22 replies to this topic

[Ilyas_Malik]

Salam aleikum,

it is always a question that burns my soul, why shia always curse abu baker (r.a), omar (r.a) did they do anything wrong to ali (r.a). Why u always curse, these people are shaheed, all of them are sahaba, and rasullah Muhammad ( s.a.s) choose them not by him self, Allah choose them, for Muhammad (s.a.s).
I got no problems with shia, they are my brothers, but when some of them curse on of the sahaba, then suddenly shaitan cames into the game.
The Shia have an problem with history, perhabs i have been an an shia too because i would fight with Ali (r.a)
History should be analyse again, people should see where the truth is, and what was going on, with othman, mauwi and the others.
AhlulBayt is also Abu Baker, because Muhammad marriage his daughter, and that didn't happend without a course

[Bassem Abulhassan]

Oh ok I will disregard the example of Fatima , and disregard the example of my aimma that tell us to curse all the oppressors of ahlulbayt .You are not my brother nor a fried but an emeny. The choice is simple: follow and accept Imam Ali and you will succeed. Follow Abu Bakr and Umar and you will perish.


[Mods note : WARNING Cursing is not permissible on this site]

Edited by Abdulhujjah, 12 March 2005 - 07:43 AM.

[Ilyas_Malik]

Ahki, i accept ali, of course i do, but i also accpept Abu Baker, Omar and Othman, they are sahaba, u should not curse omar, or abu baker.
And Fatima, was the daughter of Muhammad and Aisha, u think Allah let Muhammad marriage an munafiq ? ( Aisha, the mother of believers).
La illah il Allah, please u should think in an logic way!

Not all of the shia think that way, Saidi don't curse Omar, but they are shia.
Why are u so extrem ?

[athna_ashari]

asalaamo alikum

Ilyas, how were umar uthman and abu bakr shaheed??? And plz dont' even tell us to praise muawiya.........u should already know what his son Yazeed did to imam hussain the grandsom of the holy prophet...

We dont' curse the sahabas btw..we just ask Allah to take away HIS mercy from them. "Say (O Mohammad): I do not ask of you a wage for this except love of my kinsfolk." A thing about Umar: while the prophet was in his death bed, he asked for a pen and a paper, however, Umar intruded and stated that the Quran was enough for them. (See Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 5 number 716. If you claim that these sahabas were good people, can you point out any one battle they fought in? How do you know that they became muslims with true intentions?
The marriage of prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with biwi aisha served its purpose: to reconcile with those who opposed prophet muhammad's claim as a prophet of Allah....
Here's the story about how abu bakr acted towards biwi fatima in terms of fadak...said in of the sunnah books:
(See Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 5 number 716)


Ilyas brother, i ask you take a good look at the site if you wanna know the truth about shiaism :
http://www.answering...r.org/index.php

..jus a suggestion

---till next time
khuda hafiz

Edited by athna_ashari, 12 March 2005 - 05:23 AM.

[metaphysical]

ok buddy, your a bit confused! 1stly, fatima was the doughter of muhammad(s.a) and KHADIJA (a.s) not aisha. And we dont hate anyone, accept if they oppose ahlulbait and ultimately, the guides which Allah (swt) chose for mankind. Omar was responsible for the death of fatima. Aisha was the cause of thausands of dead muslims only besause she was not benefiting from absolute power when imam ali (a.s) was appointed as the khalifa.
Look my brother, its not for us to hate or judge anyone, i personally pray jumaa with my sunni brothers and i dont critisize anyone. we all agree that abu bakr did help the prophet during his proclamation of islam. However, why did abu bakr take directly disobey the prophet and Allah by taking the right of Ali.

Abu bakr always said that it was the people that chose him, and thus , the prophet forgot to appoint any1. FORGOT!!! i mean come on!!!
if my prophet was that careless not to appoint any1 after him via divine declaration, then surely this religion is NOT COMPLETE!!

but it is, so look back and study who ali ibn abu talib really was, study the event of ghadir khum very CAREFULLY..

wasalam brother,,,

[Changed]

Bassem Abulhassan, on Mar 12 2005, 03:12 AM, said:

Oh ok I will disregard the example of Fatima , and disregard the example of my aimma that tell us to curse all the oppressors of ahlulbayt .You are not my brother nor a fried but an emeny.  The choice is simple: follow and accept Imam Ali   and you will succeed. Follow Abu Bakr and Umar and you will perish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look at the rules of Shiachat:

c) Cursing of the 3 "Caliphs" (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman by name) as well as Sunni scholars is strictly prohibited. This involves cursing by name, swear words and defamatory language. The Mod/Admin team also reserve the right to edit/delete posts or ban members in accordance with the application of these rules. This is the only way to keep peace between the 2 parties and allow constructive discussions. In response to the bold offering of praise to the enemies of Islam and the Ahlulbayt , Muawiyah and Yazeed, by some members on this board, the ShiaChat team have decided to warn (or ban if warnings are exhausted) any member who offers such open praise to these killers of the Ahlulbayt and the pious Companions .

Edited by Abdulhujjah, 12 March 2005 - 07:48 AM.

[Changed]

The cursing of Caliphs is ignorancy, as for Mauwia I can't support him or rely on him or even look at him with a passive eyes, I am with Ali .

Maula Ali is our commander and his opponents are my opponents, If they curse Ali , I curse them. And history is witness of what happened in Siffin etc and after the martydom of Ali .

Those who opposed Ali have boldly voilated the command of Prophet given at time of Farewel Hajj. Prophet said on that day O Allah! Have freindship with him who is friendly whith Ali, have enmity with him who is an enemy to Ali, help those who help Ali and let truth go where there is Ali.

I do personally think that Mauwia openly voilated the command of Master , to decide is you duty, for i wont be questioned of what you do.

[Ilyas_Malik]

Ahki, these lies about Omar responsibility for the death of Fatima are spread thrue wrong teaching, sorry to say that. And Abu Bakr and Omar never fight with Muhammad (s.a.s) please, read first about islam, and not only about imam ali (r.a). Imam Ali was one of the greatest no doubt and and love to see him in jenna.
Once a man came to Ibn Qyim and tells him about an dream, mean while is eyse where bleeding.
I dream to meet Imam Ali (r.a) and tell him that some people say, that Imam Ali speaks bad about Omar and Abu Baker, and Ali was that angry that i push is thunb into his eyse. So in reality is eyse bleed !
And the prophet says (hadith Muslim and Buhkari) : Put the whole Iman of the Umma and the Iman of Abu Baker into an balance, Abu Bakr's Iman would be greater then of the whole umma. !
And when u study History, u could know that Imam Ali was to young in the this period to take the kaliphat, and he stept back !

[Suprah]

Bibi Aisha didnt bear ANY CHILDREN from her marriage with Muhammed , and was a rather restless and easily jealous creature; she mocked Khadija when Prophet used to remember that "OLD WOMAN" , she didnt like Maria Qibti for the fact she bore the Prophet's son Ibrahim , she didnt like the Prophet's action of always standing up in respect of Bibi Fatima and Imam Ali whenever they came to visit him.

Aisha didnt allow Imam Hassan to be buried near his grandfather, Aisha caused thousands of Muslims to die due to HER OWN CIVIL WAR, and her quest of Power, when Imam Ali became the JUST KHALIFA....she disobeyed the Quran by coming out in public after the demise of Prophet.

As far as Abu Bakr is concerned, he was already a very aged man when he was appointed "Caliph" by a handful of individuals at Saqifah and died a natural death. Then why did Prophet say "Mun kuntu Maula fa'haza Ali'un Maula" (Whose Maula I am, Ali is now his Maula) in front of thousands of Hajis at Ghadir Khumm on 18 Zilhajj 10 AH ???

Umar ibn Khattab, who had Imam Ali to thank for his rather smooth rule since Umar would always seek the help of Ameer ul Momineen for all matters (even though Umar regarded himself as a "smart guy" ), and was assasinated by a Persian POW in Abu Lulu Firoz, as revenge for some attrocities Muslim troops under Khalid bin Waleed did while battling the Persian Empire.

Edited by Suprah, 12 March 2005 - 05:50 AM.

[metaphysical]

hehe, you didnt pay attention to anything i wrote did you. Most of what i wrote was from bukhari,

just answer this,
Did the prophet appoint anyone? ...If yes, it was ali, because the event of ghadir khum is widely recorded not only in islamic history but in non islamic too.,

Now, if you say that the prophet didnt appoint anyone, then frankly abu bakr, omar othman and the rest were much wiser and more caring towards the muslim umma than the prophet since they all appointed someone after them. mankinds need for guidance is innate and inherent. how could the prophet suffer so immensely to bring the message to such malevolent and wicked people (i.e. pagans) and then, just let them be! just leave them... saying theyll be allright, i dont need to appoint anyone.

this is rediculous! and satanic completely!

Too young to lead??? heheh, youre joking right? what does age have to do with it? and it imam ali was well above

[Ilyas_Malik]

The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w) said: ‘Do not slander my Companions, for if one of you were to spend an amount of gold equivalent to the size of Mount Uhud, you would not even come halfway up to their level." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3379).

[metaphysical]

hehehe, lol,

look, if you dont want to discuss, just say soo, dont throw garbage at me!
lets just finish it at "lakom dinokom waliyaddin" .

[Ilyas_Malik]

....and in the end we will see brother..!

[metaphysical]

yes we sure will,
but we should be larger than that! after all we are brothers!! we will fight and die for each other! so despite our differences, were always united.

after the power vacuum was created in islam with the passing of the prophet, a jewish man said to imam ali " you muslims are already in conflict and your prophet has only just departed! "
Imam ali replied " despite what you say or believe, we are united as one ummah! but surely your ancestors were worshiping idols before the salt water of the red sea had dried from their feet! so do not cause mischief here!"

[Suprah]

Shia Sunni AKHI.....WE ARE ALL BROTHERS....and dont all brothers have a few friction between them ??

We have our Aima , you have your Caliphs/Kings....nothing else...

[Ruh.Mujarad]

The answer is not complicated brother, Allah (swt) has cursed those who have went against the Prophet (saww) in his (saww)'s words, and Allah (swt) has cursed those who lied and gave rule's other than that of Allah (swt)'s, Allah (swt) has also cursed those who angered Him (swt) and angered and hurt the Prophet (Saww)[1] .. and we see Allah (swt) cursing in many areas[2]

When we look at the first three caliph's, and what they have done, and then compare them with these verses, the answer will become very clear, and if you have open mind, you will accept them insha'Allah

1) Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

Allah's Apostle said, "Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry."[3]

We then look at this narration :

Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle. [4]

Then we look at the verse:
[Yusufali 33:57] Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment.

This is one proof, another proof is this :

Abd al-Rabmin b. Abza narrated It on the authority of his father that a man came to 'Umar and said: I am (at times) affected by seminal emission but find no water. He ('Umar) told him not to say prayer. 'Ammar then said. Do you remember,0 Commander of the Faithful, when I and you were in a military detachment and we had had a seminal emission and did not find water (for taking bath) and you did not say prayer, but as for myself I rolled in dust and said prayer, and (when it was mentioned before) the Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: It was enough for you to strike the ground with your hands and then blow (the dust) and then wipe your face and palms. Umar said: 'Ammar, fear Allah. He said: If you so like, I would not narrate it.

A hadith like this has been transmitted with the same chain of transmitters but for the words: 'Umar said: We hold you responsible for what you claim."[5]

Then we look at the verse :
[Yusufali 2:159] Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-

It is quite clear from the narration that Umar concealed it, when he (umar) told Ammar "fear Allah" and Ammar replying "If you so like, I would not narrate it."

3) Umar and Abu Baker raising their voice over the Prophet (saww)'s voice:
Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

Once the two righteous men, i.e., Abu Bakr and 'Umar were on the verge of destruction (and that was because): When the delegate of Bani Tamim came to the Prophet, one of them (either Abu Bakr or 'Umar) recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habis At-Tamimi Al-Hanzali, the brother of Bani Majashi (to be appointed as their chief), while the other recommended somebody else. Abu Bakr said to 'Umar, "You intended only to oppose me." 'Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you!" Then their voices grew louder in front of the Prophet whereupon there was revealed: 'O you who believe! Do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet..a great reward.' (49.2-3) Ibn Az-Zubair said, 'Thence forward when 'Umar talked to the Prophet, he would talk like one who whispered a secret and would even fail to make the Prophet hear him, in which case the Prophet would ask him (to repeat his words)." [6]

I believe this is sufficient proof to prove the point ..

Wa
--------------------

[1]ان الذين يؤذون الله ورسوله لعنهم الله في الدنيا والاخرة واعد لهم عذابا مهينا(33:57)--Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained
[2]2:88, 2:89, 2:159, 2:161, 3:61, 3:87, and many more..
[3]Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 61: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#005.057.111
[4]Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#004.053.325
[5]Sahih Muslim, Book 003, Number 0718: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...t.html#003.0718
[6]Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 405: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...tml#009.092.405

Edited by Imami_ali, 12 March 2005 - 09:13 AM.

[Aliya]

Umar was killed by Abu Lulu Firoz because of a personal financial matter Abu Lulu was angry about (thus, not a martyr, killed for personal reasons). this is documented in sunni sites.

Uthman was killed by a group of people riled by Aisha who was angry that he had lowered her monetary stipend to be equal to that of the other wives, as the previous caliphs had given her more than the other wives (see http://www.dartablig..._vol1/index.asp for details) And he was also very corrupt and an oppressor, which made the people angry. Thus, also not a martyr to be killed for personal and corrupt reasons.

Wa Salaam

Edited by Aliya, 12 March 2005 - 10:00 AM.

[Bassem Abulhassan]

Why are you people so weak that you need to follow guidelines to cater to the Sunni kafirs. Before you jump on me this is what Rasulallah said: "Treat them as muslims in this life and kafirs in the afterlife. Now the moderators want to tell us not to curse?!?!! Please moderators , you think you are doing something good by preventing fitna, but your actually hurting yourselves. The fitna started in Saqifa which lead directly to the slaughter of our Imam . This is a forum for people who are at least trying to grasp the wilayah of Imam Ali(as). How are you helping us by directly going against the sunnah of the Prophet and the infallible aimma . Maybe you don't understand what tawalla and tabarra are. These people you defend are from the ancestry of the people who murdered and disregarded your ahlul bayt . Tell me my dear moderators how you expect to achieve intercession from the creations you claim to love, but shack up with their enemies. One more thing, Imam Jaafer (he is still your Imam isn't he? He has said that cursing the oppressors of the Ahlul Bayt is more loved to us than Salat. Think about it before you flex your moderator power.WS

[zaigham abbas]

Ilyas_Malik, on Mar 12 2005, 03:48 AM, said:

Ahki, i accept ali, of course i do, but i also accpept Abu Baker, Omar and Othman, they are sahaba, u should not curse omar, or abu baker.
And Fatima, was the daughter of Muhammad and Aisha,  u think Allah let Muhammad marriage an munafiq ? ( Aisha, the mother of believers).
La illah il Allah, please u should think in an logic way!

Not all of the shia think that way, Saidi don't curse Omar, but they are shia.
Why are u so extrem ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well its out of habit u know,shias after all have since their origin never in practice helped the Imams.So this what they had to resolve to.

[Ruh.Mujarad]

Brother mohsinkhan, this board does not allow the cursing of the three caliph's for unity, and that to Allah (swt) is more important at this time than cursing them ..

Wa

[Abdulhujjah]

Good post Br. Mohsen Khan, couldnt have said it better, but i think its time we should be closing this thread. Because it does no good for living in tolerance.


Wassalaam