148 replies to this topic

[Ali187em]

salmany, on Jan 7 2003, 05:13 PM, said:

sallam

Its disgraceful he has any sort of maqaam...honestly speaking...

salaam

i remember the first time i heard about this on a wahabi site,
i asked my parents then devout shia in my family and none of them had heard these chants etc.
===============

[salmany]

sallam

if you read the posts im sure you may notice some people may have actually considered him a "hero"...

sallam

[Abdulhujjah]

In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful

All praise is due to Allah Lord of the worlds

May Allah shower his blessings upon Muhammad and his Progeny and curse their enemies from the first to the last.

Salam@lai.com


Brother Salmany,

I find you more intelligent and understanding than to be fleeing from an argument, I'm glad you've returned. Please overlook certain comments we might say out of our emotions without realising your presence. I'm certain you know our true feelings towards the three caliphs, so excuse us when we say something that may offend, instead please bring it to our attention, ok habibi.

Look man, I've got plenty of abuse to look forward to in over two weeks, I'm going to Wahabiland!!!  




Wassalaam

[salmany]

sallam

brother i didnt flee i left because someone would make me say something bad. Just one question? Was abu lulu a good man for killing umar ?

[Abdulhujjah]

In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful

All praise is due to Allah Lord of the worlds

May Allah shower his blessings upon Muhammad and his Progeny and curse their enemies from the first to the last.

Salam@lai.com

Honestly brother Salmany, I've heard two versions, my friends say he was a shi'ite and a good man, but my father says he wasn't a good man in fact mughirah brought him into the picture and we arent fond of mughirah.

You cant be a good man just because you kill someone that the shiite dont like. You must be a good servant of Allah (SWT) to be considered a good man.


Wassalaam

[zereshk]

Dear all,

Personally, I feel happy that Omar was assasinated. It doesnt really matter who this abu lulu guy was.

My reasons:

"After Abu Bakr obtained Bay'at from the people (by sword and force), he sent Omar, Khaled ebne Waleed, Abu Obaydeh Jarraah, and a bunch of the other monaafgheen to Ali and Fatimah's house to get their Bay'at for Abu Bakr. Omar put firewood around the house. This is the same house that the Prophet  pbuh had stood on its doorway and said: Assalamu alaikum yaa ahla baytel nubuwwah! (Salam to you oh household of Nabuwwah) and never entered the house without permission of Ali/Fatemah.

Omar set the house on fire. Pregnant Fatemah rushed to the door to block Omar and his gang. But Omar hit and pressed Fatimah so hard against the door that Fatimah's son became seqt (died in her) and  the door's nail penetrated inside Fatemah's chest.

Fatemah cried: Oh Father! yaa rasulullah! See what misery (Museebat) the son of Khataab and the son of Abi Ghahaafah (Abu Bakr) have inflicted unto us- your progeny!  

Omar ordered his men to beat Fatimah and thus she became majrooh."

Sunni references that narrate similar versions of the above account:

1. Masnad of Ahmad Hanbal vol3/259
2. Ensaab ul Ashraaf of Balaazheri 586/1
3. al'aqd ul fareed 13/5
4. Melal wa Nahl of Shahrestaani 57/1
5. Ethbaat ul Wathiyaah of Al Mas'udi 123/
6. Alwaafi belwafeeyaat 347/5
7. lesaan ul mizaan 268/1 (mentions that Omar kicked Fatimah so hard that baby Muhsen was killed inside her womb)  
8. Al Imaamat wal Siyaasat Ebne Qutaybeh 19-20/1

Fatimah shortly after died while she was severely bitter and angry (Ghadhab) with Omar and Abu Bakr.

Sunni references mentioning this:

1. Sharh of Ebne Abi al Hadeed 50/6
2. Saheeh Al bukhaari 5th book /2
3. Masnad of Ahmad Hanbal 6/1
4. Sunan of Bayhaqi 300/6
5. Tabaqaat of Ebne Sa'd 18/8
6. Saheeh of Termedhi vol1  baab of maa jaa'a fee tarkate rasoolullah.

And finally consider the Hadith that says:

"Allah will be happy (yardhaa) when Fatimah is happy and will be bitter and angry (yagh-dhebo) when Fatimah is bitter."

Sunni ref:

1. Mustadrak Haakem 153/3
2. Asad ul Ghaabah  of Ebne Atheer 522/5
3. Esaabah of Ebne Hajar 159/8
4. tahzeeb al tahzheeb 441/12
5. Kenz ul Emaal of Muttaqi 111/7
6. Dhahabi in mizaan ul e'tedaal 72/2

      

I hope I didnt make any mistakes in copying down the numbers.

Edited by zereshk, 11 January 2003 - 04:58 PM.

[salmany]

sallam

Can you please site some more sources of how Hazrat Fatima was pregnant during the time? And if umar ordered people to beat her. Ive searched al-islam.org and i have not found anything like this. Also sunni references that narrate similar versions...tell me sunni versions that narrate exactly this particular version. Didnt any members of the ahly bait or their supporters help fatima knowing she was supposedly pregnant?


sallam

[zereshk]

salam,

1. All sources that I cited in my last post are Sunni. The 20 sources I cited above are all that I have at this moment. I do not know of any "more" sources.

2. About the janeen of Hadhrat Fatimah, in the first batch of links, I am pretty sure that sources 4,5,6, and 7 clearly mention her pregnancy. About the beating, I translated it directly.

3. The reason al-islam.org does not have these things as you claim can have two reasons:

a. I took the information posted in my last post directly out of a book at my disposal which I picked up during my last trip to Mash-had. I translated the passages myself. The book was written by Mughaatel ebne Atiyah during the 11th century (in Arabic) and is about a Sunni-Shia debate that took place in the court of the Seljuqian Sultan Malekshah. Al-Islam.org is not the ultimate source of info. One must look further.

b. Many Shias are reluctant to mention these things, even though they know it. Why withhold? Because to them Islamic unity is far more important than speaking out the ugly truth. Even Khomeini said "yaa ayyohal moslemoon...ettahedoo ettahedoo". However, once they discover and experience the ugly side of their sunni "brothers", like me, they suddenly come to their senses.

[salmany]

sallam

ill look up more info on this particular topic and then give an answer .

sallam

[salmany]

sallam

well a comment and a question. If abu lulu was a good shia which some shias beleive does that mean salman farsi   ...abhu dhar   ...etc were not good shias because they didnt advocate the killing of umar or try and attempt it?

Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment.  (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy.  (The Noble Quran, 25:68-69)"  


O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman.  But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord.  After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.  (The Noble Quran, 2:178)"


Accordig to the above verse did abu lulu (LA) have the permission or the right to kill Umar   ?


The (selfish) soul of the other Led him to the murder Of his brother:  he murdered Him, and became (himself) One of the lost ones. (Quran)

sallam

[Muhammed Ali]

you will find the angry article on www.answering-ansar.org

[salmany]

sallam

angry article??

[zereshk]

To me, it is insignificant whether or not Abu Lu Lu was a shia or not.

I consider Omar a "Al-Haakem o Zhaalem" (evil ruler). Therefore it does not matter to me who killed him, and therefore your question is irrelevant.

Omar was killed? One "sharr" less for the world. Alhamdolellah.  

That is my honest opinion.

If I had a time machine, Id go back and kill him myself for murdering Fatimah and insulting Ali.

[salmany]

sallam

then you wouldve gone directly against the Quran    so you would have ruined ur own self and proven that in reality you are not the followers of the ahly bait. Like i said none of the other " shia" did it. Why not?

sallam

Edited by salmany, 12 January 2003 - 10:14 PM.

[zereshk]

Quote

then you wouldve gone directly against the Quran.

No. I wouldnt. The Koran doesnt advocate the murderer of the prophet's daughter to become Khalifah.

I would have Qisaased Omar.

Quote

Like i said none of the other " shia" did it. Why not?

Thats a very shallow question. So Ill give a shallow answer:

Because they knew Omar would be frying in jahannam anyway.

[salmany]

sallam


hehe ...ok you would have "Qissased" umar? Why didnt Hazrat Ali    qisas umar? its odd isnt it...maybe its cause Umar    never did kill fatimah? have you ever read the hadiths...narrated by Aisha    that hazrat Fatima    once entered upon the Prophet  pbuh  and the prophet  pbuh whispered something into her ear that made her cry and then something else that made her laugh. Hazrat Aisha asked how is it that you laugh and cry at the same time. Fatima    replied. The holy prophet  pbuh  said Gabriel used to recite the Quran to me once and this year he recited it twice (meaning he would pass away soon ) . That made me cry. Then he said but you will be the first one to join me. that made me smile.

sallam

[zereshk]

Quote

Why didnt Hazrat Ali  qisas umar?

I dont know. Maybe he couldnt (didnt have the power). For example, while Omar was assaulting Ali's house...

"...they removed 'Ali from his home by force and brought him before Abu Bakr, and said Give him bayya. Umar said:
By Allah, who alone is worthy of worship, I shall otherwise strike off your neck."

Abu Muhammad Abdullah bin Muslim bin Qutaybah in Al Imama wa al Siyasa. pages 18-28

Ibne Qutaibah is one of the most greatest Sunni scholars of all time, as Shams al Hind Allamah Shibli Numani al Hanafi praised him in al Faruq Volume 1 page 7.

Therefore you cannot dispute this Hadith. It is Sunni reference.

Maybe Ali wanted to, but Omar was killed before he had the chance to do so.

Maybe Ali feared a blood bath against his followers ordered by the Caliphs if he tried to do Qisaas.

And a 100 other maybes.

Quote

maybe its cause Umar  never did kill fatimah?

I think that we have already proven this with Sunni Hadiths beyond doubt. I brought you 8 hadiths in which the word "Siqt i Janeen" has specifically been mentioned. And we all know that Omar was in command there.

I actually gave you 20 hadith.

ALL SUNNI hadith.

And you deny.

If you cannot accept this fact, that is your problem.

You may keep questioning your own hadiths and making excuses til Qiyaamah. But the facts will never change.

Edited by zereshk, 12 January 2003 - 11:11 PM.

[salmany]

sallam

Brothe rlike i said it depends not if its a sunni hadiths. It depends on which book it came from and who narrated it and through what isnad. I can show you the most disgusting shia hadiths ever and if you agree to accept those by just seeing that it is a shia source i will accept this. There have been thousands of sunnis scholars etc. and maybe Ali feared? what now Ali is fearful (naudubillah) . If he was actually Allahs appointed imam why would he have to worry that his followers would be killed?

sallam

[zereshk]

Quote

It depends on which book it came from and who narrated it and through what isnad.

It seems you did not pay attention to my post. <_<

Shams al Hind Allamah Shibli Numani al Hanafi praised Ebne Qutaibah in al Faruq Volume 1 pag 7 as follows:

"...The fame and authority of this writer are unchallenged. Even the traditionalists are unanimous as to his integrity and trustworthiness."

Sunni scholars are saying the hadiths I have brought u are as authentic as ever, you are saying they are not. Jallal Khaaliq.

Quote

and maybe Ali feared? what now Ali  is fearful (naudubillah)

<_<

OK. let me rephrase that, so that you wont be able to play with words again:

"Maybe Ali knew that if he tried to do Qisaas while people like Omar and Abubakr are running the wole Ummah (the military, appointing governors, etc)  and have absolute power to do Zhulm and jinaayat, they would start killing Ali's followers (hence thousands of innocent people) if he attempted a Qisaas on Omar's life.

Better?

Quote

If he was actually Allahs appointed imam why would he have to worry that his followers would be killed?

Thats like saying "why would mohammad do muhaajerat and order his followers to go to Madinah (when Quraish was killing all of them)"? or..."Why did he keep Islam secret for 3 years before going public about Islam?"  Why would he have to worry that his followers would be killed?

Just because he was Allah's appointed Imam doesnt mean that Allah will protect every single one of his followers from Omar's sword of injustice. Just because he was Allah's appointed Imam doesnt mean he did not have any responsibilities.

[salmany]

sallam

good point...

[zereshk]

Salmany,

I have to go. School starts tomorrow.

Sorry if I sound a bit angry. I shouldnt. I apologize.

[Zanadine]

Zareen, on 07 January 2003 - 12:59 AM, said:

Wow..!! This is getting interesting. So basically Abu Lulu was unhappy with Umar and he killed him to exact his revenge.

Is this the only version of story?

I think I have heard few pro-Sunni people says that Abu Lulu was a Persian and Shia and he murdered the caliph because the caliph usurped Imam Ali’s right.

And I have heard few Shias praising Abu Lulu Actions.

I think he went too far by murdering Umar Al Khattab?

I don’t know everything about this incident. Still awaiting few more response ..if someone has something more to add.

  What Umar ibn Khattab was involved in unjust battles..  his war was not Jihad.. by this he gave Islam a bad name and tried to justify his terotorial expansion as Islamic Jihad.. which was infact  ANTI ISLAM.. and the concept of  not self defence (jihad).  

he invaded  Egypt, Rome, and Persia unjustly.   the Persian Feroz (abu lulua)  was enslaved and thousands of  innocent persian children were taken captives .. this was clearly unjust.   First of all your invading a country unjustly.. Similar to what Saddam did .. (unjustly attacked and invaded Iran in 1980, then Kuwait in 1992).  Abu Luloa (feroz)  was a real man..  He is a hero who killed the unjust man umar ibn Khattab..  and enslaving innocent persian children..

he did convert to Islam..  but  regardless  it was a good action ...   May Allah's peace and blessing be upon Feroz and make him enter paradise.    Umar is probably the most evil person who ever lived in the entire history of mankind.   he was vicious and was in the habit of continues justifying of sins and wrong doings.   May the curse of Allah be upon Umar who tried to give the Prophet and Islam a bad name by distorting the biography of the Prophet (S) and distorting the meaning of Jihad and misleading millions and millions of Muslims until today...  still continues to mislead masses..  If you read his sayings and speeches..   they are worthless..  barely any wisdom in it.  and if you even find a bit wisdom.. it belongs to someone else and attributed to umar.  

Zanadine.

[14infallibles]

^ Nice job reviving a 7-year old thread

[Maula Dha Mallang]

^^ innit

abu lulu was and is a complete legend. dont care what faith he might or might not have been, he did humanity a favour. May he earn bibi paaks (sa) duas.

[89jghur32]

May Allah curse the killer of Sayedna Umar ibn al-Khattab .