29 replies to this topic

[Commander]

Question asked to Khameni.

Question 325: There is a sect that say Ali is not Allah but say he is not less then Allah, so what is the rule regarding them

Answer :If they don't say in association with Allah the one....then the rule is that they are not mushriks.

So the conclusion of the Fatwah of Khameni is that one can say that Hazrat Ali is not less then Allah in anything but shouldn't associate Hazrat Ali with Allah.

How can a group who says that Hazrat Ali "is not less than Allah" not be Mushriks.

[faithmuslima]

Salam Alaykum.

Quote

So the conclusion of the Fatwah of Khameni is that one can say that Hazrat Ali  is not less then Allah in anything but shouldn't associate Hazrat Ali  with Allah.

This applies to whether or not the person would be considered a mushrik.

[Ibn Ali]

:SL:

Saying Ali is not less than Allah would mean 2 things, either he is more than Allah or equal to. Such a person who makes a statement is a Mushrik.

[Logic]

Ibn Ali, on Nov 11 2004, 07:53 AM, said:

:SL:

Saying Ali is not less than Allah would mean 2 things, either he is more than Allah or equal to. Such a person who makes a statement is a Mushrik.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you didnt understand faithmuslima's answer.

Question 325: There is a sect that say Ali is not Allah but say he is not less then Allah, so what is the rule regarding them

Answer :If they don't say in association with Allah the one....then the rule is that they are not mushriks.

Key word being Association.

Now look at the definition of it.

Main Entry: as·so·ci·a·tion
Pronunciation: &-"sO-sE-'A-sh&n, -shE-
Function: noun
1 a : the act of associating b : the state of being associated : COMBINATION, RELATIONSHIP
2 : an organization of persons having a common interest : SOCIETY
3 : something linked in memory or imagination with a thing or person
4 : the process of forming mental connections or bonds between sensations, ideas, or memories

[Ibn Ali]

:SL:

I was just making a statement. But do explain the fatwa. What did Khamenei mean (in common english)?

[Yaali110]

786/110



Simple english.

Allah (swt) is wa7dahu la-shareek. If a person agrees to it and then says that Ali (a.s) has properties (sifaa't) like Allah (swt) ...by Rule, the person is not Mushrik.

Let me explain with an example to make it simple.

Ali (a.s) was Ra7eem and Rahman, and many people in this world are. But, ali (a.s) and other people cannot be called as Al-Rahman. Hope, you get the difference.

You can be Rahman, but not Al-Rahman. Allah (swt) is Al-Aziz. Ali (a.s) can be Aziz. we cannot say he is Al-aziz, al-jabbar.

Like, his name Ali. Ali is name of Allah (swt) too. But, we call Allah (swt) Al-Ali.

Same with Mohammad (saw). He is Karim, and Ra7eem. We do not say that he is Ar-Raheem.

Hope, it helps.

Ma3'salam

Asad Ali.

[ailia]

the fatwa is very clear & simple.......don't try to create confusion,.......read it once again;

Answer :If they don't say in association with Allah the one....then the rule is that they are not mushriks.

Quote

Answer :If they don't say in association with Allah the one....then the

so.........bro[?]it not about worshiping ALI .....AGHA KHAMENI SAYS THAT IF THEY DON'T..........THEN THEY ARE NOT MUSHRIK..........so if they do so, THEN THEY ARE MUSHRIK.

ailia

[Abbas]

Salam Alaikum

Forget the word "association", look at the actual Arabic.

Ayatullah Sayyid Khamanai says:

IF they do not speak of being SHAREEK of Allah, the Ahad, the Mannan, the Muta'al, then they are not Mushriks.

So whats there to discuss now? Next topic

[Commander]

No one is greater than or equal to Allah in any matter, in any sense. Period.

It is quite crystal clear that those people say Hazrat Ali is not less than Allah which is a crystal clear case of shirk but of course you cannot see it. You know why? See my signature.

[vsg]

^ ya bro ur sig is so true.........................................ur attitude in this thread really does proove it aswell

[Baatil Ka Kaatil]

Commander, on Nov 11 2004, 05:48 AM, said:

Question asked to Khameni.

Question 325: There is a sect that say Ali is not Allah but say he is not less then Allah, so what is the rule regarding them

Answer :If they don't say in association with Allah the one....then the rule is that they are not mushriks.

So the conclusion of the Fatwah of Khameni is that one can say that Hazrat Ali   is not less then Allah in anything but shouldn't associate Hazrat Ali   with Allah.

How can a group who says that Hazrat Ali "is not less than Allah" not be Mushriks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does it say they are believers either?

[Changed]

Those who Worship Maula Ali are Mushirks and are out of the fold of Islam.
Maula Ali is servant of Allah and its foolishness to think he has any divinity.
Maula Ali is lower than Prophet Muhammed , and is not a nabi or prophet rather Maula Ali is Commander of faithful (Amirul Mominaen) which the Ummayyad find hard to believe in.

[Logic]

Commander, on Nov 11 2004, 10:37 AM, said:

No one is greater than or equal to Allah in any matter, in any sense. Period.

It is quite crystal clear that those people say Hazrat Ali is not less than Allah which is a crystal clear case of shirk but of course you cannot see it. You know why? See my signature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You really have no idea of what just occured between your first post and the one above.

[Hizbullah]

Just forget about the question. It's not very clear. I mean: how can someone say that Ali is not a diety but at the same time say that he is no less than Allah. It's illogical.

That's why the Imam gave the general rule as the answer:

"If they don't say that Allah the exalted has a partner, then they are not considered to be mushrikeen."

wassalam

[Gypsy]

Topic re-opened

Edited by Zareen, 11 November 2004 - 05:30 PM.

[Muhammed Ali]

Hizbullah, on Nov 11 2004, 11:20 PM, said:

Just forget about the question.  It's not very clear.  I mean: how can someone say that Ali is not a diety but at the same time say that he is no less than Allah.  It's illogical.

That's why the Imam gave the general rule as the answer:

"If they don't say that Allah the exalted has a partner, then they are not considered to be mushrikeen."

wassalam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

some good replies on this thread

[Logic]

Thank you Zareen.

As you can see people come up with their own home made interpretation and try to find faults in the scholar's work whereas the fault lies in their own thinking.

The fatwa is correct but the reasoning provided by commander is wrong. Abbas, Hizbullah and faithmuslima has interpreted this fatwa correctly.

[Commander]

Hizbullah said:

Just forget about the question. It's not very clear. I mean: how can someone say that Ali is not a diety but at the same time say that he is no less than Allah. It's illogical.

This is not illogical but hypocrisy. Ask a qadiyani why you do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad and he will say "Hey who said we do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad . There is not Prophet after him." He will give you theories after theories to prove that he belief in the finality of Prophet Muhammad but in the same breath they will say that we also believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. Great!

Same is the case with you people.

BKK said:

Does it say they are believers either?

Hmm....it means in your religion your aalims give "dubious" fatwas with no clear meaning. The answer to that question is as simple as 1 + 1 = 2 but of course why would he do that which will expose his beliefs.

[Yaali110]

Commander, on Nov 12 2004, 02:45 AM, said:

Hizbullah said:

Just forget about the question. It's not very clear. I mean: how can someone say that Ali is not a diety but at the same time say that he is no less than Allah. It's illogical.

This is not illogical but hypocrisy. Ask a qadiyani why you do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad and he will say "Hey who said we do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad . There is not Prophet after him." He will give you theories after theories to prove that he belief in the finality of Prophet Muhammad but in the same breath they will say that we also believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. Great!

Same is the case with you people.

BKK said:

Does it say they are believers either?

Hmm....it means in your religion your aalims give "dubious" fatwas with no clear meaning. The answer to that question is as simple as 1 + 1 = 2 but of course why would he do that which will expose his beliefs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read the fatwa in Arbic. English translation can make it lose its originality,

The question is about shirk. By definition, shirk means believing in a partner with Allah (swt). If you believe in a partner you are mushrik, if not then no. simple as 1+1. The main stress of the question is on SHIRK, nothing else at all. He replied what he was asked, he does not give any dubious or unnecessary lengthy answers. In a simple answer he told what makes a person mushrik. Thats it.

Hope it helps.

wa'salam

Asad Ali.

[al-syedia]

well these ppl keep on bringin foolish things

[SHIA-OF-ALI]

Commander, on Nov 12 2004, 08:45 AM, said:

Hizbullah said:

Just forget about the question. It's not very clear. I mean: how can someone say that Ali is not a diety but at the same time say that he is no less than Allah. It's illogical.

This is not illogical but hypocrisy. Ask a qadiyani why you do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad and he will say "Hey who said we do not believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad . There is not Prophet after him." He will give you theories after theories to prove that he belief in the finality of Prophet Muhammad but in the same breath they will say that we also believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. Great!

Same is the case with you people.

BKK said:

Does it say they are believers either?

Hmm....it means in your religion your aalims give "dubious" fatwas with no clear meaning. The answer to that question is as simple as 1 + 1 = 2 but of course why would he do that which will expose his beliefs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you talking about?

The shia do not believe that there is another prophet after rasool . You are not making any sense at all here.

As for saying that the shia hold Imam ali as a person of worship you can also forget that idea as well. This common idea by the sunni's does not bear any weight at all. You should not believe everyting that you hear regarding the shia.

Edited by SHIA-OF-ALI, 12 November 2004 - 11:51 AM.

[Abu Al-Hassanain]

To answer this question we must first look at the meaning of Shirk, in its Arabic or Quranic context. From my limited knowledge, the Word "Shirk" in its accordance with Allah(swt) means generaly to associate any one or anything by any of his Qualities i.e beliving others apart from Allah(swt) can give life and death, make it rain, forgive sins or even beliving anything or anyone always existed and will always exist..Passing any of Allahs attributes or characteristics to any one or anything other than Allah is Shirk. The prophet(pbuh) even claimed consulting a fortune teller is a form of Shirk, doing deeds for the sake of others than Allah(swt) is a form of Shirk and then again Shirk falls into many categories.

And this is what Maulana Ayatollah Al-Uthma Sayyed Khamini(qas) (I belive) is saying in this fatwa.

However one may carry characteristics of Allah(swt) but to a certain extent and far from his level of that certain characteristic. For e.g we are all living (HAY) but Allah(swt) is Al-Hay (THE LIVING ONE). One can be generouse (KARIM) but Allah(swt) is Al-Karim (THE GENEROUS) one can posses some of Allah(swt) attributes but not to he Almightys extent. Therefore according to the Fatwa of Hujjatul Muslimeen(qas) those who PLACE Imam Ali(as) or any other being or object on the same level of Allah(swt) is a Musrik.

Edited by Abu Al-Hassanain, 13 November 2004 - 11:03 AM.

[ansarIslam]

Quote

IF they do not speak of being SHAREEK of Allah, the Ahad, the Mannan, the Muta'al, then they are not Mushriks.

I got it. So one can say Ali is equal to Allah but should not make him a partner in what Allah dominates or controls. Which means Ali have his own kingdom NO less than what Allah has. And Ali too have no partners in this kingdom....Great Fatwah.

[Abbas]

Quote

I got it. So one can say Ali is equal to Allah but should not make him a partner in what Allah dominates or controls. Which means Ali have his own kingdom NO less than what Allah has. And Ali  too have no partners in this kingdom....Great Fatwah.

What, shirk is different to making equals? Lol
I suggest you find out about shirk before you comment on it
Shirk (making somebody shareek of Allah) includes making anybody His equal.

[ansarIslam]

Quote

What, shirk is different to making equals? Lol
I suggest you find out about shirk before you comment on it
Shirk (making somebody shareek of Allah) includes making anybody His equal.

lol

Explain that too khameni who made people who equals Allah to Ali as Muslims.

Also learn the meaning of equal

equal —adj. 1 (often foll. by to, with) the same in quantity, quality, size, degree, level, etc. 2 evenly balanced (an equal contest). 3 having the same rights or status (human beings are essentially equal). 4 uniform in application or effect. —n. person or thing equal to another, esp. in rank or quality. —v. (-ll-; US -l-) 1 be equal to. 2 achieve something that is equal to.  be equal to have the ability or resources for. [Latin aequalis]


And the sect believe Ali is not less than Allah in anything which means Ali=to Allah.

Edited by ansarIslam, 15 November 2004 - 03:31 AM.