08 AM, said:

The question here was how converts see this,
nothing else, thats what I said.
So it bothers you, leave it.

lets agree to disagree
The ocean is one, but there are many
different creatures living in it

Sallam

I guess the last three verses i posted are true !!

No offense. I think its my duty as a muslim not to let reverts fall prey to such unislamic actions

Sallam

[Renaissance_Man]

Bro. salmany, you've shown that self-flagellation was done by others before Shi'ah.  However, the tawaf of the Ka'ba, prostation in prayer, fasting, etc. were also done by mushrikeen.  Certainly, no one believes that Islam borrowed these from paganism.  What you've failed to have shown is whether Shi'ahs derived these from non-Muslims.  History shows that this practise came from Ahlul-Bayt .  Ayatollah Shirazi has shown that Hazret Zaynab was the first person to hit her head:
http://www.shirazi.o...hura.htm#fatawa

Secondly, this is not a practise common to Jews and Christians so it cannot be said it is following a Christian practise.  Also, there is much evidence found in hadith from Sahih-Sittah that suggest Muslims borrowed from the Bible.  And if you study the stories of the Prophets, you see striking resemblences between the behavior of the compansions of the Prophet (saw) and the companions of Musa and Isa .

Edited by Ali786, 25 April 2003 - 03:26 PM.

[salmany]

Sallam

I dont take heed to what ayatullah Shirazi says. To me he seems kind of extreme no offense. I have read his views. I find Imam Khameini much more open minded and precise , without fear of being criticized.

However, its a coincidence that the Christians started in the 10-11th centuries and the first Mass Shia Gatherings for Muharram also started in the 11th century !!!

Coincidence? Or is the Prophets Saying coming true?

Sallam