148 replies to this topic

[ShiaSoldier@2007]

  

He was Hazrat Abu Talib's favourite servant but not because he killed Umar..

[Socrates]

ninjaslim, on 08 June 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:

Does that mean that Imam Ali would have killed Umar had those not been the circumstances?

May Allah curse the ones who lie against Maula Ali .

Forget about circumstances, had Umar or anyone from that party dare to dig up the grave of Fatima that day, then Ali would have filled the whole of Madina with a stream of blood. When he came out bare headed and barefooted, with his sleeves rolled up and his thobe ripped from the front, and his eyes were red, and he said, whoever walks over this line, they are asking for their death sentence, everyone remembered that hadith of the Prophet (saw) when he said if you see Abul Hasan in such a state, do not come near him otherwise you will be finished.

[akamp]

aladdin, on 22 June 2010 - 01:35 AM, said:

Salam brother,
Don't hold your breath for an answer, Nader Zaveri is no where to be found when it comes to helping the Shia.

Yeah he does not, neither does Jondab Azdi. There are a few other people like them, but since they are quiet for the time being I will not name them.

Nader, he is such an obvious. Remember when he was trying to prove that scholars give reasons when they weaken someone in Rijjal, but dear mac and botta contradicted him. He also shamelessly advocated for doing away with the Quranic requirement of witnesses for the sake of upholding the credibility of Rijjal system. He disappeared altogether from that thread when confronted. He and his disappearing acts, and then he has the face to enter other threads as if nothing has happened.

Someone should tell him that he is wasting his time here. The shias who remain silent on this forum know exactly for what he actually is.

By the way only a Wahhabi will put Quran and logic on a back burner to uphold Rijjal, becasue he knows his religion will die otherwise. Like my friend Botta, he will not listen to any logical incoherency in man made laws (If these could be called laws at all, in fact scholars could say whatever they felt like on a day) upon which Rijjal is based. He will quietly follow those faulty Rijjal principals, when in his practical life he would never do the same as a basis of common sense.

[aladdin]

akamp, on 25 June 2010 - 02:12 AM, said:

Yeah he does not, neither does Jondab Azdi. There are a few other people like them, but since they are quiet for the time being I will not name them.

Nader, he is such an obvious. Remember when he was trying to prove that scholars give reasons when they weaken someone in Rijjal, but dear mac and botta contradicted him. He also shamelessly advocated for doing away with the Quranic requirement of witnesses for the sake of upholding the credibility of Rijjal system. He disappeared altogether from that thread when confronted. He and his disappearing acts, and then he has the face to enter other threads as if nothing has happened.

Someone should tell him that he is wasting his time here. The shias who remain silent on this forum know exactly for what he actually is.

By the way only a Wahhabi will put Quran and logic on a back burner to uphold Rijjal, becasue he knows his religion will die otherwise. Like my friend Botta, he will not listen to any logical incoherency in man made laws (If these could be called laws at all, in fact scholars could say whatever they felt like on a day) upon which Rijjal is based. He will quietly follow those faulty Rijjal principals, when in his practical life he would never do the same as a basis of common sense.

Salam brother,

I couldn't have said it better! You are right that, "Someone should tell him that he is wasting his time here. The shias who remain silent on this forum know exactly for what he actually is."

[Abdaal]

Well I manage to find this report which suggests that Abu Lulu was a shia.


"Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman narrates: Once on the 9th of Rabi' al-awwal I went to Rasulullah. I saw Ameerul Mu'mineen Ali Murtaza, Imam Hasan and Imam Husain also there. All were busy eating. Rasulullah smiling in great happiness said to Hasan and Husain: 'Sons, today is the day on which Allah will destroy your enemy and the enemy of your grandfather, and Allah will accept the curse of your mother (Fatimah). Eat sons, eat! Today is the day that Allah accepts the deeds of your Shia (partisans), and beloved. Eat sons, eat! Today is the day when the power of your enemy and the enemy of your grandfather will be broken and annihilated in the dust. Eat sons, eat! Today is the day when Fir'on (i.e. the Pharaoh or tyrant) to my Ahl al-Bayt, the one who will oppress and persecute them and who will usurp their rights, will be destroyed. Hudhayfah said: I exclaimed: 'O Rasulullah! Will there be such an evil person in your Ummah, who will perpetrate such villainy?' Rasulullah replied: 'O Hudhayfah! Among the munafiqs (hypocrites) there will be one idol who will be the leader of the group of munafiqeen. He will carry in his hand the whip of cruelty and injustice; he will prevent people from the Path of truth; he will alter the Qur'an; he will change my Sunnah and my ways; he will oppress my Wasi (Appointee) Ali bin Abi Talib and he will deprive my daughter, Fatimah of her rights. My daughter will then curse him. Allah Ta'ala will accept her la'nat (curse) and prayers.' Hudhayfah then said: 'O Rasulullah! Why do you not supplicate to Allah to destroy this Fir'on and oppressor in your very lifetime?' Rasulullah replied: 'O Hudhayfah! I do not regard it proper to interfere in the decisions of Allah Ta'ala... But, I have requested Allah Ta'ala to grant excellence and superiority to that day when that oppressor and Fir'on is dispatched to Jahannum (i.e. when he is destroyed). That day should be decreed superior to all other days so that honoring of that day becomes a Sunnah for my Shiane Ahle Bait (i.e. partisans of my family). Allah Ta'ala then sent this Wahi (revelation): 'It has already been decreed in My Eternal Knowledge that the usurping Munafiqs will persecute you and your family. They will inflict many hardships on you and your family. O Muhammad! Ali has been awarded your rank because of these (impending) hardships which will be perpetrated on him by the usurper of his rights and the Fir'on of this Ummah. I have commanded the angels of the 7 heavens to rejoice and celebrate Eid [disambiguation needed] on the day he (i.e. Umar) is killed - this is for the sake of the partisans and lovers of the Ahle Bait. I have commanded the recording Angels to cease recording the sins of My servants for 3 days from that day. This is in honor of that day (on which Umar will be murdered). O Muhammad! Three days grace and permission in general to commit sins have been given in your honor and in honor of your appointee (Ali) ... Every year on this day, will I free from Jahannam (Hell) thousands of your Shias.' Hudhayfah says: 'After Rasulullah said this, he arose and left the room and went to the house of Umm Salamah. After having heard this talk of Rasulullah I was convinced of Umar's kufr. There remained no doubt in this. Finally, after the demise of Rasulullah, I witnessed the fitnah [disambiguation needed] which he (Umar) created. He exhibited the kufr which was concealed in him. He reneged from Islam and usurped the Imamate [disambiguation needed] and Khilafat. To achieve this end he adopted the most shameless methods. He altered the Qur'an and burnt the holy house of Rasulullah. He pleased the Jews, Christians and the Magians and displeased Fatimah and the entire Ahle Bait, and he conspired to have Ameerul Mu'mineen (i.e. Ali) murdered. He made haram (forbidden) what Allah had made halal (permissible) and legalized what Allah had made unlawful. He slammed the door against the face and stomach of Fatimah. Hudhayfah then said: 'Finally Allah Ta'ala accepted the curses of His Holy Nabi (i.e. Prophet Muhammad) and his daughter in regard to this Munafiq (i.e. Umar) and had him killed at the hands, of his killer (Abu-Lu'lu'ah). May there be the Rahmat (Mercy) of Allah on his (Umar's) killer (i.e. Abu-Lu'lu'ah).

[akamp]

Abdaal, on 30 June 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

Well I manage to find this report which suggests that Abu Lulu was a shia.

You have failed to provide any reference.

Where does it say that Abu Lulu was a Shia.

Edited by akamp, 30 June 2010 - 12:57 PM.

[Abdaal]

I interpreted him to be one due to the source above. Would you send blessing toward a non-shia ? Also, the shia who gave me this ahadith interpreted it this way.

[Aal-e-Imran]

What I don't get is how the heck is there a shrine for Abu Lulu in Iran when it is reported that he committed suicide right after he killed Umar - which was in Medina, Saudi Arabia?

Wassalam

[ARKAAN]

Aal-e-Imran, on 30 June 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

What I don't get is how the heck is there a shrine for Abu Lulu in Iran when it is reported that he committed suicide right after he killed Umar - which was in Medina, Saudi Arabia?

Wassalam

The answer is simple they ( persians ) hated umar because he was the one who appointed his best field commanders to conquer the persian empire ...and that exactly what happened

Even Ali couldn't do it

[haideriam]

ARKAAN, on 01 July 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

The answer is simple they ( persians ) hated umar because he was the one who appointed his best field commanders to conquer the persian empire ...and that exactly what happened

Even Ali couldn't do it

the first sentence can be analyzed and possibly discussed
but
why did you have to add the second sentence

is ali(as) not your calipha e rashid(rightly guided)
not liking the shias does not/should not mean that you also bear a grudge towards one of your caliphs
for Allah's(swt) sake he is one of your caliph too
there is a faint smell of nasbiism here
i pray i am wrong

[ARKAAN]

haideriam, on 01 July 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

the first sentence can be analyzed and possibly discussed
but
why did you have to add the second sentence

is ali(as) not your calipha e rashid(rightly guided)
not liking the shias does not/should not mean that you also bear a grudge towards one of your caliphs
for Allah's(swt) sake he is one of your caliph too
there is a faint smell of nasbiism here
i pray i am wrong

Correct me If I'm wrong but did Ali conquer any land? you can call me nasibi I personally don't mind, there is 1 BILLION nasibi who shares my view..

Edited by ARKAAN, 01 July 2010 - 09:50 PM.

[89jghur32]

ARKAAN, on 01 July 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

The answer is simple they ( persians ) hated umar because he was the one who appointed his best field commanders to conquer the persian empire ...and that exactly what happened

Even Ali couldn't do it

What relevance does this have to anything?  As if this somehow reduces the rank of Imam Ali .  Enlightenment and restoration was the way of his caliphate and that's more important than the expansion of an empire.

[lotfilms]

ARKAAN, on 01 July 2010 - 09:46 PM, said:

Correct me If I'm wrong but did Ali conquer any land?

1) Who cares about conquering?  It is rather materialistic to judge someone's success by wealth and lands
2) Perhaps Ali was occupied by a Mother of the Believers and a guy(la) who you say was a sahbi and "the writer of revelation" starting civil wars against him, in addition to the khawarij(la) and then that accursed "writer of the revelation" causing Ali and then his son trouble the whole time during their Khilafa.  

mu'awiya(la) essentially making Shaam secede from the Ali's reign, stirring up hatred against Ali , supporting 'Aisha in the Battle of Jamal, starting the Battle of Siffin, ordering the assassination of the governor of Egypt (Muhammad bin Abi Bakr ), laughing his head off at the Battle of Nahrawan.  Perhaps Imam Ali was a bit occupied, no?

And then mua'wiya's splitting of the Ummah in half during al-Hasan's Khilafa and then eventually taking power away from him and ordering him(as) to be poisoned and then ordering Ali(as) to be cursed during the Friday Khutbah.

Imam Ali was dealing with quite an evil foe, no?

But i'll let him speak for himself:

Quote

I swear by my life that if you do not leave your hypocrisy, avarice and your rebellious activities they will make themselves known to you. Instead of your demanding them they will demand for you. On the sea and land and in the plains and on the hills they will make their presence known to you and you will not find it easy or pleasant to face them and will curse the day when you demanded to see them.
http://www.al-islam....er9.htm#letter9

Quote

You have misguided the whole generation of men around you. Having no faith in the truth of Islam you have led others astray. You have thrown them in the depths of ignorance. You have enticed them towards the abyss for unenlightenment and illiteracy. They were out to reach truth but they cannot reach it now, because of you. They have lost the true path of religion. They are becoming sceptics and most of them are returning to infidelity of pre-Islamic days.

Theirs is an unfortunate plight. A few wise men from amongst them who have seen your ways and who realized the intensity of your viciousness and your cunningness in turning them away from the ways of Islam, have given you up and have turned towards Allah. They are fortunate and may be blessed.

O Mu'awiya! Fear Allah, do not let the Devil lead you to Hell, throw away its yoke which is tied round your neck, remember that this life will after all come to an end and soon you will have to face the next world.
http://www.al-islam....32.htm#letter32

was salam

Edited by lotfilms, 01 July 2010 - 10:23 PM.

[Aal-e-Imran]

ARKAAN, on 01 July 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

Aal-e-Imran, on 30 June 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

What I don't get is how the heck is there a shrine for Abu Lulu in Iran when it is reported that he committed suicide right after he killed Umar - which was in Medina, Saudi Arabia?

Wassalam

The answer is simple they ( persians ) hated umar because he was the one who appointed his best field commanders to conquer the persian empire ...and that exactly what happened

Even Ali couldn't do it

I think you missed the point of my post. Which was to allude to the fact that perhaps that shrine doesn't exactly belong to Abu Lulu the killer of Umar - since Abu Lulu died in Medina.

Wassalam

[HellHound]

ARKAAN, on 01 July 2010 - 09:46 PM, said:

Correct me If I'm wrong but did Ali conquer any land? you can call me nasibi I personally don't mind, there is 1 BILLION nasibi who shares my view..

Correct ME if I'm wrong, but does the Quran command us or any of the holy Aimmah   to conquer land, or to expand into a larger "empire"? Do you think of Islam as an empire only? What happened to Islam being a mercy to ALL of MANKIND?
Also, Brother Lotfilms has given an impeccable response as to why Imam Ali    didn't push for this "expansion".
Are you trying to degrade the status of Imam Ali with the pathetic excuse of the argument that Ali made no effort in "spreading" Islam as the first two did? Sorry but these efforts are futile.

[ARKAAN]

Aal-e-Imran, on 01 July 2010 - 11:15 PM, said:

I think you missed the point of my post. Which was to allude to the fact that perhaps that shrine doesn't exactly belong to Abu Lulu the killer of Umar - since Abu Lulu died in Medina.

Wassalam

Even if he did die in Madina, that doesn't mean the persians couldn't  make a shrine for him so they could celebrate his " victory " every year !?

According to Wikipedia the tomb has been destroyed by the iranian gov

Edited by ARKAAN, 02 July 2010 - 07:32 AM.

[Aal-e-Imran]

Quote

Even if he did die in Madina, that doesn't mean the persians couldn't  make a shrine for him so they could celebrate his " victory " every year !?

Yes it does actually. You don't exactly need a shrine to celebrate his victory.

ARKAAN, on 02 July 2010 - 07:27 AM, said:

According to Wikipedia the tomb has been destroyed by the iranian gov

I don't know if it was "destroyed", but I do know it was shut down a few years ago.

Wassalam

[Muhamad]

shia4life, on 07 January 2003 - 04:56 PM, said:

Salam alaikum

Salmany brother, i have 2 question's for you:

Abu lulu was responsible for the murder of umar, what will happen to abu lulu?

Umar, on the other hand, was responsible for the murder of Lady Fatimah Al-Zahra A.S, so what will happen to him?

Brother even after you know what Umar did, yet you still love him, why?

Just remember one thing Fatimah Al-Zahra A.S was the prophet's daughter, the prophet will not be happy with what Umar did! U know this, but still you hail him.

By admitting what Umar did, you will not become a shia, like ive said in another post its more than that.

Salams

Ya Ali Madad!

Umar was responsible for the murder of Lady Fatimah Al-Zahra A.S. .. man, that's the first time i hear that one!!! what's your evidence?? who claimed that gigantic offense???

[ShiaWoman]

Not sure why SHIAS on this page are thinking Abu Lulu'ah "went too far", "did something wrong", etc...??

Umar (LA) was a STAUNCH ENEMY of Imam Ali and Bibi Fatema Zahra (SA), and Abu Lulu'ah was a STAUNCH LOVER of the same . If we claim to be Shia, then we should have Tabarra in our hearts for the enemies of Ahlul Bayt . We are not hippies. We are not pacifists. We are SHIA. Alhamdulillah!

For the Sunni brothers and sisters, with all due respect, if someone was a staunch enemy of your parents, to the point that he murdered your mother and usurped the rightful position of your father, would you still respect him...? The Ahlul Bayt are our MASTERS. Even higher to us than our parents in status, to the point where we are ready to be sacrificed for Them. Please try and understand that you need to research the history for yourself, rather than just go by what you've been told.

We DO ask Allah swt to remove His Mercy from the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt , whoever they may be. However, we do NOT disrespect the esteemed Sahaba , such as Meesam , Salman and Abu Dharr , because they had no enmity with the Ahlul Bayt , for whom all of Creation exists.

[Inglip]

who is meesam?

[ShiaWoman]

Inglip, on 13 February 2011 - 05:17 AM, said:

who is meesam?

Meesam was a Faithful Companion of the Prophet (SAWW). This should help: http://www.ezsoftech...amic/meesam.asp

[syed taqvi]

Zareen, on 07 January 2003 - 12:59 AM, said:

I think I have heard few pro-Sunni people says that Abu Lulu was a Persian and Shia and he murdered the caliph because the caliph usurped Imam Ali's right.

ohh! good... atleast they finally agree that shias weren't something that came up as khwarij, or people who emerged in the end of Uthman's reign....
the textbooks here state a similar story, yet for me this all conclude with the fact that Umer wasnt a fair judge, cz he should have asked for Abu lulu's income rather than his skill.....

[rotten_coconut]

Do we have any authentic ahadith from the ma'sumin regarding Abu Lulu?

[aladdin]

akamp, on 25 June 2010 - 02:12 AM, said:

Yeah he does not, neither does Jondab Azdi. There are a few other people like them, but since they are quiet for the time being I will not name them.

Nader, he is such an obvious. Remember when he was trying to prove that scholars give reasons when they weaken someone in Rijjal, but dear mac and botta contradicted him. He also shamelessly advocated for doing away with the Quranic requirement of witnesses for the sake of upholding the credibility of Rijjal system. He disappeared altogether from that thread when confronted. He and his disappearing acts, and then he has the face to enter other threads as if nothing has happened.

Someone should tell him that he is wasting his time here. The shias who remain silent on this forum know exactly for what he actually is.

By the way only a Wahhabi will put Quran and logic on a back burner to uphold Rijjal, becasue he knows his religion will die otherwise. Like my friend Botta, he will not listen to any logical incoherency in man made laws (If these could be called laws at all, in fact scholars could say whatever they felt like on a day) upon which Rijjal is based. He will quietly follow those faulty Rijjal principals, when in his practical life he would never do the same as a basis of common sense.

Salam brother,

Very true and haven't seen you lately.

Abdaal, on 30 June 2010 - 04:31 PM, said:

I interpreted him to be one due to the source above. Would you send blessing toward a non-shia ? Also, the shia who gave me this ahadith interpreted it this way.

I wonder who is that Shia who gave you this hadith and interpreted it this way?

[P. Ease]

The fact that there aren't a complete batch of sahih ahadith about abu lulu should tell all of you enough. Stop discussing this nonsense. It is of no importance to us or to the sunni's. The fact that the death of umar and abu lulu are both subjects of a political agenda upheld by saudia arabia and iran should tell you enough.